Amended General Rule BATTERY SAFETY

[bretts]

My appologies if this is a double post (i have done a quick search), but I've just been sent this.

Amended General Rule BATTERY SAFETY

19/11/2007

This amended rule is to be included in the BRCA general rules with immediate effect.

The addition wording to rule 4.

Safety in General Rules to read.

"In the interest of safety, any battery packs(s) carried on a model car, must be able to be disconnected
quickly without the use of tools in an emergency. Direct soldering is not allowed"

The above rule which has been agreed by a postal vote to all Executive Committee Members and is of a
safety issue will take immediate effect

Signed
Mick Hill
BRCA Secretary

http://www.brca.org/BRCA/News/Amended%20General%20Rule%20BATTERY%20SAFETY.htm

[glypo]

Certainly seems fair enough, most connectors like Deans, Corally and Power Poles have virtually no resistance so shouldn't affect anyone and will increase safety :)

[ashleyb4]

thats goodnews all inthe nameof safety :)

Carl better get soem corrallys.;)

A

[bert digler]

thats goodnews all inthe nameof safety :)

Carl better get soem corrallys.;)

A

it shocks me that this rule was not enforced from day one of the brca or was it an issue never raised before i remember 1200sc,s bursting into flames so its not a recent problem :D

[Doomanic]

That's me not racing at the weekend then.:mad:

Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me.
I have seen cells that exploded when not plugged in so connectors will make little difference.
If the cells are looking like they are about to explode then I'm not going anywhere near them, I certainly wouldn't even entertain the notion of getting my hands close enough to unplug them!:o

In my experience, connectors are only useful as a safety measure when a speedo goes tits up.

[Andrew Simpson]

err i thought everyone used connectors anyway??!!

[xx4-nutter]

dom u iant racing cos of that ?

you must have some corallys kicking around ?

[Doomanic]

I do, but I doubt I can find the time.
My brushless speedo is at a mate's house and I won't get it back until Sunday morning and I may need to rewire it anyway.
I also need to change my batteries to fit into my X-5.

It was looking decidedly dodgy before, even worse now.:(

Besides, if it rains I'll be in the van, sulking!:D

[RogerM]

Dom,

I'll do your cells for you mate ...... you can glue my tires ... that way both of us should get to finish a race!!!! ;)

[PaulRotheram]

That's me not racing at the weekend then.:mad:

Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me.
I have seen cells that exploded when not plugged in so connectors will make little difference.
If the cells are looking like they are about to explode then I'm not going anywhere near them, I certainly wouldn't even entertain the notion of getting my hands close enough to unplug them!:o

In my experience, connectors are only useful as a safety measure when a speedo goes tits up.

I think this is for safety reasons, for which you said - when a car is on fire, or a problem with the car occurs.. esc failure, battery failure etc.

I think this is a great move, and i've said many a times.. if a car comes to me which cant be stopped due to soldered wires, it'l be getting chucked away from me.

[bert digler]

I think this is for safety reasons, for which you said - when a car is on fire, or a problem with the car occurs.. esc failure, battery failure etc.

I think this is a great move, and i've said many a times.. if a car comes to me which cant be stopped due to soldered wires, it'l be getting chucked away from me.

ive never soldered direct no point really also yes you can isolate a car with plugs a like wise if it is soldered turn it on its roof and let it burn i like my fingers:rolleyes:

[ashleyb4]

but dom it is also good as lots of people will want to buy connectors ;)

A

[losixxx]

I also need to change my batteries to fit into my X-5.




thought you'd learnt your lesson first time round!:D mind you suppose it was easier than trying to salvage your xx4;)

[MattW]

To be fair, this is more aimed at ESC/Motor failures, as an exploding cell has it's own disconnection method!! Even a fried ESC usually melts the solder off the soldering posts/wires.

It's a little frustrating personally, as i do solder cells in. At the end of the day though, it doesn't make a real difference.

[bigred5765]

thats goodnews all inthe nameof safety :)

Carl better get soem corrallys.;)

A

then i guess we will buy one set of deans add them inline
so it can be unpluged, but still solder to cells,

[glypo]

It's a little frustrating personally, as i do solder cells in. At the end of the day though, it doesn't make a real difference.

It does make a difference. Fair enough I understand that this rule may not protect against batteries exploding, but it protects against anything else. If a car had something smoking from it, safest bet it to unplug the battery and leave it alone to cool down before inspecting. Simply not possible with direct soldered battery. I have had personally some IB4200 problems, where one or two of the cells in the battery started venting very loudly. Fortunately a marshal noticed this (I didn't!) and unplugged the car. If I had no plugs, would have made that impossible.

Also connectors will save everyone time, simple to connect and disconnect battery. Direct soldering really helps so little in terms of resistance advantage, as connectors are so effcient anyway. Not sure what the problem really is? Surely anything in the name of safety is worth while, as if anything is deemed unsafe the hobby will start to disappear.

[Doomanic]

thought you'd learnt your lesson first time round!:D mind you suppose it was easier than trying to salvage your xx4;)

Nope, and yes.:(:D

Direct soldering really helps so little in terms of resistance advantage, as connectors are so effcient anyway. Not sure what the problem really is?I direct solder as it removes the risk of cells coming accidently unplugged, which was a real problem for me when using Corally connectors.
It looks like Shrek has hit the nail on the head with a solution though, I will fit a Deans connector inline and still solder to the cells. As an added bonus, it will make it easier to swap the speedo between cars.

[Col]

then i guess we will buy one set of deans add them inline
so it can be unpluged, but still solder to cells,


I will fit a Deans connector inline and still solder to the cells

Never in my life have I heard anything more ridiculous! 2 "respected" members of our hobby are going to cut their speedo wire, solder in some deans-corrallys and then not bother to use the nice shiney new conector, just so you can solder direct onto cells? How pathetic

[mark christopher]

Never in my life have I heard anything more ridiculous! 2 "respected" members of our hobby are going to cut their speedo wire, solder in some deans-corrallys and then not bother to use the nice shiney new conector, just so you can solder direct onto cells? How pathetic
got to agree why put a connecter in and then still not use it:confused:

[ben]

Just out of interest what is to be gained by soldering your cells in anyway? Because i havent had a corally fall out before.

lil ben

[vader]

It makes people think you're a pro!!! only joking. A solder joint has lower resistance than a connector, that's why most poeple solder motors in too. In the good old days we used RS connectors on the motor wires.


Touring Car poeple solder batteries in alot too. So do people in the States

DV

[jimmy]

If you solder the cells, you have no corally to fall out in the first place I guess. Too much like hard work for me tho. I've seen many corallys fall out over the years, or various connectors desolder due to poor connection.
When people quote the 'less resistance than wire' thing they are refering to a new connector- and you only use a new connector once, after that it degrades gradually.

[bigred5765]

Never in my life have I heard anything more ridiculous! 2 "respected" members of our hobby are going to cut their speedo wire, solder in some deans-corrallys and then not bother to use the nice shiney new conector, just so you can solder direct onto cells? How pathetic

that would be because we prefer to solder its better, it just is,
we to had probs with connectors coming of, since we started to solder, we never had a problem also most of the problems with speedos going bang apart from the one at teeside, have all had inline connectors,when you have been racing for over 18 years nick you can call me pathetic, other wise dont bother,i forgot more then ull ever know

[Jonny_H]

Erm... how is it 'better' to keep re-making the same solder joint when you also have a connector in the wire?

I can see there's an argument for direct soldering and not having any connectors - but once there's a connector fitted, I can't understand why you'd solder instead of using it!

[Doomanic]

I solder my cells in because I was fed up of Corally connectors coming unplugged. I tried Deans used in the conventional manner but just couldn't get the car tidy enough for my liking.

By using a Deans connector where it won't get in the way I can comply with the BRCA's (frankly ridiculous) new rule (can they do that without polling the members?) and keep my wiring as I like it.

[losixxx]

I solder my cells in because I was fed up of Corally connectors coming unplugged. I tried Deans used in the conventional manner but just couldn't get the car tidy enough for my liking.

By using a Deans connector where it won't get in the way I can comply with the BRCA's (frankly ridiculous) new rule (can they do that without polling the members?) and keep my wiring as I like it.

they do poll the members, thats how there elected to run the section! can you imagine if they had to ask every time there was a question it would make a mokery of the committee!...unfortunatly not every rule make every person happy, you just have to live with it..
never had a problem with my corally's although i do change the male end every season. not exactly bank breaking

[Northy]

I think anything can be brought in under the grounds of safety, and righly so.

G

[neiloliver]

Soldering to the cells seems a bit daft to me.. I have had corallys come out during a bad crash so I now cable tie the wires to the battery strap on the B4 during Nationals and regionals, this prevents any back/forward movement.. it seemed easier to do this than learning not to crash...

N

[MattW]

Carl, that is actually good thinking on the deans connector - really hadn't thought of that one!!

[glypo]

I can't believe people are complaining about a safety rule. If an event occured and someone perhaps got injured, there would be proof that the issue was considered and acted on. Or of course we could just ignore safety and when something does go wrong, the hobby goes with it.

I've never had a Corally unplug, in-fact I find it quite difficult to unplug them sometimes as they are tight fit. I simply replace a connector if ever it came loose fitting (which has never really happened to me). As I have said before connector resistance really isn't an issue. I done run tests using the same ESC/Motor. One config was direct solder, one was Deans, and the other Power Poles....... and under current load there is literally no measurable difference between either. I didn't run Corally connectors at the time (I only started using Corally this year when I got into touring car over summer), but I assume that would be same story.

In fact in years of RC I can only think of one connector related problem. 13/14 years ago my brother decided to put a Reedy 14x4 (very quick for then) in his Tamiya Super Sabre. Lets just say the Tamiya plugs weren't up to the task and the Super Sabre became a molten sculpture. But seriously, plugs don't come de-soldered if they are properly soldered in first place, and even with deterioration over time their resistance is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Good sensible rule by BRCA I say.

[andy110m]

For me I couldn't care less about the resistance, the reason I direct solder is my cells have to fit in 3 cars. Direct soldering is the best way of doing this, otherwise I'd have to move the corrally tube connector on the cells dependant on which car I was running.

I think Carl's idea is fantastic and will be using that method.

[bigred5765]

every time you plug and unplug a connector in, it degrades slightly,the only thing that keeps that connection is a piece of metal under tension, (IE spring) which sparks every time you connect it, under movement of the car i GUESS, and i say guess because i don't know,but will lead to the eventual fail of this connector,and i would imagine cause heat build up,adding to the failures we have seen this year,I do see why this rule has been brought in,safety issues, but i cant see how people think not soldering is better,
i would ask the question why do a lot of the top racers and big guns out there do this, and have almost always done this,I'm my case i started to do it because we lost a few races because of the battery connectors coming unplugged,i also must admit we haven't lost a single speedo since we started doing this, not so when i used connectors,

[ben]

But when you are soldering your cells in what happens if your speedo for example blows and you cant unplug your battery. What is the marshall supposed to do if they cant unplug it?

lil ben

[AndyM]

and same if your batts start venting. he cant unplug it, so it may just blow up infront of him. now im no expert, but surely that would hurt!

[ashleyb4]

But that is carls point if he puts a pair of eans line he can unplug it but he can still solder hsi cells so if it does go pop bang wizzzzzz it cna still be unplugged and its legal.

HIGH FIVE LIL BEN!!!!


A

[mark christopher]

But when you are soldering your cells in what happens if your speedo for example blows and you cant unplug your battery. What is the marshall supposed to do if they cant unplug it?

lil ben
put it on the floor and pi55 on it

[josh_smaxx]

Wear a LiPo sack over your head :D

[ashleyb4]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


A

[ben]

I think marks point is the best one. lol.

err ok then Ash high five.

lil ben

[mattym0310]

But that is carls point if he puts a pair of eans line he can unplug it but he can still solder hsi cells so if it does go pop bang wizzzzzz it cna still be unplugged and its legal.

but mr latham wudnt be very happy if some1 unplugs his deans because they could degrade slightly :o o gosh.. its the end of the world!! noooooo.

c'mon everyone, think of marshalls safety and stop just thinking about yourself. i would love some1 to keep soldering their cells in and for their car to go bang, so you can look at the black heap of ash on the floor. maybe that will teach you a lesson??

i have only had problems with old corallys. if you buy new ones, male and female from the same supplier.. i have never had a problem with this.

[ben]

Got to agree with you matt.

lil ben

[rcracer]

Safety first end of :), what hate aswell is people who rev the bollocks off there car when its upside down waiting for the marshall to turn it over :mad: if this happens to me i dont touch it and if they shout abuse at me they get the "F" WORD :D

[ben]

Yeh i hate that aswell. I sometimes rev my car but not when the marshall is about to pick it up.

lil ben

[mattym0310]

yeh. me2. i rev it once maybe if no martials are paying attention to it. i never shout as if i crash it was my fault. [ive learnt that through a lot of experience :D]

[ben]

Yeh you dont shout at the marshalls. You just argue with your brother on the rostrum lol.

lil ben

[mattym0310]

yeh i no! god its fun.its nice to have some1 to blame :)

[ben]

lol

lil ben

[dave p hall]

I solder my cells in because I was fed up of Corally connectors coming unplugged. I tried Deans used in the conventional manner but just couldn't get the car tidy enough for my liking.

By using a Deans connector where it won't get in the way I can comply with the BRCA's (frankly ridiculous) new rule (can they do that without polling the members?) and keep my wiring as I like it.

all you have to do with male corallys is to prise the metal back with a thin screw driver,when it becomes a slack fit in the female tubes,also if wiring to the packs is strained it causes them to unplug as well.i find they work just fine:D

[Doomanic]

I'm happy that so many people love their Corally connectors, good for you.;)
I have no confidence in them and no safety rule will ever change that.

As I have said, I will going down the Deans route as suggested by Shrek so I can continue to solder my cells in, have a tidy car and comply with the new rule.

One thing that should not be forgotten is that this rule does not address the real problem, that of exploding cells.
IMHO, the only way to reduce the risk to all racers is to ban all cells from the effected batches.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!:D

[mattym0310]

as suggested by Shrek

HAHA! :D:p

[RogerM]

Whilst I understand the reasons why people like to direct solder, and are entitled to their opinions as we all are, these new cells scare me!!!! If a car was to arrive at my marshal point with an "electrical issue" and I could not disconect it by convensional means I might well feel I have to disconect it using a steel toe cap boot or launch it off track (used to be able to throw a rugby ball most of the width of the field ... sure I could get a car clear of the track!).

Surely if your going to have a deans connector anywhere you could run the wires from the cells to that position and use the connector at that position to keep the car tidy. As for connectors degrading well, whilst this is true I think that even the likes of Cragg, Masami and the rest of the regular worlds A crew would struggle to notice with modern equipment ... after all we are all limiting on the speedos as we have more power than we can possibly ever use anyway!!

I am 100% in favour of the rule and can see no sensible arguement against it, although I can understand some people not liking it.

As for reving as a marshal grabs the car it is simple .... don't pick it up or if you have drop it!!! Simple as that, not worth loosing a finger for even if they are your best mate and on the road to some major title......

[RogerM]

Is there not some sort of regulation that could be introduced to prevent cells being charged at 1,000,000 amps and limit to 1C or so????? Not sure how you'd enforce it, maybe a pit based official doing random checks on charging .... penalty for breaking the rule being exclusion from the meeting ... that risk would put msot people off "taking a chance". Just a thought?

If somebody as randomly disorganised as myself can manage to get their cells charged in time at less than 1C the sensible, organised people should have no problems!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[RogerM]

Cripes .... jsut chatting to a mate on MSN and he's had a pack of GPs go pop on him!!!!!

Going to make a blast cabinet to charge in I think ... LOL

[Doomanic]

Nice edit, what happened to your original post Rog?:confused:

[RogerM]

Nice edit, what happened to your original post Rog?:confused:

Original post???

I've edited a couple of the recent ones in this thread as I'd made a few gramatical errors, other than that all looks well???

[Doomanic]

What happened to this one then?:confused:

RogerM has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Amended General Rule BATTERY SAFETY - in the Electrics forum of oOple.com Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6451&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Is there not some sort of regulation that could be introduced to prevent cells being charged at 1,000,000 amps and limit to 1C or so????? Not sure how you'd enforce it, maybe a pit based official doing random checks on charging .... penalty for breaking the rule being exclusion from the meeting ... that risk would put msot people off "taking a chance". Just a thought?

If somebody as randomly disorganised as myself can manage to get their cells charged in time at less than 1C the sensible, organised people should have no problems!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
***************

[DCM]

hmmmm, the best way, for performance, is to solder the wire directly to the cell.... then the next best thing is to solder directly to a battery bar soldered to the cell. after that, you have to choose which connector is best for you. they have to be gold plated, this gives a good connection and a reasonable corrosion free surface.

Like Jim said though, once used, the connection loosens a little, but the effect is so SO minimal that it would be hard to detect. Corally allow for very neat wiring, and if done right, you can make it pretty safe that you don't reverse connect your cells. Deans on the other hand offer secure connection which can't be reverse connected, the downside is, they lead to more messy wiring job.

On the plus side of connectors, if there is an electronic issue with your car, the power source can be disconnected quickly and safely, or in a big accident, the connection will let go before it rips the wire out of your ESC.

As for connectors making it safer and less prone for cells exploding... lot of tosh if you ask me.

[PaulRotheram]

What happened to this one then?:confused:

looks the same as post #52 to me?

[Doomanic]

looks the same as post #52 to me?

That's really weird!

That didn't show up before....:confused:

[PaulRotheram]

sometimes the cookies dont update.. ive had it happen to me a few times and replying to stuff thats been answered which i couldnt see :(

[andy110m]

Just got my cars sorted/legal for racing tomorrow. All I have done is put a corrally connector inline in the positive input wire.

I can now carry on direct soldering and conform with the rules. If any problems occur a simple tug on the wires and the connector will break the circuit. Lovely job.

[Doomanic]

What's the betting that a connector on only one wire isn't good enough......:mad:

[RogerM]

Yeah as Paul says, Post #52 is still there.

I was just thinking out loud really. It's possibly a better short term sollution than banning the most popular cell out there and putting some people in the position of not being able to race for months whilst they save up for some new ones!

In full size motor racing, no matter what type, there has to be a kill switch for the electrics. Sometimes they are physical man opperated switches, sometimes they are automatic switches (inertia switches to cover in the event of a big impact and the driver being knocked out) and sometimes it's radio opperated (as in monster trucks for example). The reason for these is mainly to safe guard the people not the equipment.
I personally think it is crazy that people have been allowed to direct solder for so long. Doom, do you remember my suprise when I found out you where doing that???

As I said I understand why people might be of a different point of view.

[Col]

Not wishing to cause any more problems here, but... is direct soldering helping IB's to explode due to constant heat being applied to the battery from soldering/unsoldering? My batteries have always said not to do this.
(genuine question by the way - I'm curious to what people think)

[mole2k]

That might be an issue with some of the more inexperienced people soldering in cells but anybody who's done it a few times should be fit to get the wire on quick enough so the heat transfer to the actual cell is minimal.

Personally I've used corallys for years and only had a single failure near when I started and that was bad soldering on my behalf. I did switch over to deans plugs after shorting a corally on the chassis the first time i put a pack in my xxx-4.

I can see the arguement for soldering to cells as well as the arguement against, personally i've never done it because im too lazy and the extra performance even back a fair few years ago wasnt worth it as I was loosing more time in my driving that a slight increase in wiring efficiency would afford me.

I would think an inline single corally on the positive or both wires connected inline with deans should be ample as long as there is sufficient movement to dissconnect them. I would fear that they wouldnt allow just the connection to be broken on the positive as people tend to be irrational about stuff like that at times :)

[Doomanic]

Not wishing to cause any more problems here, but... is direct soldering helping IB's to explode due to constant heat being applied to the battery from soldering/unsoldering? My batteries have always said not to do this.
(genuine question by the way - I'm curious to what people think)

I think you will find that the vast majority actually solder to a battery bar, not directly to the cell itself.

Incidently, on all the exploded packs I have actually seen first hand it was the middle cell of three in a saddle that went pop.

[DCM]

in a pure race enviroment, and if I had the time, I would solder too, but with time precious and four cars to look after, connectors are far more effective. Using connectors are NOT going to stop cells exploding.... ensuring people charge and store their cells correctly will be a bennefit.

I just built up five packs, and after I went through the cells with a multimeter, I found some had passed storage well, others lost a lot of voltage, so the first charge up to 1000mAh was done at 2A, then equalised down before the first full 1C charge.

[SlowOne]

Like the 'Corally-in-the-line' solution, easy to tug off. However, one problem with all of this is the differing solutions - how would I know what to tug/unplug/etc. when confronted with all your different cars?

It's been discussed at our meetings, to general approval. However, how close would I go to a smoking Off-Road or 12th car where I knew I had to lift the shell and look under it to find the plug? It's easier in open TC shells and chassis', but tucked under a B4 body... RogerM's right about full-size racing, and all their cut-out switches are external and clearly labelled.

It has crossed my mind to marshall with a pair of side cutters in my pocket, and snip the first power wire I found if the incident needed a quick power disconnection! Nonetheless, as a necessary measure to increase safety, let's get on with it.

I appreciate that everyone has a view, and they're not all the same. Nonetheless, if we (the collective BRCA 'we') don't do something that is seen to respond to recent issues, then it will take only one public accident distorted by the press, and the 'powers-that-be', for the H&S nannys to come down on us like a ton of bricks. Make this work, or someone else may make something far less acceptable work for us.

[RogerM]

Might have to suggest that there is some sort of sticker marker on the body adjacent to the disconnection point.....