Another British car maker in administration

[bodgit]

I remember Clarkson saying on top gear a while back something like
"in 1968 we only imported 63 cars yes just 63".
Now another British maker Bristol (who would not let top gear have any of their cars for testing) who make the 225mph Bristol Fighter are about to go under.
Is there anything left in this country that is home made ? Looking around my house today apart from the building itself most things are foriegn made.
http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/photos.aspx?cp-documentid=156369141

[SlowOne]

Home made...

Ford was owned by Ford of America. Vauxhall was owned by General Motors. Rootes Group was owned by Chrysler. For many years Ford owned Jaguar and Aston Martin. British Leyland, then Rover, was propped up by making variations of Honda models all designed, and their build lines installed by, Honda technicians. And all this has been going on since the 1970s. At which point did we have a home-made car industry since the 1950s?

Toyota make cars and engines in the UK, Honda and Nissan make cars. They export more cars now than Ford (who make no cars in the UK today) Vauxhall and Rootes combined in the 1970s. Set that against the likes of Bombardier, Messier Dowty, BAe, Airbus, Rolls-Royce and GKN who are all home-grown companies with a global reach leading their fields - made in Britain. Every smart 'phone as a British designed chip in it, and our motor racing companies dominate every race series in the world with their engines, transmissions and chassis.

Yes, looking around you house might be depressing, but that's not what UK plc is about any more. We stopped being the factory of the world in the 1920s. Today we are the cottage industry of the World, with very few people able to do what we do in the sort of markets described above.

Since the Thatcher Government of 1979, this country has been set on a path that allows service and financial industries to power the economy. As a result, all our utilities are owned by foreign companies, most of our financial institutions likewise, and large chunks of our infrastructure too. We have elected Governments that deliberately follow of policy of ensuring it is not-home-made. And that's worked out so well hasn't it??!!!

Losing Bristol is no surprise, and it has happened before. To me it is less sad than inevitable. There's precious little left that is made here compared to 40 years ago, but that's what we voted for and that's what we got. I'm glad we still have what we have, but I am under no illusion that anything will change while people buy with their wallets and vote with the masses. But I'd still rather live here than anywhere else in the World. It's life...

[DCM]

Well, I don't think it was a political whim, the British Layland period was beset by strikes and 'work to rule' and basically they went from excellence to dross very fast, with everything that went on, and the same could be said by a lot of engineering. The Unions wouldn't allow the companies to streamline and develop to keep with the imports, so, in effect, shot themselves in the foot, made themselves lame and died. Yes, the Government didn't help, but nor did they help themselves.

[Welshy40]

Unions ruined this country and is the very reason why companies have the work done abroad as the unions dont exist. Great news for the companies and great that the idiots who started the strikes are now jobless and i am happy for that. They ruined the uk manufacturing. Bristol relyed on the real rich to buy but didnt think ahead and design a cheaper product. They werent that good anyway so quite surprised they lasted that long. They only had one dealer in london and only let in certain clientel so no sympathies.

[TheReferee]

Unions ruined this country and is the very reason why companies have the work done abroad as the unions dont exist. Great news for the companies and great that the idiots who started the strikes are now jobless and i am happy for that. They ruined the uk manufacturing. Bristol relyed on the real rich to buy but didnt think ahead and design a cheaper product. They werent that good anyway so quite surprised they lasted that long. They only had one dealer in london and only let in certain clientel so no sympathies.

of course prior to unions workers rights were proteted by what?, minimum wage, a safe work place, unscrupulous employers didn't exist of course and always had the care of the workforce at heart. companies go overseas because labour cost are cheaper and there is less regulation. children sewing footballs together comes to mind, profit comes first for companies and your health and well being come a long way down the list, lets be honest companies do what is legally required of them towards the workforce and no more.

[chrispattinson]

I'd like to echo "Slowones" thoughts.

The british motor industry is booming.

I work within the industry for a Nissan tier 1 supplier. The OEMs might not be british in name, but the Tier N suppliers and the assembly plants in this country are having a very good start to 2011.

[Rebelrc]

Our world leading ship building went that way as well.
Lots of strikes
But we still make nuclear subs at barrow-in-Furness yay.....it's not enough though is it?

[Bagman]

I would say that other countries have unions and higher wages. Germany and Japan stand out a bit there. France is about the same, Volvo haven't done too badly in Sweden. All of these countries have a much higher level of government support of unions and similar or higher labour costs. Britain often made a decent car, sometimes with great ideas and potentially ground breaking advances (they also had a fair share of dogs too). They released these cars and sat back, very little development and very little reinvestment in production technology. In the early and mid 90's I worked in Rover/Vauxhall/Ford/RR/Nissan and saw the different styles. Going into Rover was stepping back in time. It was pretty shocking from a production point of view in comparison with the others. This carried over into the staff attitude (not really a British thing as it was better in the other plants). It was always going to slowly die, it was written on the wall ever since BMW bailed. I don't want to use BMW as an example but their cars are mostly made in Bavaria (not cheap) in a factory I regularly drive past. The ongoing investments there are staggering. New halls (all crammed with solar panels on top), lots of disguised development cars on the local roads, an obvious air of professionalism and you can just see and feel the difference. It's not (just) the unions that killed our domestic car industry it's blinkered management that failed to constantly improve and and change to a different kind of motor industry. I'm in manufacturing and believe that it is dying off in the UK (there are still many good, successful firms out there but now there are fewer household names), it's not so much about salaries and cheaper labour costs abroad especially now with an exchange rate that should be a dream to an exporter. It's not about the unions now as the British unions are now in a much weaker position than most foreign countries. Production firms that don't have a logical investment policy will get left behind I won't mourn them as they deserve to go under and not get propped up.

[peetbee]

In terms of the British car industry, I believe it was a combination of short sighted management and the unions which led to it's demise.
That companies like Honda and Nissan (plus Jaguar Land Rover now) have made a success of it shows that Britain is capable of decent mass production car manufacturing business.

In terms of shortsighted management, you just have to look at the British motorcycle industry, we were the market leaders until the Japanese came along and they were dismissed as not being a threat until it was too late. You can look at John Bloor's Triumph now to see what could have been achieved if not for shortsighted management.

It is sad but inevitable that Bristol have gone through as the niche market was getting smaller. Their current cars could never be described as beautiful (although the Fighter was good looking) so were going to have limited appeal.

I don't know who said this originally, but always thought there was an element of truth in it:
The French buy French cars, the Germans buy German cars and the Italians buy Italian cars, unfortunately for the British car industry, so do the British!

[Ant]

The Nissan Qashqai+2 was designed and is built in the UK.
So you could look at it as a British car with Japanese backing - and it is a massive export all over Europe

[Welshy40]

The Nissan Qashqai+2 was designed and is built in the UK.
So you could look at it as a British car with Japanese backing - and it is a massive export all over Europe

Still a Japanese product, even if built in the UK. TVR, Bristol, Marcos, Lotus, Range Rover, Land rover, Mini, Rolls Royce and Bently are no longer British and is a pity. I still think the reason why we lost these was due to the unions and all the strikes, plus bad workmanship.

[SlowOne]

The Referee and Bagman get closer to the truth IMHO. It's always been easy to blame Unions, but the fact is that the Unions in France, Sweden and Germany were stronger then, and now, than our Unions ever were. Germany down-sized its mining industry the same way we did, and did even more down-sizing in it's steel and shipbuilding industries than we ever did, but you never heard about it. These are not low-wage economies, and they manage to make money and survive in ways our industries didn't.

History tells us that the management in this country is poor. With a few exceptions, the general standard of management here and in the US is well below that of France, Sweden and Germany. When Dagenham was one strike after the other, Cologne (and I'm talking Ford in the '70s here, when BL was killing itself) was just oen continuous upward curve. Ford US invested where its management makes money, so no surprise its the Uk that has no car assembly today.

Sorry DCM and Welshy, the Unions did not ruin this country. A combination of poor management and a (Thatcher) Government wedded to the idea that a financial and services economy would turn us into the powerhouse of the world did that. It made it easy for management to hide from its shortcomings, so they did. French, German and Swedish (and don't forget the Swiss, who replaced UK as a machinery and equipment powerhouse) management were more disciplined and took a longer view. The outcome is there for us all to see. And this Government is doing no better...

Since there aren't many other British car makers left, this will become a rarer occurrence. But, if you need any further evidence, look at Lotus. Since they went into the hands of Proton, with better managers and a longer view, they have gone from strength to strength. I'm not saying Unions didn't take advantage, and make mischief, I am saying a weak management colluded by allowing them to be their excuse for not being able to run their companies. Just my thoughts...

[DaveG28]

I'm sorry, but it's not just bad management either, it's a mix of management and workers. Sadly all too many people in the UK think they are owed a job and a living by the world, and don't realise you have to make a product people want (combination of quality/price).

Take Bristol as an example, I can guess why they wouldn't give Top Gear a car. It's probably not very good!!

I know at least one UK firm who had workers demanding r&d be cut back to fund continuing pay rises for them whilst the company made a loss, that's long term thinking eh!!

Finally, as for the service/finance sector. It made money. British Leyland, Rover et al didn't. That's why our economy changed, nothing more drastic than that. Now the finance industry have required a bailout, the difference is that's to get over one worldwide shock, we'll probably get our money back. Our manufacturing industries required constant bailouts/help/favours! The sad thing is, we are great designers/innovators...

[Belsten]

totally agree bungle

You can not put it down to 1 single factor
Without doubt, and it is a common attitude I experience every day, short sightedness and complacency, by the management, unions, workers etc etc

[Adam F]

As said above, no one thing can take down a company.

I don't know specifics on why so many other manufacturers have vanished, so can only comment on what I know. I (and a few others on here) work for Triumph, one of the last of the historic UK volume manufacturers still UK owned and based.

We are currently leading the sales board in the over 500cc class in the UK and have continual growth, a bright future and big plans. All this in a relatively short period of time when others have died a death.

Why? Well these things certainly help...

Our products are very good - We generally win or do very well in group tests. All the marketing spend in the world won't sell a poor product for long.

We are privately owned by one man - Resources are not wasted, because the money behind it is all coming from an actual pocket. I have seen some serious money wasted by some big manufacturers that simply wouldn't happen at Triumph.

Our staff are effective/proud - This is a big deal, if you don't care about what you are doing it reflects in the end product. Sounds a bit wet but its true, there is a real sense of pride at Triumph.

Of course there are other factors, but without these three I don't think it would be the same story..

[Alfonzo]

Two very important but often overlooked factors;
1) The people who call the shots in Britain (politicians, financiers etc) don't understand manufacturing, engineering or science. Big mistake.
2) Underlying class war that can manifest itself as bosses vs workers. Harmful.

On a plus note, it would appear that the powers that be have suddenly come to their senses and are trying to revitalise science based vocations etc.

It's worth pointing out that China, the worlds quickest expanding economy and 2nd richest country is run by a politburo of which the overwhelming majority come from a science and engineering background. Not bleeding media studies, or some other vacant b*llocks.

[SlowOne]

Good point Alfonso, and to the countries that regard engineering and science as important we can add Germany, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, ...

Is it a coincidence that these countries have done rather well in economic terms compared to UK and America where the financially/legally biased people hold more sway? Correlation or causation...