Bankers! Give the uk back our money!

[Rebelrc]

As title says:thumbdown:

[wacattack]

What exactly is your point here????

[Matisse]

don't think they kept it bro, its a lot more complicated than that.

besides, i'd rather talk about rc.

[davidmog99]

How much do they owe you?

[Rebelrc]

Matisse this section is for off topic non Rc stuff

If you are tax payer lots!

[SlowOne]

It's not our money, that's quite safe in the bank you left it in. The Government didn't buy things from the banks using our money either. The problem is people who borrowed money from the banks and couldn't pay it back. Banks tied up these loans in complex financial instruments, traded them and then found they were worthless. If the Government had let the banks go bust, they would have taken our money with them.

As a taxpayer you haven't given any money to the banks, you have made them a loan on favourable terms in order to ensure that you don't lose the money you have deposited with them. The banks have to pay back that money, with interest.

As a taxpayer, you are paying more because overall this country is paying less tax as we are buying less, being paid less and more people are out of work; and yet we still have a country to run. The biggest 'crime' is the way companies pay a pittance in tax. If you are concerned about what you are having to pay and want them to pay their share, stop going to Tesco (22% tax rate) Vodafone (avoided a £4bn bill on the purchase of Mannesman) and scores of other companies avoid tax on an industrial scale. Google it!

We have borrowed huge amounts from others (via Government bonds) and eventually this has to be paid back, with interest. You can buy Government bonds and earn interest if you like - the UK's bonds are still one of the safest around.

What money of yours do you think they have that they owe you? All the people I know have not lost a penny to the banks. :confused:

[Rebelrc]

I thought the uk tax payer bailed the banks!
and while I am at it why are uk service providers like British gas putting up utility bills all the time then recording massive record profits when we lose 27 thousand oaps a year due to the cold and not being able to heat their homes?

[peetbee]

As Slowone said, we loaned them the money at favourable rates or became majority shareholders. In future those shares can be sold back to recoup the money with interest.
If either of those scenarios counts as a bailout then yes the govt did:D

Because they are not charities but businesses and have shareholders to answer to
Because the state pension is too low
Because people didn't save into their own pension as they trusted the state to look after them, etc, etc

[Rebelrc]

Who's loaning the struggling small businesses at a favourable rate to stop them going under?
Any one been to the hospitals recently? They are a joke? The staff are all mega maxed out!
Where I live it takes 5 hours to get seen at a&e

[jim76]

They will be in breech of their targets then Scott, as A&E has a 4 hour wait!

The NHS is struggling with the imposed savings at present, but like all enormous nationalised companies there is always a large amount of inefficiency through years of stagnation. It's just a case of reviewing things to find better practices and cut out waste and expensive contractors!

[kayce]

Any one been to the hospitals recently? They are a joke? The staff are all mega maxed out!
Where I live it takes 5 hours to get seen at a&e

Do you really think your tax dollars are contributing your fair share towards the cost of healthcare via socialized medicine?

This is the problem with economies, being as everyone sees a way they should be getting something on the cheap - despite the reality that EVERYTHING costs.

It's like this discussion I was having with a chap a while back, because he thought the dirt road he lived on (chose to live on) should be paved - because he paid taxes. I asked him who should pay for the paving, and he thought the city or the government should - like for the paving of any other roadway through town.
And I couldn't get him to wrap his head around the idea that if every road, that had one or two people living on it (like his own), was paved that the treasury would be broke in a matter of months.

Everybody wants everything, but nobody pays enough in taxes for everything to be done to their own personal liking.....:rolleyes:

Damn I despise discussing politics.

[lovechild]

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

[Rebelrc]

Actually kayce me and my wife pay an above the average amount of tax not that that's got anything to do with anything. How does that make me want stuff for nothing?
And as for the road example I live on a private road that we own and we pay for it and it's the nicest in the area lol
I am interested cause am sick of everytime the tv or radio are on,, all we here is cutbacks and credit crunch! Who ever has this money needs to be made accountable for this shite that good hard working people are experiencing
:mad:

[Rebelrc]

Stupid Americans doing property surveys by google earth!
Stupid Greeks not paying taxes but buying crap on finance!
Why should my nan go cold for that? Tits!

[Rebelrc]

Oh and kayce I've paid taxes for two decades now so how does this not entitle me to go to A&E? How is this wanting stuff for nothing ?

[pro4nut]

Do you really think your tax dollars are contributing your fair share towards the cost of healthcare via socialized medicine?



Actually yes we pay tax on our earnings and National insurance. Feel free to research how as a minimum 25% of our earnings (in the UK) are taken.

[Rebelrc]

Cheers pro4nut I missed that bit
Kayce...... Obviously My tax pays for my health care you nob!
Oh and that's proper English pounds ( hence the thread title )not dollars, do dollars even still exist? Thought there were none left lol

[kayce]

Actually yes we pay tax on our earnings and National insurance. Feel free to research how as a minimum 25% of our earnings (in the UK) are taken.

So you're saying that covers everything, or that you wished it covered everything?
And, according to what I read, you're not paying 25% - people like to say they are, but they aren't.

Kayce...... Obviously My tax pays for my health care you nob!
Oh and that's proper English pounds ( hence the thread title )not dollars, do dollars even still exist? Thought there were none left lol

Simple logic would suggest that if you were in fact paying your fair share in taxes, along with your fellow citizens, then there would be no wait at the hospital.
Dollars, pounds, euros, what-ever. :rolleyes:

[Rebelrc]

It covers everything you tit
This isn't stupid America
Simple logic tell me that you don't know what planet you are on..... Uranus I recon

Lots don't have a job.... So can't spend money or pay taxes...so more company's fold etc

[kayce]

It covers everything you tit
This isn't stupid America
Simple logic tell me that you don't know what planet you are on

Apparently it does not you doink.
Who said anything about America?
Simple logic, and the name of this thread, tells me you haven't even figured out the correct target for your anger. :lol::lol::lol:




Call them stupid if you must, but last time I was in America I didn't have to wait 4 hours for treatment at the hospital either. :D

[wacattack]

My god, what a blinkered view of the current situation. I'm not necessarily blaming you, much of this is due to how the press tell the story without really giving a true insight.

The so called bail out is a loan. A loan on favourable terms in which the country will benefit massively from.

What would you have proposed we do differently? Do you think we shouldn't have bailed the banks out? If we didn't, do you fully appreciate the consequences that would have caused.

Rubbish thread with no argument

[pro4nut]

Dollars, pounds, euros, what-ever. :rolleyes:

I tell you what you give me a hundred pounds and i will give you a hundred dollars.

In answer to your question, if you tell me how much private health care costs vs the taxed contribution of the average salaried earner in the United Kingdom is i will reply in greater detail. Fair?

[kayce]

I tell you what you give me a hundred pounds and i will give you a hundred dollars.

In answer to your question, if you tell me how much private health care costs vs the taxed contribution of the average salaried earner in the United Kingdom is i will reply in greater detail. Fair?

Never mind, you're already in over your head. :blush:

[kayce]

My god, what a blinkered view of the current situation. I'm not necessarily blaming you, much of this is due to how the press tell the story without really giving a true insight.

The so called bail out is a loan. A loan on favourable terms in which the country will benefit massively from.

What would you have proposed we do differently? Do you think we shouldn't have bailed the banks out? If we didn't, do you fully appreciate the consequences that would have caused.

Rubbish thread with no argument

:thumbsup:

[Rebelrc]

Well don't comment then plonkers

[jim76]

Never mind, you're already in over your head. :blush:

hmmm, cop out? :lol::lol:

[Rebelrc]

This thread is rubbish
No ones biteing lol

[kayce]

hmmm, cop out? :lol::lol:

Not at all - it's just when their grasp of basic economics leaves one feeling as if they're trying to explain quantum physics to a first grader, it's a lost cause. ;):lol:

[Rebelrc]

The expert kayce
He knows best
He likes posting pics of real cars in the vega section lol

[kayce]

The expert Rebelrc
He knows best
He likes blaming the bankers for everything, and wouldn't know a real Vega if it bit him in the arse :thumbsup:

[Rebelrc]

Of coarse I know the vega
My brother owns it and team xtreme
Oh real cars ford made one and chevy also kayce

[kayce]

Of coarse I know the vega
My brother owns it and team xtreme

Though, apparently, you don't know what a "real" Vega is :rolleyes: - and, like other things, those posts went right over your head too.
Well done laddie.


You have the girls name

And you're a cross-dresser.
So what? lol

[Rebelrc]

I'm not a lady lol
You have the girls name
Vega is a planet in the constellation lyra or something like that!
This is great
Your so much fun!

[Si Coe]

Whilst I don't want to delve into the details or the debate, the simple fact is some people have profited from all of this. Including amongst others senior bankers and investors that gambled away other peoples money and rather than be sacked have retired on generous golden parachutes.
In essence in bailing out the banks we have paid for these peoples cushy futures whilst screwing up our own.

Its the simplest economics of all - if you are getting poorer, where has your money gone? It doesn't simply disappear!

[Rebelrc]

True si
At last someone that pays attention to what's happening!

[Rebelrc]

These banks were Taking risks with our money,
It went wrong, they lost then we give them 100s of billions (win) and they do the same.
If they Invest well and earn lots of cash then great ( win)
But if they lose we give them the money anyway ( win)
Where's the ethics of that. Decent hard working people should be angry as they don't have this back up system at tescos.

[SlowOne]

This thread is rubbish
No ones biteing lolAfraid your bait is not very good, and the hook is showing through so we can all see what you're doing!! :D

Whilst I don't want to delve into the details or the debate, the simple fact is some people have profited from all of this. Including amongst others senior bankers and investors that gambled away other peoples money and rather than be sacked have retired on generous golden parachutes.
In essence in bailing out the banks we have paid for these peoples cushy futures whilst screwing up our own.

Its the simplest economics of all - if you are getting poorer, where has your money gone? It doesn't simply disappear!This is capitalism, the economic model that has won the contest of the last 100 years. Communism and co-operatives have failed, capitalism has won. In a capitalist economy, someone has to win and someone has to lose.

This all started in 1987 with Big Bang, when the much-worshipped and admired Margaret Thatcher did two things - allowed the banks to combine trading of stocks with the provision of investment banking advice and financing. Governments around the world lowered the capital requirements of banks - the amount of capital they needed to back the loans they made - so we all had ready access to loads of money and we borrowed like hell. then we couldn't pay it back, so the banks had to increase their capital reserves to cover the bad loans which meant they couldn't lend as much to us - the credit squeeze of 2007/8.

At the same time, a lot of the credit instruments they created were proved to be worthless, so banks could not pay what they owed to each other (the trading of money to make money) and to avoid collapse, Governments lent them the money they needed to meet their capital reserves. If they didn't, then they would go bust taking our savings and deposits with them.

Because we couldn't borrow money (including small business) we didn't spend as much so we entered a recession. In a recession, the Government's income goes down, so taxes have to go up to pay for the shortfall. As the Blair/Brown, and Bush Governments had been spending like crazy (us on the NHS, Education and local services, Bush on wars in Iran and Afghanistan) there was no instant alternative to cutting Government spending.

To make sure this never happens again, Governments further raised the capital reserve requirements on banks, so they are still busy raising this capital which means they have no spare cash to lend to anyone. Government tries to remedy this by pumping more money into the economy by making ever larger loans to the banks - quantative easing. We have to borrow this money, we issue more bonds, we have to pay more interest. At this rate, by 2014, almost 15% of our taxes will go to paying interest!

So, no, your money does not disappear. If you don't get a pay rise, and you can't borrow money, you can't get richer. In a recession you don't get a pay rise and your taxes go up, and in a credit squeeze you can't borrow money easily. Your money hasn't gone anywhere, it's just that you can't get enough to keep up with the rise in costs.

And just in case anyone is left with any good feelings about Margaret Thatcher, she was also the one who ran down our manufacturing industry in order to break the Unions, who decided that was not a problem because we would become a service and finance economy, and then privatised the utility companies because she said we needed more competition to drive down gas electricity and water bills!! And it was Gordon Brown who decided to tax the dividends paid into our pension funds which has led to them being decimated and us having lower pensions!

You can wind us up all you like Rebelrc, but this is what happens when you live in a capitalist economy. There's a rational explanation for it all, providing you don't believe what you read in the papers. That's all folks!!

[justleanitupabit]

And just in case anyone is left with any good feelings about Margaret Thatcher, she was also the one who ran down our manufacturing industry in order to break the Unions, who decided that was not a problem because we would become a service and finance economy, and then privatised the utility companies because she said we needed more competition to drive down gas electricity and water bills!! And it was Gordon Brown who decided to tax the dividends paid into our pension funds which has led to them being decimated and us having lower pensions!

You can wind us up all you like Rebelrc, but this is what happens when you live in a capitalist economy. There's a rational explanation for it all, providing you don't believe what you read in the papers. That's all folks!!

I agree with most of your post and it is largely correct except the bit above, Thatcher didn't shut down decent, efficient manufacturing plants that produced quality products.

She closed down these plants because they were by making absolute crap and were losing a huge amount of money and costing the country a fortune.

The Callaghan government was completely beholdant to Trades Unions who throughout the 70's went on strike whenever they felt like it, affecting quality, production and profitability of these state owned (at the time) assets. If you're looking a guilty party for the demise of the UK Large scale industrials look no further than the Labour government and the Trades Unions of the 70's.

Also

Labour did it again recently with the tendering process for the contract to build 100's of trains - they set the criteria which was biased AGAINST Bombardier (a British firm) and then also made the decision legally binding, so when a German firm (Siemens) won, there was no way the new Conservative government could do anything about it.

Thanks Labour.

[mattr]

I agree with most of your post and it is largely correct except the bit above, Thatcher didn't shut down decent, efficient manufacturing plants that produced quality products.

She closed down these plants because they were by making absolute crap and were losing a huge amount of money and costing the country a fortune.

The Callaghan government was completely beholdant to Trades Unions who throughout the 70's went on strike whenever they felt like it, affecting quality, production and profitability of these state owned (at the time) assets. If you're looking a guilty party for the demise of the UK Large scale industrials look no further than the Labour government and the Trades Unions of the 70's.Yup, but to expand (a little)

Yes, the labour party/unions stuffed it up good and proper in the 70s, Thatcher then leapt so far the other way, that even those companies who did have worthwhile products they could develop and sell suffered badly. Basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater (small baby, large bath).

Most/all other European countries give large scale tax breaks to R&D spend (some make it positively beneficial to spend cash on R&D). The Thatcher governments policies pretty much made it financial suicide to invest in R&D within the UK (compared to doing it in, say, Germany). So even the non-UK based companies moved work/R&D to other countries in Europe (and now to china, india and so on) or holding companies bailed out and sold off/closed down UK based companies to minimise exposure. Those remaining borderline/potentially successful UK based, UK owned businesses ended up with little/no chance in the European/Global market. And are now mostly owned by someone else. Or gone forever.

Unfortunately, successive governments since then have proceeded to do the same. So now there isn't much left to save.
Except, on the whole, the very very top end of the high cost/technology
market, where customers really will pay thro the nose for cutting edge knowledge based stuff. F1, Aerospace, Surface treatment, Composites and so on.

[justleanitupabit]

Yup, but to expand (a little)

Yes, the labour party/unions stuffed it up good and proper in the 70s, Thatcher then leapt so far the other way, that even those companies who did have worthwhile products they could develop and sell suffered badly. Basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater (small baby, large bath).

Most/all other European countries give large scale tax breaks to R&D spend (some make it positively beneficial to spend cash on R&D). The Thatcher governments policies pretty much made it financial suicide to invest in R&D within the UK (compared to doing it in, say, Germany). So even the non-UK based companies moved work/R&D to other countries in Europe (and now to china, india and so on) or holding companies bailed out and sold off/closed down UK based companies to minimise exposure. Those remaining borderline/potentially successful UK based, UK owned businesses ended up with little/no chance in the European/Global market. And are now mostly owned by someone else. Or gone forever.

Unfortunately, successive governments since then have proceeded to do the same. So now there isn't much left to save.
Except, on the whole, the very very top end of the high cost/technology
market, where customers really will pay thro the nose for cutting edge knowledge based stuff. F1, Aerospace, Surface treatment, Composites and so on.

Yes agreed but protectionism doesn't work, it is difficult to tailor legislation to allow "good" firms to prosper and "bad" firms to go under, especially when the "bad" outnumber the "good" by such wide margins and when we're thrown into the Common Market as it was then called.

Unfortunately when we are good we're the best in the world (F1 technology for example) when we're bad we're the worst.

Edit

And also what is hugely annoying and very important is that the part the general public played in this whole mess is totally and utterly ignored by all politicians because they are not brave enough to mention it.

[kayce]

And also what is hugely annoying and very important is that the part the general public played in this whole mess is totally and utterly ignored by all politicians because they are not brave enough to mention it.

:thumbsup: As it's also ignored by the general population. Everything's great while the money's rolling in and handouts are being delivered, but once the money trail dries up everyone finds reason to scream and kick their feet. Economics is never as easy as people tend to make it.

[SlowOne]

Kayce, I agree more with MattR's summary than yours, apart from the post above - economics is made by people - us - and we move much faster than Governments who can't keep up!!

Thatcher didn't kill bad industries, she killed all industries. Along with the things that Matt mentions, she also killed the Export Credit Guarantee Department who allowed firms to venture into new markets by guaranteeing (basically insuring, for which firms paid a premium) their payments for work done. At the same time, the Germans and Japanese expanded their ECGDs, with the Japanese (for example) paying their firms for exports within 30 days so that the Japanese companies could offer their customers 180 days credit - you could sell their product before you had to pay for it!

That allowed a lot of German and Japanese companies to expand. If they were crap, they folded anyway, if they small but good, they expanded. Small good British manufacturing companies just folded due to the recession here in the UK from '81 to '86 and withdrawal of the ECGD support.

Governments are slow to recognise that we have become the cottage industry of the World. We cannot compete in volume markets, but we can earn a very good living form these so-called small high-tech companies if only we would support their R&D and production processes development activities. this Government is starting to recognise it with the new High Value Technology Innovation Centres focusing on manufacturing, automotive and process industries.

The issue with Bombardier is interesting. The EU Rules for this type of contract require a bidder to meet all conditions of the contract. Bombardier could not raise the finance for the leasing part of the contract, that's why they failed. Siemens on the other hand did raise that funding, with not a little help from their Government. If the requirement had been to buy the trains, the Government would have been ale to choose Bombardier on a technical level with Siemens. It was another case of unintended consequences being ignored by the Civil Service, irrespective of the Government in power!

(As an aside, this method of keeping things of our balance sheet (the Private Finance Initiative) is costing this country a lot of money. As an example, a hospital costing £100m to build, when let under a PFI contract to build and run the hospital for 20 years, costs nearly £500m cash that we, the taxpayer, have to find. And we still have to pay to staff the hospital, but the kit, etc.)

(As another aside, it was this trick, developed by McKinsey, that the Greeks use to meet the requirements to join the Euro!! Which sort of brings us back to those bloody bankers again! They might not have our money, but they seem to have us by the balls!!)

[Welshy40]

As title says:thumbdown:

Actually you should be saying Labour put us in this mess, now lets get out of europe before it goes tits up. We can start a petition and over 200000 people can have their say and this will have to be discussed again.

Bankers helped but what you don't hear are these traders don't all get a basic wage, and live off the commission that they make.

Its a really tough industry and yes they are over paid but the hard workers and very lucky deserve all they get.

You missed off the credit card companies that started this off and has a huge debt behind it still, Labour kept really quite about that, i wonder why. Too many idiots are now being given cards and don't have the brains or capital to pay it off.

Then there are those people like on tv who think they are rich and not very bright and as an example buy a big house that wouldn't cost the earth to put right and make it a nice home and instead decide to go and knock it down and build a new one in its place, no sense there at all and money down the drain as well and I guess a big debt and you cant blame the banking industry on that either.

[SlowOne]

Actually you should be saying Labour put us in this mess, now lets get out of europe before it goes tits up. We can start a petition and over 200000 people can have their say and this will have to be discussed again. Yeah, and there goes another pink blob with wings...

We've had a petition with well over 100,000 signatures - to bring down the price of fuel. No debate, none planned. More than that for the one about immigration - and the Leader of the House says that is unlikely to be debated. Start as many petitions as you like, I have a fiver that says the debates will not happen.

Get out of Europe, eh? You are seriously considering taking us out of the union that means we can buy and sell 40% of the goods we produce without any duties or extra taxes (beyond VAT) and letting them set a range of import duties that will price us out of all these markets? That will do more damage to this country than any banker has ever managed.

I am sure that, if put to the vote, this country would take us out. At least that would mean that the depression and the following default on our debts wouldn't be followed by a load of complaints about the Government on forums - we would have done it to ourselves. Google 'Argentina default' if you want to know what happens when a country defaults on its debts - the situation still hanging over Greece - and everyone really loses all their money.

I appreciate there are things about the European Union we could do without, but again, Government could choose to do as Norway and France - choose not to implement all European legislation - and save us all the agony. We could also do more by choosing not to buy food that is subject to this legislation and demand local produce. We can't be arsed, it's all too much trouble! Nonetheless, voting to leave the EU is the best way to ensure that a depression results and you lose your job.

[Welshy40]

How much money are we ploughing into Europe?. I think that a lot of people want out and I am one of them and if we went to a vote we would not be part of Europe. Tony Blair who is an idiot as well as Brown (who both hated one another) who ruined this country by selling our only valuable asset the gold bullion reserve that we had (he should be hung for that) and they both didnt go for the vote because they were advised they would lose.

Unions, they ruined all the businesses in the country and now we have zero British car firms, hardly any coal mines and etc etc and proves a point. Unions are a bad thing, funny that they get greedy and go on strike, but much funnier when they lose their jobs :thumbsup: TFL underground will be next when they implement the robot driving trains. No more tube strikes and thats brilliant and funny.

When Europe falls and it will do you really want to be in a never ending recession due to this badly run fiasco. Do you know that the European HQ is in Germany for half a year and then they ship all the staff and equipment to the offices in Begium do to some stupid regulation they have and costs the European tax payers including us millions of Euros just for that. Daft and thats not the only one, there are more.

Why should we bail out Greece, Spain, Italy and the rest as its their greed that did this, not ours.

[Col]

I've not read such a small minded opinion as that for quite a while!

[kayce]

I've not read such a small minded opinion as that for quite a while!

+1 :wtf:

[justleanitupabit]

I've not read such a small minded opinion as that for quite a while!

+1 :wtf:

I'd prefer to say uninformed, which proves how biased the reporting has been.

There is no one single cause of this part of the financial downturn.

"Banks" lent too much money and assumed they'd get a good return ad-finitum.
"People" borrowed what they couldn't afford.
"Governments" blew their reserves and borrowed at ridiculous levels for political mileage. (The shortlived child trust funds is a great example.)

Gordon Brown flogging most of the countries gold reserves, whilst annoying and ridiculous is a drop in the ocean compared to the countries debts.

[SlowOne]

+1 to Col's comment, but in the interests of balance...

Winston Churchill (Liberal and then Tory) proposed a united Europe in order to prevent any country suffering the same as Germany under Hitler, and the rest of Europe too.

Harold Wilson (Labour) promoted that view and facilitated much of the original treaty that created the European Community.

Ted Heath (Tory) held the referendum that took us into Europe and signed us up to the original European Act.

Margaret Thatcher (Tory) signed the Maastricht Treaty that gave us the European Working Directive, the Human Rights Act and the current balance of payments into and out of the EU.

Gordon Brown and Tony Blair (Labour) did bugger all to change any of that, they just carried on as the four previous Prime Ministers had before them. If they are guilty of anything, it is masterly inactivity where Europe is concerned.

So, just how can Blair and Brown be to blame for our position in Europe?

Gordon Brown's crimes against this country are manifest and plentiful, but selling the gold reserves was waaaayyyyy down the list. Top of my list was the taxing of share dividends paid into pension funds. Raking in £20bn a year on that little jaunt has cost us, people who have pensions, something north of £200bn in lost pension payments over our lifetimes. Second on my list was his idiotic attitude to the financial sector with his belief that the days of boom and bust were over. The complete lack of regulation of the financial sector was one of many reasons that we are where we are.

As for the money we pay to Europe, our net contribution is about £4bn. What with the rebate we get back, and the funding we receive for infrastructure projects that is not subject to our Government's political interference, it pales into insignificance compared to the £31bn a year in interest we have to pay on our current loans. Which, again, brings us back to those bloody bankers!

Sorry to let some facts get in the way of a good story...