Indoor racing photos - how can it be done well?

[Garry]

How is it possible to take a halfway decent, non-blurry mess when shooting in low/poor light indoors? I'm still learning but can't use a flash (I don't want to distract the drivers).

I've got a Canon 1000D, I shot mostly in Av, I was fiddling with the settings and modes all evening to work out what made an improvement and what didn't, swapping between a long lens and a short one. I seemed to get my best shots with lowest F-stop (f5.6 with the kit 18-55mm lens, and f4.5 with a Tamron A17e 70-300mm lens). ISO was as high as possible (ISO 1600).

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150535692854582.382460.731469581&type=1&l=565b6dfacb

Samples:

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1929/img2827n.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6572/img2841u.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4162/img2887v.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3702/img2901v.jpg

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6447/img2917l.jpg

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/8735/img2970t.jpg

Also, what do you do? Fill the frame with the car or leave it zoomed out ( a bit or a lot) and crop later?

[raymondkerr]

it is very difficult to be honest, F5.6 isn't quick enough and won't let in enough light, ideally you'd be looking to use a lens with an aperture of F2.8 or lower, but theses are very expensive. You could try a prime lens either a 1.8 or 1.4 35/50mm but then you'll have to move about a lot to get decent shots in frame, not having any zoom.

try messing about in manual mode, turn your shutter speed up as far as you can, and use the flash. It is difficult to pan and shoot with low light indoors, especially when the cars are going so fast. Also make sure your ISO is at least 1600 or higher if your camera will allow.

[Pops]

hi, Had the same sort of issues at our club! You need a lense with a low F number(fast) to allow the max light onto the sensor,this will also allow you to use a faster shutter speed making the images sharper. Check out Jimmy's thread on photography its all explained very well. You can pick up a 50mm, f1.8 lense for around 80 pounds on ebay.One of the guys at club has one and it makes a massive difference..It all gets a bit expensive after that though!
Dave

[Pops]

Reviews and articles..photo tips and tricks:thumbsup:

[Ian_lawton]

can i ask if your using a tripod?

[jimmy]

A really good lens for indoor action as has been mentioned is a 50mm f1.8 - it's a cheap lens for canon, you can probably get one for about 50-60 quid or there abouts. Even if you stop it down to around F2 it's still bringing in lots of light and it'll be a lot easier to get some decent shutter speeds indoors.

The problem with using such a big aperture is getting things in focus because it can be a very shallow depth of field indeed. I think it's the best investment for taking shots indoors though as it's cheap and you can get awesome shots with it.

[Garry]

Thanks a lot guys. Really apprieciate the help. :) I've read Jimmy's guides (bookmarked now, I should have paid attention this summer on that project :lol:), I'll be on the hunt for a 50mm prime lens now. Funny as I have a non-RC mate who I described about what I was trying to shoot and she recomended a prime lens too, shame her equipment is Nikon though or I'd have pinched it once in a while!.

Its taken a while to work out the effects of ISO, aperture and shutter speed in real-world situations, its easy to read on the laptop then try to remember when trackside. It has helped when trying to shoot full-size motorsport too, but the guides for those aren't really applicable to our stuff, especially when indoors.

Do drivers get annoyed with flash on? I try to avoid it where possible.

[Cream]

As others have said it's not easy.

this was probably my best effort at the Southport indoor GP.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Creamuk/RC%20car%20parts/IMG_8413.jpg

Camera is a Canon 60D
Lens 100mm Macro
F-stop f/2.8
sutter speed 1/320
iso 1250 :o Light was dreadfull for high speed work so had to wack the iso up.
No flash (didn't want to put drivers off)


Basically you need a really low F-stop (low number not technically low, It's very confusing, I'm a newbie myself , look here if you really want to mess with your head :-) http://www.usefilm.com/Photo_Forum/1/851590/), So technically the higher(lowest number) it is the more light it is letting in. Although this does lead to a short depth of field (the part that is in focus)

BEST bang for buck by a LONG way is http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-canon-ef-50mm-f1-8-ii-lens/p12814
Fantastic lens for the money if your looking for a prime lens.

Also think about getting yourself a monopod, They are only about £15.00 and worth every penny.

[jimmy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EF-50mm-F-1-8-1-8-II-Lens-Tracking-In-Stock-/170721270377?pt=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item27bfc7da69

Flash is a difficult balance - the flash freezes anything it hits no matter what your shutter speed is - as long as the light from the flash overpowers the ambient light.

The ambient light is controlled with the shutter speed - the flash is controlled with the power of the flash along with the aperture / iso. It's of course more complex than that, but that's a loose rule to consider.

[colmo]

I'll echo Jimmy. Indoor RC racing photography is about as tough as it gets (outside of a warzone, anyway) - rubbish light, fast-moving and small objects are a perfect storm of photographic nightmares.

Bad light = needs big aperture
Fast moving = Needs high shutter speed
Small = Need to be close, thus accentuating lack of depth of field

It boils down to you needing to nail focus with wide aperture on a close, fast-moving object. Any errors are punished by the lack of depth of field. You may find going manual and pre-focusing might work better - you'll note with this method that A finalists are easier to shoot, because their line is more predictable.

[JCJC]

We have just added a 'nifty fifty' to our canon kit, its a delight to use, picked it up for £60 secondhand, a bit 'plastic' but sharper than the rubbish kit lens, it is thought to be fantastic value for money (look at the cost of the f1.4). Of course this will not give you those nice full frame close ups we love, cost of nice primes (200mm) with IS are well out of our reach. High iso helps with shutter speed at a cost.

Just shoot loads and keep the best, and costs nothing but time.

www.focusmagic.com may be fun to play with but its $45 to buy.

[eyeayen]

I can't really add much more than has already been said but learning to pan with the models and be smooth when you use the camera is a good technique to master and might help with this slightly.

Have you asked around with the racers and seen if they object to you using flash ? I don't know how the track and rostrum is set up for you but I'd imagine if you're facing the same way as the guys on the rostrum the flash isn't going to blind them and will to them be quite lost in the hall you ran in so I don't think it will affect them. If you don't ask you don't know ?

Post up how you get on though this is a really good thread for people wanting to photograph at their club :)

[Garry]

Brilliant advice guys, keep it coming along with any tricks and tips, samples you have taken etc. Its payday next week so I may have to pick up that lens Jimmy has linked to, great VFM.

I don't use a tripod but I've been tempted to get one for full-size motorsport anyway. I'm not too bad with panning at that scale though. The specific meeting I shot at in the first post was an open practice night aimed at novice drivers, so I didn't want to start distracting them with random flashes when its hard enough to learn how to drive a car round a track, never mind in race conditions and flashes popping off. One end of the marquee has much much better lighting than the other (white instead of orangey yellow, and more of them) so I got my better pics at that end.

Re cropping and framing, do you guys prefer to fill the viewfinder with the car (i.e. zoomed in), or have it quite far out and crop the photo down later on in post-processing?

[colmo]

Try to avoid cropping too much, as you lose resolution and magnify noise, which you will get shooting at high ISO.

[eyeayen]

If anything you'd be better with a mono-pod than a tripod.

I try and get the image as much as I can in camera, when I've cropped stuff it ends up grainy when you look at it the same size as the others so I'd avoid that as much as you can, it's okay to crop or clone some of the final image away though, in the heat of the moment and with Marshalls running about it's often difficult to avoid a bit of a leg or something random in the picture as you pan past.

[colmo]

Also think about getting yourself a monopod, They are only about £15.00 and worth every penny.

Not too sure about the utility for RC racing - they're more for long lenses and marginal shutter speeds (you'll be wanting at least 1/500th sec for racing so hardly marginal). Very useful for other forms of photography when you can't be arsed lugging a tripod. Not an expensive accessory, so worth a try.

[toooldskool]

i'm thinking of buying a used 350/400 Canon - can anyone recommend a suitable dealer

[eyeayen]

I've always received good service from London Camera Exchange.

I'd get a copy of Amateur Photographer magazine and look at the ads, skimming through the one in front of me on my desk ( not current issue ) Camtech, Mifsuds and Camera World all list used stock for those models.

[JCJC]

Always eBay :woot:, the 350 is a bit old now, 400's are going cheap. 1000's 450's and the newer 1100d would be better buys if you can find the extra dosh. 2 eBay sellers to look at would be Canon UK (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?_catref=1&_ssn=canon_uk1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m1538) and AllDigital (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?rt=nc&_catref=1&_dmpt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCamera s_JN&_ssn=alldigital0869&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1539). Canon Uk stuff is like new, but mostly later models, AllDigital have some 350's but are body only. Digigood (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?_catref=1&_ssn=digigood&_trksid=p3911.c0.m1538) have some good price current models, may be imported.

[mark christopher]

i'm thinking of buying a used 350/400 Canon - can anyone recommend a suitable dealer
ill hopefully have one for sale in a couple of months with lense spare battery, if your not sorted by then let me know

[F1END]

I really struggled recently at the Area51 race with a Canon 400D with a Sigma 18-200 lens. The lens goes to F3.5 at 18mm, which was OK (ish), but as soon as I zoom in to 200mm, the aperture shoots to F6.3, which is just too small. I'm a designer primarily, but know a bit about photography.

It's more about the lens than the Camera, although the top-end professional Canons (1D and 5D) have a much larger sensor, so allow more light in. A friend of mine who is a professional photographer did some testing with me with his 5D, swapping lenses and doing test shots in controlled lighting conditions. My 400D still did better with his professional lens than his 5D with my crappy lens, but his 5D was so much better with my lens than my camera was.

I'd like to know what the spec of that huge lens you were using at Area51 was Jimmy. I know you use a Nikon, but there's probably a similar spec for a Canon.

I'd love to see a specific article from you on indoor RC photography.

Also, I have sent you a PM about getting hold of your original photos for Area51.

[toooldskool]

Always eBay :woot:, the 350 is a bit old now, 400's are going cheap. 1000's 450's and the newer 1100d would be better buys if you can find the extra dosh. 2 eBay sellers to look at would be Canon UK (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?_catref=1&_ssn=canon_uk1&_trksid=p3911.c0.m1538) and AllDigital (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?rt=nc&_catref=1&_dmpt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCamera s_JN&_ssn=alldigital0869&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1539). Canon Uk stuff is like new, but mostly later models, AllDigital have some 350's but are body only. Digigood (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Digital-Cameras-/31388/i.html?_catref=1&_ssn=digigood&_trksid=p3911.c0.m1538) have some good price current models, may be imported.


Thanks JCJCfor info- bought a 1000d from Alldigital- Sorry Mark, I got all twitchy and couldn't wait

[JCJC]

Hope you enjoy it, 1000d's & 450d's are a step up from the 350 & 400's, the live view can be nice. Had a 1100d off AllDigital couple of weeks ago, like new and a sweet camera. Lots of buttons and settings to play with :):).

[Garry]

A 1000D is what I have and its a great tool to start off with. Just getting to know the basics is hard enough with a DSLR but theres plenty of guides and tips on the web which are specific to this camera.

[carborush]

I wouldn't worry to much about the depth of field with the lower values in Fstop
the further away from the lens de larger the depth of field becomes
this is only an issue when you're shooting from a very short distance
if you're shooting a 50m f1.8 orso out on the track the distance should be long enough to get good results
+ 'isolating' a jumping car surrounded with blur from the depth of field can make a great shot !

to my experience 50mm is a bit to small for RC racing to get good full frame shots from the cars it would be better to go with 24-70mm 2.8f or 70-200 2.8f however they are very expensive lenses :) but they are sharp as hell and keep the low 2.8f when you zoom in

I would say, invest in the lens not the body, they will make your pictures much better then getting the next new megapixel body

[Pops]

you'll note with this method that A finalists are easier to shoot, because their line is more predictable. :thumbsup:

[Garry]

Got the Canon EF 50mm F/1.8 1.8 II that Jimmy linked to (thanks boss!), had a bit of a play with it last night at a club night. Can't remember what settings I used but it was either F/1.8 or F/2, so I think the shutter speed was too low as was the ISO (using it in full Manual mode).

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3879/img3233h.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1185/img3242q.jpg

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5476/img3276al.jpg

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6703/img3299ou.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5120/img3301p.jpg

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1233/img3330yt.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3909/img3333i.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3663/img3349l.jpg

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3896/img3367f.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5289/img3374l.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/976/img3378k.jpg

[Cruise]

You used F1,8 Iso 800 and 1/125

so you can`t go up in F the Canon 1000 can ISO 1600 but I doubt that the Color noise will be acceptable. the sweet spot for rc car photos is about 1/400to 1/800.

For comparison: Canon 350D EF-S 55-250 EX430 in High speed mode, F5, ISO1600, 1/320

Cruise

[mole2k]

Indoors is hard and you pretty much have to accept that you will get some noise unless you can afford really high spec gear. A noisy shot is better than a blurry shot though!

Shooting in RAW can help you in post to reduce the colour noise and clean up the image a bit more.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3274/3046309681_86f9b23c11.jpg
1/400th Sec, ISO 400, 50mm, F2

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3149/3047146916_303a4d13d8.jpg
1/125th sec, ISO200, 50mm, F2

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3391/3219513384_04a23afcd5.jpg
1/250th sec, ISO400, 50mm, F2

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3267/3219356768_5be00804ea.jpg
1/250th sec, ISO400, 50mm, F2

Those above where all shot in Clogher Valley MCC which has relatively good lighting for an indoor venue thus allowing lower iso's when you stop down to f2.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5250/5301769138_6ca5e3c1ce.jpg
1/200th sec, ISO1600, 10mm, F4

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5002/5301766440_3951881169.jpg
1/400th sec, ISO1600, 94mm, F4

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5208/5301173825_1456ffe9d5.jpg
1/200th sec, ISO1600, 10mm, F4

The last 3 shots where taken in the Naul in Dublin, the lighting is similar to CVMCC but as the track is much bigger access is more restrictive meaning the 50mm would not work out as well as it does indoors on the smaller track. To combat this I used my 10mm to take wide field shots showing a car and the track as a whole to help give some context. The one close up shot of the car displays quite a bit of noise but with my 70-200 f4L that was sadly unavoidable due to simply there not being enough light/my camera not being sensitive enough to light/my lens not having a large enough aperature. A noisy picture is still better than none at all though.