Paypal gift. Again.

[Col]

Following on from this thread: http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95052

Is it time to ban paypal gift payments?

[Nas]

I personally think it should be banned, many new comers will not know how gift works etc,and they could easily be scammed or whatever. Paying that small fee is much safer,you have Paypal protection.Were as with gift you have NOTHING.

[Cardnim]

hmmm, good question to ask Col, and initially I jsut typed in a message saying I DONT think it should be banned as if I know the person then Im happy to gift them (eg. Dazzler, danclement, bigRed - all very reputable and 100% trustworthy)

However, I now DO think it should be banned. If it is banned on the listing, then new buyers are protected.

Yet this doesnt stop me choosing gift as an option when I log into my paypal account to pay - if I know the people and am happy to do so.

So maybe a good idea to ban it on here?
I vote yes.

[bodgit]

Ban it. Too many people are getting ripped off.

[acorn28]

I've generally always sent gift payments, but after reading this, I'll certainly be reluctant to do so in the future. As a seller, its easy to factor the Paypal fees into your asking price and as a buyer, personally I'll now prefer to pay a few extra quid for the peace of mind.

[JCJC]

Its worked well for me in the past (gift), but like to know who I am dealing with.

[mattr]

Ban people from asking for it, either by putting it in the ad, or via PM.

If the buyer wants to do it that way, fair enough, their look out.

I've just paid for some stuff by PPG, but its only 17 quids worth, so if its a no show, i have to live with the loss.

[john333]

I don't sell much but I have started saying price inc fee's and postage.

If the buyer looks at my post count and feedback and decides it's safe in their opinion to pay by gift then I wont argue, but I certainly wont demand gift payment.

My vote would be to ban asking for gift in the advert.

[TARTMAN]

ban on insisting PPG, yes, but make it optional. If you know the seller or there feedbacks good, then gift is a safe option and saves the paypal fees etc. but if a new buyer/seller etc, then safer to have it normal PP......

Banning is prob easier, as long as the regulars can use gift, i dont like the paypal fees, but its a good idea sometimes ....

did i just sit on the fence again., oooops........:drool:

[Cream]

I voted to keep it. I always ask for gift payment but if they want to pay the extra 4% that is an option I give them with the revised price.
Me personally, I pay the fees of buying, unless I REALLY know the person.
You have got to look at who you are buying off. If it's someone trying to build a reputation e.g. some one like myself, They are not likely to rip you off. One justified bad comment wipes out dozens of good comments. If it's some one random then your a fool for doing it. If they insist on gift payment then walk away. No matter how good the deal looks. Pay the extra 4% and be happy you have some comeback.

It's very dificult to police and even if it's banned you'll still get people paying by gift via PM, and you'll still have people moaning on the site that they have been ripped off.
Top and bottom of it.
Deal with people you trust or give yourself some protection against the idiots. There are lots of warnings on the site and a great feedback forum for people to make an informed choice.

[discostu]

i think it should be down to the buyers discretion if you pay with gift its your risk not ooples fault and in my view the posts the get put on here moaning about sellers not sending and the buyer has payed with ppg should be removed we are not intrested.

its your own fault


its just my view so dont be offened

stu

[martgifford]

i think it should be down to the buyers discretion if you pay with gift its your risk not ooples fault

I agree with you.

... in my view the posts the get put on here moaning about sellers not sending and the buyer has payed with ppg should be removed we are not intrested.

its your own fault

You are correct, it is my fault for trusting previous feedback and sending payment as gift. However people are interested as it helps other people keep safe and sometimes (as in my case-fingers crossed), helps resolve the situation for me and others. This is the idea of a community/trader feedback.

... its just my view so dont be offened

I am not

[U1timate PigDog]

I say keep it, theres alot of people on here who are trust worthy and safe to pay by gift and its being spoilt by the few that are just trying to rip people off.

I think that maybe the limit on how many posts youve made should be higher before being able to post in the for sale section. Ive seen people come on here first post FOR SALE.

Or is there a better way of varifying peoples names and addresses for people wishing to sell?

[dibble34]

I don't ever ask for ppg and don't like it when others do, however i think leave it. You don't want to have to police everything. Some other forums are very strict in the sales section and It puts me off the whole site. There is lots of info about ppg gift on this site. Maybe put a sticky warning about ppg in sale section.

[bigred5765]

Gift is fine as long as you know the person, other wise use goods and pay expenses then at least your covered,

[Karting]

ban it, it makes everything easier, then everyone is covered

[SlowOne]

Col, I hope you weren't one of those who complained on a recent thread about the nanny state!! :lol:

Clearly the Oople community will decide what they think is best. My view is that if people cannot do their homework; if they enter into agreements (like PayPal) they cannot be bothered to read; if they make any assumptions about people they 'meet' over the internet... they get what they deserve.

Personally, I am roundly fed up with being made to do this or that, behave this way or that, just because there are a few idiots out there who are unable to do their homework, and unable to take responsibility for their actions. With my tongue in my cheek, and not a little sarcasm, I am also fed up with people trying to ensure that the idiots don't die out naturally, and creating an environment where they thrive!! Banning PPG only makes sure that the Laws of natural selection favour the idiots and breeds more of them!!! :D

Seriously, let the Oople users and dedicated community members decide. I would prefer to be able to act as I think fit to keep my costs down, but if everyone feels the need to protect people from themselves, then so be it. Thanks for raising it Col, hope I am forgiven for hijacking the thread for a rant... of sorts... :)

[cjm_2008]

I insist on direct bank transfer - no fees involved for either party.

in addition to that, I will issue any buyer with my full name, address, and both phone numbers if they require it. and once an item is paid for & posted, the buyer gets the tracking number (I'll NEVER agree to send anything uninsured & not tracked).

paypal = parasite, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dazzler]

Regardless of the outcome of this poll, it can't actually be banned - Fact. It can be enforced that gift is not requested in For Sale adds. But that's about it.. It's down to buyers to be vigilant and do what they feel is right. The real deal is carried out by PM's, phonecalls, emails etc. therefore that is when buyers and sellers will do as they please.



I can only suggest 2 things: -

1) Is that Col runs a bring and buy stall from his house? :lol:

2) Lobby PayPal to have the option removed for everyone.

I don't see either happening..

[burgie]

I echo absolutely what slowone said....

Don't bring the nanny state onto oople, let Darwin take his course!

[jim76]

I list my adverts at the price I wish to receive for the item. I then give people the option of paying that by gift or adding fees, their choice. I have a feedback thread to help them make that choice.
Some buyers like to save themselves an extra couple of quid, some like security. The choice is theirs.

As previously said, just do a little homework on the seller and weigh up the risks compared to the price asked. If it's a kit for a couple of hundred, the fees may be a good idea. If it's only 15 quid then it may be acceptable risk.

Just my view.

I think pigdog had a good point about minimum post count before using the trade section. Would certainly stop one time scammers

[tisher]

Me personaly have bought maybe thirty items of you guys on here in the last year and have paid by gift every time and never been ripped off. To me its just common sence If a memeber is very active on the forum and they have lists of mates etc and post on there club section there more than likley to be genuine if someone comes on with low posts etc then just dont deal with them. Maybe something can be put in place where you can not sell in the section unless you have more then 100 posts that should stop alot of the rip offs going on

[Si2008]

How do you ban it?

You can put in the rules not to request gift payments but you can't ban it? Just let common sense and personal judgements prevail.

[adon30]

Even with gift option you can still get your money back, as long as it is not been funded from your paypal balance. If you have a direct debit option to your bank then your bank can refund you and if you use a credit card your credit card company can refund you. So all is not lost.

However common sense is the thing here. If you are not sure then pay fees to cover yourself or do the deal face to face. Also sellers make sure you use a recorded service for high expense items (especially to people you don't know) so buyers don't scam you either.

[jimmy]

I think paying with GIFT is fine if you know the person at all. If they're a new user and come on only to sell something and request GIFT then I don't think it's really wise to pay via gift but that's just me. I don't know whats best, to 'ban' people asking for it and allow people to pay via gift anyway if they want to - or just leave it alone and maybe advise people not to use gift for people they don't know, which is the common sense solution I guess.

[Rich D]

I list my adverts at the price I wish to receive for the item. I then give people the option of paying that by gift or adding fees, their choice. I have a feedback thread to help them make that choice.
Some buyers like to save themselves an extra couple of quid, some like security. The choice is theirs..........................................

I think what Jim said above here makes perfect sense. Want protection pay for it. Dont want to pay, risk it or buy elsewhere.

Do sympathise with these guys who are worried about their money though, fact remains that of what must be hundreds of transactions, theres only been a tiny minority that have been trouble. The vast majority on here are good guys.

I do think that sending via recorded post for items over say £30 ish is sensible though. Protects the buyers money and the seller too from dishonest buyers claiming that their item never arived.

[Vinster]

On ebay i think asking for fee is not allowed and paypal gift is not an opition. paypal stinks as company try making a claim takes for ever and you very rarely win.

If you dont like paypal fees go back to the old method of sending a cheque .

[Chequered Flag Racing]

so it's 50/50 at the moment

while your on Col what about race fee's:lol:

At the last Chadderton meeting 17 entries were indicated to be done by Paypal - to date I have only received 3 of these.

If you were supposed to do this then please make sure that you process this as I am now confirming the list of entries and I have drivers waiting to see if there are any places.

I shall start allocating places this week as the meeting is now only 2 weeks away.

When you make your payment - please make sure that you accept any charges or you can gift an amount without charges but I am not sure what the limit of this is.

[Si2008]

I don't know whats best, to 'ban' people asking for it and allow people to pay via gift anyway if they want to - or just leave it alone and maybe advise people not to use gift for people they don't know, which is the common sense solution I guess.

Thing is, if you ban people asking for it, they will still pay for it via Gift if they want to regardless. So all banning is doing is removing the use of the words 'gift' and 'Paypal' together from threads. Banning in this instance is fairly meaningless and hollow.

Better to just advise of the risks of Gift payments and let people make up there own minds. That really is all the responsibility any forum should hold.

[cigbunt]

I say keep it, theres alot of people on here who are trust worthy and safe to pay by gift and its being spoilt by the few that are just trying to rip people off.

I think that maybe the limit on how many posts youve made should be higher before being able to post in the for sale section. Ive seen people come on here first post FOR SALE.

Or is there a better way of varifying peoples names and addresses for people wishing to sell?

i agree totally...

but a post limit and a length on time you've signed up before you can even post in the for sale...

[Cream]

End of the day people should just use their common sense. If it's spmeone you don't know or it's a lot of money pay the fee's and have some sort of cover. If it's some one you know then make you own mind up if they can be trusted.
Shoe can also be on the other foot, Which is why I always send stuff recorded.

[SlowOne]

Paying by direct bank transfer is a good idea, that would save any PayPal involvement. However, would you give your bank details to someone you didn't know...? No, me neither.

What passes me by completely is why the banks haven't cottoned on to this market, and have left PayPal a clear run at it. If I were Barclays, HSBC, etc. I'd be getting this sorted PDQ and giving PayPal a hard time on fees, speed and service.

Still, interestingly, running neck-and-neck on the vote. Does that mean we will get a coalition answer - you can use PPG if you like but Col doesn't recommend it and Jimmy doesn't mind!!! :lol:

[TARTMAN]

paypal is a rip off, always has been, but its super quick and there is protection to a point. The bank transfer, i would not do for the eason you mentioned.
Also the banks take ages to sort out efunds etc, going through one about a real size car part that was wrong and eturned but no refund. taking ages to sort out.........

PPG is fine if you know them, or pay the fees and get protection. simple......

Paying by direct bank transfer is a good idea, that would save any PayPal involvement. However, would you give your bank details to someone you didn't know...? No, me neither.

What passes me by completely is why the banks haven't cottoned on to this market, and have left PayPal a clear run at it. If I were Barclays, HSBC, etc. I'd be getting this sorted PDQ and giving PayPal a hard time on fees, speed and service.

Still, interestingly, running neck-and-neck on the vote. Does that mean we will get a coalition answer - you can use PPG if you like but Col doesn't recommend it and Jimmy doesn't mind!!! :lol:

[Andrew Twigger]

What business do other people have in whether or not fees are paid by the buyer, the seller or not at all? If both parties accept the risk involved, then it's their choice.

If someone is new to the forum then one would hope they are intelligent enough to find out the implications of paying by gift if they are handing cash over to someone they don't know.

All you can do is ensure that the information is made available to those that choose to read it. This can be in the form of a 'Sticky' thread, or can be tagged onto every single for sale item at the bottom of the post.

[Mike Parker]

What business do other people have in whether or not fees are paid by the buyer, the seller or not at all? If both parties accept the risk involved, then it's their choice.

If someone is new to the forum then one would hope they are intelligent enough to find out the implications of paying by gift if they are handing cash over to someone they don't know.

All you can do is ensure that the information is made available to those that choose to read it. This can be in the form of a 'Sticky' thread, or can be tagged onto every single for sale item at the bottom of the post.

Agree with a 3 points raised here. My POV is that the agreement is made by the buyer & seller on how the transaction is made, whether it be as a gift payment or not. The extra 4% fee acts as insurance should the worse happen, which for a lot of guys see the benefits of this instead of it being an extra 'monetory' value that they have to give up.

I usually go the 'gift' route as I know that from my end, I take a conciencious approach in the way I conduct myself, and I do everything I can to ensure that what I say I do gets done. Never had a problem touch wood. And if I buy, I tend to deal with guys I know.

[cjm_2008]

paypal is a rip off, always has been, but its super quick and there is protection to a point. The bank transfer, i would not do for the eason you mentioned.
Also the banks take ages to sort out efunds etc, going through one about a real size car part that was wrong and eturned but no refund. taking ages to sort out.........

PPG is fine if you know them, or pay the fees and get protection. simple......

well, I did have an issue with a sale two weeks ago, where I'd taken direct bank payment for three lipo packs. but it turned out I'd miscounted and I only actually had two (rediculous I know!).

as soon as I spotted the error, I shot a PM to the buyer stating the situation, and that I'd refund part of the amount, or the whole lot if they wished to back out, or an alternative pack - and as I included my phone number in each PM, they could ring me to discuss.

that evening the father of the buyer called (turns out the buyer was quite young and his dad was paying), we had a very nice chat - you know, a voice conversation between two human beings which helps to establish trust & a rapport - the partial refund was in his account within a couple of hours & everyone is happy.

I think problems arise from this weird internet phenomenon where communication is disconnected from what we'd normally expect, and people seem to feel awkward about chatting on the phone.

I'd advise ANYONE purchasing ANYTHING of significant value to actually have a telephone conversation with the selling individual before handing over any money, paypal or otherwise. if the person you're buying from won't give you a phone number, or an address, or comes across as a bit of a tool if you do speak to them, back out.

[AC199]

I insist on direct bank transfer - no fees involved for either party.

in addition to that, I will issue any buyer with my full name, address, and both phone numbers if they require it. and once an item is paid for & posted, the buyer gets the tracking number (I'll NEVER agree to send anything uninsured & not tracked).

paypal = parasite, as far as I'm concerned.

Couldnt agree more, which is weird since we both have the same initials...

Paypal is only good for buying stuff from China, every single bank has internet banking now, so its just easier.

Having said that though, on the purpose of the post, banning it is probably the best bet, as its going to save a lot of hastle in the long run.

AC