Scrap Clubman in favour of formula racing

[Legacy555]

Hi all,

There has been much talk of late about modifying the rules to allow the faster Clubman drivers to compete with the slower modified drivers.

The aim of any amendment to the rules would be to promote competition in the "mid" field and to isolate and protect new racers from being blown out of the water by the faster drivers in the same class.

So, I'm going to make the following proposal (in time, once developed) to the committee for adoption into the rules for this year's outdoor championhip - and by default it will more than likely be adopted into weekly racing. This is only an concept for an amendment and it can be tweaked based on the feedback that we get here and at racing before it is implemented.


Scrap the Clubman class, and put everyone into the modified class - this will fill up heats more and avoid marshalling issues related to 2 or 3 car races.
Give everyone new formula gradings from F1 to F5. F1 will be a National Championship winner - any motor, free esc timing. F2 will be drivers with any motor and free esc timing at are calcluated to be on average a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F3 will be drivers with any motor, but no esc timing allowed who are again a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F4 will be drivers with 10.5 or greater motors and no esc timing who are a certain percentage slower than the lead F1 driver. F5 will be drivers with 10.5 or greater motors and no esc timing who have less than 1 full years racing experience.
Prizes will be awarded to top 3 overall and top 2 or 3 in each formula instead of by Modified / Clubman.
This concept is really focused on F3 - The modified drivers who are 2 laps+ off the lead modified drivers pace will be catagorised as F3, as will the current leading clubman drivers. So we should have 8 - 10 drivers in this section all on a very similar pace.

....... I;ve to think more about this, but thought I'd get the initial idea out there for general digestion.

[Legacy555]

Just to add to this,

We would also have to incorporate a system of progression, so tha the winner of any formula would move up to next formula in the following year.... etc.

[celticpanman]

Hi. I personally will be staying in clubman. It is more fun,closer racing, more competitors

I feel that if someone is fast enough and wants to go faster GO MODIFIED.
This was proposed before, discussed and it was felt BETTER FOR THE CLUB to leave the classes as they are.
Also if a driver wins a championship they have the choice ( not the club) if they want to progress.
They might not want to, they might only have won it by a close margin and was lucky

This was voted on by those who turned up to vote on it.

Let's see
Graham

[Legacy555]

Hi. I personally will be staying in clubman. It is more fun,closer racing, more competitors

I feel that if someone is fast enough and wants to go faster GO MODIFIED.
This was proposed before, discussed and it was felt BETTER FOR THE CLUB to leave the classes as they are.
Also if a driver wins a championship they have the choice ( not the club) if they want to progress.
They might not want to, they might only have won it by a close margin and was lucky

This was voted on by those who turned up to vote on it.

Let's see
Graham

Hi Graham,
Good to see that we're getting the discussion rolling.
This doesn't have to be about going faster or slower - its more about pitching drivers of equal ability together. It also reduces marshalling issues by getting rid of heats with 2 or 3 cars in them.

It will allow drivers like Ciaran, Lucy, Adam, Aaron and all other new drivers to win something without having to beat Ivan or David. Similarly, Ken, Jack and Dave would all have a championship within a championship to race for.

Whether we limit motors or ban esc timing for whatever formulas can all be worked out at a later stage - it's just about putting the feelers out to see what people think.

I understand your viewpoint, but Ivan, Lee, David and Kevin all seem to be interested in how this could be worked out.

[Sv1keith]

Hi will just to clear what you pupose is in a roundabout way is keeping junior racers in a class of there own at 10.5 and senior clubclass go modified with f3 f2 racers

[Legacy555]

Hi will just to clear what you pupose is in a roundabout way is keeping junior racers in a class of there own at 10.5 and senior clubclass go modified with f3 f2 racers

Hi Keith,
At the moment we have 2 classes, Clubman and Modified
Modified = F1, F2 and F3
Clubman = F4 and F5.
We award 2 sets of prizes every season - one for clubman, one for modified.

What I propose is that we have 5 prizes. Get rid of the Clubman and modified system and use

F5 = new racers (less than 1 full year experience)
F4 = better than F5 but worse than F4
F3 = better than F4 but worse than F3
F2 = better than F3 but worse than F1
F1 = best drivers

We would have to work out the technical regulations for each formula.
F5 and F4 would be the same as current clubman - 10.5 motor and no esc advanced timing.
F3 could be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing or something else.
F2 and F1 would run with the current modified regulation.

[Rayzerp]

Hi Keith,
At the moment we have 2 classes, Clubman and Modified
Modified = F1, F2 and F3
Clubman = F4 and F5.
We award 2 sets of prizes every season - one for clubman, one for modified.

What I propose is that we have 5 prizes. Get rid of the Clubman and modified system and use

F5 = new racers (less than 1 full year experience)
F4 = better than F5 but worse than F4
F3 = better than F4 but worse than F3
F2 = better than F3 but worse than F1
F1 = best drivers

We would have to work out the technical regulations for each formula.
F5 and F4 would be the same as current clubman - 10.5 motor and no esc advanced timing.
F3 could be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing or something else.
F2 and F1 would run with the current modified regulation.

I certainly agree that F3 should be 10.5 with timing or faster motor with no timing.......this would allow you to move up initially without purchasing a new motor.
As for the change in classes it is a personal opinion but i would much prefer Wills proposal as there is a constant push to improve yourself and a structure to do so. With the current system there is little incentive to move from winning clubman races to making up the numbers in modified. The point about full heats and lack of marshals is well made too.

[tony6187]

hi will,i support this idea.i have found recently that all im doing in modified is tooling around getting out of the way of faster drivers with no one really to race against.moving to this system would put me in with people who i could race against and make racing a whole lot more intesting:thumbsup:.the one issue is the no timing in f3 grade with mod motors(i can see your reasoning behind this) but dont think it will work,but thats a discussion for another day.keep up the good work:thumbsup:

[Click]

Hi Wil,

I think this is a great idea. It allows every racer to race with a similarly paced competitor.

My personal choice for F3 rules is keep the 10.5 turn motor limit but you can mod the ESC.

I think the existing Clubman and Modified structure is not beginner friendly, which in my opinion is a section the club needs to nurture and support.

That's my bit :thumbsup:

[kartstuffer]

Now we are getting somewhere.
Good idea Will it all looks very good .
Having tried a 10.5 motor with adv timing last weekend I would suggest F3 to be 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed OR any motor with no esc timing allowed.This would allow anyone to move into F3 without having to spend on new gear .
Now just work out your class formula:woot::wtf::thumbsup:

[tony6187]

Now we are getting somewhere.
Good idea Will it all looks very good .
Having tried a 10.5 motor with adv timing last weekend I would suggest F3 to be 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed OR any motor with no esc timing allowed.This would allow anyone to move into F3 without having to spend on new gear .
Now just work out your class formula:woot::wtf::thumbsup:
hi ivan,one problem i forsee with the no timing in mod is that if your runing a mod motor and you want to go faster instead of just uping the timing you just fit a faster motor,you arent actually limiting anything and ultimitly all you will do is end up with people runing motors they cant handle or adding to expense and also a greater difference in speed(10.5 vs 6.5) i currently run an 8.5 with a small amout of timing

[The Doktor]

Hi Will,
I would support this idea in principal too.
How would you see a normal race day working?

F1 and 2 drivers together in the same heats,
F3 drivers in another heat
F4 and 5 drivers together in heats
And finals split the same

Or would you see it F1, 2 and 3 together and f4 and 5 together?


I think limit it to 10.5 motors and allow timing, this should in general allow a driver move up without buying new motors.

The idea being, as an f4 or 5 you can concentrate on learning to drive and basic set up stuff, an f3 can learn more about set up including ESC setup improve driving all without buying new gear.

How about we run the next couple of ordinary club day in this format to see how it pans out? This should give us a good idea if its going to work or not. Maybe if some of the modified guys are to run in the F3 class we could just agree on the day they are not to use timing, and the clubman guys who run in it must keep their 10.5s and can use timing, again just to see how it works.


Cheers
Lee

[MiCk B.]

........

How would you see a normal race day working?

F1 and 2 drivers together in the same heats,
F3 drivers in another heat
F4 and 5 drivers together in heats
And finals split the same

Or would you see it F1, 2 and 3 together and f4 and 5 together?
........


From reading all of this I think we're getting close to a good solid idea.

They way I would see it is that for qualifying, drivers would be in heats based on their F grade along with the number of drivers at the meeting.

Extreme example:
So one F5 Driver three F4 drivers and one F3 driver, with 5 F2 drivers.

The F5/F4/F3 drivers would all be in one heat, the F2 drivers would be in one heat, that would give 5 drivers in each heat.

The idea is to have as many full heats as possible, rather than 2 full mod & clubman heats, with 2 half-full, mod an clubman. It would be better for all racing / marshalling to have 3 full heats, seeded on F grading.

But for the finals it would be based on overall qualifying positions regardless of F status.

So in a championship situation, any of the above 10 drivers could TQ/Win the meeting and score top points for the event. This would include the F5 driver(s).

So using the above example the A-final could be a mix of F5/4/3/2 drivers, similar with the B-final. So on a good day a F5/4/3 can make the A-final, where the worst then can do is last, but best is to win the meeting. But with that the worst a F2(F1) driver could do would be last overall in the meeting.

What I can see this stopping is anyone (in 2wd any way with the numbers we have) automatically making the A-final.

But look at this for an example. A single F4 driver makes qualifying position 8 of an 8 car A-final, finishing last, 8 position in the final, other 7 drivers of the A-final are all F2(1) drivers. In the B-final, there is a mixture of F-grades (F2/3/4).

So overall the F4 driver gets the points for finishing in 8th place in the meeting. But more importantly they are the top finishing F4 driver of the meeting. So if this was a one-off meeting. That F4 driver would be the top F4 driver of the meeting and win the F4 class of the meeting, along side the 8th over-all placing.

MiCk B. :-)

[ian h]

I think you have to forget about the timing issue for F3. As Tony said you could turn off timing but just stick in a hotter motor to get the speed. I'm currently setup up with a 7.5 with 13 degrees advanced timing and 16 boosted. If I took that off I could just go for 6.5 or even a crazy 5.5 with no timing. My current setup is quick enough but importantly everything stays cool.

[h0m3sy]

A lot of very interesting veiw points on the subject. My tuppence worth is, F4+F5 10.5t no timing
F3 10.5t with timing allowed
F2+F1 Anything goes

The top 8 drivers, regardless of formula after qualifying to contest the A main. The next 8 drivers to contest the B final and so on. This would guarantee a good mix of drivers in each final. No marshalling issues either this way. Keep it simple lads.:thumbsup:

[kartstuffer]

You`ve hit the nail on the head Dave
We might actually get Ian out of retirement
I blame him for getting me into this 2wd stuff, giving me a go of his x6 that time.;)

[h0m3sy]

You`ve hit the nail on the head Dave

You can still have Wills idea of a trophy for each formula winner at the end of the season with my idea too. Best F1/F2 Driver, Best F3 Driver, Best F4 Driver and Best F5 driver. So in effect 4 championships within the one championship so to speak. Also at the end of the championship, the best F5 becomes F4 for the following season and the best F4 move to F3. This is where the progression stops at club level, though I would suggest, only on winning a National championship in your Formula can you become( if you wish) an F2 or F1 driver. I hear what Graham is saying regarding the enjoyment he has for the class he is in at the moment. My idea would safeguard everyone because it is optional if you want to move up to F1/2. At the end of the day, we are still a relatively small club, we don'y want to be putting anyone off with too many rules and regulations. As previously said, KEEP IT SIMPLE.:thumbsup:

[tony6187]

You can still have Wills idea of a trophy for each formula winner at the end of the season with my idea too. Best F1/F2 Driver, Best F3 Driver, Best F4 Driver and Best F5 driver. So in effect 4 championships within the one championship so to speak. Also at the end of the championship, the best F5 becomes F4 for the following season and the best F4 move to F3. This is where the progression stops at club level, though I would suggest, only on winning a National championship in your Formula can you become( if you wish) an F2 or F1 driver. I hear what Graham is saying regarding the enjoyment he has for the class he is in at the moment. My idea would safeguard everyone because it is optional if you want to move up to F1/2. At the end of the day, we are still a relatively small club, we don'y want to be putting anyone off with too many rules and regulations. As previously said, KEEP IT SIMPLE.:thumbsup:
one problem i do see with keeping f3 to 10.5 is that those of us who are currently f3 have either got to move up to f2(personaly not quick enough)or stop runing mod(which i have no interest in)on the tracks we run there isnt going to that big a difference between mod and timed 10.5.this can be seen in the results of the last club roundhttp://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f3r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f3r2.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r2.htm
ivan would have finished ahead of me with no timing in all of the finals that day

[celticpanman]

Hi all

There seems to be interest for this.

I would see the current format f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 as been to complicated

I would see the future as probably based around the following

Class 1 10.5 t no timing on esc or motor

Class 2 10.5t with timing or else any motor with no timing on either motor or esc

Class 3 Mod Whatever you want to run

Now i do not know enough about the current esc or brushless motors setup as to what is faster or better so a tweaking will be needed

This would mean only 3 classes to compete during the year.

When you join or start of in the club you start class 1. ( unless you come from another club where your ability is known )

If you win that class YOU HAVE THE OPTION AS A MEMBER TO GO UP to class 2. You do not automatically go up.

It is your choice if you want to better yourself or not.

You can only progress up the class rank when you win the class you are in ( if you do it in the first year great if it takes 3 then it takes 3 ).

When it comes to making heats to avoid 2 or 3 cars in a heat the fastest drivers in class 2 can make up numbers with class 3 and the slower drivers can make numbers up with class 1

this would help marshalling issues aswell.

We must keep this simple and not over regulated. to much of this WILL TURN PEOPLE OFF THIS IS after all a HOBBY

Simple is best

how would this work

graham

[h0m3sy]

one problem i do see with keeping f3 to 10.5 is that those of us who are currently f3 have either got to move up to f2(personaly not quick enough)or stop runing mod(which i have no interest in)on the tracks we run there isnt going to that big a difference between mod and timed 10.5.this can be seen in the results of the last club roundhttp://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f3r1.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f3r2.htm http://www.dublinmodelracing.com/DMCC%20results/Indoor%20Offroad%202011%202012/mtg36/f4r2.htm
ivan would have finished ahead of me with no timing in all of the finals that day

I don't really see your point here Tony, if you reckon your not quick enough for F2 then what is the problem with staying in F3? You said yourself there isn't much difference between running a 10.5t boosted as opposed to a Mod motor round the tracks that we race on. At least if your in F3 with 10.5 boosted you have a chance of winning something at the end of the year if your good enough.:p:thumbsup:

[tony6187]

I don't really see your point here Tony, if you reckon your not quick enough for F2 then what is the problem with staying in F3? You said yourself there isn't much difference between running a 10.5t boosted as opposed to a Mod motor round the tracks that we race on. At least if your in F3 with 10.5 boosted you have a chance of winning something at the end of the year if your good enough.:p:thumbsup:

My point is while there is not much difference in time there is a difference in how the car drives.a 2wd mod is more challenging to drive than one with 10.5 with timing and while I might not be quick I still would rather drive that.the above post highlights that those running 10.5 with timing won't be at a disadvantage.as for championships I'm not pushed about trophies I just would like to race against others of the same pace.with what you are suggesting would put someone who doesn't qualify(not by choice) for f2 would then be forced to run 10.5.I honestly don't understand the need for f3 to be limited to 10.5:D
Keep in mind that under this proposal everyone will be racing against each other in one class (e.g if you Finish 11 overall and are leading f3 driver you still only get 11th overall points,if the next placed f3 is 14th they get 14th overall points on the day.the championship is then calculated by the overall scores of each driver against that of the others in their formula,so you will be racing modifieds anyway.This is my understanding of the proposal and stands to be correctted.

[Legacy555]

Hi guys,

Loving the chat on here at moment.
Can I throw out an idea regarding a motor regulation for F3?
A good compromise could be to limit the motors to 8.5 with timing.
8.5 would represent at half way point between clubman and modified and will be good for both 2wd and 4wd..
What do u think?

[h0m3sy]

10.5 boosted for me I think, I could get it going just as quick as a mod motor, no problem. I'm sure Mark Penney has run a 10.5 boosted round The Naul, so if it's good enough for him, it'll do for me. Only other motor I have is a 7.5t. Wouldn't be able to use it if the limit is 8.5 in F3.

[kartstuffer]

I think were nearly there ,10.5 seems to be the only sticky one.
My choice would be 10.5 esc timing allowed or any motor no esc timing allowed.
As far as Tonys point about putting in a really quick motor i think most in f3 would go slower with a 5.5 or similar because you would lose the driveability and consistency that were after and i would think that an 8.5 untimed would probably be the best (easiest to drive),but allowing the 10.5 in would make it easily accessible to those moving up.
It could also be monitered and adjusted as needed as this would be a first year.

[The Doktor]

My take on the motor thing for f3 is this, bearing in mind that i have a 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 in my motor box.
Because there are a lot moving up, I do get there will be some more experienced drivers, using a 10.5 with timing may be the way to go. This give the drivers moving up the chance to learn about timing and getting it right. With the current escs its not just a case of sticking on a few degrees and away ya go. Its getting rpms, boost, turbos and a heap of other things right for the way they drive.

I get it that some drivers in full mod might look at this as a step back, but I think we should be looking at it more from the point of view of drivers moving up and learning. I really think using a 10.5 in your car is a great way of improving your driving, I feel mine has improved greatly since we started doing proper clubman, where as before i had an 8.5 and a 6.5 in my cars.

[mole2k]

One issue with going 10.5t Boosted rather than full open mod is the fact that you go from needing any old speedo with a modified to keep up to needing a modern up to date speedo with all the bells and whistles that provides.

This is similar to how the BRCA TC's have recently went and I feel it's a massive step-backwards as your effectively introducing money into the equation as a more modern speed controller = more speed.

[Click]

Hi,

The same argument could be said of no timing on ESC (so old ESC can be used etc.) and unlimited motor. We would then need to get a selection of motors to try out, I for one could not say right now what motor would suit my driving style and a particular track.

Also depending on the track & conditions on the day you might need to change motor which is a hassle & more expense.

From talking to a few lads a compromise was running an 8.5T with no timing.

The only disadvantage one racer pointed out was if we want racers to progress with their knowledge of car setup, not allowing ESC changes limits your learning experience and the leap to modified is then a bigger one.

Another suggestion was to allow ESC timing/boost etc. with a 10.5T AND an 8.5T with no timing/boost.

So these are my proposals for the F3 class:

1. 8.5T with NO ESC timing/boost changes (The same as existing Clubman bar the hotter motor)

2. As above but ALSO allow drivers with a 10.5T and ESC timing/boost.

No. 2 above caters for everybody but I'm unsure if it's too complicated to police?

What does everybody think?

Kevin

[kartstuffer]

Just for my tuppence worth
F3 - 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed or any motor with no esc timing.
( from my limited experience, if you put in too hot a motor and can`t drive it you will go slower)
This would allow anyone to move from clubman with a 10.5 motor (even the basic ezrun has timing available) or any current F3 driver to compete.
But re-doing the F grading as Mark is currently down as an F3 driver, we could tie one hand behind his back but he would probably still win anyway;)
As for 4 WD
F5/F4 Clubman 10.5 No esc timing
F3 8.5 No esc timing
F2/F1 Anything goes.
As for the finals on the day .you race in the position you qualify in overall.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????

[h0m3sy]

I agree with you Ivan on all your points except I would leave the F3 as is, and allow anyone new to the formula to run their 10.5t boosted. This would save anyone having to buy new esc's or motors. As you quite rightly stated, it's not always about speed. On yesterdays times, I think you would have qualified 7th in the A Final Mod. Having a good line and a clean run can have you up with the best, clubman or mod.:thumbsup:

[Click]

Just for my tuppence worth
F3 - 10.5 motor with esc timing allowed or any motor with no esc timing.
( from my limited experience, if you put in too hot a motor and can`t drive it you will go slower)
This would allow anyone to move from clubman with a 10.5 motor (even the basic ezrun has timing available) or any current F3 driver to compete.
But re-doing the F grading as Mark is currently down as an F3 driver, we could tie one hand behind his back but he would probably still win anyway;)
As for 4 WD
F5/F4 Clubman 10.5 No esc timing
F3 8.5 No esc timing
F2/F1 Anything goes.
As for the finals on the day .you race in the position you qualify in overall.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????

Hi Ivan,

I think that's spot on, I'd vote yes to this proposal:thumbsup:

Kevin

[kartstuffer]

Just one thing on the grading system ,you can pick which class you enter but the committee would be able to change this based on your average race times or experience.
This would be a trial for the club c/ship (i presume) and on the day you would qualify as per class F1,F2,F3,F4,F5 (amalgamated as deemed necessary on the day) and race your finals based on your overall qualifying time and still score poimts for class results and overall.
This should also make for more equal grids and make marshalling numbers easier.

[The Doktor]

i was just thinking about the whole motor and timing thing. Would it be worth doing a few experiments on this? So that we can try to keep things resonably fair.
Maybe one club day we could take two cars,maybe put a 7.5 in one, and a 10.5 with timing in another, and see if they run similar times. Theres no point in bringing in the motor rules if we find that using one or the other is by far better than the other.
We may find its best to have a limit on motors of some form. Even though we know if you over do the motor and cant drive you actually go slower.


Also a point to note, I found qualifying much better at the nationals as drivers of similar speed were in the same heats. There was no constant trying to get past back markers, or pulling over for faster guys. Was really good and shows this is the way to go.

[colmo]

To get any kind of equivalence e.g. 8.5T non-boost = 10.5 boosted you'd need to run some tests - get the best driver you can, and then get him to set a fast lap with each (in the same car). The more clean lap times, the less the uncertainty (Standard Deviation and all that). The fact you're moving to a new track soon might change that, as boost favours bigger tracks (I think).

I agree with Moley about wallet racing - the touring cars have become absurdly expensive because of the arms race of speed controllers, wear rate, tyres and a new chassis every year. Off-road avoids much of that because the tracks limit the speeds attainable. Thus, in terms of F grades, ability will have a far greater impact than equipment. I'd probably be as fast with a 13.5 as an 8.5 on most tracks, whereas a better driver would be markedly faster.

[kartstuffer]

2 weeks ago we tried that I ran my 10.5 boosted and Mick O`Leary ran his 7.5/8.5 and lap times were very similar i won 1 final and he won 2 but close enough times between us.

[The Doktor]

2 weeks ago we tried that I ran my 10.5 boosted and Mick O`Leary ran his 7.5/8.5 and lap times were very similar i won 1 final and he won 2 but close enough times between us.

And actually, now that i think about it, when I stuck a 6.5 in my 4wd a few weeks ago, there was no real improvement in my times.
I think i need to oil my fingers :D

[Legacy555]

Hi all,

Just to give you an update - the committee discussed this topic at a meeting earlier this week and agreed that there maybe scope for changes to the classes to allow each level of racer to compete for a trophy against drivers of similar ability, but further investigation will be required before considering any changes.

Committee members will be talking to all racers over the next month so that the discussion can proceed with all the facts at the next committee meeting in early June.

More updates after that.