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stevie b
26-03-2012, 09:48 PM
Just wondering if anyone has any opinions on :- why we still only race for 5mins?
Batteries now are so good that racing for 15minutes plus is possible.? i know increasing from 5mins to 15mins is abit of a jump, but i think at least the finals could maybe be 10 or 12mins? After all were all doing this hobby to race, and the more time on the track the better right? :thumbsup:

RandomConflict
26-03-2012, 10:11 PM
I'm with you on this one. I think it all comes down to the amount of available time though to run the meeting. On some of the big meetings, even with 5 minute racing, the final leg of the A Final can finish pretty late in the day! Even with practice starting at 8:30/9am. Realistically I reckon 6/7 minutes maximum at the larger meetings.

I did marshal a 15 minute 1/8 nitro final at a club meeting at Coventry a few weeks back, with the winner being the only electric 1/8th buggy which had been put with the nitros. 15 minutes from an electric 1/8th buggy would have been unheard of in the NiMH days!

bandyleg
26-03-2012, 10:12 PM
10 minutes is quite a long time for a newbie racer and also quite some time for a pro driver to concentrate, I think however the problem would come from over heating as top drivers now a days are running there cars so highly tuned that even another couple of minutes would probably cause a meltdown lol.
How ever at our local club we now run 6 minute finals and we are observing the pros and cons.
It seem so far that the 2 wd guys are happy to run the 6 minutes without too much of a problem, but the 4wd guys are having over heating problems this is more then likely due to the fact they drive like mad men lol.

Thats my 10 pence but there is gonna be a good bunch of arguments for this. personally i am in favour of the extra time :thumbsup:

eyeayen
26-03-2012, 10:34 PM
The 8th Nitro's have always had longer finals and they keep their cars runnings, part of the sport to be able to complete the final. So for it to knock down to the 10th's would be ace.

The brushed motors were always on the limit so people started fitting fans to cool them during the race. Manufacturers need to look at this too.

If the finals went in stages so the bottom 3 were only 5 minutes, then the next few up were maybe 8mins going up to the A final that was 15 minutes for the pro's that would be really good. And I think making your car / motor / ESC last for the race would become part of it.

Chrislong
27-03-2012, 07:01 AM
The motors tend to get hot, and heat weakens the magnet, then that causes them to get hotter - and then you have problems. In the past even when practicing/testing I only ran for 5-6 minutes at a time. Things are better now but still I wouldn't be confident to push it - its expensive gear afterall.

Meetings tend to be over subscribed, to extend race duration would mean having to reduce entries and that wouldn't be popular as already people are getting turned away - i.e.Chadderton, Nationals, NW regionals. But then club meetings is a different story - can be down to the clubs own discretion. :thumbsup:

jaysllim
27-03-2012, 11:44 AM
Down at C.O.B.R.A in wales we already run 6 min heats and finals without a problem,but as said earlier it more comes down to how much time in the day u have.i no the nitros run 10/15 etc etc finals but not heats they have about 2min warm up time on the track nd 5 min qualy. But if u banged in the heats then mby u could look at increasing the qualy timebut again u will have sum one colain sayin I dnt have time to do bla bla bla for a xample.
Just my 2p

hotrodchris
27-03-2012, 04:01 PM
Nitro wise i have seen hour long final's! but the standard is 15 mins, it would be good to have longer finals in 1/10th as the batteries can survive agreed more in 2wd than 4wd, as looking to put about 1500 back into a set after 5mins with the 2wd whereas about 2600 back into a set in 4wd after 5 mins!:woot:

Big paul
27-03-2012, 04:35 PM
The 8th Nitro's have always had longer finals and they keep their cars runnings, part of the sport to be able to complete the final. So for it to knock down to the 10th's would be ace.

The brushed motors were always on the limit so people started fitting fans to cool them during the race. Manufacturers need to look at this too.

If the finals went in stages so the bottom 3 were only 5 minutes, then the next few up were maybe 8mins going up to the A final that was 15 minutes for the pro's that would be really good. And I think making your car / motor / ESC last for the race would become part of it.

This my seem ok. but I for one would not like to pay say £25 for a nat . then find some people paying the same and getting more track time.

eyeayen
27-03-2012, 04:40 PM
This my seem ok. but I for one would not like to pay say £25 for a nat . then find some people paying the same and getting more track time.

That's a fair point and one I hadn't considered. Surely that's even more of an incentive to get better or would it put people off ? Everyone has to start somewhere.

The other thing that could maybe come over from Nitro's is the bump up, I don't know how that would work and if the electric's would cool down enough in between one race and the next but top 3 would bump up to the next final, that would mean more track time.

WHITTLER555
27-03-2012, 04:45 PM
If you want to run for a long time then I suggest you get a team together for next years York Ebor 24 hour race.

With 6 drivers we ran 1 hour long stints each, the Durango 210 ran faultlessly for 24 hours, 8.5T motor, no fan, Nosram Pearl speedo.

Believe me, after 24 hours you won't want to run for more than 5 minutes for the rest of the year!

mark christopher
27-03-2012, 04:51 PM
This my seem ok. but I for one would not like to pay say £25 for a nat . then find some people paying the same and getting more track time.

well they do for 8th nationals and thier full.......

Loheswaran
27-03-2012, 05:09 PM
I think they already run 6 minutes in the united states.

I think it would be good if perhaps the finals are stretched to 8 or 10 minutes. then people won't be racing to late into the evening at certain meetings.

I have to say that my buggy electrics simply do not take the same mullering as either my touring car or my 1/12.

I am well happy with my switch to off-road. Just can't wait for my knee op to heal and my chest infection to clear up and I will be doing regular weekly club racing asap.

lohan

s22jgs
27-03-2012, 05:49 PM
i quite often do 30 minute runs on a practice day with my 2wd.

I really dont see why we cant have one 15 or 20 minute final rather than 3.

If overheating is an issue due to running the motors so advanced then people would have to ramp it down a bit... every other form of motorsport has to make a compromise between performance and finishing the race.

Apart from anything else, a longer race gives more chance of reward for the slower but more consistent drivers.

It also helps do away a little with the fact that top drivers get given tyres, and those with money can afford a new set every run.

Si Coe
27-03-2012, 10:39 PM
When this has been proposed at club level before its generally been considered this way - you can have say 10 min finals and 3 rounds of qualifying, or 5 min finals and 4 rounds. The length of the day, and the time on the track - stays the same.
In nitro the key feature of the longer final is the fuel stop - in effect the race has to be longer than a tanks worth to force you to refuel. Any electric race longer than 5 mins, but not long enough to need a battery change does not have this need, so can really be considered as a conventional final, but over more laps.
In this respect I fail to see the advantage. Few races would end significantly differently after 6, 7, 8 mins than the running order at 5. True there are lots of races with last lap dramatic maneuvers but these are a sprint to the finish and would simply occur after 8 mins not 5.
The only effect is the greater emphasis on reliability and endurance. One of the beautiful features of the modern era is that even at entry level drivers can have cars that can run at full race pace for 5 mins without worry. In the past, having the best cells used to really make a difference, but now it doesn't.

I just figure that really 1/10th offroad is all about sprint racing. Endurance racing is a different concept.

smokes
27-03-2012, 10:59 PM
hasn't this argument been discussed for two or more years and has got shot down in flames?

I think the main reason was getting the amount of racing done in a day is dependant on the amount of drivers. More drivers at meeting means you have limited amount of time to do the heats. Hence 5 or 6 mins had been settled on. I suspect we can easily go to 8 min racing like 1/12th scale but that might take some time to get organised / used to.

hotrodchris
27-03-2012, 11:12 PM
1/8th nitro un 4 or 5 quallies plus 15min bump up finals and normally finish at a resonable time and their 5 min quallies include a 2 min warm up as well.
Well established tracks like Slough will often get 100 plus drivers turning up to run so is time really that much of a problem if it can be done by them?:confused:

Robbiejuk
27-03-2012, 11:48 PM
1/8th nitro un 4 or 5 quallies plus 15min bump up finals and normally finish at a resonable time and their 5 min quallies include a 2 min warm up as well.
Well established tracks like Slough will often get 100 plus drivers turning up to run so is time really that much of a problem if it can be done by them?:confused:

They don't have to recharge though.

s22jgs
28-03-2012, 10:03 AM
They don't have to recharge though.

There is still usually at least 40 minutes between heats in nitro. they have no quicker turn around than electric. i much prefer nitro because in my eyes a race should be a test of all areas, speed, skill, reliability, endurance...

In any case, if the finals were made 15 minutes not 3x5 then you save time anyway by not having so many change overs between so many runs

ASR
28-03-2012, 01:13 PM
The fact that a club racer has no real disadvantage over a team driver regarding equipment e.g motors and batteries was one of the main reasons myself and quite a few others i know got back into this hobby.

I'm so glad the days of skimming motors, matching cells, changing brush compounds going steady on the gearing, switching the thing on at the last possible minute.........to still dump on the last lap are a distant memory.

In those days you had to constantly spend a fortune on the latest batteries which were the best performers........but not quite as good as the sponsored guy down the local track.

There is more scope than ever before for people to mess with thier cars if thats what people are after, as they have never been more adjustable and you don't have to constantly spend a fortune replacing and matching cells.

I think at big meetings it should remain the same as it is, the day is long enough already, the number of entries should also stay the same, otherwise it wouldm't be a big meeting.

At smaller meetings - clubbys, just have more qualy rounds and open practice for 10 mins between rounds like we do!, plently of track time then with no fear of dumping or going back in time and isolating any type of racer.

Razer
28-03-2012, 02:07 PM
In Norway, we first switched to seven minutes, and then to eight two years ago. Running eight minutes is ok. The race is a bit longer, you can get into a rythm, and you get more running during race day.

We have one problem though. All international racing is still five minutes, and it's a lot harder adjusting back to the intensity you need with that, than it is to run longer heats. But I feel 8 minutes has really been a good thing, as it feels a lot longer, yet it's still short enough so that you get the intensity that I love about electric racing.

Of course, we can run 20-30 minutes and more, but then we take away some of the intensity and make strategy in terms of tire wear and heat for that matter a lot more important. In my eyes? Boooring:-P

scotty_big_flip
28-03-2012, 07:40 PM
longer finals, always a hot topic (for the 4wd boys lol) but if you are good enuf to lead whatever final you are in from start to finish be it buggy TC or Nitro racing then i supose the extra minute may feel like an unnecessary complication, but if ur battling for every place or working youre way thru the field after a bad start then every second/lap always seems to count, for me anyway. usualy after spending half the first lap doing turtle impresions http://slmcc.freeforums.org/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif so im all game for longer finals

TARTMAN
06-04-2012, 11:47 PM
I agree with many coments.
The old days of 5 min 10 seconds and dead, thank god there gone forever. etc etc....

I say, Qualifying heats still normal 5 mins, But finals maybe 6 or 7 minutes.

would not add much time to the day, unless a 120 driver day of course, but club level would be easy enough i think.......

worth a try maybe........:woot:

bandyleg
10-04-2012, 07:46 PM
longer finals, always a hot topic (for the 4wd boys lol) but if you are good enuf to lead whatever final you are in from start to finish be it buggy TC or Nitro racing then i supose the extra minute may feel like an unnecessary complication, but if ur battling for every place or working youre way thru the field after a bad start then every second/lap always seems to count, for me anyway. usualy after spending half the first lap doing turtle impresions http://slmcc.freeforums.org/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif so im all game for longer finals

I couldnt agree more mr big flip :D the last meet was a perfect example you were in the lead and one mistake cost you time there was just no chance of getting back.
The longer finals in our local club seems to have made a big difference as the boys who were running on the limit and usually leading seem to have toned it down a bit and now running at a slightly lesser pace and the rest of the racers now have a fighting chance.

I think If you have money to throw at your hobby then breaking something isnt an issue but for your average joe money plays a big part because if your trying to drive on the limit all the time then its going to cost as at some point your gonna self destruct lol, if its toned down a touch and you dont have to drive like you stole the thing just to keep up then it gives us less fortunate ones a chance to show we can drive at a consistent pace and do well without the hobby being a marriage breaker financially.

Im not a fast driver by a long shot but for me the extra minute has made a big difference to my mental attitude towards how i drive, I cant explain it but I dont feel like im on a mad dash for the finish line and seem to settle better.

ALL HALE LONGER RACE :lol:

ironmangav
10-04-2012, 08:33 PM
10 minutes is quite a long time for a newbie racer and also quite some time for a pro driver to concentrate, I think however the problem would come from over heating as top drivers now a days are running there cars so highly tuned that even another couple of minutes would probably cause a meltdown lol.
How ever at our local club we now run 6 minute finals and we are observing the pros and cons.
It seem so far that the 2 wd guys are happy to run the 6 minutes without too much of a problem, but the 4wd guys are having over heating problems this is more then likely due to the fact they drive like mad men lol.

Thats my 10 pence but there is gonna be a good bunch of arguments for this. personally i am in favour of the extra time :thumbsup:

Agree start at 1min at a time if this works im sure tech will develop and can run for longer times in both 2wd and 4wd.:thumbsup:

VincentVisser
11-04-2012, 12:29 PM
We run 5min heats and a 5 min final.

Depending on people there we can do 3-5 heats and a final.

We run 540, 2wd and 4wd so if we have lots of people there on the day itís a bit manic. + if all the international events are 5mins you would want to be as prepared for them as possible so 5 min is a good time.

Mad-Wolfie
11-04-2012, 01:16 PM
I know last year when we did the 24 hour event we were getting 15-20 minutes from a 5000 LiPo before it needed changing, however we were running at a more moderate pace using a silvercan based motor & a basic speedo rather than a top spec low turn brushless & ESC.

Personally i think though as the tech has improved from brushed motors, the battery tech has equally improved, for instance a 1600 mah nicad in the late 80's was probably only lasting as long as a modern day LiPo does with modern tech strapped to it because the tech in the 80's car was more basic & not demanding as much from the battery as todays technology so run times are generally the same from a fully charged pack.

I know with 1:12th scale we are running 8 minutes in nationals & competition, however the cars are running on the flat & are running single-cell liPo so the current drain is a lot less.

Plus with the on-road classes it's a level surface so the amount you use in a battery during in a race is fairly consistent wherever you go to race a 12th, but with off-road i find battery use to be very inconsistent from track-to-track using anything from 900mah to 1900mah during a 5 min run because the car is running on a more 3 dimensional circuit that 12th's or tourers etc & no 2 circuits are the same. Likewise wet weather or warm weather affects the performance & the battery life so although it may be the same track, the going may be a lot harder if it rains, where with 12th, all the races are held indoors, so the track conditions are generally the same & not affected by sunlight or weather conditions which can affect the performance. Granted 12th's have the same problems with grip levels & finding the right tyres etc, but the 12ths always run on carpet, buggies run on any surface, astro, carpet, grass, dirt etc which affect the performance & the weather or heat can affect how that surface reacts on the tyres.

jmke
11-04-2012, 01:40 PM
Personally i think though as the tech has improved from brushed motors, the battery tech has equally improved, for instance a 1600 mah nicad in the late 80's was probably only lasting as long as a modern day LiPo does with modern tech strapped to it because the tech in the 80's car was more basic & not demanding as much from the battery as todays technology so run times are generally the same from a fully charged pack.

uhm? top rated batteries lasted 4-8min on average in the old days
Lipo 5000mah lasts 15min easily, if you run more moderate motors & timings you can close in on 30min...

fredswain
11-04-2012, 08:42 PM
When I raced in the 80's we got our cars as light as possible since weight takes power to move and more weight takes more power. We geared based on if we could finish the race or not and not on motor temperature or necessarily the best gearing for the track based on speed. It was definitely a game of strategy and trade-offs. Motors and batteries both ran super hot and we needed heat sinks on the motors to help them stay cool. Motors got cleaned out after each heat which helped cool them. Brushes got resurfaced or replaced. Batteries got the discharge light bulb hooked up to them and were then thrown right back on the quick 15 minute charger while still hot to get it charged in time for it's next use. This was tough on batteries and motors. A 5 minute main was an eternity!

Today motors and esc's stay cool. I can get a half an hour of runtime and still be able to touch my motors. The problem is trying to keep the car together for that long on our harder modern tracks. We actually do vary race and qualifying lengths based on attendance. If there are lots of people with many heats to run, we'll do 5 minute qualifiers with a 7-8 minute main. If we get a slow night with less people then we may run 7-8 minute qualifiers with a 10 minute main. Sometimes we have 2 qualifiers and sometimes we have 3. We've even had a 15 minute main. Most prefer to keep it to 10 or under. Keep in mind that some places follow ROAR rules (at least some here do) and they have rules for heat lengths.

Col
12-04-2012, 01:45 PM
We run 5min heats and a 5 min final.

Depending on people there we can do 3-5 heats and a final.

We run 540, 2wd and 4wd so if we have lots of people there on the day itís a bit manic. + if all the international events are 5mins you would want to be as prepared for them as possible so 5 min is a good time.

Last year we did several quieter meetings with 4 rounds and 7min finals. I found it made no difference to overall finishing positions

jmke
12-04-2012, 03:04 PM
I found it made no difference to overall finishing positions

I don't think that's the aim?
rather to have more time running your car when going out for a race day.

I went to several race events last and this year at BRCC in Charlerloi, Belgium; race days starts at 8:00, lasts until 18:00. To get any kind of practice , arrive at 7:00, which means get up at 5:00 in the morning.

3 qualif and 3 heats of 5min each. Which means you drive your car for a total of 30min, while spending 11 hours at the track.

If I go to the track on a none-race day; almost every minute spend at the track is driving your car :)

Si Coe
12-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Yes, but the length of the race day is a result of all the races added together because the track isn't sitting idle for long at all. Longer races means a longer day - an extra minute on your race is also an extra minute to everyone elses too, which for a big meeting means an extra 10-12 minutes per round. In other words for your 6 round meeting thats an extra 6 minutes track time for at least an extra hour at the track:
30 mins in 11hours or 36 mins in 12 hours - hardly an improvement!

That is the myth that needs to be busted here. Longer races cannot mean more time on track without also making the race day longer. Its not just your race that gets more time, its everyones!

jmke
12-04-2012, 07:04 PM
you are correct; not stating that it should be changed; but just finding it a bit sad to spend a whole day at the racetrack on raceday and only drive 30min ;)

flipside
29-05-2012, 05:32 PM
True, but there is no way around it, is there :-)? Si Coe's explanation is a simple fact, nothing to do about it.

Here in Belgium, at some club races, they do 7 or 8 minute finals, which is perfectly possible with 5 or 6 heats in total. Also todays material is up to it, even in 4WD. We did a 12H race, ran similar pace as we did on that tracks national event, and could easily run 20 minutes in 2WD, so 7-8 minutes should be easy :-)

The extra minutes help to practise concentration, so it's no disadvantage when you switch back to 5mins on a bigger event (in fact it is an advantage).

Some people want nitro style bump up finals and then a longer A main to get more runtime. But then you take away runtime from people who don't get in the A main, or who don't bump up 7 finals.

So I like it the way it is now, same amount of track time for everyone (except at reeeeeeally big races as only the A main gets 3 runs).

Naushad
29-05-2012, 06:01 PM
Currently as a novice driver I find 5-6 minutes a long time for me to concentrate intensely. So it's more than enough for me!

CharlieF
29-05-2012, 09:49 PM
I have not commented on this thread previously simply because if you want to accommodate as many drivers as possible at an event, 5 minute races are the only way to go unless events run until darkness desends (Club race meetings with less than 40-60 entrants excepted)..
A brilliant European event; the Belgian GP limits competitors to 90 (unlike UK Nationals which are 120) and still cant accommodate all the drivers who wish to take part because the format they run finishes well into the evening!. Although out of touch with the Belgian GP these days I am fairly certain that if you havent booked in on day one or two of entries opening you are still unlikely to get in!
So, as I am sure has been said previously Club numbers are such that they can run what race length they like. However if their drivers wish to progress to Regional/National/International standard they need to be good over 5 minutes.
Regards.

Benh
30-05-2012, 12:08 AM
The only way it would make sense (time efficiency wise) is to run something like 10mins and run 2 qualy heats. This would save between 1-2 mins transition time per round. (Based on previous 4qualy heats)

For 12 heats, that's about 48 mins max, over a day of qualy. That enables an equal distribution of additional racing time of approx 4 minutes. Or finishing the day about 3/4 an hour earlier. Or giving some finals 2 or 3 legs.

I wouldn't vote it in.

metalmickey0
30-05-2012, 08:50 AM
We at WORM now run 5 minute heats , then 6 minutes finals WITH bump-ups depending on time. Some people didnt believe us when i said youve bumped up.( Mr Knight:D) So 2 runs is no probs

DCM
30-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Just a heads up, indoors during the winter, we run 6 min heats, it gives you more track time, but we don't have 40 people racing either. We recently moved outdoors on grass, 6 mins and you had some peoples car's thermalling and desoldering, so we dropped back to five mins and added an extra final in for good measure.

mark christopher
30-05-2012, 12:29 PM
you are correct; not stating that it should be changed; but just finding it a bit sad to spend a whole day at the racetrack on raceday and only drive 30min ;)
go race nitro?

Si Coe
30-05-2012, 02:28 PM
What might be worth considering though is instead of 3 leg A-finals at nationals and regionals how about a single 15 minute final. That give more time to recover from a mistake, and those guys can keep the pace for that length of time.
As a bonus, thats 2 less 2-3min transitions between heats so you could then make the B final 10 minutes long as well.
No overall change to the length of the day, same track time for the A guys (but a different challenge) and a boost for the B final guys. Also might change the winners circle a bit as longer finals might suit some more than others.

footey
30-05-2012, 02:36 PM
dont think the winners would change as the guys who win nationals are also top drivers at nitro so race longer finals than 15 mins anway but would be more fun for the spectacors

TARTMAN
30-05-2012, 02:39 PM
I know modern lipos/motors/esc's are good, but dont think you could run a 4wd for 15 mins without dumping or at the very least thermalling/melting everything inside the car lol............:woot:

Big G
30-05-2012, 02:40 PM
I think there is a lot of excitement knowing the race is only 5 minutes long. if you had a 15 minute race and you stuffed it at the start you'd have loads of time to push hard and catch up. In 5 minutes you don't have that option so the pressure is there to do well for the whole race.

I've run my 4wd for 20 minutes at racing speed with no issues on thermalling outdoors. it wasn't winter either is was average UK weather.

TARTMAN
30-05-2012, 02:45 PM
I think there is a lot of excitement knowing the race is only 5 minutes long. if you had a 15 minute race and you stuffed it at the start you'd have loads of time to push hard and catch up. In 5 minutes you don't have that option so the pressure is there to do well for the whole race.

I've run my 4wd for 20 minutes at racing speed with no issues on thermalling outdoors. it wasn't winter either is was average UK weather.

I have seen many in practice times thermal, and in my SC, with fan on both the motor and the esc, they were fine, but the lipo got that hot it melted the connector, still working but at an angle now lol.... OK, i have a 5.5t in it and its 4wd and yes its damn quick..... but no way would i ever get 20 mins out of it even with my 5100mah cells........:confused:

mark christopher
30-05-2012, 04:40 PM
What might be worth considering though is instead of 3 leg A-finals at nationals and regionals how about a single 15 minute final. That give more time to recover from a mistake, and those guys can keep the pace for that length of time.
As a bonus, thats 2 less 2-3min transitions between heats so you could then make the B final 10 minutes long as well.
No overall change to the length of the day, same track time for the A guys (but a different challenge) and a boost for the B final guys. Also might change the winners circle a bit as longer finals might suit some more than others.

dont think the winners would change as the guys who win nationals are also top drivers at nitro so race longer finals than 15 mins anway but would be more fun for the spectacors
the guys who are at the top of nationals also do 8th rally cross and are used to longer finals, you can allways tell an electric racer at thier first few ic meetings, they start loosing concentration after 5 mins...

jmke
30-05-2012, 05:25 PM
go race nitro?

power delivery doesn't change amount of drivers, heats and time limit :thumbdown:

mark christopher
30-05-2012, 07:53 PM
power delivery doesn't change amount of drivers, heats and time limit :thumbdown:

no but you automatically get longer finals, well in the uk anyhow :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

09 lex 250
02-06-2012, 03:43 AM
the electronics are designe to run 6 min for 1/10 and 1/8 e buggy 10 min but i think all quals should be at least 7 min and 10 min mains fror 1/10 and 20 for 1/8 e buggy nitros can handle hour long mains but the motor will start to lose compression if you run hour long mains twice a week

mark christopher
02-06-2012, 08:20 AM
sorry but there not diesigned to run for a set time!
the only reason an engine looses compression if you run 2 1 hour finals a week is because its being used, its exactly the same as doing 4 x half hour finals.....