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Slider SCT 19-09-2015 11:52 PM

So dropping the bad rounds out of a day..........still sounds like what we have now but with heat changes or am I still missing something? (in not that bright,it's easy done! ;-)

You originally made the point about poor driving standards, if you put points on every round, in my opinion you'll multiply that issue as a better finish carries more points therefore drivers will go for the best finish possible. The majority of finals at this level tend to have slower results due to the fighting for and defending of positions, your proposal basically measn 6-7 races of that type

I fail to see how this will improve and nullify your original problem with driving standards

Legend Racer 20-09-2015 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slider SCT (Post 926351)
So dropping the bad rounds out of a day..........still sounds like what we have now but with heat changes or am I still missing something? (in not that bright,it's easy done! ;-)

There's the possibility of dropping the bad rounds, if you have worse rounds elsewhere then you don't drop any at all. You drop so many bad score in a year not necessarily in a day.
Now you have to drop some or is it one? each race day which means if your first three races are crap you still have some reason to be there with this sytem as you can still score some very good points, unlike now where you're stuck in a bad final getting poor points because two or three quali's didn't go well. If they were step-up finals then this wouldn't be as big an issue but they're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slider SCT (Post 926351)
You originally made the point about poor driving standards, if you put points on every round, in my opinion you'll multiply that issue as a better finish carries more points therefore drivers will go for the best finish possible. The majority of finals at this level tend to have slower results due to the fighting for and defending of positions, your proposal basically measn 6-7 races of that type

Don't we all drive for the best finish anyway, even in the heats, we always want to beat the truck in front, even though you probably started 5 seconds later, the racing instinct still tells most of us to race and beat that other truck. I'm not saying we all do it but I bet the majority of us do, so if we're going to race in a heat then why not make it a race? There's generally been no worse driving in the finals than in the heats so there shouldn't be any less or any more contact.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Slider SCT (Post 926351)
I fail to see how this will improve and nullify your original problem with driving standards

Driving standards will not change but at least your day isn't ruined like it is now by getting T-boned in two heats

Justingt5 21-09-2015 09:28 AM

Ive been racking my brains about how we could change up the format, and to be fair I have gone around in circles, the format we use now is closest to that outlined by IFMAR I think from what I have researched. It is very very difficult to come up with something any better.

However after about 10 non starting ideas I think I may have come up with a decent half way house format that would not upset too many people and make for a more fun meeting.

FLAME THROWERS AT THE READY HERE GOES:
  • 2 rounds of Staggered (current style) Quali - using the rocket round format so fastest time counts for rankings and this would sort the order for the next stage.
    |
  • 2 Rounds of PRE FINALS (still effectively qualifying) - Heads up racing against the clock. Starting together on the same clock in rows of 2 side by side, with double grid spot spacing. Scoring still done overall on time as it is now.
    |
  • RESORT THE GRIDS FOR MAIN FINALS - Overall quali position made up from best result in each phase of quali - so best 1 from the staggered rounds and best 1 from the Heads up rounds.
    |
  • 3 Finals as they are now. 2 to count With added points for drivers finishing ahead of their Qual position (1pt per place)
|
  • 2pts for the fastest lap of the day, however if the fastest lap is set by a driver who took max points for Qual and Finals then it goes to the next fastest lap.
    |
  • Points for Finals would be 105pts for first to mitigate the risk of being beaten on points by someone who came 2nd but made up places to get there.
    |
  • Possibility of adding a 1 round SuperFinal for the top 3 drivers from the top 3 heats for some extra points or some other incentive??

    Points only for finals - No points for quali, THIS IS RACING NOT TIME ATTACK!!!!:thumbsup:
|
Im sure there are a few holes in this as there is with our current system, but this coupled with a proper enforceable penalty system I genuinely think it could help. Its still four rounds of quali and 3 finals as it is now, just made 2 of the quali rounds heads up style so everyone can get more experience of wheel to wheel racing, get to know the cars your up against. Which means by the time you get to the MAIN finals everyone will be that be less nervous and overall more comfortable in the group they are in thus "hopefully" leading to a bit more respect on the day.

A more readable version here: See Proposed Idea 2. (plus another Idea too) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Legend Racer 21-09-2015 09:38 AM

How easy is that for the guy on the computer, does the modern system allow for two different types of qualifying and sorting them into finals or would it all have to be done manually?

Justingt5 21-09-2015 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend Racer (Post 926511)
How easy is that for the guy on the computer, does the modern system allow for two different types of qualifying and sorting them into finals or would it all have to be done manually?

To be fair Ive no idea, they are both types of races that already exist as the Pre finals would be run in final format or heads up qualifying (start at the same time), then the times sorted for positions overall as opposed to finishing positions scoring points, the other 5rds are the same formats we run now. Its surely possible but how much work it would be I do not know.

Justingt5 21-09-2015 10:25 AM

I just downloaded a couple or trials for RC timing software, and as general rule it does look like all the options are there, it would appear its a case of creating a new event profile with all the relevant options for the format selected, then you add racers to the event as they would for any other.

So yes it looks possible with a little bit of setting up within the timing software.

JohnM 21-09-2015 12:13 PM

If you want it based around more racing, just use the Reedy system, everyone gets to race everyone at some point, bundle starts, 1 point for a race win, 2 for second etc, lowest points score is pole in the A, fastest time only used as a tie breaker.

It will take more time to set up, and is a pain if someone books in on the day, although you could always leave a space open in a heat to slot late entries in.

We used to do something like it at the Lawford Buggy Club as few years back, was always good fun.

Slider SCT 21-09-2015 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justingt5 (Post 926510)
FLAME THROWERS AT THE READY HERE GOES:
  • 2 rounds of Staggered (current style) Quali - using the rocket round format so fastest time counts for rankings and this would sort the order for the next stage.
    |
  • 2 Rounds of PRE FINALS (still effectively qualifying) - Heads up racing against the clock. Starting together on the same clock in rows of 2 side by side, with double grid spot spacing. Scoring still done overall on time as it is now.
    |
  • RESORT THE GRIDS FOR MAIN FINALS - Overall quali position made up from best result in each phase of quali - so best 1 from the staggered rounds and best 1 from the Heads up rounds.
    |
  • 3 Finals as they are now. 2 to count With added points for drivers finishing ahead of their Qual position (1pt per place)
|
  • 2pts for the fastest lap of the day, however if the fastest lap is set by a driver who took max points for Qual and Finals then it goes to the next fastest lap.
    |
  • Points for Finals would be 105pts for first to mitigate the risk of being beaten on points by someone who came 2nd but made up places to get there.
    |
  • Possibility of adding a 1 round SuperFinal for the top 3 drivers from the top 3 heats for some extra points or some other incentive??

    Points only for finals - No points for quali, THIS IS RACING NOT TIME ATTACK!!!!:thumbsup:
|
Im sure there are a few holes in this as there is with our current system, but this coupled with a proper enforceable penalty system I genuinely think it could help. Its still four rounds of quali and 3 finals as it is now, just made 2 of the quali rounds heads up style so everyone can get more experience of wheel to wheel racing, get to know the cars your up against. Which means by the time you get to the MAIN finals everyone will be that be less nervous and overall more comfortable in the group they are in thus "hopefully" leading to a bit more respect on the day.

Ok flame thrower lit!!!
Say you break in the 1st of either segment of your qually system and can't get out for the second...............50% of your qually score is lost............see you in the z final!

Ever watched any 1:1 racing where a full on race decides your qualifying for the main event? , it's usually brings out the 'axe murderer' in certain drivers.............we all know a few that will drive through you rather than wait for a clean passing opportunity

Why give additional points for a 2nd fastest lap if the fastest lap is achieved by the final winning driver? No reward for consistency and skill, let's make no2 special??

Driver starts 10th finishes 1st 114 points , driver starts 1st finishes 2nd what's he get 99? Hmmmm:, sounds like a good excuse for sand bagging and more bumping and bashing as the sand baggers make their way through the field..........it will happen, I've seen it in bump up finals!

Justingt5 21-09-2015 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnM (Post 926541)
If you want it based around more racing, just use the Reedy system, everyone gets to race everyone at some point, bundle starts, 1 point for a race win, 2 for second etc, lowest points score is pole in the A, fastest time only used as a tie breaker.

It will take more time to set up, and is a pain if someone books in on the day, although you could always leave a space open in a heat to slot late entries in.

We used to do something like it at the Lawford Buggy Club as few years back, was always good fun.

Ive read about this format, I didnt go down this route as I know a lot of the guys like the amount of qualifying we currently have, also how do you seed the heats? Open practice sessions? Hot Lap qualifying?

Justingt5 21-09-2015 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slider SCT (Post 926543)
Ok flame thrower lit!!!
Say you break in the 1st of either segment of your qually system and can't get out for the second...............50% of your qually score is lost............see you in the z final!

Ever watched any 1:1 racing where a full on race decides your qualifying for the main event? , it's usually brings out the 'axe murderer' in certain drivers.............we all know a few that will drive through you rather than wait for a clean passing opportunity

Why give additional points for a 2nd fastest lap if the fastest lap is achieved by the final winning driver? No reward for consistency and skill, let's make no2 special??

Driver starts 10th finishes 1st 114 points , driver starts 1st finishes 2nd what's he get 99? Hmmmm:, sounds like a good excuse for sand bagging and more bumping and bashing as the sand baggers make their way through the field..........it will happen, I've seen it in bump up finals!

This is why I put it out there, as I said im sure its full of holes, the fact is we spend too much time doing Time Attack and not a lot of racing, and thats the bit I wanted to change, with the format I suggested you still get 4rds of qualifying with 50% counting and it would be the same for all, but in that you get 2 more proper races as such?

To get 114pts you would need to go from the 10th to first in the A final, and when has that ever happened in the history of the UK SC nats LOL but I do get your point. You could always bump up and relegate the top and bottom 2 drivers from each final for the last final, that should ward off the sand baggers.

The fastest lap pts would be so that it would make the championship much tighter at the top as it would allow more chances for others to catch them up, no one likes a domination, its an incentive, but to that end, if you already have MAX points then 2 more will just make that person pretty well untouchable in the standings.

There will always be times when it doesnt go our way (look at A1) but thats racing. Proper prep and all that, no format can allow for this unless you do 7 rounds of Time Attached with only your BEST 1 to count?

Legend Racer 21-09-2015 02:06 PM

The biggest problem with how it is, is that qualifying is actually racing, like it or not that's how it always pans out for most of us, and I'm not sure there's any way of preventing that is there? I think having less trucks in the heats would help and spacing the stagger more so hopefully they're further apart, but having less in heats means less marshals and more time needed in the day.

JohnM 21-09-2015 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justingt5 (Post 926545)
Ive read about this format, I didnt go down this route as I know a lot of the guys like the amount of qualifying we currently have, also how do you seed the heats? Open practice sessions? Hot Lap qualifying?

No seeding needed. As I said, everyone races against everyone at some point & the cream always rises to the top.

Slider SCT 21-09-2015 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend Racer (Post 926559)
The biggest problem with how it is, is that qualifying is actually racing, like it or not that's how it always pans out for most of us, and I'm not sure there's any way of preventing that is there? I think having less trucks in the heats would help and spacing the stagger more so hopefully they're further apart, but having less in heats means less marshals and more time needed in the day.

The only way to actually make qualifying as it should be is to make the racing zero contact and have several refs handing out proper penalties, one ref can't see everything or you make the marshalls themselves referees but that opens a can of worms as some pay no attention and use the time for a rest!.
Less trucks = less marshalls = longer to get marshalled so that's a no no.

Spacing the stagger,hmmm ok on large tracks, on short laps car 10 isn't far off being physically 'lapped' as soon as it starts. This happens a lot at my local club where laps are 11-15 seconds

Slider SCT 21-09-2015 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justingt5 (Post 926547)
This is why I put it out there, as I said im sure its full of holes, the fact is we spend too much time doing Time Attack and not a lot of racing, and thats the bit I wanted to change, with the format I suggested you still get 4rds of qualifying with 50% counting and it would be the same for all, but in that you get 2 more proper races as such?

To get 114pts you would need to go from the 10th to first in the A final, and when has that ever happened in the history of the UK SC nats LOL but I do get your point. You could always bump up and relegate the top and bottom 2 drivers from each final for the last final, that should ward off the sand baggers.

The fastest lap pts would be so that it would make the championship much tighter at the top as it would allow more chances for others to catch them up, no one likes a domination, its an incentive, but to that end, if you already have MAX points then 2 more will just make that person pretty well untouchable in the standings.

There will always be times when it doesnt go our way (look at A1) but thats racing. Proper prep and all that, no format can allow for this unless you do 7 rounds of Time Attached with only your BEST 1 to count?

We actually do 5 or 6 mins or 1 rd more qualifying than finals not exactly a lot is it? and it's done more in favour
of the inconsistent or unlucky with only 2 rds counting.

I think you misunderstood my point,generally, no,the guy in 10th isn't going to come through to take the win BECAUSE at the moment the emphasis is on doing well in both qually and finals, chuck in a possible 9 point bonus and see if the system gets abused............ Of course it will

We used to have one guy when we raced nitro that used to sand bag blatantly, every meeting he'd bump up 2 or 3 finals (finals at 20 mins) why track time we'd be standing around for 1-2hrs as the finals progressed by the time we came to race he has a better knowledge of track conditions and can make adjustments between finals to suit, I think something similar would happen if you introduced bonus points per position gained.

Let's face it, at the uksn we get the day previous to practice something you rarely get at higher level buggy events, if we can't get our s&@t together with a days practice and get on the pace of the few regular top guys thats our problem not the systems. They turn up on the day do a few tweeks and are instantly topping the time sheets.........get used to it,it's like that in most forms of rc and motorsport. That's years of experience for you

Justingt5 21-09-2015 03:58 PM

Theres always going to be scope for those to abuse regardless of the system, I would just prefer to have more PROPER RACES in the day. Practice makes perfect, we know practicing the day before doesnt help at all for the finals when your up against 9 others as; most people will have spent the day before doing their own thing on not worrying about racing others. More RACING means more experience, which over time will improve everyones racing ability when it comes to wheel to wheel action.

Fundamentally I dont agree with points for qualifying, we come to RACE not to do time trials as I said before, if people want to do that we should drop the finals and HEADS UP grid starts and just do Time Attack 2 at a time 5 laps then the next lot. Racing is not all about being the fastest outright on the day, its about cirucumstance/luck/prep/skill all coming together at the same time; racing is about swapping positions and battling for position and having a blast at the same time.

I have had some epic battles on track this year and would love to have more of the same, yeah we get odd round where its our turn to be the target and get battered all over the shop, but this happens in every discipline not just trucks.

Simply put More Racing Action PLEASE.

PS im liking the sound of the Reedy race format more and more!!

trevron73 21-09-2015 04:48 PM

Hot laps qualifying could work , just like F1 have a 15 minute window where all in the allotted heat runners can go out after practice and get to smash out a lap in race conditions and fastest gets pole simple ?

1rcdad 21-09-2015 04:59 PM

so if we are to change things to get cleaner racing,we need to look at the tracks we race on,they are mainly designed for 1/10 scale buggys and not for 1/8 scale .The tracks tend to be one racing line so overtaking is always going to be difficult,hence most overtakes are done by shoving it up the inside,if people learned to actually concede the corner rather than trying to shut the door when you are already there the racing would be a lot cleaner.I have refereed many races and it is not easy when 2 trucks are fighting for the same piece of track,some times it is just a racing accident with no one to blame or both drivers.I would not like to start imposing penalties unless it was a blatant take out.

Team 36 21-09-2015 06:01 PM

My local club tried out 4 rounds off qualifying and 3 finals to count for every one everyone was happy with that or there is shootouts final where say top 15 at the the final's race go though run 3 final 1st final all start / 2nd final top 10 go though / 3rd final top 5 start find the over all winner

Justingt5 21-09-2015 08:02 PM

To be honest I don't it's necessarily the tracks, some are tight like mendip, but most are OK. it's more to do with the fact that as was said drivers simply won't concede corners?? I've had to on many occasions it's just how racing works. But most crashes I've had tend to be where I've had more speed into the corner and gone for a gap but then another driver sees it late shuts the door?

More racing and less qualifying is the long term answer, the more you race together the better the driving will get simple. Short term it may be a crash fest but it won't take long for people to get used to it.


I quite like the hitblaps idea but I'm sure most won't like it. Or will they??

Legend Racer 21-09-2015 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justingt5 (Post 926606)
More racing and less qualifying is the long term answer,

Definitely need more racing and less qualifying, although to keep things as they are and do that would be OK, although I'm guessing this idea wouldn't be too popular either.
The same 3 qualifiers but at 3 minutes, less time for the quicker cars to come around and try and overtake should result in less crashes in qualifying.
Then 7 minute finals, I'd prefer 8 to be honest but I know a lot of guys run their motors too hot to last that long :woot:


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