Most raceable older 4wd car? - Page 2

AdrianH78 · #21 19-12-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuey

Funny you should mention that. Yesterday I was racing, and my mate had his CAT 2000 EC out on track (a slippery bumpy astro track). He raced it at the A1 club Iconic revival with a 6.5 turn all day with no problems. Yesterday one of the pucks (blade) came off of one of the rear driveshafts. Alloy outdrive was wrecked instantly. I can only guess it was the bumpy nature of the track, or bad luck.

Cool car

I think the 'blades' were an later optional extra on the EC perhaps?, certainly the standard plastic telescopic items are OK as I ran them without issue on my CVR 15 powered Storm 2000 no problem

. On the nitro truck, the blades cut up in one meeting ish

stickboy007 · #22 28-12-2015

If you run a 13.5 or 10.5 in your CAT2k, then it will be fine. I have a 10.5 in mine and haven't snapped any of the plastic universals at the dogbone. The real problem with those universals is the cup end where the wheel axle mounts into with pins. The holes in that cup do not have a lot of surrounding material, and they can snap if you put too much power through them. I've snapped two so far, but have otherwise had no problems.

Long story short, if you're not an idiot with your motor selection, then the drivetrain on any of these vintage 4wd buggies will be just fine.

I have experience running the following, listed in order of ranking by my personal preference (last is best):

Lazer ZXR: Not as much droop as the CAT2k or YZ10, so the jumping performance is relatively poor. I really want to put more time into mine, to play around more with setup, but in short, it has very quick steering. The main advantage over the CAT and YZ10 is the adjustable center one-way. Great for low grip tracks and/or hairpins. Weaknesses include the steering rack, C-hubs, and front shock tower mount. Center one-way locking nut tends to back out, so check that after every run. The ZXR body fits rather tight, so you may find yourself having to run the ZX body to fit the electronics comfortably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdqh07syntM

YZ10 870C: Fantastic on loose dirt. Needs some custom work to increase front droop, and additional tuning with the springs/pistons/oil, especially at the rear. Has a tendency to nose-dive off of jumps, owing to the rear bottoming out on the jump face. Weaknesses include magnesium bulkheads (easily replaced with YR4 plastic units) and magnesium steering blocks and rear hubs (haven't broken one yet, knock on wood). Also watch out for the steering rack. They tend to break on the bottom part of the servo saver side. Get a YR4 aluminum one if you can find it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9jBQuxy9xQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUtnloOaBLE

YZ10 '93 Works: Ultimate version of the 870C. Wider arms and countermeasures to deal with suspension and steering slop. I've yet to drive it on a loose dirt track, but I suspect it would perform better than the 870C. On medium to high grip, hard-packed dirt, it handles very nicely, but makes its weight known. It is heavier than the 870C, owing to the extra parts and the aluminum bulkheads. Rear bulkhead is adjustable for belt tension, but this also means it can move around a bit, even when tightened down. Check this after reach run. Extremely rare, but I really love this car. It is as fast as it looks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLOffnbzhuU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfXmYW3iw4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsayupdV7po

CAT2k: The original 2000 and the 2000EC are basically the same car, with the main difference being stand-up vs. lay-down shocks. The former is generally better on loose/rutted surfaces, while the latter is generally better on carpet or astro. Extremely competent chassis and among the most tunable of all of the vintage 4wd buggies. Clicker-type center one-way is in between the full one-way that the YZ10s have and the almost fully locked one-way on the Lazer. Arguably an over-complicated design makes it difficult to work on. Steering knuckles are not very strong. Center pulley that drives the rear belt does wear down and lead to belt skipping. I like that it can be replaced without replacing the entire slipper hub (unlike the YZ10), but do watch out for this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq2CsTu4ptA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uAVjM4uOHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edzncixXuX4

'94 YZ10: As fast as the CAT2k in the right hands, with the right setup, but simpler design, easier to work on, and far stronger. The center one-way takes a bit of work to get used to, or you can play games with it to slow it down (e.g., run plastic bushings in the pulley instead of bearings...anything to add friction and slow it down). Drives like a B44 with belt drive, in my view. The only thing I've really broken on this car is the upper tie rod. It's a tiny 16mm (or 20mm...can't remember) long unit, and can bend or break easily. The rest of it is damn near bullet proof, and not particularly heavy, despite that fact. Easily my favorite vintage 4wd runner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw38kg44k90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vfbdqCf1Ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqox7DbIPsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JZGmUma24E

Others to consider:
Losi XX4: Many consider this the best among the vintage 4wd buggies, but I personally beg to differ. Firstly, it is not as "vintage" as the other vintage buggies, so in some vintage races, it would not even be legal. Second, and most importantly, it is quite fragile. This is very important to consider, since more often than not, you'll be on the track with a bunch of bozos banging into you left and right (at least that's been my experience at vintage races, since a lot of them only race a few times per year, at most). Almost everyone I've known with a XX4 has had reliability issues with it. There is one exception, with one driver, who is extremely good. The rest of them break their stuff. The steering rack is weak and tends to snap on the serrated portion where the horn mounts onto. A friend of mine broke two of those in a single event. The 2mm pitch belts are an issue (other belt-drive vintage 4wd buggies use 3mm pitch belts, which are much more durable), and servicing them is a major operation. The rear of the chassis can crack around the screw holes. The front arms are like original B44 arms, in that they're not that beefy (CAT2k or YZ10 arms are much stronger). The inner camber link ball stud mounting holes do not have a lot of surrounding material, especially on the front tower, so they can snap off. In fairness, this is an amazing car. It is extremely quick, aided in no small part by how light it is (which is also what makes it fragile). Definitely easier to find, and find parts for, than the aforementioned, but in my view it is not a "true" vintage 4wd buggy. You can make a CAT2k or YZ10 just as quick by being a good driver.

Tamiya Avante, Egress: I have run an Avante 2011, and I'll just say it looks better than it drives. It has been a few years and I've learned a lot since then, so I'd like to take it back out and do some more tuning with it. But even still, there are better (and cheaper) options. An Egress or Avante 2001 (basically a cheaper Egress) would be better, but I haven't tried either. I have the parts to throw one together as a runner, and maybe I'll do that one day if I have the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUpVRuqnd_I

Tamiya Top Force: Based on the TA01/TA02 platform, it actually drives quite nicely and is reasonably adjustable (I've only driven mine in the driveway a few years back, but it is really quite good). The only thing that really lets it down is the poor quality plastics used for the intricately-molded gearboxes, and the steering rack has some slop. If you can get your hands on some J-parts (or a suitable substitute), you can throw together a Top Force-like chassis without too much trouble.

bretts · #23 28-12-2015

Nice post stickboy, thanks for spending the time to share your information.

racingdwarf · #24 28-12-2015

The main thing that I would say is parts availability for a runner you can enjoy, enjoy being the important bit, I have more fun with my optima than I do with my YZ10 94, I love the 94 and its far more competitive on track and can keep with modern cars on a 90s style bumpy grass track:thumbs:But I see far more optima parts easily available at reasonable prices than I do YZ10 bits thus I end up quite protective and reserved when running it.

Welshy40 · #25 30-12-2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickboy007

If you run a 13.5 or 10.5 in your CAT2k, then it will be fine. I have a 10.5 in mine and haven't snapped any of the plastic universals at the dogbone. The real problem with those universals is the cup end where the wheel axle mounts into with pins. The holes in that cup do not have a lot of surrounding material, and they can snap if you put too much power through them. I've snapped two so far, but have otherwise had no problems.

Long story short, if you're not an idiot with your motor selection, then the drivetrain on any of these vintage 4wd buggies will be just fine.

I have experience running the following, listed in order of ranking by my personal preference (last is best):

Lazer ZXR: Not as much droop as the CAT2k or YZ10, so the jumping performance is relatively poor. I really want to put more time into mine, to play around more with setup, but in short, it has very quick steering. The main advantage over the CAT and YZ10 is the adjustable center one-way. Great for low grip tracks and/or hairpins. Weaknesses include the steering rack, C-hubs, and front shock tower mount. Center one-way locking nut tends to back out, so check that after every run. The ZXR body fits rather tight, so you may find yourself having to run the ZX body to fit the electronics comfortably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdqh07syntM

Still like what youve written, yokomo yz10 would be my other car of choice as its so simple and user friendly, out the standard box you could win a major event easily, but spares arent easy to come by which is a shame, superb car. Cat 2000 wasnt my cup of tea and lacked steering plus wasnt a good car on carpet and too much to do if damaged. Preferred the Bosscat to this.

You forgot to add all the new mods for the zxr, plus all parts still easily available such as belts, bodyshells and undertrays (parma tomcat shell, zxs shell & undertray and gear covers) from kamtec, cf flat bits for zx, zxr and other new better mod designs including tub chassis from fibrelyte, wheels team c are a direct fit, pure ten blue steering has been the replacement steering since Jamie Booth used it when he won the nationals and dont break and still loads out there. Ujs built for the zx5 (they made eight sizes and two are a direct fit) plus hexes for the zx5 are also a perfect fit.

One way resolve is reverse a nyloc nut and it wont come loose. Unsure how you broke a c hub as im renown for breaking everything and never managed to break one, however teamlines version is unbreakable and ballraced. Fibrelytes semi circular tower reinforces the front gearbox and only broke one in twelve years and i hit a ceiling iron beam at roughly 50mph on the wall of death.

Other mods such as a b4 slipper clutch fitting layshaft, belt tensioners, and car can be modified to handle a 4.5 without issues and droop isnt an issue with longer ball joints on the shocks plus equalizer shocks which do appear on ebay like what Ellis used to win the euros as they did give more ground clearance. Otherwise you have the wishbone extensions which do the same job.

stickboy007 · #26 12-01-2016

I had a feeling you'd have a response on the Lazer

You have way more experience with it than I do, and your points are well taken. I do plan on putting more time in mine, since it is a very interesting chassis. I've always been a YZ10 guy, though - those are the largest part of my vintage collection.

Welshy40 · #27 12-01-2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickboy007

I had a feeling you'd have a response on the Lazer

You have way more experience with it than I do, and your points are well taken. I do plan on putting more time in mine, since it is a very interesting chassis. I've always been a YZ10 guy, though - those are the largest part of my vintage collection.

Good God!!! Youve got most out there, stunning. I did have a YZ10 and did rather well with it and liked it due to it being such a simple design and so easy to maintain. Yes the Lazer is a little more complex but tbh not much between these two cars but finding spares is the issue for the YZ10 which is a shame. Still what a collection.

fakiee · #28 14-01-2016

If i was going to race then I would go with something like this, a modified Top Force.

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100732

Think it would be great fun!

Kev B · #29 16-01-2016

Cat 2000ec.
Mine was running a 6.5 on the plastic driveshafts with no issues but at the revival ran a brushed 9x2. The only thing that could get near it all day was Matt Moore with the Predator. Shame reliability struck on that. Surprised by the earlier comments as the car never lacks steering and was the car to beat on carpet back in the day in the hands of Graham Alsop. Spares are easy to still get as well.

Naushad · #30 24-01-2016

Hmm I'd like to see one of these on the track again.

Doesn't get much of a mention these days but there is good reason for it to be sought after. It was an IFMAR winning car (Neil Cragg) and a special version was release with long wheel base conversion , upgrades shocks and a slipper clutch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuey

Funny a Yoke MR4 BC has been mentioned, my Dad has just said I can have his old one. Not sure how well they go or what the situation with spares is like though. Thanks for the posts guys keep it coming

AdrianH78 · #31 24-01-2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kev B

Cat 2000ec.
Mine was running a 6.5 on the plastic driveshafts with no issues but at the revival ran a brushed 9x2. The only thing that could get near it all day was Matt Moore with the Predator. Shame reliability struck on that. Surprised by the earlier comments as the car never lacks steering and was the car to beat on carpet back in the day in the hands of Graham Alsop. Spares are easy to still get as well.

I concur on the plastic drive shafts - I think they are bullet proof.

I have never raced a YZ-10 or Optima but I have raced a Cat2000 & EC on carpet regularly, and I thought it was superb, to the point it actually got quite boring as it was so well behaved... I cannot think of any down points really, it was bullet proof and quick, and pretty much the car to have at my club during that era. The drive train had quite a bit of drag, but this is completely canceled out with modern batteries and motors!

stuey · #32 25-01-2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naushad

Hmm I'd like to see one of these on the track again.

Doesn't get much of a mention these days but there is good reason for it to be sought after. It was an IFMAR winning car (Neil Cragg) and a special version was release with long wheel base conversion , upgrades shocks and a slipper clutch.

I actually raced the MR4 BC I got from my Dad last week on a bumpy snowy astro track. I chucked in what I had quickly to hand, a Tamiya 17x2 and an LRP ISC speedo. It was a bit slow tbh, but it went ok considering and stayed in one piece! I have been looking for the parts to do a long wheelbase conversion (ZSLWC) but only the bulkhead has come up so far, and CML cant tell me what comes with that. There is also a rear hingpin hanger required, but no luck on that. Its a shame, wheels are hard to find and the older YZ-10 style cars appear to be easier to find bits for.

Welshy40 · #33 25-01-2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naushad

Hmm I'd like to see one of these on the track again.

Doesn't get much of a mention these days but there is good reason for it to be sought after. It was an IFMAR winning car (Neil Cragg) and a special version was release with long wheel base conversion , upgrades shocks and a slipper clutch.

Neil only won 2wd, Masami won with the Yokomo.

stuey · #34 10-01-2017

Sorry to drag up an old topic. As the school holidays are now in play for me, I won't be able to make the Saturday of this year's revival. I can do a marathon driving mission and make Sunday though, but have no car as yet! So now I need to find a suitable car. I am still more interested in a sustainable car parts wise, as I want to use it on track!