why hi viz?

[Crazy L]

I've been racing for a number of years now. I'm also quite aware of the dangers that life can throw at you.

So here's the thing, it might have some you mollycoddled types up in arms that I'm even asking so be warned.

Why is there an increasing number of places at a track where you need to wear a hi viz vest?

Lets look at it like this, a hi viz vest is usually used by a person in a hazardous place where other people may not know that they are there etc etc. So, with that in mind, when at an RC track, we KNOW there are marshals, we KNOW there are people in the pitlane.

As for marshals, are they not big enough to see? everyone gets a clout on the foot now and again, but if you need a visual aid to tell you there is a 5ft+ mound of moving mammal next to the track, maybe you shouldn't be driving a fast moving 18" or less object from a distance away...just saying.

As for pit "bitches", why? They are stood usually away from the action, behind a large wooden ramp, beneath you at most times, you know they are there, the marshals know they are there, as does the race director, and any spectating public. Are they afraid they will not be seen? Pretty damn hard considering how busy pitlanes can get, how can you not "see" someone there.

I suspect it's just H&S gone mad, and politics, and bureaucracy. Most of you who know me know I don't buy into such tripe, as I like to think for myself (I can feel a Denis Leary rant coming on )

Anyway, answers on a postcard please, or, for convenience, just reply to the post.

[Danosborne6661]

Because we're bat shit crazy for health and safety in the UK

[CHEVY]

when clubs think one size fits all from kids to big lads

[mattr]

It's not health and safety gone mad, it's health and safety badly applied.
The risk assessment for a marshall (in the line of fire) should be completely different to that of pit crew. But it's easier to lump them all in as one category and say "they need hi viz"

TBH there are bigger issues around badly fitting hi viz than there are around being trackside. (You seen how fast a mini pin will grip, rip and snag on one of those airtex hi viz tops?) but hi viz is one of the first things a badly trained HSE bod will ask about. They are unlikely to actually read the risk assessment, or understand it.

Not to mention that the drivers are looking at the floor, not 1-2m above it. We really need hi viz trousers to be safe.

[crtpromachine]

I think you will find this has been raised by the amount of accidents that has ocured over the last few years .Yes I KNOW what you are going to say so what are the HI VIZ VESTS going to prove well in my opinion bugger all but at least the clubs are insured and covered if they are running to the rules of BRCA;

Marshalling HI VIS VESTS i can understand as this has been out for many years but pit bitches well that is another story tbh with you as some of the pit bitches do not even have a valid BRCA Licence so insurance would be voided anyway if they got hurt but it is like all things i persume same shit different day

[James]

At BRCA events you need to know whether a marshal has been relieved or not (ooh err) as a penalty ensues if not, so it helps identify that. Also only appointed marshals are allowed to rescue/interfere with cars at BRCA/EFRA events so helps distinguish that too. Plus if standing out bby using a bright colour more reduces your or some youngsters chance of getting hit by even a small amount is the chore of taking 30 seconds to put a hi-vis on really that much of an issue? Its just duty of care to do what you can to look after your racers.
I don't know about the pit man thing.. Seems sensible to only allow relevant personnel on the track though, and if you've ever run a race meeting then being able to identify marshals, pit people very in the 2 minutes between races quickly is a lot easier when you just have to look for a hi-vis.

[DCM]

It is so the Race Director can determin who is marshalling and who isn't.

[justleanitupabit]

I agree with you on pit crew. I disagree on marshals.

Where marshals are concerned, while you know they are about on the track, it is easier to identify and locate a marshall and take avoiding action if needs be when a marshal is wearing a vest and in the line of fire. Now you might say "but I shouldn't have to...." or "the marshal should be paying attention" or something similar but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and if the risk of injury are lessened slightly by something as simple as wearing a high-viz vest then so be it. Its not exactly a hardship wearing one.

A chap I know has a massive lump on his shin from getting hit at the IBR 1/8th meeting at Padova. The IBR doesn't really enforce any message to marshalls other than "don't get hit" and no vests are supplied. Obviously we can't know if he'd had got hit had he been wearing one anyway but I can't help but think its less likely. Getting a Rallycross car in the head at any speed really doesn't bear thinking about.

[PaulRotheram]

Just wear the vest...

[jimmy]

I was not allowed to photo from many points that were safe at 8th nationals - but the marshalls behind a bit of chicken wire - sometimes there were marshall points there is NO WAY I would want to sit at. Getting hit is one thing - taking a 3.5kg missile to the face is surely no fun.

People get hit because people get it wrong - I almost got decapitated at neo stood at my marshall point. Just got my arm up in time to take the force. Doesn't matter if I was lit up like a xmas tree if someone drives like a nob.
At the neo - I never saw anyone slowing down when I was marshalling in THE PIT OF DEATH.

Breath testing 2013 - helmets 2014? - Mandatory ejaculation before racing 2015? Everyone tokes on a joint during each warmup 2016?

[gazmond]

Originally Posted by jimmy

Everyone tokes on a joint during each warmup 2016?

I would vote for this

[Aire valley]

As James said, it is a very simple way for the Race Director to identify Marshall's as opposed to those not allowed trackside.. Good idea..!

[blue_pinky]

Haha...nice work Jimmy!

As James has already posted...the high viz thing is more about race control being able to see there are marshalls in place, and not about racers being able to see them, or them providing any extra safety protection.

I'm not convinced it's that big a deal though...they don't do any harm to anything or anyone, and they are hardly an inconvenience. so what's the problem if the race organisers that enforce them find them useful for something? Why worry about it?

BIG vests on little people is probably more of a hazard though!!! Wouldn't be surprised to see that causes a trip or fall in extreme cases!

[DCM]

And if your a big chap with a little vest, you could have some hulk rippage going on!!

[Crazy L]

Originally Posted by DCM

It is so the Race Director can determin who is marshalling and who isn't.

Ah, there we go. A sensible non ranting answer to my question, Cheers.

As opposed to....

Originally Posted by blue_pinky

I'm not convinced it's that big a deal though...they don't do any harm to anything or anyone, and they are hardly an inconvenience. so what's the problem if the race organisers that enforce them find them useful for something? Why worry about it?

Whoa there nelly.

Thank you for all your answers. The winner is DCM though.



...but I bet all drivers on the rostrum are wearing them by 2017 and no one questions why.

[blue_pinky]

Taken out by DCM...not for the first time either

Love you Steve

[mark christopher]

its mainly brca and insurance.
its deemed that anyone within the track perimeter is at risk. marshals pit crew etc
if some one gets hit and tries to make a claim the club has to prove they did everything possible to protect that person. How ever, as soon as you leave your marshall point you are on your own, and have no insurance cover, as you have been deemed to decide its safe to run across the track.

it is mainly for h and s gone mad, though it does also help id marshals missing

jim spencer is the man for the officials answer!

[Belsten]

Originally Posted by jimmy

Breath testing 2013 - helmets 2014? - Mandatory ejaculation before racing 2015? Everyone tokes on a joint during each warmup 2016?

Ive been all over one of these for a long time now jimbob

[SlowOne]

And why has H&S gone mad? Because we have gone mad! At the slightest hint of anything happening to anyone, they sue. Sod Margaret bloody Thatcher and her 'no win no fee' idea, it's turned us all into the sort of people who want to be victims, and not to take responsibility.

If you got hit by a an RC car and someone said they could get you a few grand from someone else for nothing, would you say no? History says you wouldn't. So, the lawyer goes to court and points out to the judge that things that could have been done have not been done and before you can "payout" you are staring a mortgage in the face to pay the claimant.

If it cost the right amount of money to sue where there has been negligence or wilful recklessness then people would go after those who deliberately put us in the way of harm. As it is that change of Law means anyone can set up as a claims advisor and act on your behalf - it costs you nothing to get tax-free money. Surprise, surprise - people sue for anything because they have no skin in the game and it costs them nothing.

So, when the court says that not being easily visible is a contributory cause to the 'accident' then what happens? Everyone ends up in a hi-vis. Don't rail against the nanny state and the H&S madness because we, the general public, caused it.

On a more practical note, they do make it easier to see someone on the track out of the corner of your eye when they contrast against the background. As for the 'counting the marshals' bit - sorry, don't buy it. Before the hi-viz craze Race Directors counted bodies and marshal positions were marked. If there were nine in the last heat and you could only count eight people at the marked positions you were one missing!

When doing risk assessments against court decisions in previous cases, being 'invisible' comes out as a contributory cause of accidents. Result? - we get people to wear hi-viz jackets. Suck it up. The reverse of acting on court decisions is that if you don't you will not have a claim, however wilful or negligent the 'offender'. Don't wear a hi-viz and you have no leg to stand on making a claim if you are injured. And that is the real harm of all this - make one mistake in following the requirements and people will, one day, get away with murder.

[Jim Spencer]

Hi All

Been pointed at this thread and asked to comment.

But realistically you've got it covered - "It's the world we live in"
Fix that and you've achieved something

However I'll have a go

Before you jump up and down on the Association, please do this:-
Read the General Rules - you would be surprised, judging by the above, what's not actually there.

Secondly - think what a 'Race Track' is to the average bloke in the street, i.e. the bloke YOU might have to convince that YOU did everything possible to avoid that accident when it goes pear shaped - who's never seen model car racing, but has seen Brands Hatch on the telly..

Sometimes we are required to go slightly OTT (For Our Sport) to make sure that Mr Averages expectations are covered (which is essentially what the UK legal system is based around) you may or may not like that - but
"It's the world we live in"
And we as the BRCA can't fix that..

So DO what your race director has deemed necessary, or simply offer to do his job for him, once you're doing it though be prepared for loads of flak of your mates as you'll probably come to the same conclusion on safety as he did

Last bit - if you think it's not safe you MUST say so to race control - that IS in the rules.