B44.2 handling nightmare, looking for suggestions

[Allan1875]

Hi guys, i currently race DEX410v3 but my Dad decided to take up buggies and got himself a B44.2 as he likes Associated stuff.

He set it up as kit, except i swapped the rear oil to 27.5wt AE.

Before i go any further this is all racing on grass, schumy yellow, 1 outside row and 1 inside row of spikes off the front tyres.

The car had too much front grip, really bitey on the front end made the car roll a lot but drivable.

We were back for another regional a fortnight later at the same track so i made some further changes changing the rear springs from white to black, and the front springs from blue to orange to try and increase rear traction, while limiting front but to be honest, this really didn't help at all, infact if anything the car was worse, although the grass had grown thick in places which made have increased the front traction a fair bit.

I change numerous things throughout the day trying to compensate by lengthening camber links, moving shock angles to try stiffen it up but we kept coming back with pretty much the same end result. The only progress we did make was we managed to decrease the front end grip, however the rear end was quite snakey, which was a surprise to me as we were on the softest springs and a fairly soft oil.

I had a look at Gareth Hill's setups on petit rc and the car was setup very similar to this at the beginning of the meeting with absolutely no joy. I only had a quick couple of shots of the car but it did not feel good at all.

I found it extremely frustrating as my Durango was absolutely dialled. The only thing my Dads car done better was jump, man did that AE jump and land well!

Basically looking for some AE tips here, below is some of the setup off the top off my head.

Shocks:
rear - black, 27.5wt, 2x1.7 - Mounted middle on tower, inside on WB.
front - orange, 35wt, 2x1.7 (changed to 2x1.6 later on). Mounted Middle on tower, outside on WB.

Camber:
-1 rear, -1 front (tried increasing this to -1.5, helped a bit)

Diffs:
Both were fairly tight, perhaps loosening the rear may have helped calm it down?

Anti roll bars:
None connected.

Camber links:

Rear was in the middle on car, 2nd hole on hub (kit)
front was on outside on car, and outside on hub.

Tried lengthening both these as i believe it calms and stabilizes a car but had no joy at all.

Any help would be very much appreciated as my Dad's new to buggies and is finding the jumps etc hard enough without having a difficult handling car to contend with. If you need any other info on the setup, just ask.

[discostu]

It's either a mid print or your front shocks are way off

Try 40wt up front purple or red spring
And 32.5wt in rear grey or white (around the 2 pound mark)

Long flat links rear roll bar

Stu

[MiCk B.]

Yep,

Same as above, heavier oil in the front 40 / 45.

Try the front shocks on the outside on the arm.

Rear, 25 - 30 oil on inside hole in arm, with rear roll bar.

Diff, have the front slightly tighter than the rear.

MiCk B. :-)

[Allan1875]

Cheers lads.

Also been given some advice which I thought was good and hadn't given a thought too.

Running a couple of limiters in the front shocks and possibility of 1 in the rear.

[discostu]

The limiters will depend on how rough the track is if I were you get the car balanced first keeping the limiters in your mind

Saying that you will need limiters in the rear sheiks as per manual or the drive shaft will fall out under full droop

Keep paying and learning it does make sence in the end

Stu Rand

[Freakypen]

I run 2wd front minispikes tyres this makes a big difference on high traction tracks.

[mattr]

Originally Posted by Freakypen

I run 2wd front minispikes tyres this makes a big difference on high traction tracks.

Won't help if you can't keep the front wheels on the ground!

[traffman]

Hi Allan , John and i run limiters in the rear , just tie it down a bit , i nip up the front diff as per John's and keep the rear a lil bit looser .

I did have issues with on limit grip from the rear still , i felt i couldn't be as aggressive as i really wanted to go.

I need to change my rubber ! That's the main issue i have , i keep my tyres a wee bit longer after they have gone past there best.

[Allan1875]

I appreciate the replys, i am going to put the limiters in etc.

I've not looked at the manual etc yet but i understand you can adjust the wheelbase on this car. Can someone explain how that's done?

[Danny Harrison]

Originally Posted by Allan1875

I appreciate the replys, i am going to put the limiters in etc.

I've not looked at the manual etc yet but i understand you can adjust the wheelbase on this car. Can someone explain how that's done?

If you look at where the rear hubs connect to the A arms there is a long and short spacer. Just swap them around.

[Richard Lowe]

Apart from dropping the rear oil to 27.5w, 1.7mm piston and going from a White to Green rear spring, the car should be pretty drivable on kit setup on grass.

Take everything back to kit apart from the above (including connecting the silver rear rollbar). Make sure you don't make the common mistake of over-tightening the two small screws that hold the rollbar onto the gearbox case, it should float freely if you try and move it around when the car is sat at ride height. 99% of the 44's people ask me to go over at meetings have those two screws cranked right down, which can make the car do funny things.

Set the front diff pretty tight and start chopping spikes off the front tyres until you're close on balance. Don't be shy cutting rows off the front, even if you end up with 3 rows left or something it's the tyres that will get you most of the way to the balance you want. Moving onto springs and camberlink positions is just the last bit of fine tuning you do, if you're miles out on tyres no amount of car setup will help

[Allan1875]

Thanks Richard.

Everyone is recommending running the rear roll bar but what's the theory behind this? I always thought that running the roll bar will limit the body roll at the back and take away rear grip?

[Richard Lowe]

I've found the rollbar actually gives you more rear grip turning in, and generally makes turn-in more stable. There's a point mid corner where if you lean on it enough it breaks the back end loose and you get lots of mid corner rotation. Learning how hard you have to lean on the car to get it to rotate is one of the key's to going fast with the 44, which just comes with stick time

[nobby]

I had the same problem with the front end having mega bite! So I went up on the front spring.
Now all I found this did was hold the front end flat for longer, and made the front tyres stay flat, and bite harder.

So I went soft with the front end, and had more roll on the front, and I ran 2wd mini spikes with the outer row cut off.
Black roll bar on the front.
Silver roll bar on the rear.

This let the car roll more, and scrub a bit through the corner.

I ran blue fronts 35wt middle hole tower outer hole wishbone with 3 limiters.
White rears 30wt middle hole tower outer hole wishbone with 1 limiter.

Hope this helps.

[Richard Lowe]

One more thing I'd suggest is to swap the steering bellcranks and Ackermann plate for something less... flaccid(!) I never got on with the all plastic steering when I moved from the BJ4 to the 44, it seemed to make the car a bit vague and then grab sometimes. On faster corners too (especially on power) the plastic steering can't keep the wheels cranked over no matter how strong your servo is as it all just flexes.
On my 44.1 I used to use the carbon Ackermann plate and bushings from the BJ4, currently on the .2 I have an ebay special all alloy setup - which I'll be swapping for the JConcepts alloy/carbon parts which have just been released.

Saying that Craggy uses the standard plastic steering, I honestly don't know how his car has as much steering as it does - besides the obvious magic thumbs

[Freakypen]

Originally Posted by mattr

Won't help if you can't keep the front wheels on the ground!

Where does it say he cant keep the front wheels down???-the complaint is of too much front grip.......therefore i'd assume the front wheels defo are on the ground......?

[Freakypen]

Originally Posted by mattr

Won't help if you can't keep the front wheels on the ground!

"The car had too much front grip, really bitey on the front end made the car roll a lot but drivable."

[jason-l]

Good thread, reading it with interest.

My B44.2 is my first go at 4WD and found I had too much steering and too little rear traction. Think I used a PetitRC setup as a baseline. After setup tweaks I've ended up with (from memory):

Front: red/orange spring, 35wt, 1.6 piston, 2/3 limiters, silver ARB, tight diff
Rear: green/black spring, 27.5wt, 1.7 piston, 1 limiter, disconnected ARB, less tight diff

And still very dependent on front tyre snipping. It feels like the sweet spot is a very narrow target to me... More often than not its either still wanting to spin out on entry or understeer too much on exit.

But then (a) I'm totally new to 4WD and (b) I've only very limited experience of any other 4WD car. Clearly, reading this, I need to start over and experiment more.

[mattr]

Originally Posted by Freakypen

"The car had too much front grip, really bitey on the front end made the car roll a lot but drivable."

Missed that on the mobile! Was more looking at the unusual shock set up.

[Allan1875]

Originally Posted by mattr

Missed that on the mobile! Was more looking at the unusual shock set up.

Until I read this post, i've only just realised I typed the shock oil weights back to front, what an idiot.

I'll edit it now.