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Old 01-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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Default Front frame brakeage

Hey guys I have been having bad luck whit the front of my X-6 brake lately both my frame split my saddle pack and my stock one I now of the graphite being prone to this but not the plastic ones we run on carpet so maybe to harsh on the frames.

What's your opinion.

Denis. In Montreal Quebec Canada Heyyy.
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Old 01-10-2011
SpeedyDad SpeedyDad is offline
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What is under the carpet? Dirt or concrete?
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Old 01-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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There is a nother carpet for road course and concrete.
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Old 01-10-2011
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So you are running on concrete with a bit of padding. Please send me an E-mail.

YoungChazz@gmail.com
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Old 01-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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Shure thing Chazz thanks for your acknowledgement
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Old 01-10-2011
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Our track is 1/2 plywood tapconed down with a layer of ozite for the on road guys and another layer of indoor/outdoor carpet for us off road guys with most of the jumps made of 1/4 hardboard. The 'walls' are 2x4 hollow square plastic that you can drive over easily if you wanted. Its pretty car friendly from what I've seen, I'm hard on cars and haven't broken in a couple months now.
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Old 01-10-2011
SpeedyDad SpeedyDad is offline
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Yup, that is probably why. With dirt, there is give. With concrete, even with another layer of carper below, it is a very hard hit.
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Old 02-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyDad View Post
Yup, that is probably why. With dirt, there is give. With concrete, even with another layer of carper below, it is a very hard hit.
Yes Sir I do agree but other companies are not braking there plates.

I do want to specify that I am not bashing The X I just fine it funny that they do tend to break easy and by the way I am not a ruff driver I have been racing since 1986 and experienced.

Regards

Den.
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Old 02-10-2011
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I don't quite follow from your original post, are you running the plastic or graphite chassis?
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Old 02-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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I don't quite follow from your original post, are you running the plastic or graphite chassis?

Hello Dan I am running the plastics one on both my X that broke, and have run graphite in the first version a bought, went to plastic after brakeage of that on also.

Have you had any frames brake on this kind of surface ?

Den.
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Old 03-10-2011
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Hasn't there been a bad batch of chassis' that broke more easily? (1 or 2 years ago)
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Old 03-10-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canon67 View Post
Yes Sir I do agree but other companies are not braking there plates.

I do want to specify that I am not bashing The X I just fine it funny that they do tend to break easy and by the way I am not a ruff driver I have been racing since 1986 and experienced.

Regards

Den.
Then you should know better.
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Old 03-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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Then you should know better.

That's right KC I do now better I have never broken this part in the past that's why I am asking so please don't be sarcastic, what is also happening is peoples from your track are going to other manufactures that don't have this problem,other do have problems no one is perfect but not chassis that snap and cost you 70$ every two or tree races.

This post is just to see if I am all by my self or is there a bad batch of chassis.

I could have just given up and gone to other company but no I love the X it’s a very good car, I no Chazz tries hard it’s not easy against the big ones out there.

Regards

Den.
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Old 03-10-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canon67 View Post
Hello Dan I am running the plastics one on both my X that broke, and have run graphite in the first version a bought, went to plastic after brakeage of that on also.

Have you had any frames brake on this kind of surface ?

Den.
I must admit I have never broken an X6 sq chassis that I can recall nor ever really noted many others. I broke a whole load of the very original nose cones in the original material but the squared chassis is much better in design and material whether Plastic or graphite.

Is is very cold where you race?
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Old 03-10-2011
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nope, its indoors, so what ever it is outside or heated up to about 65-70*F in the winter. I think the past few issues Denis has had where when its over 75*F, so not cold.
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Old 04-10-2011
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Paul drove back from Boston today, and will be in the office Tuesday afternoon. I'll talk to him about this problem. I'll also check my YoungChazz@gmail to see if you've sent something.

We'll see if there is anything we can figure out.

Dan has the history correct. The first nose pieces were somewhat fragile. Good thing they were nose pieces instead of the whole chassis. We fixed that on the second run and they are fine now.

There were a few pieces of an older run of graphite Squared chassies that broke in the nose, but we changed some things in the next run and they have been good.

Remember that we are racing. Building the car as light as possible and going as fast as possible. Neither of those things is usually good for durability. In some cases weight is added to the already light front end, which ups the stress.
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Old 04-10-2011
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I've broken two when running with a brass bulk head, i now stick strictly to the plastic bulk head and choose to add weight else where, having said that I've seen the B4 & .1 break in exactly the same place. But then they are the same shape at the front.
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Old 04-10-2011
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The xx-4 has a front bulkhead that's U-shaped in the top view. It goes across the front of the chassis and has longitudinal holes running along each side for the hinge pins. Screws in to the chassis at the front and back on each side right next to the hinge pin and is keyed to the chassis. This helps the part withstand twisting action. The original ones were junk, but they began making the part of Delrin (white) and now the major problem is hinge pin hole wear. Point is, the chassis never breaks there. Most twisting stress generated by the control arms stays in the bulkhead. that which reaches the chassis is spread out.

I submit the B4 front end is not the strongest possible design, and there is not much we can do about it. All the twisting stress from the control arms is transmitted directly into the smallest part of the chassis with screws that are relatively far from the pins. There is no keying, the bulkhead is located by the screws alone. Further, that part of the chassis is furthest away from the spot where the plastic flows into the mold, so when the plastic gets there it will be (relatively) cold, causing all sorts of problems, all of which effect strength...

Parts with mold flow characteristics like this made in the beginning of a run will not be quite as good as parts in the middle of the run, because the mold is not up to temperature. Early in the run when the mold is cool, the place in the part furthest from the inlet receives plastic cooler than later in the run when the mold is hot. At the very end of any run, as the supply of plastic runs out, the last two or three parts may have problems, especially in the areas furthest from the inlet. All of the problems described in this paragraph are difficult, if not impossible, to see. The parts look perfect.

So should we throw away the first 10% of the run and the last 5-6 parts? The vast majority of them are fine, and that's a terribly expensive thing to do. Would equal significantly higher prices.

Is any of the above the problem here? Can't say without actually having the part in my hands. Most likely it's simply a freak of the racing game. If we think it's a defective part, we'll work out something with Canon.

Eight years ago Paul and I just wanted to build a better 4WD. Whodathunk we'd have to learn about injection molding???
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Old 04-10-2011
canon67 canon67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungChazz View Post
The xx-4 has a front bulkhead that's U-shaped in the top view. It goes across the front of the chassis and has longitudinal holes running along each side for the hinge pins. Screws in to the chassis at the front and back on each side right next to the hinge pin and is keyed to the chassis. This helps the part withstand twisting action. The original ones were junk, but they began making the part of Delrin (white) and now the major problem is hinge pin hole wear. Point is, the chassis never breaks there. Most twisting stress generated by the control arms stays in the bulkhead. that which reaches the chassis is spread out.

I submit the B4 front end is not the strongest possible design, and there is not much we can do about it. All the twisting stress from the control arms is transmitted directly into the smallest part of the chassis with screws that are relatively far from the pins. There is no keying, the bulkhead is located by the screws alone. Further, that part of the chassis is furthest away from the spot where the plastic flows into the mold, so when the plastic gets there it will be (relatively) cold, causing all sorts of problems, all of which effect strength...

Parts with mold flow characteristics like this made in the beginning of a run will not be quite as good as parts in the middle of the run, because the mold is not up to temperature. Early in the run when the mold is cool, the place in the part furthest from the inlet receives plastic cooler than later in the run when the mold is hot. At the very end of any run, as the supply of plastic runs out, the last two or three parts may have problems, especially in the areas furthest from the inlet. All of the problems described in this paragraph are difficult, if not impossible, to see. The parts look perfect.

So should we throw away the first 10% of the run and the last 5-6 parts? The vast majority of them are fine, and that's a terribly expensive thing to do. Would equal significantly higher prices.

Is any of the above the problem here? Can't say without actually having the part in my hands. Most likely it's simply a freak of the racing game. If we think it's a defective part, we'll work out something with Canon.

Eight years ago Paul and I just wanted to build a better 4WD. Whodathunk we'd have to learn about injection molding???


A ok the mold temperature to plastic flow yes I no about that I have machined in the past for a mold company and I now about this ok makes sense, I have modified this king of plates, you should suggest for smother
finish for the far away parts for essayer flow and les in the closer to inlet. You should go to a multiport injection will be much more efficient.

Ok well it explains all no worries bud. I am still an X fan.

Cheers Love to see you up in Ottawa.

Den.
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Old 05-10-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
Hasn't there been a bad batch of chassis' that broke more easily? (1 or 2 years ago)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilRalph77 View Post
I've broken two when running with a brass bulk head, i now stick strictly to the plastic bulk head and choose to add weight else where, having said that I've seen the B4 & .1 break in exactly the same place. But then they are the same shape at the front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canon67 View Post
A ok the mold temperature to plastic flow yes I no about that I have machined in the past for a mold company and I now about this ok makes sense, I have modified this king of plates, you should suggest for smother
finish for the far away parts for essayer flow and les in the closer to inlet. You should go to a multiport injection will be much more efficient.

Ok well it explains all no worries bud. I am still an X fan.

Cheers Love to see you up in Ottawa.

Den.
Hey Guys,
Chazz asked me to read through and I wanted to post a comment or two.

The carbon chassis are naturally more brittle than the plastic ones, and two years ago I saw a few that broke suspiciously. I don't think we got a bad 'batch' of them, but more along the lines of what Chazz explained - a few were not quite as good as the majority. I spoke to our chassis supplier about the issue before a run in 2010, and we've heard very few complaints since. Another run was made this past summer and appear as good as the last batch.

I have not seen this problem with our plastic chassis. That's not to say the plastic chassis won't ever break, but I've never seen it happen without another part at fault (make sure your front bulkhead and top plate are in good condition and NOT STRIPPED OUT) or one heck of a spectacular wreck (like when a B44 jumped across a lane and hit my car going full out on the straight at a club race back in February). As Neil mentioned, running an aluminum or brass front bulkhead can put extra stress on the front end - take extra care that the top deck fully seats into the bulkhead, and the 7 screws snug down well (4 from the bottom and the three behind the shocktower). Also, check those 7 screws occasionally - mine work loose over time, and a quick half-turn with the wrench once a weekend helps keeps things tight.

Overall, if you feel your chassis has failed due to a quality issue, please don't hesitate to contact us - PM me, email myself or Chazz, or give Darren at DMS a ring. We're hear to make cool cars that the XF Family can enjoy and go fast with, not cause headaches with poor quality or try to get rich on excessive parts sales.

As always, thanks for everyone's support!
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