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  #1  
Old 16-09-2011
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bedsrcmcc bedsrcmcc is offline
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Default Thoughts and comments on splitting Mardaves into 2 classes...

Evening all,

I've been noticing over the past few weeks now that some Mardave drivers have been running cars, that if we were to stay strict to the letter of the rules have clearly not followed the club rules that we introduced.

Now I'm not going even suggest those drivers lose their points in the Championships as that would simply cause grief among members. However I think we should now discuss/consider introducing a new Class that takes the current rules to the next step for those who want to do so.

I think we have to think carefully about why the club introduced Mardave in the first place, in my view it was a way to introduce a very basic and cheap form of racing and it's succeeded I think above and beyond what we ever thought. A lot of the members who run Mardave's do so because it's FUN and I couldn't agree more - fun close racing is what it's all about for me too.

Now I'm not one to stop development and competition and there are I feel some members who quite rightly enjoy pushing the envelope in the setting up of their cars and that should be applauded and encourage, but not to the detriment of those who simply do it for fun. At the same time though, those who do it for fun should still be allowed to race on a fair and level playing field - these are the kind of members who come along, race the car pack it away at the end of the night and never touch it until the next week. There is nothing wrong in that, likewise there is nothing wrong with those who like to tinker. I would hope that any club can accommodate both style of members and that's why I think we need to have a discussion about allowing a 'Mod Mardave Class' to be introduce.

In terms of rules for that - I personally have no thoughts or input as I'm not interested in that level of tinkering with the Mardave, I just do it for fun. Touring Cars is where I like to tinker So I'm quite happy to leave it to you all to thrash out some rules - or you could simple say anything goes...

You can therefore discuss going LiPo and Brushless, ball races all round and diff - you name it you can do whatever you like. It's over to you guys to discuss...

I have also listened to those who say that buying certain upgrades can be more cost effective in the long run - and maybe it can, but for instance both Mardave cars that I and my son run are straight out of the box, I have rear ballraces (allowed in current rules) and we both run a much better servo saver that we all agreed is best as the kit one is crap Now we've been running these two cars now for 2 Championships and have not spent a penny on anything other than Luke got a bent king pin at the front. We have not spent an extra penny and we still have great fun racing the cars and they are both still competitive among our fellow members. So in my mind the argument that some of these upgrades save money in the long run don't add up for me. I don't know what others are doing to cause the standard kit items to be damaged so much that causes the need for an upgrade as these cars in my eyes are pretty bullet-proof - especially when you see how we throw them about.

The other concerns I have over allowing extra upgrades to creep into the current rules is twofold - firstly, once we introduce 1 thing, pressure will mount to add something else and where do we stop? Secondly, these extra items may only be a few pounds here and a few pounds there, but it all adds up in the end we can't ignore the current financial climate we are in. Those of us who are parents will understand I'm sure.

So to summarise...

I think we should stick to the current rules (happy to ban com drops if you want) to make it even more simple and then we should police these rules to ensure everyone is keeping to them.

Then for those who want to push the development and upgrade of the class to include LiPo/Brushless or whatever you want, feel free.

At the end of the day, I'm not wanting to stop anyone racing at all. Just simply making clear what the boundaries are so that when someone new to the hobby comes along they can clearly see what they do and don't have to do.

So it's over to you lot now to anyone who wants to suggest rules (if any) you want for a Mod class. I did overhear one member last week say they would join in with Mardave's if we went LiPo Brushless so I think it's worth considering guys...

PS. I fully understand that technology moves on and probably within the next couple of years cells will vanish and everything will be LiPo, but until that time arises we continue using cells in the stock class.
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Old 17-09-2011
oli oli is offline
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I must say that the main reason I started driving Mardaves was that I'd gotten tired of the constant 'Arms Race' of touring car driving. I find that the reduced speed of the stock Mardave motor allows very precise driving and for me that is where the main enjoyment lies - trying to achieve the perfect line and carry as much corner speed as possible without the brute force of a brushless or modified motor to tempt you into a more ragged driving style.

So given the choice, I would prefer to race in a totally stock Mardave class which allows kit parts only and does away with 'optional extra's' such as ally rear pods, after-market wheel hubs, delrin spurs, cryo coolers, comm drops etc. etc. ...

To be really honest most of these things have enormous 'bling' factor but don't really do that much to improve car speed or handling, in fact most are heavier than the originals so tend to actually hamper performance somewhat, apart from the ally pod which does keep the motor cooler for longer thus giving better performance towards the end of a race.

The best possible performance enhancing add-on is consistency and that is free with a bit of practice. Even for touring car drivers, if your average lap time is more than half a second slower than your fastest lap time then try slowing down your motor till you can consistently drive within half a second average to fastest and see the improvement...
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Old 17-09-2011
ek9russ ek9russ is offline
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Like above, I don’t think that the hop ups make much if any difference to the performance of the cars, but understand the point about being a fair playing field especially for people who don’t like to tinker and parents etc


If say for example there was a class for just the box standard cars, what would happen if someone added a clip on motor heat sink? Or changed the springs, or even modded the battery tray so the cells sit along the chassis rather than across?

Do people have a performance benefit if they have a larger selection of different compound tyres to try each night, what if people have better battery packs than others?

I do think that brushless, lipos, gear diffs etc should be in their own class as I think the cars will have benefits over the others.
I think the cells will become obsolete in the not so distance future, so having people at the club that are trying things out is always good for the rest of us
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  #4  
Old 17-09-2011
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Scott,

I don't know of anyone in the club who wants to run in a modified mardave class, so can't see the point of introducing it. We also need to be realistic in that some parts that don't come with the kits are sensible additions, e.g. Battery holder and bumper, different springs...

In reality I think there are only 2 things that some people are currently running that we might consider saying cannot be used, they are:

1. The z-drive with delrin spur: my personal opinion is that this is a low cost update on what was a pretty narly old spur, does not improve performance, just reliability and perfect for those that leave their car in the box between meetings. I certainly dont think it detracts from the spirit of the class, but if majority of people would like to see them not used, I'm fine with that.

2. The alloy rear motor carrier: a great upgrade but I agree it is expensive and against the spirit of the class. I am happy to see this banned?

Note that neither Robert or Graham are using the z drive and the banning of the alloy motor pod will only see their cars go marginally slower towards the end of the race as the motor overheats.

What other mods are people currently using that you would like to see banned?

Paul
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  #5  
Old 20-09-2011
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bedsrcmcc bedsrcmcc is offline
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Personally I do not want to see anything banned. As I've already said I'm happy for people to tinker and upgrade to get the very best out of their car and that's why I suggest we split into two to allow those who want to tinker the ability to do so without too much control what they can't or can do.

I would then suggest that the 'stock class' should then be solely for out of the box cars as per our current rules and I'd be happy to stop the use of comm drops in the stock class.

We have around 30 members who race Mardave and only 4 people have put their thoughts on here...

I was going to email everyone tomorrow so I'll mention it.

There is another more radical approach to the stock class and that is kit tyres without additive - I wonder what people think of that?

In terms of other items on the cars currently - heatsinks have appeared which were also not discussed in the original rules. I understand why people run these, but I still come back to the newbie and his/her parents who are looking for a cheap entry into the racing scene. Bulk standard Mardave racing is a very attractive entry into RC racing and by restricting what can be spent should firmly put the focus onto the driving - a point that Graham makes very well above about driver skill and consistency being FREE

At the end of the day I can see the benefits of both options which is why I still think that having two classes could work - Stock and Mod. You may well find that some of the stock drivers will reach a point in time when they'd like to jump up to the mod class to start 'tinkering'.

I guess it's kind of the same philosophy we were thinking about with the introduction of the street class for Touring Cars - by restricting the rules and trying to put a cap on spending the focus would then swing to race craft...
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  #6  
Old 22-09-2011
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Andybra Andybra is offline
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Arrow Tinkering

I don't mind either way. As long as- in standard class the rules are clear and adhered too. E.g. We run 1 car with a heatsink and 1 without. No one has ever said that there was an issue. We also had 1 with z drive and one without. The advantage of not having the silly flats wear out was the only reason. When Alisons broke I changed hers to z drive too. As long as the rules are clear and everyone plays by them we should be able to continue to have FUN as a club. After all, that's why we do it
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  #7  
Old 23-09-2011
hashiriya hashiriya is offline
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As a non Mardave racer maybe I shouldn't try to push my opinion too much but I think having the next step up level could make things interesting.

Firstly I think a heatsink is not really a point in need of discussion is it? I can't see how the motors can get hot enough to lose much performance from not using one and they only cost £5 or so but clarity is the main point i guess, not so much the actual benefit of it.

Secondly, If the Mardave class opens up a little and splits in the 2, the "Top" class should not be completely open. There is an established ruleset which is being adopted by many clubs now which allow for things like open gearing, diffs etc but thats about it. I don't think we want to start goingg down the road of allowing custom chassis and suspension etc.

I'd reckon that if a 1S lipo, 13.5T no dynamic timing class was started which basically adopted the same rules as now but with added, diff, bearings all round and free gearing. The racing would be even closer than it is now.

The consistancy in battery voltage with all 1S lipo charging to 4.2V but a Nimh pack can vary depending on how good a pack is (usually also means how expensive) and we all know that a G2 has some variation in speed. I think these two things alone could make quite a difference overall.

Ever since the switch to Lipo and Brushless, I've become lazy in my RC racing as the cars seem to require less and less maintenance and I don't need to sit around putting my cells on a discharge tray and re-peak them at the right time and only use a pack once every 24hrs etc. I've not taken up Mardave for mainly those reasons. If there was a lipo brushless option available, I may be tempted to the dark side... but not until TC street class picks up a bit more
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  #8  
Old 24-09-2011
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bedsrcmcc bedsrcmcc is offline
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Tonight, Robert ran his Mardave with a Brushless setup, with cells not LiPo BTW. WOW! It was flying and great to see, plus there was some talk of others keen to run something a little more 'open' than the current rules we have.

I do think that there is the potential for enough drivers who are keen to make the switch to allow us to run a 'open mod' group along with the current (more carefully policed) out of the box rules we have.

Both can work side by side without impacting the interest and appeal for the first-timer who's just getting into the sport and offering a fun class for those who want to enjoy close cheap racing, but at the same time having the open mod group for those who enjoy their tinkering and who wish to push the envelope of the class to the next step.

I therefore ask that all those who are interested in the open mod idea start discussing what would work. Once there is agreement we'll get it up and running at the club. Remember that we can have both forms running at the same time on the track, we'll just split them up in terms of points in a Championship scenario.

As I've made it pretty clear myself, I'm for keeping the current rules as they are for the standard out the box group, but to police it more closely, while the rest of you who are interested in an open mod - it's over to you.

I'll step back now from the discussion while you guys discuss what you want to do...
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  #9  
Old 25-09-2011
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Andybra Andybra is offline
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Default Yup, I agree

The last two posts really sum it up.
1. Keep the out of the box class -absolutely. Decide a rule set much like now but police it a bit closer. Be sensible about what's allowed. The VRX comes with a number of sets of springs so out of the box allows spring rate tweaks! I prefer a heatsink but if it's now allowed fine. (£8) per motor -no data on whether a heatsink will make it last longer. Ban z seizes if you like but personally I have found they increase reliability but aren't performance enhancing. I guess maybe the delrin gear runs a bit smoother........

2. Mod class if done does need some guidance. Maz's suggestion to follow other clubs guidelines make sense. Allow bearings, diff, brushless 1 cell only, or 4.8 nimh., heatsinks etc. But -standard dimensions and chassis. Possibly need to set a min weight or people will start drilling stuff out to lighten things. Limit the brushless wind and decide on turbo and boost-disallow maybe as that makes esc costs a bit less.

Cost estimate:
13.5 T motor from giant cod £14.19
Esc £34.19
Lipo 1s 5400mah eBay £30
Diff £15
Wheels and bearings £10
Lipo boost plus bits and pieces

So, about £100 to start....minimum......

Just my thoughts.......

As Maz also said, if this idea is a popular as Street TC has been so far.....

Good to get the idea going though :-)
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  #10  
Old 02-10-2011
HPI Paul HPI Paul is offline
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Default Clarify the stock class

In the absense of any proposed modified rules, I think we are best carrying on as we are in the short term (say up until christmas at least) which gives us time to discuss/ experiment with a few options before maybe considering splitting the classes at a later date.

To quell some of the issues over excessive mods etc, I propose the following clarifications to the rules for the current mardave class - saying that, not actual rule changes necessarily but more gentleman's agreement in advance of any rule changes at the back end of the year :

1. Stop using the VRXTC alloy rear hub (expensive and against the spirit of the class)

2. Allow the use of Z-drive/ delrin spur and also allow 48dp spur gears. Quite a few people have the z-drive already for reliability and they are not a performance enhancer and in the scheme of things are low cost.

3. Allow heat sinks (did not realise they were an issue anyway before this thread ) - the motors can get hot and like Maz says, not even worth discussing.

4. Are comm drops an issue?

Have I missed anything??


At the end of the day we just need to be sensible - we need to allow a few add-ons as it is part of the fun, but know where to draw the line.

Paul
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  #11  
Old 08-10-2011
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bedsrcmcc bedsrcmcc is offline
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Paul,

I think it's a fair compromise to ban the motor mounts but to allow the other items to be permitted. I was looking around last night and I think there are too many drivers now running those Z-drive/delrin spur setups to ban them now.

As you and others say, they are not performance enhancing so I'm happy to see them stay.

I'll amend the rules on the site in due course.
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  #12  
Old 14-10-2011
shunt69 shunt69 is offline
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As a relative newcomer to RC car racing I have read these comments and posts with great interest.
I came along to Beds RCMCC following my son Brandon looking on the internet for a suitable place to race the 4wd buggy he got for xmas.
When we got here, we found out that there were plans to race buggies later but for now it was touring cars or mardaves indoors.
Well, we couldn't afford 1 touring car let alone 3!! So we 3 boys clubbed together, went to Russell's the next day and bought one off the shelf. When we got home I stripped an old HPI car that had been lying about for a couple of years for the servo and esc and radio gear and made the mardave up.
We came along to Bromham the following Friday and the 3 of us have never looked back. We really enjoy the racing and are constantly barracking each other and always trying to outdo each other. The general bonhommie and friendliness between everyone that turns up to the race meets is one of the main reasons we keep coming along.
I now have to keep a close eye over my shoulder as they are both nipping at my heels and seem to get better much quicker than I do.....

Liam's car (No2) was bought on eBay for less than £50 with servo esc and spares. 2.4Ghz radio gear cost £30

Brandon then took over the new car we'd bought and I got another cheap (£45) off eBay (sorry Russell)
So far the most expensive thing we've had to buy other than the cars is batteries.
I know my esc was once the cause of speculation but following a swap with a HPI one of Pauls I can confidently say that there is no real difference in performance.

The real difference in performance comes from the batteries you use.
I have spoken with Graham, Paul and Brian (Roberts dad) and the general concensus is that the real difference is in the batteries, so long as the chassis and tyres are set up properly, and the charger you use is suitable.

The batteries I currently use are 4300mAh matched cells that I
bought again from eBay and because they are 2nd hand and both cost less than a tenner. Yes I took a bit of a chance but it seems to have paid off. Both in terms of cost and performance. (result!!!)
The boys batteries are both 3300mAh and cost a tenner each from 'VAPEXTECH' directly.

However all that said and judging from the amount of relatively standard cars regularly attending each week, I think a standard class should still be the main focus of the club. Primarily to keep ongoing costs to a minimum and to keep attracting 'new blood' to the club.
As a parent of 2 entusiastic drivers and as a racer myself anything we can do to keep costs down is a big plus.
Though I say standard loosley as everyone has different tyres, tyre size and differing battery packs. Some have a power capacitor, I'll bet none of them are rated at the same values and the true benefit is in driver confidence.
If a modded class is introduced then it should be allowed to showcase the technical posibilities available irrespective of cost, but I would have to strongly suggest, given that the top drivers are now lapping standard Mardaves as quick as the touring cars, then it should run alonside the TC's or a joint street tc/modded mardave class. This would leave the current successfull mardave series to run unadultered to the enjoyment of all.

It would also fill the grid of the tc's giving them some competition.

Jason

Brandon, Liam and I will be staying with the loosley un-modded class of Mardaves, well within the rules and general spirit of the club.
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