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View Poll Results: lipo list
keep the rules as current efra/eb 18 12.00%
allow some discression have a 1 or 2mm tolerance to cover comercially available cells 93 62.00%
i would consider not doing a BRCA sanctioned meeting if i could not do lipo 68 45.33%
i will race brca sanctioned events no matter what 36 24.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 10-11-2008
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I'm not against having to buy new cells to comply with the rules as long as there are some saddles available to race with next season I'm ok with it.

But it is annoying that the cells I have are only very slightly over sized and are therefore illegal, but if no saddles are available I won't be buying Nimh just so I can compete regionally, doing that would be a backwards step, I'd rather wait a year and see what the situation is then.
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  #42  
Old 10-11-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RcRob View Post
Did the '4200' generation of cells fit into cars without some minor work? I don't think they did, but nobody cared.

What do you think would be harder for Joe Bloggs, soldering up 6x cells in saddle formation (which requires a soldering iron, battery jig, battery bars, etc) or installing some extended battery posts when he builds the car.

I know which I'd rather be doing...
I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting.
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  #43  
Old 10-11-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss View Post
I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

it takes a bigger soldering iron to solder cells proprly than you would use to solder wires

how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting. then he would have to be a BRCA member!!!Club meetings are not brca sanctioned! a BRCA sanctioned meeting is a meeting run for or by the section
ie off road brca nationals, off road brca regional

if joe goes to those chances are his cells and motors may not be on the EB list anyway if he is a car park basher

posted responce to each bit in bold!
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  #44  
Old 10-11-2008
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the only chassis that require saddle lipo's are high level competition 4wd cars. Little jonny basher is not going to spend the money on a B44, lipos and balancing charger, KO universe and servo etc, just to bash.
He will get a tamiya with stick pack and cheap charger, or a nitro rtr.
The only people who will run a competition 4wd are regular club racers or above, and these people will be quite used to modifying cars.

I understand the point the BRCA are making about cells being compatible, but in reality, anyone who is planning on using this stuff will be perfectly used to making minor adjustments, so the argument really doesn't hold much water.

It would be interesting to find the numbers of saddle packs currently in circulation in the UK that are being used by racers, and those that race at BRCA regionals or nationals.
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2008
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Anyway didn't want to get in a long discussion about all the details.

Basically the BRCA do an excellent job and I am sure their decision will be based on what's best for all
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  #46  
Old 10-11-2008
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Originally Posted by Swiss
I can't exsclusively say that out of all the models of cars available, that some didn't require work to fit the 4200. I can say that the 2 models I run, neither needed work.

Surely he will have the soldering iron, solder to install the electrics in the car, so the facts of the matter are whether putting the cells together is comparible to modifying the car to fit the LiPo, (I personally think that extending the battery posts is not the case with all cars).

it takes a bigger soldering iron to solder cells proprly than you would use to solder wires


I don't know many people that have a differant soldering iron for their cells and wiring??????????? In my personal experiance people have one soldering that does everyhting!


how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?

Surely this hobby is about everyone, not just BRCA members.
At some point, Joe Bloggs may be interested in coming a BRCA sanctioned club/regional meeting. then he would have to be a BRCA member!!!Club meetings are not brca sanctioned! a BRCA sanctioned meeting is a meeting run for or by the section
ie off road brca nationals, off road brca regional

if joe goes to those chances are his cells and motors may not be on the EB list anyway if he is a car park basher


Their secound car may be more than a car park basher.... So still with relatively little experiance, and with the forethought of not having to purchase more equipment in the future. They may wish to purchase a more 'competative model'

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  #47  
Old 10-11-2008
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i havent really read this in detail but the only thing ive found is the protective casework makes them oversize and not the actual cell so what is the problem do the brca want us to run a lipo that is squeezed into a case or one that is correctly fitted from my experience (helicopters) the flightpower (trakpower) has been by far the safest and best quality lipo on the market so do we run cheap rebadged chinese crap or the safe option
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  #48  
Old 10-11-2008
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Hi Guys

I am just starting out with off road (run on road for years) but dont want to go back to nimhs as I sold chargers dischargers equalisers etc last year and lost a fortune to go to lipo/brushless and would not buy them again as lipo is definately a lot easier.

So I would miss out on regionals & nationals if I had to use cells as it would not just be the price of cells but chargers etc.

I must admit I was shocked when I asked about lipo saddle packs and was told they weren't legal I just presummed that they would be as on road used them (my ignorance showing)

Paul
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  #49  
Old 10-11-2008
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I personally think a grace period of 2-3 years allowing the 1-2mm tolerance which should see people who currently have cells being able to use them for a reasonable amount of time and allow manufacturers such as trakpower to get slightly smaller saddles out to fit within the specifications.

That way imo nobody loses out and I doubt any manufacturers would design new cells oversized for such a short period.
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  #50  
Old 10-11-2008
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Ive been racing touring for the last ten years and have decided to get back into off road racing for a couple of reasons the main factor is cost brushless in my opion is one of the best thing to happen to rc cars and the other is lipos ive had three packs of nimh cells go bang in 2007 all new cells at £60 a pop litrealy (£180) in total and its not though misuse before you all jump on that it is purly down to getting maximum performance to keep at the top of the list ive also had brushless motors go bang again to sqeeze every last bit of performance which leads me into the second reason for coming back to off raod racing racing pro stock class in tc and being one of the best in class in the uk winning the carpetwars 3 times and the stcc twice and cant rember how many top ten natinals the problem is maxing every thing to the limit. the point im trying to make as for lipos the tc rules seem to work cap the capasity to 5000mah what does it matter about size there are plenty of options out there if one cell doesn't fit use a diffrent type cos the manufactures will soon change designs to suit the have in tc racing eg (xray 2009 AE tc5 and more) but going back to sub c cell would be very bad news for off road racing we want easy hassel free racing brushless and lipos job done. as for brca sanctuned events not being brca event fo the club is a bad thing from the reason if your a new cummer to the sport you want to find out more about rc cars the first thing you would tend to look up is a guverning body (brca) then you would look at were can i race oh i cant find no brca in my area lets go race a tc its pretty simple if you ask me. to sumerise lipos with capasity limited to 5000 mah (its cheaper than nihm) and brca to allow lipos and to sacntune the events.

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  #51  
Old 10-11-2008
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i think you broke Ashleys record for longest sentence!

Are the touring car guys not bound by the same EB list as offroad? I thought the motors and cells list applied to all electric BRCA sanctioned classes?
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  #52  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim76 View Post
i think you broke Ashleys record for longest sentence!

Are the touring car guys not bound by the same EB list as offroad? I thought the motors and cells list applied to all electric BRCA sanctioned classes?

to be honest im not sure but there are no saddle packs on the list on the central booking site and this size tolarence this is the first ive heard about it with a tc if the cells dont fit under the top deck you simply raise it or put a smaller cell in.

i was never very good at grammer
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  #53  
Old 10-11-2008
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It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.
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  #54  
Old 10-11-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benh View Post
I don't think they are dropping the BRCA. They may be dropping the BRCA's rules as a guide for their series. (I wait to be corrected)

As far as dropping the BRCA, a region would not participate in a BRCA sanctioned event, ie BRCA regionals.

The East of England, a struggling region is seriously considering this. The EoE regional AGM, in the next couple of weeks, should be very interesting.
I'm not even going to bother with what I think about the last part of this post.........
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  #55  
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am i correct in understanding the rule is lipos should be the same size as a nimh cell if so that surly cant be possibe as a nihm is round and a lipo is rectangular and why would this rule even been invented to keep the car manufactures happy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Spencer View Post
It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.
yeah i totaly agree but what i will say in defence there never seems to be much information any were about off road racing the brca site always seem to be a little slow to let people know whats going on not just off road all classes of rc racing. the tc have the central booking site which is very usefull it always upto date race results up and comming events lipo list etc.

i also agree its a little late for the efra as you says its been decided but what about us here in the uk is it to late to have brca sanctuned events alowing lipos and bigger cells?
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  #57  
Old 11-11-2008
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No one seems to have answered Marks questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
how good shops would sell a car and incompatable cells?
None if they are a decent shop, which means nearly all shops will still sell nimhs with kit deals.
Quote:
how many joe bloggs do actually fit none standard parts?
Very few, just a tiny percentage. The vast majority of r/c buyers will run whatever car they have as standard, these days even taking it back to the shop to be repaired when a wishbone breaks.

Just remember that whatever is popular at your own club does not mean it's popular everywhere else.
Even amongst the average club racers very few cars are modified from standard, a quick survey of my local club shows only two cars out of thirty uses none standard parts, most of the others are as they come without any manufacturers option parts either. The two modified cars both had home made battery straps instead of taping the nimh batteries in place. Out of those 30 cars one ran Orion lipos and one bike racer was using a suitably protected soft case lipo, the rest ran nimh.
Quote:
how many joe bloggs would race at brca meetings let alone be a member?
Again very few. I think the number is something like only 5% actually race at all, with obviously an even smaller percentage taking part in BRCA meetings. This means battery packs such as the Trakpower ones which are outside the BRCA rules have almost as big a market as BRCA legal ones, including the majority of club racers.
Quote:
joe bloggs on the street can fit an 11 volt pack, as he aint bothered what rules are
Yes he can choose whatever he likes with no need to follow a BRCA list, except to capture some of this bigger market the battery pack needs to fit in the most popular cars such as the Tamiya TT-01. Outside of serious racers this is why the Yeah Racing pack seems to be the most popular and very few of them have ever heard of Trakpower.
It looks like the first lithium technology to reach the Joe Bloggs runners will actually be A123, Tamiya are releasing a 2200mah 6.6v pack at the end of the year.



It's obvious why this poll was started by Mark, to get some support to either try and persuade the BRCA to change the dimensions rules (not possible until it can be voted on at next years AGM), or get the EB to tweak the rules to get Trakpower saddle pack batteries legal for racing.

So far there has been no indication at all from the EB whether they will be allowing or not allowing the Trakpower packs, and we won't know the details until January. I presume any discussions on the matter will be made between the EFRA and BRCA committees, the EB and the various battery manufacturers, whish should include Trakpower, and for the EB to decide which batteries are legal, not a few people expressing their opinion on a board biased in favour of the Trakpower packs.
There are alternative saddle packs already available which are within the dimensions, but again until January we will not know whether those ones are on the EB list either.

If Trakpower want their batteries accepted Trakpower should be discussing this with the relevant people, not having their representative using forums to inflame the situation before we even know whether they are on the list or not. More importantly they should have made sure they had a spokesman at the the relevant discussions at the BRCA AGM, or became an Associate member of EFRA so the company can be involved in discussions at the EFRA AGM, both of which would have made sure the problem of saddle pack case size would have been discussed.

I know Mark was at the AGM but Trakpower should have
1) checked the proposals and made sure there was a proposal submitted beforehand with the bigger dimension
2) made sure there was someone representing them at the meeting, knowing Mark would not guaranteed to be available, that could have put their point across at the AGM. If the BRCA members there had voted for a proposal for a longer case length for saddle packs then none of these discussions would be taking place.
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  #58  
Old 11-11-2008
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Ay least 2 people have now been on here saying all we needed to do was go to the agm and ask for bigger sizes. My understanding though was the EFRA size proposal had already been submitted by then so the agm made no difference on the dimensions. Am I mistaken? When could we have affected the EFRA proposal??
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  #59  
Old 11-11-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
No one seems to have answered Marks questions.None if they are a decent shop, which means nearly all shops will still sell nimhs with kit deals.Very few, just a tiny percentage. The vast majority of r/c buyers will run whatever car they have as standard, these days even taking it back to the shop to be repaired when a wishbone breaks.

Just remember that whatever is popular at your own club does not mean it's popular everywhere else.
Even amongst the average club racers very few cars are modified from standard, a quick survey of my local club shows only two cars out of thirty uses none standard parts, most of the others are as they come without any manufacturers option parts either. The two modified cars both had home made battery straps instead of taping the nimh batteries in place. Out of those 30 cars one ran Orion lipos and one bike racer was using a suitably protected soft case lipo, the rest ran nimh.
Again very few. I think the number is something like only 5% actually race at all, with obviously an even smaller percentage taking part in BRCA meetings. This means battery packs such as the Trakpower ones which are outside the BRCA rules have almost as big a market as BRCA legal ones, including the majority of club racers.
Yes he can choose whatever he likes with no need to follow a BRCA list, except to capture some of this bigger market the battery pack needs to fit in the most popular cars such as the Tamiya TT-01. Outside of serious racers this is why the Yeah Racing pack seems to be the most popular and very few of them have ever heard of Trakpower.
It looks like the first lithium technology to reach the Joe Bloggs runners will actually be A123, Tamiya are releasing a 2200mah 6.6v pack at the end of the year.



It's obvious why this poll was started by Mark, to get some support to either try and persuade the BRCA to change the dimensions rules (not possible until it can be voted on at next years AGM), or get the EB to tweak the rules to get Trakpower saddle pack batteries legal for racing.

So far there has been no indication at all from the EB whether they will be allowing or not allowing the Trakpower packs, and we won't know the details until January. I presume any discussions on the matter will be made between the EFRA and BRCA committees, the EB and the various battery manufacturers, whish should include Trakpower, and for the EB to decide which batteries are legal, not a few people expressing their opinion on a board biased in favour of the Trakpower packs.
There are alternative saddle packs already available which are within the dimensions, but again until January we will not know whether those ones are on the EB list either.

If Trakpower want their batteries accepted Trakpower should be discussing this with the relevant people, not having their representative using forums to inflame the situation before we even know whether they are on the list or not. More importantly they should have made sure they had a spokesman at the the relevant discussions at the BRCA AGM, or became an Associate member of EFRA so the company can be involved in discussions at the EFRA AGM, both of which would have made sure the problem of saddle pack case size would have been discussed.

I know Mark was at the AGM but Trakpower should have
1) checked the proposals and made sure there was a proposal submitted beforehand with the bigger dimension
2) made sure there was someone representing them at the meeting, knowing Mark would not guaranteed to be available, that could have put their point across at the AGM. If the BRCA members there had voted for a proposal for a longer case length for saddle packs then none of these discussions would be taking place.
terry
i am not a represtative/employee of trakpower im simply sponsored by them as are many

please read my 1st post im interested to see what racers think, if the coverning body read this all well and done BUT if it went the other way on the voting id be cool with that too, its a public poll in a public forum, nothing official!!!

i was at tha agm but could not make the off road section as i wasin the ic 10th section as vice chairman

there was a trakpower representative at the off road section agm who did not vote, so your facts are wrong.......... unfortunatly when they (the drivers) wanted to discuss dimensions they were not allowed to so how could thay vote on a larger dimension
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  #60  
Old 11-11-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Spencer View Post
It's odd you know..

I could have sworn blind that I went into a school class room a few weeks ago and there were only a couple of dozen people there.. discussing what rules they wanted for 2009?

And yet I come on here now, and lots of folk are discussing what rules they want for 2009..

Bit late isn't it?

Because not enough of you put proposals in (which in all likelyhood would have got things kicked into line at our end) we end up waiting to see what the Europeans do to determine the dimensions we're going to run to over here

So you have most of what the pro LiPo folk want, we can race them, surely that's the most important thing?

If you had wanted to nail it down in one go you've missed your oportunity I'm afraid, the EFRA meeting has several key players from the trade present - makes a huge difference when their opinions are aired, it was an interesting meeting to say the least..

Lastly some of the folk posting on here, should be ashamed - you know how this works - you could have done it yourselves and got it spot on - you have the knowledge that's needed to make things like this work correctly.
But you didn't, you left it to that mythical bloke 'somebody else' and it's ended up not quite what you wanted - It's your fault i'm afraid.

Lastly THE BRCA is you lot, it's all of US.
- there's more of YOU on here than there was at the AGM sorting out YOUR sport for you - have a long hard think about that, and get it right next time - have your say at the right time and the right place, and it'll work better for it.
jim fair point but those present were NOT allowed to discuss dimension.................... so thats why were in this situation, not who went or how many, they were simply not allowed to talk about it!
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