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  #41  
Old 04-04-2008
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I have gotta be honest, all this sounds a bit much, after all we are talking about TOY cars here. These cars are toys and we r hardly talking about the F1 championship here. Its a hobby that should be enjoyed not complicated IMO.
Why would the BRCA want to fix something that isnt broken? Just a suggestion to Manufacturer pressure? If you ask me (as a newcomer to RC) the BRCA seem to spoil racing IMO and seem to be grumpy so and so's that just make things hard and cost more! But i dunno, would racing be non-existent without the BRCA?

To be honest i shouldnt really comment cos i havent had much racing experience but thats just how it seems from my expeience so far.
Andy
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  #42  
Old 04-04-2008
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Yes, it is toy car racing. but it does need the rules and the racing is as competitive and close as real racing, so it needs the rules.

The thing we are discussing is what rule to go for in 2008. It is us who choose the rules, and its the BRCA who work it, and they work it well, so please don't diss them, they're only a group of fellow hobbyists who are good enough to put the time in to this aside from there careers etc.
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  #43  
Old 04-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b4rs View Post
its all right for you sponsored lot! us un sponsored sods have buy all our own equipment.
which means a full new set of 5c batteries.
never mind slower cars etc.
Or you unsolder a cell from your current 6 cell packs and make a 5th pack up out of your 'spare' cells like I did for my touring car exploits.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2008
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go to be honnest, nimh or lipo, why should the car be restricted? the driver should be the restriced item and he/she should be free to choose cells and motor (dont curent rules allow 5 cell anyway? so why enforce it on everyone else?)

please dont make Off road like TC, lots of rules, not as much atmosphere and all about wringing the last tenth out of the car

i have found buggies to be fun, cheap, rewarding to drive (more down to driver than set up) oh and did i say fun
also the atmoshere and racers seem allot better as in willing to help/chat etc

take a look at how buggies are growin and TC is shrinking
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  #45  
Old 05-04-2008
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If you don't want 5 cells or you do want lipos then make the proposal prior to the next agm and then go and vote for (or against) what you want.
That's how the BRCA sets it's rules.
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  #46  
Old 05-04-2008
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Originally Posted by peetbee View Post
If you don't want 5 cells or you do want lipos then make the proposal prior to the next agm and then go and vote for (or against) what you want.
That's how the BRCA sets it's rules.
i know im a BRCA comittee member
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  #47  
Old 05-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
i know im a BRCA comittee member
Awesome, so I assume lipo's would have been proposed? Is there anywhere to see what has been proposed and what hasn't and when is the AGM (assuming it's still due)?
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  #48  
Old 05-04-2008
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Carl, the AGM is traditionally around mid October ....... so yes it is still to come in 08 but to set 09 rules.
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  #49  
Old 05-04-2008
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Carl, the AGM is traditionally around mid October ....... so yes it is still to come in 08 but to set 09 rules.
Thanks Roger!
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  #50  
Old 06-04-2008
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EFRA
Normally the way this works is that each driver is a member of a club. He/she can suggest a rule change either via the club or directly to the BRCA (at least it's like this in Norway). Std. forms are used. I would guess also BRCA has a AGM before november, where all the clubs in the UK vote over suggestions. Those passed will then be passed on to the EFRA AGM in november. Again std. forms are used. BUT! Suggestions to the EFRA AGM has to be delivered to them early august!!! So often you're one year "behind schedule"... -and all you can vote over is proposals from other countries, that were delivered to EFRA in time. I also assume BRCA adopt all new EFRA rules (?). If you wanna be "pro active" like Chris points out, you must do this NOW! And make sure BRCA hands in the proposal before august!

All I know is that LiPos were discussed at last years EFRA AGM, and one thought it would most likely be legal 2009 onwards.

It being legal in 1:10 OR in ROAR (USA) now, and working well I think makes this even more likely for EFRA.

5 CELLS
We did this most of the 2007 season in both classes. To get weight down and to reduce power slightly. BUT - my experience says:
-runtime is much shorter, even with quite new batteries
-you need quite new & good batteries to have enough power
I don't think UK would suffer much in any case. But in most european countries 1:10 OR is still quite small. We therefore need it to be a low-cost & fun class in order to make it grow. I'm afraid it would leave out the low-budget racers. We even have guys running 3300 batteries still...

MY SUGGESTION
We don't need any "restrictions" in 1:10 OR as to number of cells, volt etc. You're normally overpowered anyway! It's a "non problem"! IMHO we only need rules now in order to assure that the batteries are safe! So I say give us LiPos or whatever may come, but the governing bodies like EFRA and BRCA must test whether these are safe to use. AND give clear rules as to safe charging and storage etc. In Norway we have already implemented:
-max. 1C charge
-lowest possible mV setting must be used
-re-peaking not allowed

I've been using LiPo in RC airplanes for years, and I simply LOVE them! Together with B/L they're outstanding! I was a bit scared to begin using them, hearing stories about "Darwin Awards" candidates in the US burning down cars and houses... but neither me or anyone I know has had any problems at all!

I charge them and leave them in the "LiPo Sack" (fire safe), then go flying when I have the time or urge to do so... and it doesen't even matter if they've been lying there charged for weeks... still full power and runtime! Rest assure, this is the future (for now)!

Keep in mind that LiPos have 40% longer effective runtime. Can be "re-filled", does not need to be emptied again. Can be used for several seasons and still be good as new. Inexpensive and so on. AND! The charging method is very simple and hence the chargers are mere giveaways compared to NiMH chargers!

The low weight also puts your car under the min. weight limit without any other fuzz! It's dog's bollocks!
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  #51  
Old 06-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
i know im a BRCA comittee member
To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding for those who do not know you, your are not a committee member of the 1/0th Off Road Section.
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  #52  
Old 06-04-2008
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Originally Posted by stuartw View Post
To avoid any confusion and misunderstanding for those who do not know you, your are not a committee member of the 1/0th Off Road Section.
yup true, never claimed to be, even so being a BRCA comittee member has the same role no matter what class and we know how the systems work, as BRCA members we also have the right to vote/stand on any section we want to. the only thing that differs are individual section rules, which is why we all get a little book to read
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  #53  
Old 06-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogger View Post
Awesome, so I assume lipo's would have been proposed? Is there anywhere to see what has been proposed and what hasn't and when is the AGM (assuming it's still due)?
i doubt they have been as of yet, sections normally put a call out for proposals prior to the AGM, they than have to be published so racers can see whats comming, its then a case of going to the relevent section to vote/discuss what you want to happen, you can also vote in different sections or move between meetings, your not tied to one section.
for 2008 wh have the rules as per handbook.
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  #54  
Old 06-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
actually it does
since moving to 5 cell, even the top TC drivers (olly jeffries, and world champ and moore can dump, on new fresh cells!
take a cell away and the amp draw goes up giving less duration and life ( please note i am refering to current TC cars, BUT they are exeriencing this and the reality is all the same)
lee last line, spot on, apart from allowing lipo as BRCA TC have

Well in off road you'll not be as hard on the cells as we are in TC so I shouldn't think you'll see any issues with battery life. Even if you used a 4.5 instead of a 5.5 you'll still have plenty of runtime so amp draw won't be too bad. With a 4.5 in TC you can gun it for a whole run and still have some runtime left at the end of a run.
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  #55  
Old 06-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHY View Post
EFRA
Normally the way this works is that each driver is a member of a club. He/she can suggest a rule change either via the club or directly to the BRCA (at least it's like this in Norway). Std. forms are used. I would guess also BRCA has a AGM before november, where all the clubs in the UK vote over suggestions. Those passed will then be passed on to the EFRA AGM in november. Again std. forms are used. BUT! Suggestions to the EFRA AGM has to be delivered to them early august!!! So often you're one year "behind schedule"... -and all you can vote over is proposals from other countries, that were delivered to EFRA in time. I also assume BRCA adopt all new EFRA rules (?). If you wanna be "pro active" like Chris points out, you must do this NOW! And make sure BRCA hands in the proposal before august!

All I know is that LiPos were discussed at last years EFRA AGM, and one thought it would most likely be legal 2009 onwards.

It being legal in 1:10 OR in ROAR (USA) now, and working well I think makes this even more likely for EFRA.

5 CELLS
We did this most of the 2007 season in both classes. To get weight down and to reduce power slightly. BUT - my experience says:
-runtime is much shorter, even with quite new batteries
-you need quite new & good batteries to have enough power
I don't think UK would suffer much in any case. But in most european countries 1:10 OR is still quite small. We therefore need it to be a low-cost & fun class in order to make it grow. I'm afraid it would leave out the low-budget racers. We even have guys running 3300 batteries still...

MY SUGGESTION
We don't need any "restrictions" in 1:10 OR as to number of cells, volt etc. You're normally overpowered anyway! It's a "non problem"! IMHO we only need rules now in order to assure that the batteries are safe! So I say give us LiPos or whatever may come, but the governing bodies like EFRA and BRCA must test whether these are safe to use. AND give clear rules as to safe charging and storage etc. In Norway we have already implemented:
-max. 1C charge
-lowest possible mV setting must be used
-re-peaking not allowed

I've been using LiPo in RC airplanes for years, and I simply LOVE them! Together with B/L they're outstanding! I was a bit scared to begin using them, hearing stories about "Darwin Awards" candidates in the US burning down cars and houses... but neither me or anyone I know has had any problems at all!

I charge them and leave them in the "LiPo Sack" (fire safe), then go flying when I have the time or urge to do so... and it doesen't even matter if they've been lying there charged for weeks... still full power and runtime! Rest assure, this is the future (for now)!

Keep in mind that LiPos have 40% longer effective runtime. Can be "re-filled", does not need to be emptied again. Can be used for several seasons and still be good as new. Inexpensive and so on. AND! The charging method is very simple and hence the chargers are mere giveaways compared to NiMH chargers!

The low weight also puts your car under the min. weight limit without any other fuzz! It's dog's bollocks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs View Post
Well in off road you'll not be as hard on the cells as we are in TC so I shouldn't think you'll see any issues with battery life. Even if you used a 4.5 instead of a 5.5 you'll still have plenty of runtime so amp draw won't be too bad. With a 4.5 in TC you can gun it for a whole run and still have some runtime left at the end of a run.
Fabs have you actually tried it?
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  #56  
Old 06-04-2008
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I ran a 4.5 at carpet wars all winter and never dumped whilst gunning it all the way. You'll never use as much power in a buggy... I ran my 4.5 in 6-cell at worksop once and had to back the timing down a lot to be able to drive it... Ran it the week after at the Petit RC race and people were asking me what cells I had that's how quick the car was... They never realised I had a 4.5...

If I'm not mistaken the actual rules state that you can run 5 cells but you need to have the 6th in the car, meaning you're not gaining anything weight wise. A cell is roughly 68g and we've found it to make quite a difference in TC and I believe in buggy it would also. So trying it following the actual rules won't mean anything, since you'll not have any of the benefits of running at lower weight.

I'm not saying it's the way forward, I'm saying it won't be as hard on cells as in TC where we dump a pack with our 3.5s and other silly winds...
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  #57  
Old 06-04-2008
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cheers for clarifying it, thats makes sense

rule for cells reads 25.1 cars will be driven by a maximun of six rechargable cells, which can not be replaced after a race has started.

says nothing about 6 having to be in the car!
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2008
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Fair enough, I'm 100% sure at the worlds in italy some drivers (even in the A) used 5-cells but had to put a 6th one in their cars due to the rules, so I thought it would be the same over here.
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  #59  
Old 06-04-2008
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At the Worlds the drivers used 5 cells in the car by fitting an extra connector to the 6 cell packs, rather than building 5 cell specific packs. For example Neil Cragg ran 6 cells with 14 turn motors in qualifying, but changed to 5 cells and 12 turn for the finals. By sticking an extra tube on the battery it saved a lot of messing about reconfiguring everything for 3 races.

Keeping 6 cells in the pack gives you the choice of voltage, keeps the weight the same and makes it easy to fit the battery in the holder made for 6 cells.
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  #60  
Old 06-04-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs View Post
I ran a 4.5 at carpet wars all winter and never dumped whilst gunning it all the way. You'll never use as much power in a buggy... I ran my 4.5 in 6-cell at worksop once and had to back the timing down a lot to be able to drive it... Ran it the week after at the Petit RC race and people were asking me what cells I had that's how quick the car was... They never realised I had a 4.5...

If I'm not mistaken the actual rules state that you can run 5 cells but you need to have the 6th in the car, meaning you're not gaining anything weight wise. A cell is roughly 68g and we've found it to make quite a difference in TC and I believe in buggy it would also. So trying it following the actual rules won't mean anything, since you'll not have any of the benefits of running at lower weight.

I'm not saying it's the way forward, I'm saying it won't be as hard on cells as in TC where we dump a pack with our 3.5s and other silly winds...
1) I don't agree, I've tried this and runtime is much less. For us "serious" racers we'll be ok with fresh high-capacity cells. But for Joe Racer a 5 cell rule would be negative. The not so good racers also traditionally try to compensate for lack of skills by running a lower wind motor = double trouble...

2) You're wrong. IFMAR rules state you must have 6 cells onboard, not EFRA and BRCA. You can run 5 cells if you like now. So why make an uneccesary rule out of this?

Why not be able to run 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... or what ever cells you like? It really doesen't matter!
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