Homologation, Rules and Scrutineering

[Neil Skull]

Originally Posted by jimmy

The problem is, if you read what Terry said - it's a complete misquote. He somehow missed the fact I was talking about unrestricted class that's limited by skill and keeping a car on its wheels. There is no need to over charge cells - it doesn't happen.
Please prove me wrong.

Hi Jimmy, I do agree that in Unrestricted class it does not make any sense but people do charge at high C ratings as they heard so and so does and he's the fastest. I was quite surprised when I saw this voltage check being done last year but actually its a very small check and I guess if no problems was found over the season in off road you could argue no point in checking this year!

[luniemiester]

Some interesting points in this thread, I have one question though.

Why is it mandatory that you have to attend the agm to have a vote. There are a lot of Brca members who cannot either afford to or give the time to travel to the Agm and this "turn up and vote if you don't like it" does seem a bit antiquated in the digital age.

Surely the sections can have a questionnaire on their Brca page which you can submit your proposals or ideas and then be able to vote on the changes after you have logged in?

As regards cells and motors etc i run both ezrun 5.5 and speed passion 10.5 (in case someone moans - I prefer the ezrun as its waterproof). Both perform similar for what I need but one is twice the price of the other. I got my ezrun from a uk shop but my speed passion from abroad. Does that mean its not legal even though its on the list because I didn't get it from a uk source as per homologation?

I have 2 Brca legal packs and 2 nanotech I got from hobbyking uk. The nanotech are by far a better battery than the Brca legal packs, never swell or get hot and balance perfect. Price under £25 delivered against the others I got from Hong Kong for £44 delivered. I know which ones I will buy again.....

[Garry]

Originally Posted by luniemiester

Some interesting points in this thread, I have one question though.

Why is it mandatory that you have to attend the agm to have a vote. There are a lot of Brca members who cannot either afford to or give the time to travel to the Agm and this "turn up and vote if you don't like it" does seem a bit antiquated in the digital age.

Its been mentioned every year for the last 8-10 years and the answer is always the same - the proposals presented before the AGM are always discussed on the floor and amended/reworded to fine tune them before they are voted on. As you can't do that on a website in real-time, you can't do online voting without the proposals being so damned rigid, that the wrong phrasing could and would screw up a whole seasons worth of racing.

I don't think many people realise this, but its entirely possible to run a season of racing outdoors with cool funny people, and have close competition and fun antics without needing to have anything to do with the BRCA. The RRCI series is a perfect example. Its not simple, but its doable.

Talk to clubs, get dates, arrange insurance cover, make your own classes and rules, and job done. Happens all the time in America.

[luniemiester]

Hopefully that's what the oople series will be !

All you really need is the tyre rule and mates to have fun with!

[Garry]

Thats exactly it. The BRCA is a great organisation which has its roots at the dawn of RC racing in the UK, its a fantastic asset to the hobby in general, not just us in Britain. However, the BRCA gets made into a scapegoat sometimes, people saying ''why aren't THEY doing this or that'' or ''THEY are stopping us from doing what we want'' etc.

The reality is that the BRCA is just one way of enjoying our awesome hobby. Just one form of structured racing (for now). Lots of clubs use the BRCA rulesets for ease of use, its ready and set there for everyone to see. And of course, the BRCA insurance is invaluable.

Its not just the only option though.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Hi Jimmy, I do agree that in Unrestricted class it does not make any sense but people do charge at high C ratings as they heard so and so does and he's the fastest. I was quite surprised when I saw this voltage check being done last year but actually its a very small check and I guess if no problems was found over the season in off road you could argue no point in checking this year!

I have a Thunder Power 3800mAh shorty 2s LiPo herer, which is rate at a max charge of 12c (45A), now, if I am using a decent charger, no matter what I charge at, it should never EVER go above 8.4v, so charging at high C ratings (as long as it is in accordance with manufacturers guidelines) and using a LiPo charger on the correct profile, you will never get an overcharge, charging on a NiMH/NiCD setting will though. So if your significantly over the limit, then surely you are cheating?

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by jimmy

Terry - you can't read and you either agreed with me in your replies or misunderstood, or just went off on a tangent. You have absolutely no clue sir, no clue at all.

If someone wants to start racing where would you suggest they go, oOple or BRCA website for info? I know what I think, I know I'm a helpful considerate guy - and I also see outside the box that you're stuck in.

If you think I'm a wanker - call me a wanker - don't dick about. I call it like I see it - why you keep ranting on about 12th scale I've no idea. We don't overcharge cells in 10th off road, end of.
I think you're completely out of touch, not sure if I mentioned that, but you are.

My point is that your opinion is entirely focused on 1/10th off road. The Electric Board and the homologation lists were all created for the on road classes, and they will always be there.

If you have a problem with the motor and lipo rules and the EB lists in off road, then the solution is to propose and convince your fellow racers to vote to not use them at the AGM.

Complaining because you don't agree with the EB rules and want to change them isn't going to happen unless you can persuade all the other electric classes that use them to control their equipment isn't going to happen. All the motor and battery rules have been put there for the good of the racers who want to use the lists.

I have raced in most electric categories, both on and off road. Different classes have completely different needs and should be treated separately. So off road has got more power than grip, that's great. But there are many other classes that need to limit what motors and batteries are used, and need to try and keep a level playing field.

So off road doesn't overcharge their lipos because there is no need to. Fine, so therefore it's a rule that buggy racers would never break anyway. Getting every last bit of voltage is why we all bought IB4200s because they had less than a tenth of a volt higher average discharge voltage. Other classes with motor limits use bigger and bigger capacity lipos because again it gives a slightly higher average voltage during the race. In other classes it can make a big difference so you can't dismiss a general rule for all sections just because it wouldn't make a difference in off road. Deciding it's stupid just because buggy racers don't do it is deliberately ignoring every other electric class that is run. Go watch a touring car national and see how they will do everything to get every last fraction of a second out of their car. personally I think they all take it way too seriously considering we are just playing with toy cars for a hobby.

The voltage limit is also a nice simple way of protecting the BRCA from liability, you want to overcharge your cells then go ahead but the BRCA won't be helping you if you set fire to the hall you are in. If you are wanting changes to general rules you really want to think further afield than just off road, after all no one would be happy if the touring car boys were imposing rules on the off road sections. Being 'in touch' with what buggy racers think doesn't mean you are in touch with all other sections.

If you have a problem with any rule and the majority of racers in your section think the same then there is nothing stopping you changing it. That's the whole point of the AGM, if you or anyone else thinks a rule is stupid or unworkable there is nothing stopping anyone proposing a change and getting it voted in.

And if someone wanted to know the best place for advice to start racing I would always recommend going to their local club first. Then whether they are on Oople or Racechat they would get the same advice from me.

You are the one that wanted to open up a debate.

[cigbunt]

Terry you posts are very long and dry, some of your good/valid points may get lost in the noise of being boring ( not having a dig just saying)

saying that i don't think your points are not aligned to the average 1/10 racers thoughts and if its regulated by racers this its a bit of a contradiction.

i've never heard of any one trying to over change there cells in 1/10 if you want to go faster you just add boast on your ESC or use a faster motor, some one please correct me if i am wrong.

its sounds like each class should have its own tailored rules or exceptions,

rules are rules and there need to be rules but there ain't nothing wrong with challenging them.

[jimmy]

I was talking solely about 10th off road modified - not Stock in Germany, we don't really have that over here. It's almost completely mod.

I did not complain - I thrust my opinion out there and invited discussion. I have nothing to complain about since I never race in any sanctioned races. I either race at club level or some one-off event. I don't care what lipo or motor or chassis is legal or not for myself. It's my opinion that it's not needed for this class of racing, the one I'm most involved with.
There's nothing more fair that modified - once you restrict the power people cheat. I didn't realise how widespread it was but I had a long conversation with a nameless chap last night who said their stock TC series was almost 'STOCK' now, because everyone knows how to cheat to the same level. Silly.
I never understood stock - it's a good theory but people will always want to be MORE EQUAL.

This is the future of the hobby as a whole, not my demands! I couldn't give a chuff what any sanctioning body does - they can insist everyone buy a purcy or that everyone use an LRP 2.5, whatever they do that isn't good will hurt the sport, what they do that is good will help the sport.
In regards to my initial post - I was clearly referring to the sillyness of some rules (TC's must have loads) and outdated nature of others. You must agree that there was never a level playing field with older technology and in specific reference to electric off road 10th buggies, the technology has taken care of things in terms of fair racing.

Will you see someone go to a big sanctioned event with a £10 lipo? probably not - so why even have a list. The list doesn't apply to regional and club level unless the organisers choose to use them. So you're only talking about national-level really.
I know of a person who ran an entire national season on clearly non-legal cells and it was never picked up on. Was it an unfair advantage? no, he had the option to have free cells that were good but not homologated. Did he cheat? technically yes, does anyone care? probably not. Why? because everyone already knows it's about as fair as it gets.

I'm not speaking in anger or bitterness when I say homologation never did the job of making things equal - you can ask any racer, or indeed yourself - you know the answer. Yes - it might have stopped some sneaky advancements but at the end of the day, the top guys had better stuff. 'Team Packs' are what they called the best rejects.
Now everyone uses lipo's - they're all the same, I mean, too fast!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Mark,
What do you mean Orion is the biggest moan regarding swollen packs?

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Mark,

Just because someone has a swollen or worn out damaged pack it does not mean they will get a FOC replacement. If it did we would be out of business.
Team Orion batteries are used by many people without problems, yes there are issues and we try to deal with them fairly.

Please stop attacking Orion unless you can prove no other brand has Battery failures?

i made one post, you than asked in an open forum to which i replied, if you dont want me to anser in public then dont ask in public!!!
i have not said other dont have issues either

[TARTMAN]

so.
we dont have to run to BRCA rules at large events etc, just arrange insurance. cool. job done.
Clubs, donmt have to run to BRCA rule, just arrange insurance, cool. job done.
BRCA is an option not a requirement............ great......

Lets look into arranging multiclub insurance that we can all sign up to without the need for the BRCA rules.

IF you want to run BRCA rules. they need to be set ones for each class, not an accross the board for all classes as that clearly is not working and to confusing and contradictive....

We need to encourage more newbies, young and old into the sport. The "rules" that are in place makes it confusing and often puts people off. I have had a recent issue at stotfold, regarding the 3 race before having to sign up to brca and they were a returning driver, being told they were not welcome there. The 3 race rule was decided that it would not count this time as a winter race and the driver was deemed not good enough etc etc, This is NOT the attitude to have and the BRCA rule in place was decided it was not applicable to suit the club that day. Discusting attitude, if the BRCA did not have this "power" then the driver would have been in heat one, like any other new/learning driver and we would have made allowances for them, EVERY LAST ONE OF US STARTED THE SAME DAMN WAY! So the BRCA ruling should not have any say in the new drivers etc, but it did. I do not agree with it.
This instance soured me to the BRCA rules somewhat, and it seems the brca and its "racer" reps, have lost there way somewhat. IN MY OPINION ONLY.
The rules that are enforced by the brca are not representative of the racer community as a whole. not even in the slightest.

The comments about come and vote etc etc, Change the rules etc. unless there is an online/postal vote then it wont happen or change. Regarding the comments about doing it at the time on the day etc, rubbish, the rules are made, written down and appear as hard and fast rules. SO. why can those rules be put to a vote, online, with options on the important/large ones regarding motors, lists, esc's, lipos sacks, 3 race rule, events/sactioned etc etc.... Its because the BRCA have had it the same way for decades and dont want to change.

I for one would like a more open and honest BRCA that allows people from all over the UK to be involved in the "whos in and whos out" vote, as well as an online vote to the "RULES" mentioned.

All clubs should have an open door policy no matter who they are to encourage new/returning drivers and what people are alowed to race etc, Its seems to be all politics and hiding behind rules and "blind/secretive" voting.
Debate continues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by TARTMAN

so.
we dont have to run to BRCA rules at large events etc, just arrange insurance. cool. job done.
Clubs, donmt have to run to BRCA rule, just arrange insurance, cool. job done.
BRCA is an option not a requirement............ great......

Lets look into arranging multiclub insurance that we can all sign up to without the need for the BRCA rules.

IF you want to run BRCA rules. they need to be set ones for each class, not an accross the board for all classes as that clearly is not working and to confusing and contradictive....

We need to encourage more newbies, young and old into the sport. The "rules" that are in place makes it confusing and often puts people off. I have had a recent issue at stotfold, regarding the 3 race before having to sign up to brca and they were a returning driver, being told they were not welcome there. The 3 race rule was decided that it would not count this time as a winter race and the driver was deemed not good enough etc etc, This is NOT the attitude to have and the BRCA rule in place was decided it was not applicable to suit the club that day. Discusting attitude, if the BRCA did not have this "power" then the driver would have been in heat one, like any other new/learning driver and we would have made allowances for them, EVERY LAST ONE OF US STARTED THE SAME DAMN WAY! So the BRCA ruling should not have any say in the new drivers etc, but it did. I do not agree with it.
This instance soured me to the BRCA rules somewhat, and it seems the brca and its "racer" reps, have lost there way somewhat. IN MY OPINION ONLY.
The rules that are enforced by the brca are not representative of the racer community as a whole. not even in the slightest.

The comments about come and vote etc etc, Change the rules etc. unless there is an online/postal vote then it wont happen or change. Regarding the comments about doing it at the time on the day etc, rubbish, the rules are made, written down and appear as hard and fast rules. SO. why can those rules be put to a vote, online, with options on the important/large ones regarding motors, lists, esc's, lipos sacks, 3 race rule, events/sactioned etc etc.... Its because the BRCA have had it the same way for decades and dont want to change.

I for one would like a more open and honest BRCA that allows people from all over the UK to be involved in the "whos in and whos out" vote, as well as an online vote to the "RULES" mentioned.

All clubs should have an open door policy no matter who they are to encourage new/returning drivers and what people are alowed to race etc, Its seems to be all politics and hiding behind rules and "blind/secretive" voting.
Debate continues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

Wrong

a club can be in the BRCA and its members, the only rules that club needs to follow are brca general rules, (then the insurance cover is active)
any motors, any lipo nimh gell cell etc as far as im aware the 3 times rule is only club meetings, if it was a brca sanctioned event (which it must have been to have brca officials turning drivers away!) if it was club officials they are not the brca

[Neil Skull]

I have say the BRCA has to be considered like the Highway code. As i understrand it. im sure i will be corrected.
If you host a non BRCA event and something happens due to something done that is dangerous it could be you the event organiser who is liable. if you set clear instruction to follow BRCA rules and an individual causes an incident whilst not following the rules then they would be liable not you!!!
I think this liability issue is why clubs are adamant BRCA rules are followed it protects them.

[Neil Skull]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Yet the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell, and are you sure there not made by kokham, they definatly used to be.

Mark you said the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell.

I'm asking you if you think that no other brand has batteries that swell?
Can you say with full confidence that orion are the only batteries that swell.
Im saying if you cant say that honestly or that orion are in some way inferior you should attacking Team Orion as a brand!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

Mark you said the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell.

I'm asking you if you think that no other brand has batteries that swell?
Can you say with full confidence that orion are the only batteries that swell.
Im saying if you cant say that honestly or that orion are in some way inferior you should attacking Team Orion as a brand!

ok

the only lipos i have heard of from friends (who owned them) that swell are orions....
disclaimer, there may be other batteries out there that swell too ....

[mattr]

Ahhhhhhhh, standards written by committee, almost guaranteed to be a disaster.

[SlowOne]

Jimmy, it is disappointing that you asked for debate, and then lay into the people who disagree with your view and start that debate! It is almost as if someone has hacked your user-name and turned cool-Jimmy into troll-Jimmy.

Terry.sc has said everything I would say, nothing more to add. We used to have exactly the system you want, Jimmy, and it was a disaster. Every month one had to buy a new motor and cells just to keep up, and that was in Off-Road!

If you want to change the voting rules to allow postal or internet voting, then all you have to do is put up a proposal to change the Constitution and General Rules, get 100 people to the AGM by bus and coach and vote for it - it would more than likely go through. Once you have that you can then propose and vote on a simple rule - that the 10th Off-Road Section abandon the EB rules for eligibility to race in 10th Off-Road Nationals - and you'd probably get that too.

One thing is for certain, getting people to say they agree with you on any forum (even one as good as Oople) is going to change exactly nothing. If you want to get something done you have to do some work, and typing on your keyboard does not qualify as work in this case!

I look forward to the return of cool-Jimmy...

[DCM]

Originally Posted by Neil Skull

I have say the BRCA has to be considered like the Highway code. As i understrand it. im sure i will be corrected.
If you host a non BRCA event and something happens due to something done that is dangerous it could be you the event organiser who is liable. if you set clear instruction to follow BRCA rules and an individual causes an incident whilst not following the rules then they would be liable not you!!!
I think this liability issue is why clubs are adamant BRCA rules are followed it protects them.

No, for a club to be compliant, it only has to comply with the General Rules of the BRCA handbook.

[TARTMAN]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Wrong

a club can be in the BRCA and its members, the only rules that club needs to follow are brca general rules, (then the insurance cover is active)
any motors, any lipo nimh gell cell etc as far as im aware the 3 times rule is only club meetings, if it was a brca sanctioned event (which it must have been to have brca officials turning drivers away!) if it was club officials they are not the brca

sadly, one is..... it was a winter series like any other club race. not a sacntioned brca event like a regional etc.
that aside, the rules are flaunted to suit those at the time making a mockery of the BRCA rules and regs etc.

and regarding getting 100 people there to vote bla bla, yeah right. the problem is those that go and vote are the same people in would guess. I have never been invited or informed of when or where the vote takes place etc. and as mentioned i think above somewhere, nor has others.

Its a sad state that the official side of the hobby/sport is in and needs sorting.
Use the wondeful age of digital/internet etc and make that happen, people do not have the time/funds etc to make a trip to where ever this voting goes on and "make a difference". So it will continue like this.

Out dated "turn up and vote" systems just do not work or have a place in this modern world any more IMHO. Everyone has to accept the world and people move on and they have to keep up or give up.

and still, it goes on.................

[DCM]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

Every month one had to buy a new motor and cells just to keep up, and that was in Off-Road!

This is something that doesn't happen anymore (well apart from stock touring car racing). I am running Batch 1 Tekin Redline motors, cheap nanotech saddle packs and 2 year old Gensace batteries and my car still has more power than I need. The days have gone when you have to chase the magic power, which I think is where Jimmy is coming from, that you no longer have to control things as much due to the fact that we are finally at the point where we can't use the whole power of the systems whereas in the days of NiMH's and brushed, we could easily dump a pack!