When is a 2wd not a 2wd

[Neil Skull]

Interesting Thread,
Especially coming back from the National where many of the Top teams and racers in the country was racing 4wd cars with the front drive removed!!! Still it was 1 and 2 for proper 2wd cars.
It was also funny to see 4wd cars on Sunday running 2wd wheels. I think 8 out of 10 A finalist ran this way!!!
Will we go back to the old days where there was only one class of racing?

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by Briangb

Or simply keep each class completely seperate as they were always intended to be.
What we have now is not far from being an open class. Surely not what was ever intended.

I do agree Brian, truly do but until/if/when the rule changes, it will carry on. Looking like the Schumacher team drivers are using the K1 in 2wd now. Surely this means 2wd cars have not been designed right.

Even though I have an XB4 I needed to get one as my fellow club drivers were leaving me behind track wise....

See you Sunday for a chat!!!

Neil

[Dudders]

Anyway, it's all Glenn Westwood's fault...

[danDanEFC]

Was this a specific Stoffold thing, or something we will see more of at Nationals.

I didnt notice this at the Southport National so why the change??

[Briangb]

Originally Posted by Dudders

I do agree Brian, truly do but until/if/when the rule changes, it will carry on. Looking like the Schumacher team drivers are using the K1 in 2wd now. Surely this means 2wd cars have not been designed right.

Even though I have an XB4 I needed to get one as my fellow club drivers were leaving me behind track wise....

See you Sunday for a chat!!!

Neil

I admire your honesty Neil. While the rules allow it then the choice is there. Glen's fault?. He is faster than me with wheels bolted to the kit box.
See you Sunday.

[trekkerkk]

Personally the poll dosent go far enough as long as there is no diff in the front and no drive belt or shaft going forwards from the spur gear it should be ok .otherwise manufacturers will bring purpose built kits out with 4wd geometry then it becomes more expensive for the racer
Trekkker

[Dudders]

Originally Posted by Briangb

I admire your honesty Neil. While the rules allow it then the choice is there. Glen's fault?. He is faster than me with wheels bolted to the kit box.
See you Sunday.

When other club guys got the XB4 my normal 'position' within was challenged, ie people below me caught and over took my times with easy, and ones I could race with, got a lap quicker. So needed to change as well.

Of course SHRCCC is high grip Astro, all clubs will differ.

Glenn started it all, burn the witch!

[Ralls Racing]

Originally Posted by danDanEFC

Was this a specific Stoffold thing, or something we will see more of at Nationals.

I didnt notice this at the Southport National so why the change??

nationals wise it started at broxtowe and 2-3 were in the A straight away think it was 5-5 at stotfold.

definitely something the brca needs to sort one way or the other as can carry a lot of extra pace over a conventional 2wd. if we are allowed then we will all start to do it on the higher grip tracks or ban it straight away (not sure how but do like the only 1 gearbox casing or even one mount (in dex410 case) for a gearbox allowed) of only cars designed as a 2wd can be used.

i do know this has put the brca in a none nice position as to how to rule this which i know i wouldnt want to have to rule on

[DaveG28]

Sorry all, can someone clarify what exactly this is about.

Is it that people are running front driveshafts and diff, and just no center shaft/belt, so they get a front diff action but no drive?

Or is a 4wd simply running without any front drivetrain actually quicker?

I am not sure i am against it anyway to be honest, nationals aren't full, rc costs a fortune, maybe having one car do both classes is no bad thing!?

Or is the worry that next some clever soul will produce a 2wd only car but with front diff etc?

If the rule needs changing, I'd keep it simple, front wheels must freely move independently of each other and the rear, both forwards and backwards.

[Dudders]

4wd cars without front drive shafts, with or without centre train and/or diff.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

Sorry all, can someone clarify what exactly this is about.

Is it that people are running front driveshafts and diff, and just no center shaft/belt, so they get a front diff action but no drive?

Or is a 4wd simply running without any front drivetrain actually quicker?

I am not sure i am against it anyway to be honest, nationals aren't full, rc costs a fortune, maybe having one car do both classes is no bad thing!?

Or is the worry that next some clever soul will produce a 2wd only car but with front diff etc?

If the rule needs changing, I'd keep it simple, front wheels must freely move independently of each other and the rear, both forwards and backwards.

Seem to be removing the driveshafts at the front and leaving the rest..

Anyone say how there better? More weight? More weight over the front? Geometry?

[s22jgs]

personally i think its a massive loop hole and effectively a legal way of cheating.

That said, if others are doing it and it meant i wasn't competitive then i would do it myself too

[Kelk]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Seem to be removing the driveshafts at the front and leaving the rest..

Anyone say how there better? More weight? More weight over the front? Geometry?

I'd say it's actually more 50/50 for those leaving in/not leaving in the front diff

[jlucas]

Personally cant see the issue here I use an xb4 as a 2wd I use none of the front drive train components so its a 2wd only the rear wheels drive. Would this poll be on here if people were running front wheel drive? Get over it move with the times the brca has no grounds to ban it the rules are not being broken

[Richard Lowe]

Originally Posted by DaveG28

I am not sure i am against it anyway to be honest, nationals aren't full, rc costs a fortune, maybe having one car do both classes is no bad thing!?

The thing is it only really works on very high grip, any moisture on the track and they are useless. So now if you want all the options for the different conditions you need a 4wd, a traditional mid motor 4 gear AND and 2/4wd hybrid. So for most people that's going to cost even more, especially if you have another set of electrics in the hybrid so you can easily throw the mid-4 down if it rains before your heat.

People at the weekend were talking about the front diff acting 'like a gyro' or something similar, personally I can't see how that is the case with all the heavy bits of the diff being so close to it's centre. Maybe if the front diff was geared up to spin at crazy high RPM, IMO it's just the same as having a big chunk of dead weight on the front of the car.

I can't see any reason why it should be banned really, as technically you're not breaking any rules by doing it. It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules/sport to me.

[Dudders]

Mr Lucas straight in with a moody one

[jlucas]

Originally Posted by Dudders

Mr Lucas straight in with a moody one

Well mr dudman I think you'll find all the people complaining are just annoyed that they have been beaten by something that shouldn't really work

[ianjoyner]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Seem to be removing the driveshafts at the front and leaving the rest..

Anyone say how there better? More weight? More weight over the front? Geometry?

Probably less weight shift, mid 4 gear cars get a lot of torque reaction from the motor. Going to shaft drive puts that across the car which seems less noticeable (maybe the prop shaft helps cancel the reaction). I think the K1 runs the motor the opposite way to a 4 gear car, so against the direction of the wheels meaning less overall torque reaction.

I'm not sure trying to ban '4wd designed' cars from 2wd will work, surely if they work then dedicated 2wd versions will be on their way e.g. TM2.

Personally I don't really like the feel of the large torque reaction from mid 4 gear cars anyway and I think if anything the 'less weight shift' mid motor cars feel slightly closer to good old rear motor.

[tony12795]

Agreed.

It actually nearly rained just before the last leg of the A final at Stotfold - that would have been intresting.

Originally Posted by Richard Lowe

The thing is it only really works on very high grip, any moisture on the track and they are useless. So now if you want all the options for the different conditions you need a 4wd, a traditional mid motor 4 gear AND and 2/4wd hybrid. So for most people that's going to cost even more, especially if you have another set of electrics in the hybrid so you can easily throw the mid-4 down if it rains before your heat.

People at the weekend were talking about the front diff acting 'like a gyro' or something similar, personally I can't see how that is the case with all the heavy bits of the diff being so close to it's centre. Maybe if the front diff was geared up to spin at crazy high RPM, IMO it's just the same as having a big chunk of dead weight on the front of the car.

I can't see any reason why it should be banned really, as technically you're not breaking any rules by doing it. It just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the rules/sport to me.

[Steve.T]

Can't see Losi, Schumacher, Yokomo, X ray, Associated and the rest allowing this. Its a whole seperate market for them