Legalise Lipos

[Benh]

Originally Posted by SHY

I've done some googling... it's much, much worse...

Firstly, the rules vary from airline to airline.

Here are the IATA standards (Maxamps conform to IATA standards for their LiPo packs )

Here are the guidelines for the transport of Lithium. It's not the capacity directly, it's the amount of Lithium within the cells and the total of the battery. (Which you can work out from the capacity)

From what I gather this isn't restriction on the size, just a different process for the paperwork.

Tried to get the info from the IATA - but this will cost $250

It's all here: - http://www.moltechpower.co.uk/pdfs/T...ies%20TM01.pdf

This is even better - based on both IATA and ICAO - it's a presentation and a lot easier to understand.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1219/20080...esentation.pdf

[mark christopher]

right to try to bring this back on topic,

will we be able to use lipo at brca sanctioned meeting in 2009 as the rules stand now cus with the last ??? pages im confused

[SHY]

From the BRCA proposal:

It should be noted that EFRA General Rule 2.9 states that for Rule changes that effect more than one Section :- “Unless specified at the (main) AGM all technical Rule changes will be effective 12 months after the rule has been approved.
As the various Electric Classes use different battery voltages, it would require each Section to decide if LiPo cells are suitable.

ME NO LIKE THIS! ... 2010 in worst case now guys...

It could work out well, but chances are much higher now that it won't...

[mark christopher]

shy as this is in brca nationals and regionals, can we keep to the important bit?
the proposal in the brca was to allow up to 7.4 in electric buggy,
if efra say yes but its not active till 2010 for efra the brca can still take em on? as we run to brca rules.
what i want to know is, if efra do not take on lipo, what will happen to the brca re list? i hope the eb make a brca list ,then efra follow our lead?

pw can you confirm this for me please?

oddly according to chris we could have run em all this year

Originally Posted by Chrislong

I am suprised nobody has asked, and nobody in attendance has updated already but here goes:

The rule on Lipo got passed by the members for use at all sanctioned events from 1st April 2008. The rule in the handbook does not need to go into detail like the proposal did and all that was changed is any mention of cells, cell type etc has been removed, and the wording changed to "Car will be driven by a nominal voltage of no more than 7.4v".

The EB has been asked to compile a list of Lipo's, which is going to be done, but firstly they will take care of the spec - which will be done to match whatever Efra decide next week at their AGM. (The BRCA & Efra should have consistency on rules like this).

The Lipo list will be made available on www.brca.org as soon as possible, and will be kept live until the cutoff for Lipo submission. So any of us can view it before making a purchase and see what the current list shows. I highly recommend anybody wanting Lipo to wait for this, and use it.

Initially we think that no current saddle packs will be made legal due to their size. This is unfortunate, but the manufacturer may already be dealing with it - like I said, watch www.brca.org. This only means for regional/national, and anybody who has already got packs will still be able to use them at club level just as they are doing now.

Chris

[SHY]

Are you saying BRCA will (does?) allow LiPos even if EFRA don't? (And what's important to you might differ from others ) We're in Norway playing safe on this matter. It's proposed to follow the ROAR list in case it fails to be opened up for by EFRA (or delayed). It will be decided 8th november on our national AGM.

Mind you some of your fellow countrymen DO travel outside UK to race!

I think PW will work hard to get identical rules for EFRA and BRCA. As you've pointed out before: the EB list is "made in England"

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

dont think the c rating would alter would it? as in 20 to 40
is would still be 20 c but times 10000

I expected a reply to this
The pack was totally hypothetical, not based on any specs. I assumed that putting two complete 2S2P packs together in parallel inside one case (so a 2S4P) Yes you are right, it would still be 20C as the capacity has doubled, but the maximum discharge current would double. It would be simpler if they used numbers that were easier to compare

Originally Posted by mark christopher

(just checked and the 3200 and 4800 saddles are in fact roar aproved)

Out of curiosity I just checked the ROAR lipo rules and the maximum dimensions they use are the same 139mm long proposed to EFAR, but with reference to saddle packs at all.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by SHY

Are you saying BRCA will (does?) allow LiPos even if EFRA don't? (And what's important to you might differ from others)

Yes, the 1/10 OR section has voted to allow lipos whether EFRA approves them or not. We use our own rules and stick to them, regardless to what EFRA does. in 1/12th dropping to 4 cells was a decision made by the BRCA, which was then followed by EFRA and IFMAR in later years. Last year touring cars were running lipos on our EB list in our ProStock class.
If the OR section has voted for lipos they will be allowed at BRCA meetings whatever EFRA says, the only problem is working out what batteries are legal for racing. Whatever specification EFRA approve we will stick to them, if they don't then following ROARs (identical) specification would be the way to go, although it is then debatable whether TP saddles are allowed.
We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.

Originally Posted by mark christopher

oddly according to chris we could have run em all this year

In theory you can run whatever type or cell you like, in previous years rules just stated a maximum of 6 cells, not what type of cells they actually were or how much voltage they had. Unfortunately this was then limited by the next rule which stated that the batteries must be the EB homologation list, which limited you to nicad and nimh cells.

[SHY]

Terry, that's very clarifying - thx!

Originally Posted by terry.sc

We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.

Well, I think most countries choose to follow EFRA rules. And then just make a few exceptions if necessary.

Reasons to do this:
-one set of rules for national and international events (for simplicity and competitiveness)
-lack of national resources (UK has a big RC crowd with resources like PW and others)

Personally I prefer to follow EFRA rules. And if you disagree with something, then change the national rules. But in addition propose the rule change also to EFRA. What makes sense makes sense in most countries!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

Yes, the 1/10 OR section has voted to allow lipos whether EFRA approves them or not. We use our own rules and stick to them, regardless to what EFRA does. in 1/12th dropping to 4 cells was a decision made by the BRCA, which was then followed by EFRA and IFMAR in later years. Last year touring cars were running lipos on our EB list in our ProStock class.
If the OR section has voted for lipos they will be allowed at BRCA meetings whatever EFRA says, the only problem is working out what batteries are legal for racing. Whatever specification EFRA approve we will stick to them, if they don't then following ROARs (identical) specification would be the way to go, although it is then debatable whether TP saddles are allowed.
We do find it strange at times that so many European countries just follow EFRA rules rather than create their own which might be more suitable.
In theory you can run whatever type or cell you like, in previous years rules just stated a maximum of 6 cells, not what type of cells they actually were or how much voltage they had. Unfortunately this was then limited by the next rule which stated that the batteries must be the EB homologation list, which limited you to nicad and nimh cells.

terry i got the roar aproved info from trakpowers site???? never looked at roar rules

the reference im talking about this years is chris has done a typo and put they will be allowed in brca sanctioned meetings from april 2008, where as he meant 2009

[Northy]

Isn't this thread great?

G

[mark christopher]

roar lipo list is here http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/...6f1bb3017f4a5c

they have allowed saddle till dimensions can be established
"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established "

[SHY]

I've just emailed PW and Frank Mostrey asking for an explanation as to why the norwegian proposal is moved/rewritten from OR to the general proposal section.

Hopefully we can get this sorted before the AGM. Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

AND - IMHO you can't just change a proposal, it should be dealt with as is. At least there should be some communication or discussing if it's to be amended. I'll be extremely disappointed if LiPo doesent' get EFRA legal for 1:10 OR starting 1. april 2009...

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by SHY

Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

No,
As ideally all classes should run to the same motors/cells. This makes it so when touring car racers/12th racer etc realise that 1/10th off-road is better, they just have to buy chassis.

It also means manufacturers have a bigger single market of racers to sell to, rather than differing rules per class which they may then choose to not cater for as that perticular market may be too small on its own.

The proposal is right to be in general, its then down to the sections to adopt it.

[SHY]

In an ideal world yes...

Back in the day all classes ran with 6 cells. But with 6 volts and 4,8 volts for touring and 1:12 (with good reasons).

And a single LiPo cell being 3,7 volt... you get into lots of issues... which are not resolved for these classes.

Tourers would of course jump straight onto 7,4 volt LiPos... but then they'd face the same problems as before (read the AGM notes from previous years, LRP had a lot to say about this, and 5 cells has worked according to the intentions).

1:12 is totally unclear as to LiPo - I've not heard any serious developments or testing going on...

So... if being forced to do a "general voting" at the EFRA AGM for all electric classes I strongly feel the answer will be a NO!

Btw 1:12 TR is very fun to drive! Totally different from OR, but it still has it's charm!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

I've just emailed PW and Frank Mostrey asking for an explanation as to why the norwegian proposal is moved/rewritten from OR to the general proposal section.

Hopefully we can get this sorted before the AGM. Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

(Still talking about EFRA rules)

AND - IMHO you can't just change a proposal, it should be dealt with as is. At least there should be some communication or discussing if it's to be amended. I'll be extremely disappointed if LiPo doesent' get EFRA legal for 1:10 OR starting 1. april 2009...

but its not and it can be amended by those at the meeting. they do discuss when they amend it.

agree with chris needs to be uniform, other sections do not need to adopt it such as 5 cell mod or 12th, they just use the bits they need to.
BRCA have lipo, all im concerned about!!

[Chrislong]

SHY, your like a dog with a bone. I can't knock your enthusiasm. Personally I feel our interests are being taken care of and we need to put some trust into those people who represent us all, so id like to let the matter rest and let those people get on with what they're best at.

[SHY]

LOL! Wooff!!!

We're all good friends, and discussions like these are great!

We must try and get over to your isolated island one day and race on some grass track... and have some beers

I'm just very concerned about diplomatic decisions. If me and my opinions are a minority I have no problems accepting that. But those who want to make a change can and should do so. Most people just complain and never contribute to actually doing something about it. But once you do take action it must be treated with 100% integrity. I've experienced a couple of times rules (national ones) being changed mid-season even if it was 100% unanimously passed at the last AGM... and that I can promise you takes away the enthusiasm!

Even though the guys at EFRA do a marvellous job they are not perfect, and make mistakes just like all of us. And there's nothing wrong with us keeping an eye on them

Chris - don't forget that many of us counted on "somebody" to propose and get LiPos passed already last year... You guys get LiPo in UK anyways now, so I understand you are happy with that. (Mark, first now I see that this tread is under "BRCA Nationals & Regionals" Sorry bout'that!) But if you go to a GP or EC you might be forced to convert your cars back to NiMH - fancy that?

For us we luckily have a proposal for LiPo with or without EFRA rules for OR. For the touring class there is a proposal to accept it only if EFRA decides so.

I've at least done all I can do now... so let's just hope for the best!

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by SHY

Don't you all agree it's better to vote over this class by class?

If each class vote for it separately there's nothing to stop each class coming up with their own specifications for the packs. For example as all touring chassis use stick packs they don't need any rules regarding saddle packs.

Say for example the touring car class decides a bigger pack is needed for more capacity and they ratify bigger dimensions that no longer fit inside a B4 chassis. The manufacturers start making loads of these bigger packs for the larger touring car market, leaving buggies with a smaller range of batteries to fit their own different rules. Anyone who races both classes would also have to buy separate batteries for each class they race in.

By being in the general rules it makes sure every class can use the same equipment. You buy a touring car, get bored with it, but you can still use the same motor, ESC and batteries in your new buggy because the electrics rules are the same over all the classes.

All it takes to change the proposal is someone at the EFRA AGM to point out the problem and make sure saddle pack dimensions are added. Once the rules are there the EC might have to wait a year before lipos are allowed, but once there is a specification in the rules it's down to the national bodies to decide to use them.

[SHY]

Has anyone heard the results from the AGM this weekend?