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  #2641  
Old 04-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Default B4 slipper clutch on optima mid

I just made a video yesterday of my slipper clutch working. have a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdUQhxZO0ig

The OT-66 tyres in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYu7hYSoF0c

My pals Lazer ZX-R jumping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQPoxYsrjk8
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  #2642  
Old 04-03-2012
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Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
welshy i just want the normal parts not the blue ones. those are too expensive. i figured since many of you already use the blue parts, the originals will be sitting idle doing nothing, might as well sell them to me.
Ok now i understand. I broke my standard ones so only have blue. I would advise buying the large kimbrough servo saver as thats what i use to stop breakages. There has got to be someone here who has one.

Also saw you slipper video plus the drawing of the layshaft. I think you have sorted this design and we do need the slot for the pin to hold in an alloy pulley for the rear belt in the zx/zxr. This means we dont need the layshaft hub and kindof makes life easier plus lightens the load on the layshaft. If you can do you think you could redesign for the zx, with of couse the threaded end for the one way as well?
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  #2643  
Old 04-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Originally Posted by Welshy40 View Post
Ok now i understand. I broke my standard ones so only have blue. I would advise buying the large kimbrough servo saver as thats what i use to stop breakages. There has got to be someone here who has one.

Also saw you slipper video plus the drawing of the layshaft. I think you have sorted this design and we do need the slot for the pin to hold in an alloy pulley for the rear belt in the zx/zxr. This means we dont need the layshaft hub and kindof makes life easier plus lightens the load on the layshaft. If you can do you think you could redesign for the zx, with of couse the threaded end for the one way as well?
Anyone else got the used OTW-10 parts i need?
Welshy i can work on the shaft design, but its gonna take me time. i took about 2 months to sort out the shaft for my optima mid, spent a few hours after work at my home to draw the original shaft, then mate it to the b4 outer part, then create a drawing. the last bit is to wait for the machinist to make the prototype for me. It takes about 2 - 3 weeks for 1 prototype. learning from the 1st mistake (i only got the shaft working on my 2nd prototype) i made with my Optima Mid Shaft prototype, i should be able to get it right the first time around for the ZX shaft. But you guys gotta give me some time. i'd be honoured if i could find a good solution that everyone can use.
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  #2644  
Old 04-03-2012
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Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
Anyone else got the used OTW-10 parts i need?
Welshy i can work on the shaft design, but its gonna take me time. i took about 2 months to sort out the shaft for my optima mid, spent a few hours after work at my home to draw the original shaft, then mate it to the b4 outer part, then create a drawing. the last bit is to wait for the machinist to make the prototype for me. It takes about 2 - 3 weeks for 1 prototype. learning from the 1st mistake (i only got the shaft working on my 2nd prototype) i made with my Optima Mid Shaft prototype, i should be able to get it right the first time around for the ZX shaft. But you guys gotta give me some time. i'd be honoured if i could find a good solution that everyone can use.
Waiting is not a problem. Should be a good design. The plan is to have a fixed rear layshaft pulley, using a tamiya alloy pulley or something similar.
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  #2645  
Old 04-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Originally Posted by Welshy40 View Post
Waiting is not a problem. Should be a good design. The plan is to have a fixed rear layshaft pulley, using a tamiya alloy pulley or something similar.
yes i see the problem now. The only way to hold the original Rear pulley in is with the rear splitter hub, so with the new shaft using the b4 slipper plates, a different pulley must be used. do you have a suitable pulley in mind? also what is the diameter of the shaft itself? is it 4mm? if it is then touring car pulleys will fit. But anyway i still need to make some kind hub to fit on the shaft and the bearing 10mm (or 8mm?) ID to take up the abscence of the rear hub.. if i remeber it right the layshaft bearings are 8x14mm?
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  #2646  
Old 05-03-2012
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Default spur gear

i forgot to ask one important thing. the B4 spur gears as far as i know arent anywhere near the size of the lazers 100tooth spur. Do you have a RW spur for the lazer that can fit the B4 slipper pads?
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  #2647  
Old 05-03-2012
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Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
i forgot to ask one important thing. the B4 spur gears as far as i know arent anywhere near the size of the lazers 100tooth spur. Do you have a RW spur for the lazer that can fit the B4 slipper pads?
I redesigned the spur gear a while ago and is basically identical to the original but has an associated hex milled out on either side. RW racing sell them.
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  #2648  
Old 05-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Originally Posted by Welshy40 View Post
I redesigned the spur gear a while ago and is basically identical to the original but has an associated hex milled out on either side. RW racing sell them.
i sent you an email about a few things to sort out.
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  #2649  
Old 05-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Default potential problems

i am starting on the design work now and already i forsee some big problems. for The Lazer its not as simple as the optima mid. The huge problem i see now are the pulleys. in order to make the left side front one way work, we will need to use the inner thrust bearings, and still maintain the correct pulley spacing to ensure that it lines up with the diff pulleys. The problem is the rear side of the thrust bearing is actually inside the rear pulley. You cant just slap a tamiya or drift TC hub type pulley next to one way, you actually have to machine a step into the new pulley so that the thrust bearing can sit inside it to maintain the correct pulley spacing.

here are a few possible work arounds.
1. forget about the top shaft one way. A new long pulley must be machined with a divider in the middle. This new one piece pulley will have a 8mm step extending outwards both on the left and the right ends to support the inner 8mm of the 8x14 bearings, with one end having a grub screw to tighten to the layshaft. the right side of the pulley will touch with the inner side of the B4 slipper plate to support it.
Pros : easy to design
Cons : In addition to making a new shaft, and new pulley must also be machined, making it costly.

2. Keep the left side with the original one way and pulley. On the right side, machine a new pulley with a 8mm step on the right side extending outwards to touch the inner side of the B4 slipper plate. Of course this pulley has a grub screw also to lock it in position. The left side of the pulley is machined a step to allow the thrust bearings to sit inside it like the originals.
Pros : can keep the one way.cheaper than option 1.
Cons : still have to make a new pulley.

Option 3.
Keep the left side with original one way and pulley and thrust bearings, also re use the original rear pulley. But machine a layshaft with a 8mm step and with the spline slots, much like the peak performance layshaft. Basically this one will be a peak performance layshaft with a longer end that will match up with the B4 slipper parts.
Pros : only the shaft needs to be made, should be the cheapest and most practical option.
Cons, getting the spline slot spacing right could be tricky, or machining the spline might be expensive.

i beleive option 3 will the best.
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  #2650  
Old 05-03-2012
sz3 sz3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
i am starting on the design work now and already i forsee some big problems. for The Lazer its not as simple as the optima mid. The huge problem i see now are the pulleys. in order to make the left side front one way work, we will need to use the inner thrust bearings, and still maintain the correct pulley spacing to ensure that it lines up with the diff pulleys. The problem is the rear side of the thrust bearing is actually inside the rear pulley. You cant just slap a tamiya or drift TC hub type pulley next to one way, you actually have to machine a step into the new pulley so that the thrust bearing can sit inside it to maintain the correct pulley spacing.

here are a few possible work arounds.
1. forget about the top shaft one way. A new long pulley must be machined with a divider in the middle. This new one piece pulley will have a 8mm step extending outwards both on the left and the right ends to support the inner 8mm of the 8x14 bearings, with one end having a grub screw to tighten to the layshaft. the right side of the pulley will touch with the inner side of the B4 slipper plate to support it.
Pros : easy to design
Cons : In addition to making a new shaft, and new pulley must also be machined, making it costly.

2. Keep the left side with the original one way and pulley. On the right side, machine a new pulley with a 8mm step on the right side extending outwards to touch the inner side of the B4 slipper plate. Of course this pulley has a grub screw also to lock it in position. The left side of the pulley is machined a step to allow the thrust bearings to sit inside it like the originals.
Pros : can keep the one way.cheaper than option 1.
Cons : still have to make a new pulley.

Option 3.
Keep the left side with original one way and pulley and thrust bearings, also re use the original rear pulley. But machine a layshaft with a 8mm step and with the spline slots, much like the peak performance layshaft. Basically this one will be a peak performance layshaft with a longer end that will match up with the B4 slipper parts.
Pros : only the shaft needs to be made, should be the cheapest and most practical option.
Cons, getting the spline slot spacing right could be tricky, or machining the spline might be expensive.

i beleive option 3 will the best.
Isn't your left hand (front) pulley assembled in the wrong way? According to the manual both sides of the thrust bearings are inside the pulleys, aren't they?
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  #2651  
Old 05-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
i am starting on the design work now and already i forsee some big problems. for The Lazer its not as simple as the optima mid. The huge problem i see now are the pulleys. in order to make the left side front one way work, we will need to use the inner thrust bearings, and still maintain the correct pulley spacing to ensure that it lines up with the diff pulleys. The problem is the rear side of the thrust bearing is actually inside the rear pulley. You cant just slap a tamiya or drift TC hub type pulley next to one way, you actually have to machine a step into the new pulley so that the thrust bearing can sit inside it to maintain the correct pulley spacing.

here are a few possible work arounds.
1. forget about the top shaft one way. A new long pulley must be machined with a divider in the middle. This new one piece pulley will have a 8mm step extending outwards both on the left and the right ends to support the inner 8mm of the 8x14 bearings, with one end having a grub screw to tighten to the layshaft. the right side of the pulley will touch with the inner side of the B4 slipper plate to support it.
Pros : easy to design
Cons : In addition to making a new shaft, and new pulley must also be machined, making it costly.

2. Keep the left side with the original one way and pulley. On the right side, machine a new pulley with a 8mm step on the right side extending outwards to touch the inner side of the B4 slipper plate. Of course this pulley has a grub screw also to lock it in position. The left side of the pulley is machined a step to allow the thrust bearings to sit inside it like the originals.
Pros : can keep the one way.cheaper than option 1.
Cons : still have to make a new pulley.

Option 3.
Keep the left side with original one way and pulley and thrust bearings, also re use the original rear pulley. But machine a layshaft with a 8mm step and with the spline slots, much like the peak performance layshaft. Basically this one will be a peak performance layshaft with a longer end that will match up with the B4 slipper parts.
Pros : only the shaft needs to be made, should be the cheapest and most practical option.
Cons, getting the spline slot spacing right could be tricky, or machining the spline might be expensive.

i beleive option 3 will the best.
Im confused. How can option 3 be easier and cheaper as there is more work. Still you do actually make a good point so we will only need to fit the spur gear, pads, and the front plate from a B4 as well as the thrust race and spring.

I still think a lot of people like me prefer the one way and with this option if someone wants a permanent 4wd all they do is tighten it up. Still if you put a slot in the layshaft for a pin to go through so you can bolt the pulley to it then once fitted you don't need to fit the e clip on the layshaft and due to this you can use a bearing instead of the thrust race and means that the bearing will be thinner and should be enough to make a perfect fit. Other option I like was having a flat spot on the layshaft and using an allen key to bolt the pulley to, but as you say is costly to make.
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  #2652  
Old 05-03-2012
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Originally Posted by sz3 View Post
Isn't your left hand (front) pulley assembled in the wrong way? According to the manual both sides of the thrust bearings are inside the pulleys, aren't they?
Yes your right, one of the pulleys (left one with the one way attached is the wrong way around)
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  #2653  
Old 05-03-2012
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Originally Posted by Welshy40 View Post
Waiting is not a problem. Should be a good design. The plan is to have a fixed rear layshaft pulley, using a tamiya alloy pulley or something similar.
i think you have to get the 14 teeth pulleys from superijcon
since tamiay smallest is 15

mvh Isobarik
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  #2654  
Old 05-03-2012
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I forgot to mention my cad drawing been done and hope to by next week have my proto.
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  #2655  
Old 06-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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Originally Posted by Welshy40 View Post
Im confused. How can option 3 be easier and cheaper as there is more work. Still you do actually make a good point so we will only need to fit the spur gear, pads, and the front plate from a B4 as well as the thrust race and spring.

I still think a lot of people like me prefer the one way and with this option if someone wants a permanent 4wd all they do is tighten it up. Still if you put a slot in the layshaft for a pin to go through so you can bolt the pulley to it then once fitted you don't need to fit the e clip on the layshaft and due to this you can use a bearing instead of the thrust race and means that the bearing will be thinner and should be enough to make a perfect fit. Other option I like was having a flat spot on the layshaft and using an allen key to bolt the pulley to, but as you say is costly to make.
i beleive option 3 will be cheaper becuase making a new pulley would be more expensive, as far as i know machining a pulley isnt cheap. about putting in a normal bearing into the one way side pulley, i beleive that may not be an option. Kyosho designed it with a thrust bearing becuase you may actually tighthen the outer nut to the max, to stop the one way action(or course also to allow the torque split to work). If you were to do that with a normal bearing on the inside, it may possibly be damaged becuase radial bearings dont take too much axial loads well. Still it could work because once you tighthen it the bearing shouldnt rotate on its own.i will have to try this out if its possible. The problem is finding a bearing that would fit, cause the only available one should be 4x8 and i think it wont go in the pulley side step. But however it could prove useless becuase the normal 4x8 bearing thickness will probably extend to the other pulley too. you guys said i fitted the front pulley wrong? ok i will try to fit them the other way tonight and see how it looks like. Sorry, i havent touched my lazer in a long long time ! well whatever it is, lets brainstorm and find the best solution.
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  #2656  
Old 06-03-2012
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I like the third option of a new longer layshaft.

but I will also make a larger diff ring. one that is OD 30mm and ID 14mm to utiliize all the unused b4 slipper pad.
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  #2657  
Old 06-03-2012
alcyon alcyon is offline
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i think i get what Welshy means. there is a type of pulley which is hubless and uses a 1mm slot, to place a pin inside to lock it. Unfortunately the only car i found using that system is the kawada sv-10 from 1998-2002. the pulley is very compact and can work for the lazer, now all is left is to find a similar pulley.i will post a pic of the pulley tonight.
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  #2658  
Old 06-03-2012
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oosh123 oosh123 is offline
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I just thought of a easy retro fit to accomplish what we needed.

since the original design can fit everything except the thrust spring. We could add an extension shaft to the spur gear side using the M3 thread that's already on it. On this extension shaft, the length will be able to fit the thrust spring with a M3 thread at the end.

I think this is the cheapest way of having a extended layshaft.
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  #2659  
Old 06-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcyon View Post
i beleive option 3 will be cheaper becuase making a new pulley would be more expensive, as far as i know machining a pulley isnt cheap. about putting in a normal bearing into the one way side pulley, i beleive that may not be an option. Kyosho designed it with a thrust bearing becuase you may actually tighthen the outer nut to the max, to stop the one way action(or course also to allow the torque split to work). If you were to do that with a normal bearing on the inside, it may possibly be damaged becuase radial bearings dont take too much axial loads well. Still it could work because once you tighthen it the bearing shouldnt rotate on its own.i will have to try this out if its possible. The problem is finding a bearing that would fit, cause the only available one should be 4x8 and i think it wont go in the pulley side step. But however it could prove useless becuase the normal 4x8 bearing thickness will probably extend to the other pulley too. you guys said i fitted the front pulley wrong? ok i will try to fit them the other way tonight and see how it looks like. Sorry, i havent touched my lazer in a long long time ! well whatever it is, lets brainstorm and find the best solution.
I think i understand you. The oneway hub, opposite to the oneway for the front belt doesnt need a bearing at all. The only oneway required is for the front belt.

Also there are loads of different size bearings that fit the layshaft, if memory serves me correctly i opted for a bearing from my sponsers motor and fitted perfectly. It was from a brushed motor. This made the car a bit more free so try it and see.
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  #2660  
Old 06-03-2012
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14 teeth aluminum pulleys are easy to find and should be possible to order from youre LHS i know since thats what i did anyway.

mvh Isobarik
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