TLR 22 Build and Set-ups

[Frecklychimp]

The physics of full size cars do not relate entirely to model versions...

a 1/10th buggy scaled up by 10 would have 22" wheels, 12cm bore shocks that were over a metre long, weigh around 16kg and be capable of 500 mph+

i understand entirely where you are coming from, have done a motorsport engineering degree so can relate to all principals but facts are that adding weight in certain conditions improves consistancy.... when i came back to the hobby it was a surprise to see brass being used when years ago we were making everything lighter for speed.

back in XX XXX days we were also very limited with run time and punch from batteries, modern technology means that power and runtime are no longer any issue, so running a heavier car is not a is advantage i it suits driving style.

I've found that running weight and tapered pistons makes the car a lot more consistant and smoother on bumpy tracks... if the car/wheel is in the air from little bumps then there is no power going to ground and technically you are not 100% in control of vehicle.

we use spike tyres, push the spikes into the ground and you have more grip, trying to use suspension to do this will also push car up into air.

circuit car principals do not apply to off-road vehicles either... Colin Chapman never designed a championship winning rally car?!

[sosidge]

Originally Posted by Frecklychimp

a 1/10th buggy scaled up by 10 would have 22" wheels, 12cm bore shocks that were over a metre long, weigh around 16kg and be capable of 500 mph+

You're right with the wheels and the shocks. The weight would be 1600kg as that is related to the volume of the car. And speed is speed, regardless of the size of the vehicle - the world is still the same size.

[Robby]

Originally Posted by chapuza

I used to race Losi XX and XXX 2WD buggies many years ago, back then we always tried to make our buggies as light as possible. Just like any real race car, really.

Nowadays, as in this thread, I am reading a lot about the benefits of adding weight to many different parts of the 22 (or other buggies if you like).

I do not get this. It is something I would like to challenge, mainly from a physics point of view, and I am happy to discuss and hear your opinion.

IMHO, the only benefit of adding weight to a race car is to slightly improve a poor setup, but never to the point where it actually becomes as good as a good setup that is not using any weight.

An example: Adding weight helps to keep the car planted on bumpy surfaces. Ok, but why not soften the suspension so a lighter car absorbs them equally well or even better without weights AND accelerates/brakes faster?

Another one: The car has more rear traction and accelerates better if I add weight at the back. Ok, but why not go with a milder motor/ESC setup instead and achieve a more balanced performance in the turns (e.g. less understeer with no weight at the back)?

You see what I am trying to say.

Can anyone explain from a physics point of view the benefits of adding (unnecessary) weight?

As I said, in my opinion a better setup (shocks, roll center, etc.) should always work better than adding dumb blocks of brass.

Happy to get some fresh ideas on this!

Originally Posted by Frecklychimp

The physics of full size cars do not relate entirely to model versions...

a 1/10th buggy scaled up by 10 would have 22" wheels, 12cm bore shocks that were over a metre long, weigh around 16kg and be capable of 500 mph+

Originally Posted by /tobys

1) Until recently, most buggies were designed in the pre-Lipo days. Nimh's were heavier so the easiest way for people to get up to speed with Lipo was to add weight so the overall weight was about the same. When doing this, you could also alter the weight bias. This is similar in principle to how people used to move batteries backward or forwards on the chassis.

I can remember WAY back in the days of some of us first trying to build mid-motor cars, and they generally didn't work because SO much weight was forward in the chassis (because of the heavy NiCAD battery pack) we had no real choice in adding weight, or even being able to move it at all to be able to fine tune weight distribution. And it was only vaguely becoming possible as the wheelbase of cars lengthened.

Now with LiPO batts, them weighing roughly 30% of the NiMH packs they replaced, we have weight we can play around with and move. In the past we really didn't have the option of losing weight, because the battery was the heaviest item in the car, but now that not being the case we're still dealing with cars (in basic principal/design) and wheels and tires and suspension bits that were designed around the same design parameters used 20 years ago.

So, from purely a physics point of view, we're not randomly adding weight - or plunking a brick in the middle of the car, we're (if we're doing it right) incrementally adding bits of weight here and there to fine tune the handling characteristics of the car. But, if you want to look at the barebones physics in the 1:1 world - look at it like a vehicle traveling down an icy patch of road, what's going to get better traction instead of sliding wildly, a light car or a heavy car?

[chapuza]

Technically, 380 size motors and slimmer and lighter chassis would probably be the way to go instead of adding ever more power and weight to compensate for this additional power.

But I can see Mr. R.C. Hillbilly arriving at the local track and laughing his head off looking at those "tiny motors"; so 380 is probably not going to happen... (back to Grasshopper days it would be!).

[vrooom]

My losi 22 is bit slow into entry / exit. it doesnt really understeer unless i pushed it too hard.

I am using savox 1251 with 150% travel on my DX2s

my setup is

Front Suspension
Toe: 0'
Ride Height: wishbones level
Camber: 1'
Castor:10'
Kick Angle: 25'
Oil: kit
Piston: 4 hole #55 pistons
Spring: red kit
Spindle Type: kit
Shock Limiters: 0mm
Shock Location: 2-middle
Bump Steer: 0mm
Camber Link: 0mm washers on tower, 0mm washers on hub
2mm spacer in front of castor.

Rear Suspension
Chassis Configuration: mid
Toe: 4'
Anti Squat: 1'
Roll Center: LRC
Ride Height: Driveshafts Level
Camber: -1'
Wheel Base: Medium
Oil: kit
Piston: #55
Spring: Yellow

Camber Link: 1-B (0mm under tower ball stud and 1mm under hub ballstud)
Shock Locations: 2-inside


50gram tlr rear weight.

Front tyres: staggers rib.
Rear Tyres: yellow mini pin - schumacher foam

I just purchased 0 degrees castor block, hopefully that helps.

It is not sharp like i seen like those asnmann X2C and others.

[RDG 40]

Anyone know how to get hold of bllomfields latest set ups ?? Seems set ups have stopped cumin through or have they jus not changed much??

[Delves]

Originally Posted by RDG 40

Anyone know how to get hold of bllomfields latest set ups ?? Seems set ups have stopped cumin through or have they jus not changed much??

Are you after anything specific set up wise (indoors/outdoors)? I will see if I can get some set ups out of him this week

[Ross]

Originally Posted by Delves

Are you after anything specific set up wise (indoors/outdoors)? I will see if I can get some set ups out of him this week

A set up for Silverstone will be good

thanks

[RDG 40]

Nothing in particular tbh jus sometimes when top drivers change small things that small thing myt benefit us mortals lol

Cing how set up needs to change for varing conditions is interesting reading

Myt jus b me being anal as im determined not to change my 22 i love it, dont like to follow trends

Mainly astro during summer one wet one dry, then indoor one carpet one slippy are 4 surfaces i race on

[Razer]

I wrote a TLR 22 Parts Guide today! Please give me feedback if you read it, and corrections!

http://martinsorlie.blogspot.no/2012...seful-and.html

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Nicely thought out Martin,

I guess your customers should think themselves very lucky

As with writing anything - you lay yourself open for people to critique and argue for what they believe in but that's not the point - each of us will have personal preferences and recommendations - but what you've done is to put it out there with good explanations from your point of view - good work.

[jaydits]

great work Martin
now i can give the people a link if they want to know what to buy for the 22
thanks
joey

[Razer]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

Nicely thought out Martin,

I guess your customers should think themselves very lucky

As with writing anything - you lay yourself open for people to critique and argue for what they believe in but that's not the point - each of us will have personal preferences and recommendations - but what you've done is to put it out there with good explanations from your point of view - good work.

Thank you!

I really hope this guide can help racers, but I wrote it just as much as a help for myself. Writing about it really helped me remember the up and downs of each part and mod:-) And I really hope people will comment, and of course point out and criticize if I wrote something they truly disagree with.

By writing this blogpost I did in a way go out on a limb, since selling aftermarket stuff and options is part of what pays my salary, but I really do want my customers to be loyal cause of my honesty, not my ability as a salesman.

Another side of this is that I'm a racer, improving my results every raceweekend, and with the will to offer an arm and a leg to be a team driver, so writing bad stuff about the brand I race and sell is usually not a good thing. But again, I'd rather sell and represent TLR because people see me as an honest, helpful racer, and I really do try to be just that! :-)

[Robby]

Originally Posted by Razer

I wrote a TLR 22 Parts Guide today! Please give me feedback if you read it, and corrections!

http://martinsorlie.blogspot.no/2012...seful-and.html

My thoughts exactly ............. especially the "Not So Useful Options."

Oftentimes it seems people are out to buy every single doo-dad and whatnot, replacing parts at will, just because they're out there, and then complain about the cost of all those parts ..... when in reality (kind of like people asking for set-ups constantly) I tend to tell people "If you're not making a change for good reason, then I don't see the point in doing it."

[Gnarly Old Dog]

A kind of agree with you Robby - but with a slight caveat...

A Good Reason for one person may not be a good reason for someone else. As they say - one man's liquor is another man's poison.

If it makes someone happy to fit options to their car because they enjoy doing it, does it make it wrong?

Options can be fitted to alter geometry, increase strength or improve ease of maintenance. They can also be fitted for the reason that they look good.

All are valid reasons.

I do agree with you though that buying everything and then becoming upset that you've spent your money is perhaps ill-thought out to begin with but if someone enjoys buying options for their car simply because they can - or because they are there, then their enjoyment alone is a good enough reason for them to be right in their decision making IMO.

[Razer]

*Updated earlier post^^*

I recently built a 22 with every option part available to me. It did cost me more than twice of the kits original price.

Most importantly, it was shiny! And I did get 13th place at the Ooplerace and best TLR, so the options weren't useless. But I do doubt I needed all of them. Apart from that they were shiny. I do like shiny. And it blinds the competition:-P

Now I run my car with the options in my guide, lighter, more flexible and cheaper to repair;-)

[Robby]

Originally Posted by Gnarly Old Dog

A Good Reason for one person may not be a good reason for someone else. As they say - one man's liquor is another man's poison.
If it makes someone happy to fit options to their car because they enjoy doing it, does it make it wrong?

It does if they come back later and complain about the cost of said parts, or wonder why it didn't turn them suddenly into world championship material on the track.

[Delves]

Hi all

Here is Darren's finishing set up from the EOS at the weekend. Dustin and Darren worked together at the EOS on this set up, so it is different to his last set up and admits he needs to try it on Schumacher pins to evaluate it in comparison to where he finished at the end of the last indoor season.

HTH

Chris

[RDG 40]

Thats awesome cheers defo gona get some 4mm's on order

[Razer]

uh oh, I've been out blogging again... It's about the two-hole pistons everyone is blogging about these days, and my way of making them

http://martinsorlie.blogspot.no/2012...e-pistons.html