X-Factory slipper shaft brass flywheel

[Richard Lowe]

Originally Posted by elvo

No it won't. It's spinning the other way

Duh, ignore my spazzy comment above

What I was thinking is it will have the opposite effect on the B4 vs the X6 4-gear as the layshaft rotates the other way. No idea why I didn't just write that

X6 = less weight transfered to each end as you get on the throttle or brake.
B4 = more weight transfered, also more wheelies

[janus_77]

The main thing is that at slower speeds the car will feel more balanced in the rear. But it you gun the throttle there will be a gyro effect (transfers a weight momentum to the front) to keep the nose more level while accelerating.

So basically the car will be more stable entering the corner, you will have better steering control out of the corner and the car will be less affected by small ruts on the fast parts since the flywheel is pushing the nose down just the little extra.

We tested it on rear motors also, and it has more effect since the flywheel is behind the rear axle. Sometimes even so extreme that it will try to lift the back at high speeds with the 40 grams units we stated with. So you’d probably want it at about 12 grams for rear motor use (estimate)

[Body Paint]

Surely it will have a similar effect on handling to running a 3 gear tranny?

[janus_77]

Originally Posted by Body Paint

Surely it will have a similar effect on handling to running a 3 gear tranny?

Yes the effect is basically similar, but a 3 gear means the armature is rotating the other way. Meaning much higher RPM's counter rotating, meaning much more violent changes in feel/handling of the car as you accelerate / decelerate. The difference between off / on power handling is very big.

Because you already have the reduction of the pinion and spur the flywheel has the same feel but a lot more subtitle and easier to manage.

That being said, when I 1st started testing these units we were at a very small indoor carpet track. Very twisty, medium grip. There we found about 40 grams were ideal, but a 3 gear was also a viable option.
But on the larger outdoor flowing tracks the 3 gear is just to erratic to take advantage of, and this is where the flywheel is just better balanced.

[elvo]

Originally Posted by janus_77

Yes the effect is basically similar, but a 3 gear means the armature is rotating the other way. Meaning much higher RPM's counter rotating, meaning much more violent changes in feel/handling of the car as you accelerate / decelerate. The difference between off / on power handling is very big.

Because you already have the reduction of the pinion and spur the flywheel has the same feel but a lot more subtitle and easier to manage.

That being said, when I 1st started testing these units we were at a very small indoor carpet track. Very twisty, medium grip. There we found about 40 grams were ideal, but a 3 gear was also a viable option.
But on the larger outdoor flowing tracks the 3 gear is just to erratic to take advantage of, and this is where the flywheel is just better balanced.

Everybody pay attention. Janus knows what he's talking about.
(The fact that he tends to run twice the power I do does help here; I didn't notice half of these things.)

[Paul_Sinclair]

Here's the way I see it, from a very basic theoretical view: the spinning mass in a 2wd car causes weight transfer; we see this most clearly when the car is in the air. There's mass spinning in the same direction as the tires, and mass spinning opposite. Essentially, you can add up the amount of weight spinning in each direction, subtract the stuff going 'backwards' from the stuff going 'forwards' and come up with a net weight transfer. (The rpm each thing spins at is very important, as is the radius of it, but I'm keeping it simple here.)

With the four gear transmission, the motor is spinning with the tires and the slipper/top shaft assembly going 'backwards'. BK and I, along with Arjan, Elvo, and a few others, decided that on some tracks there was too much weight transfer going on, that the car was pitching too violently on some surfaces. We didn't want to go all the way back to a 3-gear transmission, but we wanted to tone down the 4-gear's effect. So, we added some weight spinning the 'wrong' direction and found it felt really good lots of places.

Essentially, if you picture the 3 gear transmission on the left, an the 4 gear on the right, the brass flywheel brings the 4 gear back to left some, to somewhere right of center. If you ran the 3 gear, and added the flywheel, it would feel more like a 4-gear, but not near as much.

As to what the flywheel would do to a rear-motor car, I'm not really sure. I agree with Richard's second post, that it should increase weight transfer. It's also 15 grams of weight sitting behind the rear axle, which will add to the static weight balance of the car.

Unfortunately, the flywheels do not work well with the new V2 slipper parts. They do bolt up perfectly to the X Factory slipper hubs and the AE "V1" slipper.

[Darren Boyle]

The flywheel weights (and the rest of the new range of "Real Men Wear Black" stuff too) is now all in stock here in the UK.

The flywheel weights arew part number XF5560 and are priced at £14.99, available now to order through any X-Factory UK dealer.....

[mark christopher]

mine are in the post

[Timee80]

Has anybody tried this yet on a rear motor buggy yet? How did it feel?

[elvo]

Originally Posted by Timee80

Has anybody tried this yet on a rear motor buggy yet? How did it feel?

Yes. Very weird.

[mark christopher]

at worksop apart from being knackered with jet lag, got used to car and track and then fitted the weight
car felt better, it steered better and felt no slower but more responsive yet controlled, bloody weird to describe but defo seemed to change it for the better.

[tony12795]

So are people drilling the flywheel out, or leaving them undrilled ??

I have noticed that some people running them are struggling to get the slipper to last a full run, because there over heating ?

Why do they not fit the V2 slipper out of curiosity ?

Tony

[jameswilkinson7]

I've left mine un-drilled... Ive had no problems with the slipper though.

The car feels loads smoother with it on .

[Darren Boyle]

Originally Posted by tony12795

So are people drilling the flywheel out, or leaving them undrilled ??

I have noticed that some people running them are struggling to get the slipper to last a full run, because there over heating ?

Why do they not fit the V2 slipper out of curiosity ?

Tony

The centre "boss" on the V2 slipper plates is bigger then the V1's or the X-Factory ones, so the weight does not sit over it, plus with the V2 spring it is too long to fit on the shaft also when the weight is in place.

Those with slippers burning out are possibly running the slipper juts a touch too soft if that is the case, a tweak by a 32nd or 64th of a turn tighter would possibly cure that...

[tony12795]

Thanks Darren,

I have a flywheel to play around with. When I have installed it the the flywheel sits nicely into the slipper plate in the centre but has a small gap on the outer edge, is this normal and should the outer edge of the flywheel sit up against the plate?
This is on a CR2 not an X6
Tony

[super__dan]

Which slipper plates are you using? Losi and AE / X Factory are not the same (similair though).

Dan

[tony12795]

Dan, that’s why I am asking if the gap is correct, I cannot remember the difference between the types of slipper plates.

I have all the same types, which I would say are Losi not Associated.

Tony

[super__dan]

Just fitted up with both types and it doesn't touch the outer edge with either type. You want the pressure to be applied equally from the middle as with a std slipper setup.

Incidentally the Losi plates are the bigger ones

[elvo]

I've stumbled across this:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/NSR500.htm


The particularly relevant bits:
"
Just as significantly, they also changed the direction of crankshaft rotation. Ever since '84 there had been dark mutterings about 'single-crank voodoo' and a growing belief that the crank's gyro effect was responsible for the bike's wayward handling. In other words, crankshaft inertia made it hard work to steer the bike from its current course. Yamaha ran contra-rotating cranks, which canceled out any gyro effect, HRC thought that was the reason the Yamaha handled better.
Two years later these suspicions would push HRC into testing their own twin-crank motor (not long for life, alas, for the single crank was now The Honda Way) but for now a change of rotation would have to do. Before '87 the NSR crank rotated anti-clockwise, so when the rider opened the throttle, the front would go light, sending the bike disastrously wide on corner exits."
"
There was another advantage to the Big Bang. Although reversing crank rotation in '87 had solved front-end lift, it hadn't totally exorcised single-crank voodoo.
As Doohan explains: "After they changed the rotation the bike would lift the rear when you accelerated, so you'd have the back tire spinning and the rear would lift, making the wheelspin worse. At the same time it pushed the front down, messing up the steering". The Big Bang eradicated the voodoo purely by chance, because the extra vibration produced by the close firing order required a counter-balance shaft that damped out the gyro effect."


It seems the smart boys at Honda Racing Corporation have gone through the same evolution as we have: motor spinning opposite of wheels : lots of wheelspin, front end being pushed down. Motor spinning in the same direction as wheels : poppa wheelie everywhere and you can really feel the gyro effects. Counterbalance shaft spinning opposite the motor was very successful because it was the happy medium ... .... until they figured out how to make the power of the engine suitable for the chassis and tyres. (I.e. less outright power with instant, smooth, predictable delivery and not too much engine braking)

There are power-loving maniacs out there who like the flywheel. I've learned to motor down and gear up ( = motor spins slower = less gyro effects), which in my opinion is the next step in the evolution.

What the article doesn't mention is that after each engine configuration change, suspension changes were needed. MotoGP boys tend to fiddle with swing arm length and position, we fiddle with camber links and anti-squat.

[SHY]

Elvo, would this be something worth trying on astro tracks? (I have one but never got around to trying it)