Go Back   oOple.com Forums > General > General Race Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-02-2013
jimmy's Avatar
jimmy jimmy is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 10,047
Blog Entries: 6
Smile Homologation, Rules and Scrutineering

Just thought I'd open up a debate on these things and see what people think.

For all the classes of racing there are rules, some have homologated aspects and most have some scrutineering. Most of this is probably a good thing.

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Things like ground effects and body height rules are sensible in touring cars - and I believe the bodies have to be marked these days. I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in!

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

At BRCA off road 10th nationals the cars are weighed (doesn't everyone run much heavier than the rules anyway?) and put in a box to check dimensions. It's all good. These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

So then my main puzzlement is:

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?
They were homologated when we were all running brushed motors and it was NOT fair or equal in any way - team guys got motors wound for them, not off the shelf jobs that 'normal people' could buy. So it didn't work then and imho it's not even needed now because it's been made equal by progress.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.
Homologation for cells was utterly useless when we used nicad's and NiMh's because team guys got better cells than any 'factory team' cells normal folk could buy. The best cells I ever had were old knackered cells from a multiple national winner.
So, given the fact that homologation never made anything really 'fair' - and that technology has made off road about as fair as it gets..... why?

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal? Technically I'd guess that there's plenty of drivers running homologated cells that brand new or well used are technically illegal. Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.
No one is hurting for run time, no one is hurting for speed or power - certainly it's sensible to express maximum sizes but these shouldn't be down to microns and drivers shouldn't have to endanger themselves by dremeling their volatile batteries until they meet the size requirements - even though they bought the cells that were on the approved list.

So - what good is homologation when homologated cells are illegal due to manufacturing tolerences. And why is it legal to weaken the case by filing it down to meet the size. Who is gaining an advantage, really.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure............ but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.
Hey - but don't forget that driver figure in your cage body that needs to be based upon genuine desert racing buggies... etc. Please bring photo evidence that this is based upon...

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer - if I buy a shell and modify it then I become the manufacturer. Same as if I'd backpoured the body, re-moulded it, made a fake website and declare that everwhere is a vent. Common sense works better - if it's outrageous and clearly dangerous or looks stupid then you can ban it on-site.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Just my opinions really. I thought a sensible thread on these sort of regulations whether ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA or BRCA etc are worth discussion since I can't be the only one to think some of these things don't help the sport from a professional, and certainly hobbyist level.


Note:
These are just ideas or opinions, don't cry.
__________________
If your PM doesn't at first succeed - try, try again. I'll reply in the end, honest.

Last edited by jimmy; 10-02-2013 at 11:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-02-2013
MikePimlott's Avatar
MikePimlott MikePimlott is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,729
Default

I think the homoligation of cells and motors is basically to keep us safe.
The things on the homoligation lists are tested for safety purposes and the added to the list, i think this is a good thing.

When cab forward first came to light in 8th it was not allowed because it was not a true representation of the scale class, i think that was silly. I beleive cab forward has disadvantages aswell as advatanges and you should be able to choose whatever you want.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-02-2013
jimmy's Avatar
jimmy jimmy is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 10,047
Blog Entries: 6
Default

I'm not sure how a motor isn't safe - there are rules for motors - there doesn't need to be homologation. Homologation is there to make it fair - it didn't work, and now is outdated imho.

Homologated lipos blow up on very rare occasions - how is that safer than another cell that very rarely blows up. Homologated lipo's are also not by virtue of homologation legal to use at sanctioned events. By admission of the BRCA - manufacturers don't keep to their homologated design - why is that XXXXXX lipo that's ROAR approved and is exactly the same cell you use branded ZZZZZZ unsafe suddenly?

Is my Hobbywing ESC unsafe because I'm not running a branded Speedpassion?

Homologation isn't a safety issue - it's there to make the racing fair. When was the last time a motor without the manufacturers name on the end cap unsafe?

Safety is NOT the reason, equal competition IS - so therefore it's useless. Just my opinions though.
__________________
If your PM doesn't at first succeed - try, try again. I'll reply in the end, honest.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-02-2013
MikePimlott's Avatar
MikePimlott MikePimlott is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,729
Default

If thats the case, then i agree with you.

Freedom of choice should be the way.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-02-2013
AfroP AfroP is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Newcastle upon tyne
Posts: 1,112
Default

I'd have to agree with Jimmy.
Why do we need motors to adhere to a certain list? I'm on a fairly tight budget as a racer, I dont run nationals and will be the first to stick my hand up and say I'm not the best driver in the world. So why should I be forced to buy a motor off the Homologation list for £60-£100 when it makes more sense to my pocket to get one thats not on the list for £25

I do understand the need for some scrutiny when it comes lipos as it could be dangerous to others if a badly swollen and over charged lipo goes pop
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-02-2013
danDanEFC's Avatar
danDanEFC danDanEFC is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Crosby, Merseyside
Posts: 1,022
Send a message via MSN to danDanEFC
Default

I wonder why their is a radio compound at Nationals when most are on 2.4?
__________________
Aidan Burke - Southport Radio Car Club
#SchumacherFamily #TQmodels #ExtraLapRCpodcast
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-02-2013
jimmy's Avatar
jimmy jimmy is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 10,047
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danDanEFC View Post
I wonder why their is a radio compound at Nationals when most are on 2.4?
It has been proven by the warriors of oOple.com - that if all those 110 drivers not racing at the time had their radios on, no one would be able to bind their cars. - not much chance of that happening, but there's certainly a limit to 2.4ghz!

I don't know of the brca checking for swolen packs - never heard of that. They don't check for over charged cells either - they only check voltage for reasons of cheating. Yes it's dangerous to try get the volts up, but that's for stock racing, not modified off road. If the cells are over-voltage it makes absolutely no difference to discharge them slightly at the race control. When they do that, it can only be explained as a fair-racing rule, not as a safety rule.
At what point is a stressed lipo safe or not safe just because it's being checked before going on the track. It drops voltage as soon as it's used whether that's on the bench at scrutineering or on the warmup lap - the only way you could excuse it as a safety issue is to immediately ban the person from the meeting for having a lipo that's over the normal voltage. That would force everyone to 'be safe' and make sure their charger was working correctly / the pack was safe.

I don't for a second believe there's any safety in taking an overcooked lipo to a tent full of people so they can stick pokey bits in it to see if it's about to blow up. You either ban people or you stop checking.

Personally I've never in my life seen a lipo blow up - I've seen plenty of NiMh's blow up and it is scary. But if my lipo was dangerous I'd MUCH rather it blow up on the track than in a tent full of people looking closely at it - and they are ONLY checking before you go on the track remember. There's absolutely nothing safe about it unless you confiscate packs (I'd wrestle it back if it were mine) or ban people.

Maybe I think about things too much - but I see sillyness then I call it silly.
__________________
If your PM doesn't at first succeed - try, try again. I'll reply in the end, honest.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-02-2013
cigbunt cigbunt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 531
Default

i agree with Jimmy,

unless these cells under take extra safety tests such as a drop test or puncture test, which i don't believe they do? though i do think they need to police the hard case lipo rule but there should definitely be more cells on the lists.

what makes a mockery of it all is when you get 2 cells both same make both same model only difference being the C rating or mAh but ones on the list and the other isn't

As for motors at least in 1/10 off road class anyways, everyone uses different timed motors so why police it? if one guy can use a 3.5t and another a 13.5t in the same race and both are legal does it really make a difference if its a list or not?

i see motors as quite simple they spin and the car goes forward, the cleaver part is the ESC.

(side note tip for people on budget i think the Speed passion sportsman is on the list probably the cheapest on there about £30 it spins.)

rant over
__________________
--
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-02-2013
Frecklychimp's Avatar
Frecklychimp Frecklychimp is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 1,054
Default

Have to agree too,

My pet hate with the lipo/motor list is it prices out a lot of club racers i've known from taking the step up from club racing into BRCA Regionals and onwards, purely because they have to spend extra to buy something which does the same job.

The lists 10/15 years ago were also to keep costs down for competitors, capping costs made no difference to safety and i'll admit we used to pretty much fry nicads on chargers till they were boiling to get punch out of them to keep up with those team cells and expert hand wound motors!

The bodyshell rules are laughable, surely air holes keep things cooler and help prevent meltdowns

Lipo bags/containers should be homologated/rated by proper destruction testing under realistic conditions... for the safety of everyone if we have to use them. Is it better to have a random unpredicted burning bag in the middle of pits or to be able to see a lipo swelling and being able to get it out of human reach asap before it goes up?

I did find it funny at an undisclosed meeting/venue last year when told to scrutineer ourselves, funnily enough we were all legal that round!
__________________
Mr F.Chimp
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-02-2013
dodgydiy's Avatar
dodgydiy dodgydiy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: west wales
Posts: 744
Default

i agree about the homologation issues. the demon cells i use were listed when i bought them, but reading the rules are now no longer legal as they are not on the list. yes they are five years old, but have been looked after, all work perfectly, have no swelling etc. and still have plenty of punch. why should an average club driver be forced to buy new gear to do a national....... Also the cells in the majority of lipo packs come from a very limited number of factories, most expensive approved cells are likely to be of the same make and model as those used in cheaper unapproved packs with no difference in build or quality other than the plastic case. as far as motors, i can see reasons for homologation for limited classes like 13.5 or 10.5 to create a more equal playing field, but is pretty pointless when there is software around for speed controls that can make a 13.5 piss all over a 6.5 turn motor. open classes shouldnt be homologated. i use the cheap ezrun motors at club, why not allow people to use them at national level, they give no advantage, just work perfectly well enough for an average driver, they just lack a sticker with a make on that adds £50 to the price. anything that cuts costs has got to be good for the sport, and good for clubs holding national events as more people are likely to be encouraged to give it a try
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-02-2013
dodgydiy's Avatar
dodgydiy dodgydiy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: west wales
Posts: 744
Default

nearly forgot, a lipo bag is nowhere near as safe as a metal ammunition box for containing a fire, so why are charging containers superior to a lipo bag not allowed?? rather than homologate the bags wouldnt it be better to put a fire rating on them similar to the method used with building materials, ie a time that the bag should contain a fire for
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-02-2013
jimmy's Avatar
jimmy jimmy is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 10,047
Blog Entries: 6
Default

I think a full metal durango chassis would contain a lipo fire better than a lipo sac - why isn't it mandatory that everyone runs a full-metal durango?

Seriously though - if you're going to make a rule, follow through. Organise it properly and talk to a manufacturer who'll give a bulk discount. Everyone racing a sanctioned event gets a nomex fireproof bag for a fiver, or a metal container etc.. Everyone has a stamped approved ifmar/efra/ whatever bag that's actually been tested by someone with the skills to blow up some stuff - and is confident enough that it'll not contain the fire for 30 seconds but for EVER, nothing safe about charging a lipo in a tent whilst you're not there and having it burn a hole in your table and down to that acetone container. Ker-boom.

Safety doesn't end with 0.1v of cell discharging in a crowded tent or a flimsy lipo sac. I'm an all or nothing guy - either do it properly or not at all. It's a waste of everyones time to run a middle ground that neither protects nor serves the racers.
__________________
If your PM doesn't at first succeed - try, try again. I'll reply in the end, honest.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-02-2013
TARTMAN's Avatar
TARTMAN TARTMAN is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ash, Near Guildford
Posts: 1,841
Default exactly

Jimmy, well said.
I personally feel so many of the "rules" that are still in play are so out dated and pointless.
Safety yes. of course.
But the rest of them are silly. For off rd 10th electric, as thats what i race mainly. SO many rules are just silly. As Jimmy mentioned many, width, weight etc.
Motors and lipos are all pretty much made the same/similar way as are most ESC's.
The BRCA/ROAR etc etc have been doing it the way they want for far to long. IMHO.

But, will it change? hmmmmmm..............

The "LIST" thats approved, is for the BRCA etc to decide what they put in or dont, and if no one sends it to them and pays for it to be approved etc, then its out. Does this make it unsafe? nope, not at all. I usedsome nanotech cells for 9 months, cheaper than the branded "listed" ones and performed great, no swelling bla bla and still not on the list. they were not unsafe. just not listed.
Motors as well. same thing.

Its all a bit to "the establishment" to me.

Regionals, they scrutineered the cars for weight and width. not one person removed the shell to look at motors, esc, lipos etc etc. If its a safety issue, then i will mention one VERY IMPORTANT THING.,

It says somewhere that all buggies are to have quick release lipo/battery straps, in the BRCA rules. hmmmm, I know of many many cars that do NOT have this. so, they should NOT be allowed on a brca insured track, and thats just about all clubs i think. BUT, No one says a word about that.

Seems that only when it suits them are things looked into.

Just my thoughts/ranting..........
__________________
XB4 & MORE
, Team Xray,
Team Gainsy Graphics, DPP Racing
2013 & 2014 OOPLE INVERNATIONAL
BEER RACE RUNNER UP!

FEEDBACK LINK =
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-02-2013
neallewis's Avatar
neallewis neallewis is offline
*SuPeRsTaR mEmBeR*
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 3,364
Default

Homologation is essentially a tax on the importer/distributor/vendor to give the product a "fit for competition" stamp. Being on the list means more sales, but also pumping money into the BRCA for the right to be on the list. It effectively keeps the prices of a product bumped up to pay for the inspection (actually I just checked the cost, and it's far less than I thought).
Regarding ROAR vs EFRA and BRCA approval, etc. The ROAR testing spec is far more stringent, so it is safe to assume that a typical ROAR or EFRA passed hard case pack is perfectly safe to use for club racing (Gens ace/Hobbyking Turnigy, etc), but hasn't contributed funds into the BRCA coffers so isn't on the list for those regional/national events. To be fair there is nothing wrong with pumping money into the BRCA as it helps fund the events, racing and hobby we enjoy. But the lists are effectively another funding stream for the BRCA, not safety, though I'm sure they would argue otherwise. In fairness, if you look at any other organised body, like a sporting association, national group of clubs with a common interest, or annual subscription "club" , they have formulated a set of rules and regs to follow, mostly for insurance or liability purposes. I'll correct myself then, the homologation list(s) are essentially for liability shift, rather than an individuals safety.

Jimmy you are spot on with regards speedo/ESC software, but a guess the blinky lists are a fair indication of the "approved" or passed as fair devices available.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team Yokomo - YZ-2CAL3 | YZ-2DTM3 | YZ-4SF | YZ-2DTM Worlds | YZ-2DTM x2 | YRX-12 x2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10electric | Batley Buggy Club | YORCC | RHR | MB Models
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-02-2013
RudeTony's Avatar
RudeTony RudeTony is offline
oOple Advertiser
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sunningdale, Surrey
Posts: 1,617
Default

In pointers otherwise would be too long of a post

There has to be a list for sanctioned events otherwise could you imagine what could be available at £20 - £30
Like pointed out there could be nothing wrong with the lower end electrical stuff BUT it would be a licence to actually produce cheap rubbish and then IT WOULD FOR SURE BE ISSUES WITH SAFETY

Not all Lipos are from similar sources - I run Orion and they are specially made by Orion for our sport

I agree there should be some sort of marking or standards for Lipo sacks

Some of the stuff that Jimmy has pointed out (the axle being a fraction too big through a wheel nut) is of course very silly to say the least and yes common sense should be the cure
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-02-2013
mattr mattr is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,838
Default

It's really down to the writers of the standards.

They take an existing standard, and as technology advances, they update to still cover the old tech and add in the new tech, and try to account for the differences in the best way they know how. Which is usually not very well.
As the new technology (the electronics bits really) is so different from what you had before. So when the old tech drops out of circulation you are left with rules that don't really apply, or are written so vaguely that you could drive a bus through the loopholes.
Doesn't help that a lot of homologation standards are written by the people involved (drivers/committee members/keen parents), who gather a lot of information from reviews and manufacturing blurb, with a smattering of technical data, rather than being written by people who write standards.

Whats needed is a wholesale rewriting, from scratch.

(i deal with homologation standards written by government committees, they are far far far far (far) worse than the BRCA/ROAR/etc standards, and have long lasting (negative) impact on what we are allowed to do.)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-02-2013
kjrell kjrell is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 17
Default

Have to agree with Jimmy.

Homologated items are much more a discrimination in terms of costs than a fair racing rule.

For exemple, how many people do not participate to races because they can have 3 nano-tech for the price of one homologated pack?

There should be more racers participating without these nonsense homologations
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-02-2013
mark christopher's Avatar
mark christopher mark christopher is offline
Spends too long on oOple ...
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: haxey, doncaster
Posts: 7,765
Send a message via MSN to mark christopher
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RudeTony View Post
In pointers otherwise would be too long of a post

There has to be a list for sanctioned events otherwise could you imagine what could be available at £20 - £30
Like pointed out there could be nothing wrong with the lower end electrical stuff BUT it would be a licence to actually produce cheap rubbish and then IT WOULD FOR SURE BE ISSUES WITH SAFETY

Not all Lipos are from similar sources - I run Orion and they are specially made by Orion for our sport

I agree there should be some sort of marking or standards for Lipo sacks

Some of the stuff that Jimmy has pointed out (the axle being a fraction too big through a wheel nut) is of course very silly to say the least and yes common sense should be the cure
Yet the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell, and are you sure there not made by kokham, they definatly used to be.
__________________
MBModels - Schumacher Racing - Vapextech.co.uk - MRT - RCDisco
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-02-2013
KooBee's Avatar
KooBee KooBee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 40
Default

As a side note, Finnish 2013 season rules for batteries go as follows (roughly translated):

either EFRA- or ROAR-approved hardcase battery or a similar model from the same manufacturer with a maximum capacity of 7000 mAh
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-02-2013
mattr mattr is offline
Mad Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,838
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RudeTony View Post
Not all Lipos are from similar sources - I run Orion and they are specially made by Orion for our sport
Yet the biggest moan is Orion are the ones that swell, and are you sure there not made by kokham, they definatly used to be.
I'd be *very* surprised if Orion are big enough to actually make their own batteries. Its an utterly gargantuan investment to set up a factory to make the cells themselves.
One issue we've got at work is that everywhere is rapidly running out of manufacturing capacity to make the damn things. And no one can/will pay to set up a new factory. (And even the small players in this business are massive)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
oOple.com