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  #41  
Old 07-02-2013
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Terry - you can't read and you either agreed with me in your replies or misunderstood, or just went off on a tangent. You have absolutely no clue sir, no clue at all.

If someone wants to start racing where would you suggest they go, oOple or BRCA website for info? I know what I think, I know I'm a helpful considerate guy - and I also see outside the box that you're stuck in.

If you think I'm a wanker - call me a wanker - don't dick about. I call it like I see it - why you keep ranting on about 12th scale I've no idea. We don't overcharge cells in 10th off road, end of.
I think you're completely out of touch, not sure if I mentioned that, but you are.
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  #42  
Old 07-02-2013
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Jimmy, I don't know if you and Terry have underlying issues but what he has said is absolutely spot on.
Homologation has been heavily referred to in this thread and Terry's comments regarding that are right and I would suggest anyone who might want to post would read them before retreading old ground.
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  #43  
Old 07-02-2013
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
Bang on.

If something is on the list then you know the importer has proven they are responsible for any liability from any accidents with the products they sell. The 'tax' on the importers from covering the costs of homologation is very quickly recouped in sales.
I hope the Tamiya TRF511 doesn't crash into anyone, because imagine the liability - there's no official importer!
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  #44  
Old 07-02-2013
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The BRCA are us the racers, the committee is voted in by us and the rules are voted in by us and voted out by us.

If you don't like something its important to act to change it.

As someone who is involved with getting stuff homologated and has had products fail at a big expense to us, I still think its vitally important work that Paul Worsley does in his own time for no cost.

Firstly the fees if any are completely negligible, any company looking to sell a product into UK can get homologated.

The rules for motors especially are a cost saver to us the racer as they limit the factors that could make a motor super fast but have a very short lifespan, meaning that only the top sponsored guys could have any chance to win competitions like the bad old days.

Batteries can be and are overcharged and at too high a C rate which causes dangers and reduces lifespan, again the voltage check keeps these factors in check.


To have a race class you must have rules, these rules do need amending to keep up with market trends and technical improvements. To me Offroad is one of the few classes that is really open and fair. Go to a TC Spec race and you need a lawyer to get past Scrutineering.
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  #45  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRob View Post
Jimmy, I don't know if you and Terry have underlying issues but what he has said is absolutely spot on.
Homologation has been heavily referred to in this thread and Terry's comments regarding that are right and I would suggest anyone who might want to post would read them before retreading old ground.

That's your opinion - I don't agree. I think he's wrong. But - that's my opinion.
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  #46  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark christopher View Post
Seen many posts saying that the Orion high c ratings have swollen, and after I advised em to contact you at Orion uk, they were told basically not interested. One was in fb page Louth model car club

Mark,

Just because someone has a swollen or worn out damaged pack it does not mean they will get a FOC replacement. If it did we would be out of business.
Team Orion batteries are used by many people without problems, yes there are issues and we try to deal with them fairly.

Please stop attacking Orion unless you can prove no other brand has Battery failures?
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  #47  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Skull View Post
Batteries can be and are overcharged and at too high a C rate which causes dangers and reduces lifespan, again the voltage check keeps these factors in check.
The problem is, if you read what Terry said - it's a complete misquote. He somehow missed the fact I was talking about unrestricted class that's limited by skill and keeping a car on its wheels. There is no need to over charge cells - it doesn't happen.
Please prove me wrong.
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  #48  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
That's your opinion - I don't agree. I think he's wrong. But - that's my opinion.
Okay.
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  #49  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Personally I've never in my life seen a lipo blow up
I've seen two go up, both indoors, both in unhommologated LiPo bags. In both case the bag bought time to get a bucket of sand to put out the fire. One was like the 1st link and wasn't closed properly, the ears weren't inside and the other in the second link was. Velcro does not like heat and fails as soon as it feels the heat.

http://www.rc-news.de/wp-content/upl...LiPo_Bag_2.jpg

http://www.giantshark.co.uk/images/lipo%20bag.jpg
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  #50  
Old 07-02-2013
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Believe me Keith, you are free to talk to me and raise one single point that Terry said and I'm fairly sure I'll rebuff it with common sense.

When someone starts ranting on about the safety at a 12th scale race - when I was clearly and solely talking about 10th off road modified, I guess you just have to let it go.

Completely and utterly missing the point. Amazing!
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  #51  
Old 07-02-2013
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There should be only two rules:

1) Commericially available in the UK.

2) Any racer should be able to challenge you for your item (motor, esc, lipo etc) for the UK list price of that item plus a small fee for the inconvience to you.

So you can create a cheating motor if you want, but anybody you beat has the right to buy it off you so the advantage is temporary at best.
Safety should also be covered by that if we want to - lipos that catch fire in normal use are hardly 'fit for purpose'.


As for the box - What bugs me is that standard out of the box cars frequently don't fit in the box. WTF? I assume manufacturers make them to the maximum size the rules allow, and some variance occurs which means a few are over, but the result is a silly rule that requires club racers at big events to start filing axles like mad (Team drivers normally check this before the meeting!) when they weren't even trying to cheat in the first place!


Anyway just remember rules aren't meant to make racing be fair, just to give the illusion that its fair.
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  #52  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chequered Flag Racing View Post
I've seen two go up, both indoors, both in unhommologated LiPo bags. In both case the bag bought time to get a bucket of sand to put out the fire. One was like the 1st link and wasn't closed properly, the ears weren't inside and the other in the second link was. Velcro does not like heat and fails as soon as it feels the heat.

http://www.rc-news.de/wp-content/upl...LiPo_Bag_2.jpg

http://www.giantshark.co.uk/images/lipo%20bag.jpg
ouch!
I must say, I'm tempted to get a metal container for my cells. Yes a lipo sac buys a couple of seconds if it's spotted in time - I'm not sure at what point seeing the cells balloon is safer or having them hidden is safer. I don't fancy my hoiuse burning down though so biscuit tin it is!
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  #53  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Believe me Keith, you are free to talk to me and raise one single point that Terry said and I'm fairly sure I'll rebuff it with common sense.

When someone starts ranting on about the safety at a 12th scale race - when I was clearly and solely talking about 10th off road modified, I guess you just have to let it go.

Completely and utterly missing the point. Amazing!
That's okay Jimmy, it wasn't meant as a sarcastic 'okay' if it came across that way. It was an okay I accept that we have different views on this.
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  #54  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Si Coe View Post
There should be only two rules:

1) Commericially available in the UK.

2) Any racer should be able to challenge you for your item (motor, esc, lipo etc) for the UK list price of that item plus a small fee for the inconvience to you.

So you can create a cheating motor if you want, but anybody you beat has the right to buy it off you so the advantage is temporary at best.


As for the box - What bugs me is that standard out of the box cars frequently don't fit in the box. WTF? I assume manufacturers make them to the maximum size the rules allow, and some variance occurs which means a few are over, but the result is a silly rule that requires club racers at big events to start filing axles like mad (Team drivers normally check this before the meeting!) when they weren't even trying to cheat in the first place!


Anyway just remember rules aren't meant to make racing be fair, just to give the illusion that its fair.
I like what you're saying there Si, particularly the last line. Illusion, certainly!

The brilliant thing about 10th off road now is that there's no such thing as a cheating motor - the cars are just too fast. We have the rules about traction control etc and sizes. Have at it and race.
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  #55  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Skull View Post
The BRCA are us the racers, the committee is voted in by us and the rules are voted in by us and voted out by us.

If you don't like something its important to act to change it.

As someone who is involved with getting stuff homologated and has had products fail at a big expense to us, I still think its vitally important work that Paul Worsley does in his own time for no cost.

Firstly the fees if any are completely negligible, any company looking to sell a product into UK can get homologated.

The rules for motors especially are a cost saver to us the racer as they limit the factors that could make a motor super fast but have a very short lifespan, meaning that only the top sponsored guys could have any chance to win competitions like the bad old days.

Batteries can be and are overcharged and at too high a C rate which causes dangers and reduces lifespan, again the voltage check keeps these factors in check.


To have a race class you must have rules, these rules do need amending to keep up with market trends and technical improvements. To me Offroad is one of the few classes that is really open and fair. Go to a TC Spec race and you need a lawyer to get past Scrutineering.
I have been a member of the BRCA for many years and have never ever been invited to Vote in or Vote out anyone from it...
I personally agree with Jimmy on this. Its like we are stuck in the 80's/90's.
As for Batterys and motors in 1/10th off road. Speed advantages are hardly noticeable between a 10.5 Boosted and 6.5 Boosted so i personally think any motor should be acceptable.

MY 2P worth
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  #56  
Old 07-02-2013
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Originally Posted by jaywestwood View Post
I have been a member of the BRCA for many years and have never ever been invited to Vote in or Vote out anyone from it...
You have to attend the AGM/EGM's for the sections to do this.
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  #57  
Old 07-02-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRob View Post
That's okay Jimmy, it wasn't meant as a sarcastic 'okay' if it came across that way. It was an okay I accept that we have different views on this.
I think you're ace Keith - I'm not sure if I've met Terry or not. Terry made and makes absolutely no sense to me - just, like, chill out man! Breath and look at what I said. You can't possibly kick of a post with something about touring cars and how I should have called for the scale looks in buggies - when I clearly did that in my first post and am 'known' for my hate of non-scale looking cars.

Some people and I'm not pointing at you here Keith, think it's all about the 1% at the very top who take it very very seriously (and cheat, and blow themselves up in onroad classes, apparently) but forget the vast majority of people who are into this HOBBY for fun.
I'm into it for fun. I appreciate all that EFRA/IFMAR/BRCA etc has done and I'm always one of the last to thank the organisers of any race meeting - I mean, I am there till the end usually. I don't do any of this for any other reason than I enjoy it.
I've given up a good living in computer games - an easy living where I could just sit all day and draw stuff. I worked 24 hours non-stop through to 1:30 this afternoon on various things - not for money but because I have passion.

I want to promote the sport but insular thinking isn't going to help - I don't think like regular people because I'm slightly odd and I am there laying in a puddle, getting hit by cars, spending thousands of pounds on cameras for what - if you added up everything I've ever gained from R/C it wouldn't come close to what I've spent on it.
I'm probably too passionate for my own good but there it is - you make of it what you will. Any time someone thanks me for getting them into R/C again or when I help people out, clubs etc - that is what it's about. Knowing you've done some good.

If something good comes of this particular thread - then maybe one day some people will stop hating me, I don't know.
I spoke outloud in this manner at Stotfold national last year - where I pointed out a need for an RRCi style series as people like me can't even race nationals or Euros anymore.
What happend? People talked about it and things started to pick up. In the end we decided to try running a series and told the BRCA first as a way of courtesy and to inform of our intentions.
This year the entries will be open - who knows how it'll go, or if it'll take off properly. I see people want to meet new friends from around the country / europe / world and love the atmosphere of a friendly less formal race meeting. The BRCA I believe do, or did say that the national series wasn't a family event - forgive me if I've mis quoted that, but I am the opposite. Come to the oOple invernational and you will only see smiles.
When a young lad fell and broke his transmitter I organised a new one for him FOC straight away - his dad was happy enough to go at repairing the broken one in the end, but you know, helping people and making the sport bigger and better is what I love.
The oOple Invernational and Series are non-profit and is totally and utterly seperate from me or this website financially. That's how it's always been and always will be.

Terry can think what he likes at the end of the day and misquote me till his keyboard wears out - but I know I have more passion than him.
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  #58  
Old 07-02-2013
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So, all we need to do is get the BRCA members to change the offroad rules at the next AGM
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  #59  
Old 07-02-2013
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Homologation is a throwback from the days when we didn't have more power than grip (in general, across all classes). The last ''big'' meeting at the Ashby On-road track was a Schumacher BTCC round in 2007, and IIRC the pole time in 19t brushed would have gotten TQ at the 1999 TC Euros, thats the rate of progress. Anyway, I believe the construction rules and regs were put in place to stop someone concocting some sort of Frankenstein motor with neodymium magnets and some other exotic (powerful) materials to go faster than Joe Bloggs next to you on the rostrum.

Now, as Jimmy says, we have waaaaaaay more power than most can handle. Can't drive the car with a 6.5? Drop in a 7.5. Can't drive 2WD? Go 4WD. And to that line, I think homologation is a bit redundant to a degree. The fastest guys will still choose to race with whatever they think is the best, and will still top the timesheets. I think the mid-pack would be affected though, if faster stuff came through at a premium over what we have now, the manufacturers would get right on it and hike up the prices. With a higher price-tag, then Joe Racer may not be able to get the flavour of the month every time someone made a faster motor or LiPo, and we can all guess where that would be headed.

Everything in RC has gotten more expensive. Cars, batteries, motors, ESCs etc. Thats a given, but you've really gotta ask yourself this. Are you doing RC to pick up sponsorships and plastic trophies, or to hang out with mates and have a good time? If its the latter....do you really need to spend as much as you have on all your gear?

All my suppositions and opinions though.

- Edit, just saw what Jimmy posted above, seems like a similar way of thinking to myself. Great minds and all that.
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  #60  
Old 07-02-2013
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Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Just thought I'd open up a debate on these things and see what people think.

For all the classes of racing there are rules, some have homologated aspects and most have some scrutineering. Most of this is probably a good thing.

8th buggies have their tanks checked for capacity - but the only national I've ever been to, I was shocked to see that it ultimately came down to a divide between people who could run 10 minutes and those that couldn't - and therefore had to pit more often.

Things like ground effects and body height rules are sensible in touring cars - and I believe the bodies have to be marked these days. I have to question why they aren't forced to run actual touring car bodies but instead streamlined bathtubs that look nothing like a car I'd want to be seen in!

When it comes to electric racing - and particularly off-road where my personal interest mainly lays with (hey, I like it all tho), there's a limiting factor called skill.
10th buggy racers are more equal than ever before - despite, not because of, the scrutineering, rules and homologation. When you can always have more power and duration than you could possibly ever use, why homologate?

At BRCA off road 10th nationals the cars are weighed (doesn't everyone run much heavier than the rules anyway?) and put in a box to check dimensions. It's all good. These days the cells are checked for voltage above the norm - it was explained to me that people have been known to cheat by over-cooking their lipo's in some way, but clearly in off road, no one is ever going to do that, because it won't make a difference.
I think now they might claim it to be a safety issue - but standing there revving the car until the voltage drops would have been the same if the car had done a warmup lap anyway.

Lipo bags - are there guidelines for these? My lipo bag I can't see possibly stopping the devastating power of a lipo going off. Maybe that's something that actually should be homologated, and properly tested.

The most dangerous batteries in the entire universe as far as I'm concerned were the last generation of NiMh cells. I'd say these were less predictable and possibly more dangerous than a lipo cell - but there were no charging-in-sac rules for those. I personally witnessed a pack explode in a car that was being carried - it blew the car apart. I also saw a pack explode on someones table - luckly they weren't there, but some people got hit far away by metal from the huge explosion. Some how these were homologated!

So then my main puzzlement is:

Why are motors homologated - what is the advantage in off road?
They were homologated when we were all running brushed motors and it was NOT fair or equal in any way - team guys got motors wound for them, not off the shelf jobs that 'normal people' could buy. So it didn't work then and imho it's not even needed now because it's been made equal by progress.

Batteries - why are they homologated? For sure spec them in a hard case and 7.4v etc - but why do they need homologation.
Homologation for cells was utterly useless when we used nicad's and NiMh's because team guys got better cells than any 'factory team' cells normal folk could buy. The best cells I ever had were old knackered cells from a multiple national winner.
So, given the fact that homologation never made anything really 'fair' - and that technology has made off road about as fair as it gets..... why?

Why are lipo cells which are well known to sometimes swell slightly with normal use, I mean, fractions of a mm, homologated but still illegal? Technically I'd guess that there's plenty of drivers running homologated cells that brand new or well used are technically illegal. Surely if you homologate something, it's legal - but it doesn't work that way.
No one is hurting for run time, no one is hurting for speed or power - certainly it's sensible to express maximum sizes but these shouldn't be down to microns and drivers shouldn't have to endanger themselves by dremeling their volatile batteries until they meet the size requirements - even though they bought the cells that were on the approved list.

So - what good is homologation when homologated cells are illegal due to manufacturing tolerences. And why is it legal to weaken the case by filing it down to meet the size. Who is gaining an advantage, really.

One of the few advantages some sponsored drivers may have these days is in the software on their ESC's. They will get the latest developments before anyone but this isn't regulated at all. One area that you could argue should be homologated but isn't - I wouldn't argue for it, but it shows how behind the times some of these things are.

I think there's a lot of daft things personally that need modernising. How can you possibly have a rule that states your 'open cage' buggy should be a realistic representation and have a driver figure............ but then you allow a cab forward shell? Yes - you can run a shell no possible scale humanoid would ever fit in that looks nothing like a buggy but more like a spaceship - and you can have painted opaque windows if you like.
Hey - but don't forget that driver figure in your cage body that needs to be based upon genuine desert racing buggies... etc. Please bring photo evidence that this is based upon...

Body shell holes - how can you say they need to be defined by the manufacturer - if I buy a shell and modify it then I become the manufacturer. Same as if I'd backpoured the body, re-moulded it, made a fake website and declare that everwhere is a vent. Common sense works better - if it's outrageous and clearly dangerous or looks stupid then you can ban it on-site.

I'm in it for the love - rules, control tyres and fair racing are all good. I think things are well behind the times though. Having your wheel nuts slightly interfere with a size checking box makes ab-so-lutely no difference on the track but you win the worlds with that and you'd be disqualified. Silly.

Just my opinions really. I thought a sensible thread on these sort of regulations whether ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA or BRCA etc are worth discussion since I can't be the only one to think some of these things don't help the sport from a professional, and certainly hobbyist level.
Right, LiPo voltage, I can understand initially why they were doing it, was that quite a few of the first lot of LiPo chargers were not very accurate on their Voltage regulation and recording. But now they should all be fine, if you are found to be over V once you should be informed and warned, the 2nd time should be a penalty then, if it is a rule otherwise I don't understand the reasoning at a national for doing it in buggies, although in stock saloons then any advantage that is gained but dodgy practices should be jumped on.

LiPo sack, there are pro's and cons, the pro's are that a properly constructed LiPo sack is only there as a containment whilst you disconnect from charger etc. Cons, there are many, firstly unless they are almost airtight, pointless, you also can't see an early indicators of issue's and the big one is, who dictates if a LiPo sack is safe, I know that the manufacturer/distributor is responsible for any claims, but, if I were to buy a fire blanket it would have BS Kite marks and conform to ISO regulations, if I was a particularly fussy insurance assessor, I would be asking what these are constructed in accordance with. As for LiPo fires, only ones I have seen have been on the track. Most failures I have heard of whilst charging is user arror (wrong profile on charger).

I also agree, LiPo's are far FAR inherently safer than the last couple of generations of NiMH batteries, they were lethal and the only 'guidance' was to charge at 1C.

HOMOLOGATION

If you have rules for construction then you have to homologate, which is only ever a concern for you if you are running at a BRCA controlled event. Once you have got past the national series then surely it is up to the organisers whether they follow the list. There is nothing stopping anyone buying cheap as long as they don't wish to participate in a National (as the rules are to govern the national series and guidance for all else). But, if one governing body has homologated a product I don't see a reason why another body has to, so if a battery is ROAR approved or BRCA approved, they should be legal for use at sanctioned events world wide.

Now, the one confusion I have is that motors can be submitted at any time but batteries once a year, which kinda discourages getting them sorted. I do understand that when we were racing NiCD and NiMH's that we would have 6 packs and if someone brought out a bigger capacity cell then we would all really be forced to go buy them to keep up, but as Jimmy has said, nobody struggles now for duration, so I can't really see anyone jumping mid season because Team X has brought out a new battery.

I think, for the beginner, it can look all very much daunting and expensive to get into it (although I know for a fact, in relative terms, it is far FAR cheaper than when I first started in 1989).

I do understand the need for a BRCA and fully understand how it works etc, and as a club official, the only thing that interests me is the General Rules, as that is all we have to follow in the end. I think clubs have to decide as to how strict they are on the rest of the rules, to be honest. I won't turn someone away because their gear isn't on the list, as long as their car is safe and they fallow the general rules that is all I am interested in.

I do feel that when you create rules due to 'safety' then you do leave yourself wide open for a swift kick in the nuts. If I am charging in out hall in a secured LiPo sack, and I have a failure, the sack doesn't contain the fire and it damages the table, blind and wall then the hall claims against us, we pass it on to the BRCA who will then pass it on to the manufacturer/distributor of the sack. Now, the insurance company can go for two groups, the BRCA for stipulating a product HAS to be used but then provide no regulations as to how they are built and the distributor, which is where it can come really sticky, as they are making a safety product that conforms to no regs. It is a hornets nest of dilema's. I do think though that this rules has come about due to members not paying attention to, LiPo cells are in everything, phones, laptops, hand held gaming devices etc, and I have only seen one pic of a lipo fire from a mobile phone....

So Jimmy, I see and agree with most of it, my problem is these days, that due to me not doing nationals, most of it I couldn't give a toss about
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