17.5 too fast? - Page 2

neallewis · #21 14-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by daz

I must be way behind the times but wtf is blinky??

It's basically a locked timing mode (at 0deg), with a flashing LED to indicate the speedo is in that mode, hence blinky.

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.o...0v2%202012.pdf

its popular in america, where they run much more blinky/sportsmans club classes along with fixed spec motors, 17.5, 15.5, 10.5, etc.
It's also used in 1/12th and GT12, and some touring car classes I believe?

neallewis · #22 14-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by bretts

This all sounds like it's a bit complicated & expensive to me

How about this (quick google)

Etronix Probe WP ESC 15t motor limit & Lipo cut off under £25
HPI Saturn 20t motor under £10

Ideal for beginners...then replace when confident to go faster.

I agree!

Brushed sealed can motors won't last long with lipos though. I know they are on £8, but you will burn through a few through the year.

I'm not so sure that enforcing a 17.5 blinky spec class is the answer either. That will just lead to cost increases and buying more and more expensive motors and lipos, against the spirit of the class, cheap and level racing for beginners, kids or those wanting level competition.

450kid · #23 14-01-2013

At the end of the day it's still down to driver skills and if you don't have it you won't be at the front anyway. The rules are same for everyone you can all do the same it's just restricting to motor turns! I've dropped into the 540 class but used a 2wd to still have some compation on points nights and I really enjoyed how close the racing was, which is what the class is ment to be.

johnboy · #24 14-01-2013

Im glad this thread has appeared. This class is aimed at the beginner/kids and the old lads but watching of late the power these cars have is too much for most in the class. Its got out of control with people ramping the timing up messing with boost ect. Where has the level playing field of the tamiya sport tuned and saturn 20t days gone?

I think this class should have stayed brushed with some rules to keep the costs down this way beginners would have a chance to learn how to race correctly before tackling faster brushless and promote cheaper closer racing.

Before anyone says about lipo performance now you can buy lipos cheap at a max of 40c not producing massive amounts of power. This will ensure motors dont burn out fast and the average price of this kind of lipo is around £40 not £90 like the higher c rating.

Motor should be the saturn 20t at £8 and for a seasons racing if you ended up using 2 or 3 its cost at max £24.

If the class was still brushed then i would say a controlled ESC to be used IE the one that Brett suggested again to keep costs down and stop people buying power advantage.

When i started out this class was Brilliant close racing quite quick but not out of control like now. The committee at York have missed a trick here in keeping this class from getting out of hand and keeping it beginner friendly.

AC199 · #25 14-01-2013

I've been thinking about this today during a very boring set of lectures...

I agree that running a strict blinky mode would be expensive, but I disagree that running 20t saturns is going to. 15 quid for a speedo, and 8 quid for a motor is cheap enough. Even if you use 4 over the year, that's still less than the cost of a brushless motor...

I have to agree with John above, the class used to be brilliant, and it can be again, but this trend for boosted to the bollocks brushless systems has to stop, its killing the class.

Any chance we can get some clarification from the committee about whether any changes will be made? I realise the nature of committee's is to run at the rate of glass, but given the response here, surely you can see that changes need to be made...

johnboy · #26 14-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC199

I've been thinking about this today during a very boring set of lectures...

I agree that running a strict blinky mode would be expensive, but I disagree that running 20t saturns is going to. 15 quid for a speedo, and 8 quid for a motor is cheap enough. Even if you use 4 over the year, that's still less than the cost of a brushless motor...

I have to agree with John above, the class used to be brilliant, and it can be again, but this trend for boosted to the bollocks brushless systems has to stop, its killing the class.

Any chance we can get some clarification from the committee about whether any changes will be made? I realise the nature of committee's is to run at the rate of glass, but given the response here, surely you can see that changes need to be made...

When i first started it was 2wd only as well. Not only did this teach driving but running costs were very cheap.

Robby · #27 14-01-2013

The problem as I see it is that this class is trying too hard to encompass too many sets of parameters to include to diverse a set vehicles and power supplies - kids, geezers, BL, brushed, lipo, nimh's, blinky, non-blinky, etc., etc., etc. - to the point it's turned into a "catch all class" .... And the problem with "catch all classes" is they're impossible to enforce.

Having run into this sort of thing many times before over many years at many different tracks there are tons of arguments:
* You can't have a class to include just kids, if youngsters are running in other classes.
* You can't have a class to include older guys, if older guys are running in other classes.
* You can't have a class to include just 17.5 BL motors (or brushed motors), if those motors are allowed to run in other classes.
* Etc., etc., etc.
* And calling it the "540 class" legitimizes the class, and once you do that you open it to all takers.

The other problem I see is people being allowed to use this as a fallback class. When they see they're not competitive in the bigboy classes, they drop in a 17.5 or 540 motor and then beat up on the newbies - that ain't right and shouldn't be allowed.

Now I do disagree over batteries being an issue in this class, unless they continue to allow boost-able ESCs, being as I've tested my practice packs against my 60C-plus packs and IMHO the high dollar Lipo packs don't give you any added speed in 17.5 and slower classes I've run.

I also disagree with those that say so-called "blinky mode" ESCs are expensive - because they're really not, being as those that purchase those boostable ESCs already spent the money, and in reality any "one-touch" style ESC (which includes any older and/or less expensive brands) should be included in the list of approved blinky ESCs.

What I do see is the need for a "Newbie" or "Rookie" class, and limit it to strictly new drivers - use it as a stepping stone class, and once someone's run it it long enough (6 months?) or won the class enough times (3 win limit) boot them up to the next class. But call it some name that any experienced wheel wouldn't embarrass themselves by entering in it. Having someone run in your 540 class for over a year is counter productive, they need to be moved up and into the faster classes and if they're not that good they need to get used to running in the E-Final (or wherever is appropriate for their skill level). At the same time suggest to them that while they can buy speed that it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be faster, so maybe they should keep running their 540/17.5 in the faster class.

If you want to have a "Senior class," for the older drivers, let the older guys run with the older guys - but keep them away from the younger drivers too (they're too savvy, and have too big a pocketbooks, for their own good), let alone allowing them to beat up on the inexperienced drivers. They had their day of outrunning the field when they were young and their reactions quicker, and now that they're older and not as fast they need to get used to running in the lower finals with the other slower drivers. And not using the 17.5/540 class as their new domain.
The if you have a regular 17.5 class, or what used to be called "stock class," then you should be only limited by the current national/international rules for said class.

Ultimately, to me at least, it comes down to the fact that "back in the day" it used to be a lot easier - as you had just 2 classes, "stock" and "modified." You ran one or the other. Now I blame many of these problems on the ruling organizations (IFMAR, ROAR, etc.) - by adding classes at the drop of the hat, while not keeping up with technology so as to keep boosted ESCs out of the "strictly stock" classes. But it really comes down to individual clubs to keep things sorted so racing stays fun and competitive for everyone - but you've got to de-legitimize these sort of "made up classes" to keep the experienced drivers out of them.

~ Best Of Luck

keenbutkrap · #28 14-01-2013

core rc speedo £50 speed passion revention £55 not huge prices for blinky
the cost is as much as you want to pay but you shuoldnt be able to buy an advantage

Si Coe · #29 14-01-2013

I've been watching this as there has been discussion elsewhere about beginner classes etc.

I think the problem is the name. Calling it 540 or spec or whatever makes it a legitimate class for all, hence your problem now. Calling it Novice doesn't work either - there are some (especially older) drivers who certainly aren't new but can't drive for toffee!

We call ours Fun class. Its a catch all class for cars, drivers, motors etc with no actual limits, but mostly quite slow cars. Nobody tries to spend big money to win, or deliberately enters to pot hunt in something called Fun class. Its mere name suggests the pointlessness in that! People want to move up to the big boys when they can, even if that means bottom of the C because thats a 'real' class.
Ironically racing in fun can be very close, despite the diverse array of drivers and equipment. A good driver with a slow car can make for an interesting race against a faster but sloppier driver.....

450kid · #30 14-01-2013

Since when did 540 class become old has beens class or newbie class? It's always been 540 class for some good close racing. I admit when I had a few goes on points night I had to push really hard to keep up front but I really enjoyed it. Everyone in the class helped out especially the old boy's helping me with set-up and Speedo settings! It is what it's ment to be everyone with the same motor. The lad who won 540 class last weekend was his first ever win since he started last year. He loves the class because he started with a modified motor then went to 540 class and has now learned to drive a lot better cause his car is not too fast! so if a beginner can win I don't see it been a big issue?

Col · #31 14-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450kid

Since when did 540 class become old has beens class or newbie class?

540 has always been a beginner class at YORCC. It is only recently that faster drivers have started racing in it.

Mike2222 · #32 15-01-2013

Er... Anyone remember a Chris Wilson in the 540 class. He was no beginner.
That was in the early nineties. It has always been the recommended class
for beginners to start in, but not restricted to them.

johnboy · #33 15-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike2222

Er... Anyone remember a Chris Wilson in the 540 class. He was no beginner.
That was in the early nineties. It has always been the recommended class
for beginners to start in, but not restricted to them.

Yes we know that's its not purely for beginners but is aimed to help the beginner get into racing. The class has lost it's way by allowing brushless that's my opinion. It needs a rethink as does mod racing.

farmboy · #34 15-01-2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnboy

Im glad this thread has appeared. This class is aimed at the beginner/kids and the old lads but watching of late the power these cars have is too much for most in the class. Its got out of control with people ramping the timing up messing with boost ect. Where has the level playing field of the tamiya sport tuned and saturn 20t days gone?

I think this class should have stayed brushed with some rules to keep the costs down this way beginners would have a chance to learn how to race correctly before tackling faster brushless and promote cheaper closer racing.

Before anyone says about lipo performance now you can buy lipos cheap at a max of 40c not producing massive amounts of power. This will ensure motors dont burn out fast and the average price of this kind of lipo is around £40 not £90 like the higher c rating.

Motor should be the saturn 20t at £8 and for a seasons racing if you ended up using 2 or 3 its cost at max £24.

If the class was still brushed then i would say a controlled ESC to be used IE the one that Brett suggested again to keep costs down and stop people buying power advantage.

When i started out this class was Brilliant close racing quite quick but not out of control like now. The committee at York have missed a trick here in keeping this class from getting out of hand and keeping it beginner friendly.

I agree with all the above!

450kid · #35 15-01-2013

If u don't 540 class john it dunt mater anyway!

.

footey · #36 15-01-2013

simple way to solve this problem and a easy way to check it is only use brushed sealed can motors SIMPLE also cheap 2nd hand brushed esc must be so cheap now and motors are 8 quid

ill also say i run in this heat sometimes and 1 of the big advantages is the cost tyres last so long its unreal and i was winning it and was running saturn 20t motor no fancy brushless

johnboy · #37 15-01-2013

Shane you don't need second hand esc when a new one costs 15 pound and its a decent spec

keenbutkrap · #38 15-01-2013

earlier in the thread it was suggested that buying a good motor was against the spirit is turning up the boost not the same the people who defend something tend to be the people who use it if a boosted 17.5 is as fast as a mod it should run against a mod the website says 540 a slower pace but its not people have boosted more and more to gain an advantage that a good driver may gain round the corners only to get passed down the straight faster cars doesnt make for better racing if all the cars are of a similar speed it makes it about driving

AC199 · #39 15-01-2013

Guys, see my post in the other thread. No matter what you think, it wont get past the committee, so no point even suggesting it.

I'd love 540 to be purely sealed can again, i'd even go as far as to limit gearing as well. Set a maximum final drive ratio, and while the normal 3 people are building the track, get some scrutineering done as well. If we're going to have rules, get them enforced.

AC