2008 Off road, Lipo

[Chrislong]

The X-6 was designed for 4+2 cells and for stick LIPO pack accross the chassis, the battery bar turns over and is shaped specifically for the LIPO cells. The weight of LIPO is less, so there is no issue with the weight being wide - and we can use lead to bring the weight forward if required.

As for the X-5 - it will be easy for us (im talking personally) to adjust the chassis with dremel and re-drill for straps to hold the saddle LIPO packs. Changing the car to a 3+3 config but seeing that LIPO is much lighter, we would add lead to bring the balance back.

I think the issue is with the nominal rated voltage being higher than cells.

I would like LIPO to be accepted and intigrated into the same classes as NIMPH's, but its all down to the manufacturers submitting them, us attending the AGM and voting them in, and the BRCA EB accepting them - for which to do I guess EFRA and ROAR would have to do the same so it is a sweeping change for the class's internationally.

[mark christopher]

this is a comment i make all the time to the racers in the scale ic class.
WE are the BRCA and WE can make rules without the rest.
is the eb not an UK body?(qenuine question)
bikes already use them in the brca, without the aproval of the EB, which baffles me some what when everyone else in the tc/buggy world says they have to be EP aporoved etc!

chris id like some nimphs to, where can i get em round our area?

[vader]

badger

[modelimages]

got to get over a couple of problems first, first one is voltage 2 cell lipo is 7.4v bit of an advantage over 7.2v from the nimh so you couldn't really run both types of battery together and the next problem is energy we are barely keeping the speedo's and motors together for 5 minutes using 4200 at 7.2v so adding more volts and runtime equals more heat to get rid of.

and the final point is safety, they do go bang and do so in a big way, both in use and whilst being charged 130 drivers at a national = at least one bang!

i can see it coming but not next year

[PaulRotheram]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

saddle packs will be available, the only cars are the ones with a non stick/sadle layout, nimh would still be legal or cars change to suit.

no tc is is designed to run 5 cells but they are!!

its not a fact of, will they fit, its will they work?

If i fitted lipos to the back of my bj4, i gurantee you the car would not handle what so ever, the same goes for other cars that rely on the weight over the rear of the cars to give the traction needed such as yokomo, tamiya, losi, hotbodies, aero and many more.
I've seen cars run at my local with lipos, and they look like crap on the track, they compare to the speed of my own car.. with me running brushed equipment also! the only advantage i see is only needing one lipo pack.

Theres a reason why drivers add extra weight in the back of their 2wd cars.. (b4) taking away alot of the weight would make it alot worse from my view.

I'm happy with the way things are, more runs through the day which is great as we only run 5 minutes, if id turn up to a national and be confronted with a format of 3 runs and a final (longer finals) i'd not even bother as it'd not be worth the trip.

Racing is lazy enough as it is due to brushless, cells that dont need much maintinance and spektrum radio equipment has made even little things such as crystal changes redundant..

Why is there a need of a big change for lighter cells, when they perform the same (speed wise), and make the car handle worse (in offroad).

[Cockerill]

I understand what your saying Paul but you cannot seriously expect to half the weight of the heaviest component and expect the car to handle the same without any set-up changes and/or car changes.

In touring cars they have lost a cell (70g) and the cars are going as quick, with less wear and improved handling.

In off-road 5 cells can be as quick if not quicker than 6 cells in 2wd.

By using Lipo we can reduce the minimum weight, reduce wear and tear, possibly even tyre wear.

Isn't light right?

My personal thoughts on Lipo for 2008 are that it won't happen, we currently have no rules for them. We had brushless rules 1 or 2 years before they became mainstream, and yet another year before thy came legal.

[PaulRotheram]

I know they will need setting up different for sure, but ive seen the cars in action, and even tried one or two and they are not right.

I may be in the minority, i may not.. however it's my opinion, but even if lipos are introduced things will still be the same. The people at the top will still be there, they will most likely have more than one pack which is one of the few advantages the lipos give, they will still use 3-4 sets of tyres through a day for the edge..
It just seems alot of effort for very little gain, at least brushless has prooved useful and moving racing forward.

[Chrislong]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

this is a comment i make all the time to the racers in the scale ic class.
WE are the BRCA and WE can make rules without the rest.
is the eb not an UK body?(qenuine question)
bikes already use them in the brca, without the aproval of the EB, which baffles me some what when everyone else in the tc/buggy world says they have to be EP aporoved etc!

chris id like some nimphs to, where can i get em round our area?

Hi Mark, The EB is the Electronic Board, they accept submissions from companies for approval, write approval lists and test the equipment for abiding by the rules. The EB is part of the BRCA, I am sure there is some info on the BRCA website about why it was formed - but in a nutshell, the EB writes one list which then covers 1/12, 1/10 OR, 1/10 TC, etc, and so each class don't need to go writting independent lists... The EB is basically one man, probably the only man worthy of such a task too - Paul Worsley.

Contact details on BRCA website for him, he is good at clearing up any questions regarding technicallities of things, and will get a far more certain answer than us lot on the forum

NIMPHS They're all over the place Mark, just go over and ask...

Paul - although what you say is true, those cars were ones racing on NIMPHS and then put LIPO in for a play (Barry Weldon? Chris Evison?), therefore the car unchanged. If we were to switch to LIPO fulltime, then we'd be using more lead (a good thing), using softer suspension and changing the setup a lot more to suit.

Chris

[PaulRotheram]

nope, neither of them drivers.. however who it is is irrelevent.

I cant see using more lead as being a good thing, as we would be back to where we are now.. maybe not as much but not far off either.

No one has actually shown a worthy benefit of changing to lipo from our current situation (what is actually wrong with the current set up.. anyone???), so far i only see them as being lighter and needing less of them (however still expensive at £75 a pop).

Can some one give me a good reason for the effort to change over to lipo from our current situation?

The outcome dosnt matter for me, i go with the flow, but i'm interested to know why we should change.

[DCM]

The bikes use them as they voted not to use the EB's homologation list for cells.... simple as that, that is what that section voted.

Yes, you are the BRCA, but for a rule change, you must wait till the AGM, propose a change, get it seconded and hope there is a lot of like minded people to help you vote it through. Otherwise, the EB is group of people voted into certain positions to ensure motors and batteries conform to the given rules that we have voted through.

As for 'ALL CARS' can use Lipo..... yes and no, at the moment, where the weight of a car is set so that it conforms with cell weight too, it means you can ballast out the 'inbalance' that running a LiPo pack induces..... when the class weights drop to a LiPo level, then cars will have to be redesigned to obtain an optimum balance front to rear, left to right.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by modelimages

got to get over a couple of problems first, first one is voltage 2 cell lipo is 7.4v bit of an advantage over 7.2v from the nimh so you couldn't really run both types of battery together and the next problem is energy we are barely keeping the speedo's and motors together for 5 minutes using 4200 at 7.2v so adding more volts and runtime equals more heat to get rid of.

and the final point is safety, they do go bang and do so in a big way, both in use and whilst being charged 130 drivers at a national = at least one bang!

i can see it coming but not next year

ok and a higher voltage (all be it .2volt) does what to amps for the same wattage draw?
at biws in 6 cell touring car lipo and nimh ran side by side lipo took one win, (all cars to same weight) the advantage is in no loss of performance and easier charging.

if miss used they do go bang yes, but so does any form of power cell. to date only nimh has cost one racer a very badly injured eye and another not so good, lipo has non documanted. simply dont miss use em (corectly charge and dont go below 6 volts) and there safe, how many carry em in your pocket? (mobile phone)
to say they go bang and plead ignorance to any other cell being a danger is very poor knowledge!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Hi Mark, The EB is the Electronic Board, they accept submissions from companies for approval, write approval lists and test the equipment for abiding by the rules. The EB is part of the BRCA, I am sure there is some info on the BRCA website about why it was formed - but in a nutshell, the EB writes one list which then covers 1/12, 1/10 OR, 1/10 TC, etc, and so each class don't need to go writting independent lists... The EB is basically one man, probably the only man worthy of such a task too - Paul Worsley.

Contact details on BRCA website for him, he is good at clearing up any questions regarding technicallities of things, and will get a far more certain answer than us lot on the forum

NIMPHS They're all over the place Mark, just go over and ask...

Paul - although what you say is true, those cars were ones racing on NIMPHS and then put LIPO in for a play (Barry Weldon? Chris Evison?), therefore the car unchanged. If we were to switch to LIPO fulltime, then we'd be using more lead (a good thing), using softer suspension and changing the setup a lot more to suit.

Chris

i know my point was the bikes dont run to eb rules/regs, so other could

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

nope, neither of them drivers.. however who it is is irrelevent.

I cant see using more lead as being a good thing, as we would be back to where we are now.. maybe not as much but not far off either.

No one has actually shown a worthy benefit of changing to lipo from our current situation (what is actually wrong with the current set up.. anyone???), so far i only see them as being lighter and needing less of them (however still expensive at £75 a pop).

Can some one give me a good reason for the effort to change over to lipo from our current situation?

The outcome dosnt matter for me, i go with the flow, but i'm interested to know why we should change.

Paul apreciate you opinion its why i started this thread.

my views on benifits, lighter, less packs reguired, no drop of in perfomance from 1st to over 100th charge, cool and recharge same day no discharging cycling etc, just top em up. charge em week before and there ready to race, just as safe if used correctly

[burgie]

Originally Posted by Chrislong

Paul - although what you say is true, those cars were ones racing on NIMPHS and then put LIPO in for a play (Barry Weldon? Chris Evison?), therefore the car unchanged. If we were to switch to LIPO fulltime, then we'd be using more lead (a good thing), using softer suspension and changing the setup a lot more to suit.

Chris

Hi Chris - the car's Paul is referring to are mine and Craig Magee's.

Now, with no disrespect to craig, but neither of us are the greatest drivers, just average club racers really I suppose. (although craig is better than me! )

I haven't altered my car' setup apart from sticking extra weight down the middle (200g's) and backed the slipper off.

If the cars (especially mine) were setup properly to run Li-po's (or nimih for that matter!) then the difference in handling would be minimal I am sure. Infact as the extra weight can be added pretty much just where you want it, then the handling would probably be better. My car is conservatively geared to be quick enough for me - it could be faster, but not with me behind the sticks.

The main advantage Li-Po has over nimih is the constant performance and overall cheapness. £80 will buy two packs of Li-Po's that looked after properly (i.e. balance charged) should last over 2 years, and to me, that's cheap performance - they are a simple way to increase performance. Pauls car may be quick with brushed equipment, but mine is cheaper to keep going fast! No equalizing equipment, no dischargers needed and relatively cheap chargers - t's all good to me.

For all those who say that if it ain't broke don't fix it is a very short sighted view to take. As a hobby we need to embrace change and move forwards with it so that we are not left lagging behind in 5-10 years time. If we had ignored brushless systems three years ago, we wouldn't be reaping the rewards of them now, so let's not ignore Li-Po's now and enjoy the benefits they will bring to the hobby in the future.

[DanW]

Cars would need re-designing to get the handling right.

From what i've seen a 2WD off road car with lipo and brushless has an uncontrolable power to weight ratio.

With a much lighter car you need less torque to get it moving and less power to keep it moving... so less powerful motors would be the key to perfomance. Less power = less wear and tear.

The traditional 2WD buggy design with motor hanging out back would be finished, just not enough weight infront of the rear axle to keep balanced, so would start a big move to mid motor cars.

One advantage of LiPo maybe the environemt? i don't know?

Nicads and Nimhs are fairly nasty things and don't do mother nature any favours - are lipos less nasty?

[PaulRotheram]

My cars are actually quite cheap to keep going.. my motors last a long time between rebrushes being v2 type, my cells are discharged and equalised every month or so depending when i remember, I leave them mid week as the charge is left in them after my previous races.

I was reffering to craigs B4, and mr larkins, both looked uneasy to handle without extra weight.. however with the added weight they looked to be like a regular b4, lipo powered.. but then it's back to where we are now.. with just a change in batterys.

I'm asking is it really worth changing everything for something we will be similar to now, just powered by a different type of cell?
time and effort needs to be considered, and then other people in the world.. if we changed to LIPO, and EFRA didnt.. would our drivers want to change due to the fact they would need to be running the current sub c cells to run at euros and the worlds?

Ease of use and cheap maintinance already exsists, this is why I don't understand what benefits lipo would really give. Some people do discharge and equalise all the time.. but i know pleanty of people who also dont and take the same route as my self and get along fine.
My cells have been having this treatment since november, that's near 8 months and i'm yet to notice a difference in performance.

Where are the two packs of lipos for £80 advertised? I've looked around (briefly i must say) and have found the gold orion one for £75 for one pack, then on top of that i'd need a new charger, and then a second battery as it seems they need to cool down before i can re use them.

With this route i'd in spending close to £250 to get me going.

However as said.. if lipo was introduced i'd follow suit.. but I can't see any benefits as of yet, unlike brushless where no skimming, no brushes and no lathe is really appealing!

[PaulRotheram]

A quick thought.. as im in the trade industry, it seems lipos are becoming more involved with tools such as cordless drills etc, maybe the main manufacturers (outside of racing) who currently produce the sub c cell could have an influjence on our racing if they switch over to lipos full time.

The construction industry is a hell of a bigger scene than RC, and power is always needed.. so maybe lipos is the future in some sence..

[DCM]

I find it hard to believe that the cell matchers, the big ones, wont find a way of increasing performance and character matching of cells, then we are back to where we are.

IB42's have been no problem.

LiPo, once they start getting pushed hard have a similar life span as a normal cell too.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

I find it hard to believe that the cell matchers, the big ones, wont find a way of increasing performance and character matching of cells, then we are back to where we are.

IB42's have been no problem.

LiPo, once they start getting pushed hard have a similar life span as a normal cell too.

where is that info from?
trakpower have at least one lipo thats been charged over 100 time at ten amps and its still not lost any performance, nimh would have done for definate!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

My cars are actually quite cheap to keep going.. my motors last a long time between rebrushes being v2 type, my cells are discharged and equalised every month or so depending when i remember, I leave them mid week as the charge is left in them after my previous races.

I was reffering to craigs B4, and mr larkins, both looked uneasy to handle without extra weight.. however with the added weight they looked to be like a regular b4, lipo powered.. but then it's back to where we are now.. with just a change in batterys.

I'm asking is it really worth changing everything for something we will be similar to now, just powered by a different type of cell?
time and effort needs to be considered, and then other people in the world.. if we changed to LIPO, and EFRA didnt.. would our drivers want to change due to the fact they would need to be running the current sub c cells to run at euros and the worlds?

Ease of use and cheap maintinance already exsists, this is why I don't understand what benefits lipo would really give. Some people do discharge and equalise all the time.. but i know pleanty of people who also dont and take the same route as my self and get along fine.
My cells have been having this treatment since november, that's near 8 months and i'm yet to notice a difference in performance.

Where are the two packs of lipos for £80 advertised? I've looked around (briefly i must say) and have found the gold orion one for £75 for one pack, then on top of that i'd need a new charger, and then a second battery as it seems they need to cool down before i can re use them.

With this route i'd in spending close to £250 to get me going.

However as said.. if lipo was introduced i'd follow suit.. but I can't see any benefits as of yet, unlike brushless where no skimming, no brushes and no lathe is really appealing!

a charger can be had for £50 and to be honest there is no difference between my £50 one and my £150 (both do lipo) Jimmys trackpower lipo review shows the charger i have and recomend.

i ran one pack in tc for a full meeting by the time i had marshalled it was cool, they dont get as hot as nimh and you oly have to top them up not charge them from flat, though i would say two is or would be the racers choice.

we seem to add weight to b4's even when there over weight,

my sugestion would be keep the weight lmits as they are now, allow lipo to run along side nimh, as paul has said the top guys will still be at the top, no matter what
to me nimh will still be there, but give racers the choice, even if its a feeder into regionals