The future of 2wd offroad - Your opinons..

[PaulRotheram]

This is an open debate to see what users opinions of 2wds offroads future will have and the implications that will or may have.
Recently we have seen schumacher have various forms of an inboard motor 2wd, which as pictures from silverstone show, could be near a production model.

Xray have just announced they are releasing their XB4 2WD, which the same as the schumacher is a 2wd front end bolted on to their current 4wd rear end.

And the DB1 from rudebits plus the TM2 both giving good showings already.

So with new models on the horizon, what is your opinion on 2wds future?

The way I currently see it, from an early perspective - the possibility of needing three different 2wds is quite high.
The current mid motor for low to high grip
A rear motor for dirt / clay tracks and very low grip conditions
And the new inboard motor for very high grip conditions.

The 4wd class is less populated than 2wd, as current preferences are swayed to running 2wd as most competitive drivers will run that class.
Will the prospect of possibly needing two or three 2wds models sway people away from 4wd even more?

Will the possible need of two, or even three 2wd models be a reality for 2014?

[mintzant]

It's a big question...
I think that all discussion it's going to be around the position of motor.
My opinion it's that the future in 2wd and 4wd it's the new material and new generation battery...
We can see the old but always new associated b4!!!!
So many years but finaly the same car.
The differences ... New tires, new big bore shocks, new lexan, new..., new... But same chassis and same motor position...
Something difference we can see from new schumacher 2wd, this one in word champion with the belt drive...

[450kid]

If everyone is going 2wd why not run separate classes mid and rear motor?

[adey]

Maybe we will see 2wd buggys with a optional chassis layout. We already have cars that can be built in rear or mid motor. Maybe as an addition to that we will see cars that can be built in rear, mid or mid forward motor by design. I do think that shorty lipos will be the basis for cars layouts in the future though.

[Origineelreclamebord]

The future of 2WD... It depends a lot on what the tracks are like I suppose. It seems smooth/flat, big, demanding jumps (a lot of them too) and high grip are the trend, and as such we see more cars that are well adapted to that. Particularly big venues are being maintained meticulously, and since the high level drivers don't visit small venues as often it's no wonder more and more brands develop a car suited to those high grip conditions.

As long as the trend continues of making buggy racing touring car driving with jumps, we'll see more of these cars about I can even imagine we'll start seeing new geometry for the cars and more emphasis on aerodynamics (which includes shocks and suspension, not just the bodyshell).

Just my opinion about buggy racing in general, I'd rather see the development the other way around. The lower speeds of driving on low-medium bite with easy jumps give a lot of benefits:

- It's safer for marshals.
- It's cheaper because your car breaks down less easily.
- The gaps between cars will be smaller (in distance), making it more thrilling to watch.
- Overtaking is easier because you have less distance to gain to your opponent to overtake.
- You're fighting each other instead of grip roll and the right flow through a jump section.
- (Close) racing becomes easier for lower level drivers because you don't need ninja reflexes - plus I think losing the rear end won't cost as much time as grip rolling.
- Contact between cars results in less drama.

That said, the most important thing for will remain to be the fun factor and atmosphere at the trackside, and that's highly enjoyable with the buggy crowd!

[dicky14]

MMMMM, this is going to be an interesting thread, i own all 3 motor layout and personally my mid motor car is the most consistant out of the 3, but the mid inboard (tm2) gives a much better feel and can be driven harder, resulting in faster laps, not necesarraly cleaner laps because of the corner speed, but my driving is addapting to the car and the consistency is getting there.
As for 3 classes of 2wd, yeh bring it on, because us older guys that used to race rear motor will probably all race that class because of the nostalgia aspect, lol

[dicky14]

just another thought, maybe there should be a 13.5 class for buggies on blinky, maybe that would liven things up with close racing etc

[tony12795]

At the end of the Day it's all about COSTS and people with the most money or don't pay for their racing (Team Drivers) will have every type of car that's available to them and use whats suitable for that track including weather conditions and why not, its what I would do.

Is this why controlled tyres were brought into the rules to stop people having every type of tyre on the market and to save costs....?

My 50p worth and suggestion is at BRCA sanction events the chassis is marked (like the worlds) and that chassis can only be run at that event, this at least stops people switching cars during an event so for instance if it rains or its slippy in the morning the car chosen for high grip will not work so well and vice versa. Just a thought!

[Pacman]

What concerns me more is that the inboard motored cars with weight pushed forward for handling rather than traction seem to be more sensitive to tire wear. As such, not only will people have to buy 3 chassis layouts, but more tires, especially on high grip surfaces.

Perhaps given that most major events have control tyres, we should choose control tyres that favour 2wd's set-up for high traction rather than handling?

I can't see that being popular with Schumacher through!

[TARTMAN]

bin 2wd and go 4wd then...........

I think it should be a simple thing.....

2wd is 2wd....... no matter what the layout, its up to the driver/owner of said 2wd to decide what suits best.

BUT

The "choose" a chassis/car at the start of the meeting and that's the one you drive regardless is a good idea, to stop the things mentioned above.

Personally I run 4wd mainly. But in 2wd I generally have one buggy so does not matter to me.

The top drivers, on whatever track and conditions will drive them well and do well regardless.

The normal drivers with spare dosh will keep on buying what the trend is and change frequently.

Normal drivers with out the spare dosh or just in it for the fun and challenge will buy what they want and race it. keeping the cost down for whatever reason.

There are as many choices as there are different drivers/needs so as long as people continue to race, the rules are not made to anal as to deter the club fun racer, then 2wd and 4wd will continue and choices will be made.

I hope the "rules" and classes are not complicated to deter people. like 3 classes for 2wd, then 4wd, then a blinky class as well. just gets to much.

2wd

4wd

SC

Stadium

Done.................. off road wise.

[AfroP]

I cant see people other than team drivers and those that are made of money running 3 2wd cars.
I also dont see 1 manufacturer making the 3 different motor position cars(maybe Schumacher would)

If somebody wanted to run 3 2wd's and can afford the time and money to build, test, setup, and upgrade all 3 then I say more fool them. especially when 3 different motor layouts require slightly different driving styles.
I for one would rather concentrate on 1 car that has an option for rear or mid motor and get that 1 car right.

[Cream]

I'd imagine it will only effect the top end guys. I'm of the cannon fodder variety. I doubt it will make much difference no matter what are I drive.
If people are that good that a 10th of a second is going to make a difference. I guess most of them are going to have sponsors.
The best drivers are always going to have the best gear, but the bulk of their speed comes from their ability not the car they are driving.

If you start splitting groups, It will either kill the sport or kill off innovation.

[DCM]

Hmm, interesting topic but there are one or two things omitted.

Most people won't want to have more than one car
People will buy the car they like the most
Most people really won't gain any significant advantage over chassis layouts.

Paul, I really think it will come down to where and on what you race rather than people thinking they need to have all three chassis's, just like when mid-motor took over, a majority converted from rear to mid rather than keeping both.

[PaulRotheram]

The thing is, out of the national scene id say ( being generous here ) 5-10 drivers get their equipment for free. Then we have the drivers with discounted equipment - even that isnt a huge discounted price. So the majority of the competitive scene would have to get a minimum of two 2wd models to deal with low grip, regular grip and the very high grip.

This then filters down to the regional scene. A few drivers will have different models, then others wanting to be competitive will follow suite.

Would drivers be willing to stand at the agm to propose stickering chassis at sanctioned events, or allow the use of multiple chassis to be used at a single event, which would mean youd need two - three cars for 2wds including all electronics, then a 4wd with equipment.

With the economy how it is, would this drive away drivers from the competitive scene or is it not an issue at all?

These are general thoughts and I thought a general discussion over it would be interesting.

[FrogPrince82]

+1 - But I was shot down for suggesting this on another thread

I also think there is merit in the idea of possibly running set turn motor, especially for the lower age groups and maybe up to regionals too. Mainly for the benefits of cost, safety and improving racing.

Originally Posted by tony12795

At the end of the Day it's all about COSTS and people with the most money or don't pay for their racing (Team Drivers) will have every type of car that's available to them and use whats suitable for that track including weather conditions and why not, its what I would do.

Is this why controlled tyres were brought into the rules to stop people having every type of tyre on the market and to save costs....?

My 50p worth and suggestion is at BRCA sanction events the chassis is marked (like the worlds) and that chassis can only be run at that event, this at least stops people switching cars during an event so for instance if it rains or its slippy in the morning the car chosen for high grip will not work so well and vice versa. Just a thought!

[Cream]

Originally Posted by PaulRotheram

The thing is, out of the national scene id say ( being generous here ) 5-10 drivers get their equipment for free. Then we have the drivers with discounted equipment - even that isnt a huge discounted price. So the majority of the competitive scene would have to get a minimum of two 2wd models to deal with low grip, regular grip and the very high grip.

This then filters down to the regional scene. A few drivers will have different models, then others wanting to be competitive will follow suite.

Would drivers be willing to stand at the agm to propose stickering chassis at sanctioned events, or allow the use of multiple chassis to be used at a single event, which would mean youd need two - three cars for 2wds including all electronics, then a 4wd with equipment.

With the economy how it is, would this drive away drivers from the competitive scene or is it not an issue at all?

These are general thoughts and I thought a general discussion over it would be interesting.

It won't happen for the very reason you have posted above, The cost of running multiple cars is way to much for most drivers.
It's only going to bother those that are looking for that 10th of a second, and even that is debatable compared to learning and setting your car up properly.

[PaulRotheram]

Its already happening! Ive seen numerous drivers with images of three seperate cars ready to go, including people at our club! People will do it, are doing it and will consider it even more to do so.

[SlowOne]

Whenever technology changes, there is a period of shaking out until things settle at a new level. Although I no longer race the class, my view is that you can either sit back and enjoy the ride until the train reaches its destination, or you can put the train back in the siding by changing the rules.

I gave up on 2WD Off-Road because the tracks became launch ramps and my inability to control a car accurately in flight led to too much damage, and too many days when my driving was no longer any fun. To that end I agree with Origineel on what the class needs to get back to its roots as a lot of fun, rewarding of driving skill and not a horsepower or battery war.

By staying on the train and only making a move once it reaches its destination you invest when the answer is clear and in the meantime update as you see fit. The danger here is that as each car suits different tracks, it might never truly settle down.

By changing the rules you define the class forever, just as the 'solid rear axle' rule did for 12th cars. Basically, 2WD Off Road and 12th On-Road cars remained basically unchanged since the RC10 and the RC12L. The 2WD Off-Rod car remained so by convention, the 12th car by rule-setting.

To put the train back in the siding a rule could be passed that said something like "the drive motor must at least (say) 20mm behind a line drawn between the centrelines of the rear wheel bearings. The drive motor must be centered within (say) 15mm of the centreline of the chassis." There may be other definitions required, but my point is that be simply defining where the drive motor is to be positioned the train can be parked... immobilised.

In my view, 2WD has no future that is reflective of its attraction to those wanting to race a class where costs are low, and winning is a reward for good driving, whilst this is going on. It might be a long wait for this to shake out, and what damage might be done to participating numbers in that time. Whilst it will need a lot of lobbying, and some skill in constructing, I would propose a rule to put the motor back in the back and get on with the job of promoting a class that is one of RC's best kept secrets. Just my thoughts...

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

I would propose a rule to put the motor back in the back and get on with the job of promoting a class that is one of RC's best kept secrets. Just my thoughts...

which would make probably 80% of uk racers cars illegal!

[PaulRotheram]

Similar to the rule change to supastox which makes alot of escs redundant.. anything is possible!