Clarifications to the GT12 Rules

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

Well I am amazed to read you guys all talking about dropping the 21.5 2s as this is almost the only setup which is run at our club also the Chippenham Winter Indoor Championship as around 20 drivers running the Superstox and I am sure nearly all of them have converted to the 2s system because of issues running 13.5.
Going forward the rules need to be sorted, worrying about body shells is small fry compared the mess that will be caused by changing the entire electrics of the car.. can we please get the core sorted.

im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.
id be interested to see how many of your racers run 0deg motor timing and how you police it though. my local club i have not heard of any 1s issue unles your missguided as to what to run/do

[LongRat]

Originally Posted by SlowOne

For the same reason you are not allowed to use Sports shells at a TC race, saloon shells in 8th Track F1, Indy cars in the F1 class - this class is for GT cars currently running in British and FIA GT classes.

The class is not for the chassis with any shell, it is for GT cars running chassis conforming to those rules. There are classes for Mk1 Escorts and all the other shells Kamtec offer, so if you want to run a shell there is probably a class for it. More shells will be available in the months to come for GT12, so hopefully there will be one that takes your fancy. HTH

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.

[LongRat]

I would also back up Shane on his point. It really is difficult to see where 1 cell wins out. It costs more, with a booster the set up is more complex, the cell is pushed harder, there is a smaller selection of compatible electronics and there are a lot more documented reliability issues running powerful servos, PTs etc. While I know a couple of voices are not going to change the views of the majority, I really struggle to understand why 1 cell is so favoured.

[RCMadShane]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.

Originally Posted by mark christopher

id be interested to see how many of your racers run 0deg motor timing and how you police it though. my local club i have not heard of any 1s issue unles your missguided as to what to run/do

This is not good… Clubs need to stay close to whatever the BRCA rule book decides. We had a massive problem because the GT12 rules were not sorted so many of our guys went in all different directions.. Then when the winter series started most of the drivers had to go out and buy what we thought was going to be the BRCA regulation.. Which in our ears was
13.5 1s Timed ---- OR ---- 21.5 2s Blinky
The 21.5 must have no motor timing and a number of motors were supposedly put forward which is what we are using… This is easily policed.. Blinky is what it says… your speedo Blinks.. to be honest it is obvious if you have a cheater
Where is it documented what the “National Class” is you say “the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class” I thought that the 2s was part of the BRCA rules so therefore is a National class.
I am sure the failure to sort this could cause serious issues with the class and could be quite damaging to its future..

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by LongRat

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.

odd how off road uses the same description of body shell, yet thats not suffering, the class is gt, and shells need to be approved, ginetta and aston shells are on the way. but escort would not be approved

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RCMadShane

This is not good… Clubs need to stay close to whatever the BRCA rule book decides. We had a massive problem because the GT12 rules were not sorted so many of our guys went in all different directions.. Then when the winter series started most of the drivers had to go out and buy what we thought was going to be the BRCA regulation.. Which in our ears was
13.5 1s Timed ---- OR ---- 21.5 2s Blinky
The 21.5 must have no motor timing and a number of motors were supposedly put forward which is what we are using… This is easily policed.. Blinky is what it says… your speedo Blinks.. to be honest it is obvious if you have a cheater
Where is it documented what the “National Class” is you say “the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class” I thought that the 2s was part of the BRCA rules so therefore is a National class.
I am sure the failure to sort this could cause serious issues with the class and could be quite damaging to its future..

hmmm this is my point

im not sure when winter serries start in your area but the GT rules were published around the 6/12 http://rcracechat.com/vb/showthread....-clarification

this is taken from the 12gt entry
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=cont...onbridge/17806


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level.


2s 21.5 has never been a national class, as i said some people have been confused or missinformed, hence my reason to get rid of 21.5 rules, clubs can do thier own thing. its sshould have been 1s only from the start, the cheap combos work well and robin schumacher puts his car in national a finals, you just need to make sure you fit a suitable servo, £130 sees you with 1s lipo/speedo/motor and suitable servo. you just need the correct info.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by LongRat

I would also back up Shane on his point. It really is difficult to see where 1 cell wins out. It costs more, with a booster the set up is more complex, the cell is pushed harder, there is a smaller selection of compatible electronics and there are a lot more documented reliability issues running powerful servos, PTs etc. While I know a couple of voices are not going to change the views of the majority, I really struggle to understand why 1 cell is so favoured.

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

[f888fhw]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.

[Dave Dodd]

Originally Posted by f888fhw

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.

the brca rules are there only for national events and a guide for clubs, clubs can if they wish do anything they like so long as there members are happy.

As this was the first year gt12 had its own rules, i think 2s was included just to help clubs get an idea of what to do.

So your club if running 2s should carry on, if there is a healthy number of racers doing the same.

we decided at an early stage that we would follow the rules as closely as possible but allowing 1s, 2s & g2 to run side by side, which means visitors can come along from other clubs knowing they will fit in.

[Dave Dodd]

Originally Posted by Robocop

Think the only thing i want gone is reverse,how many times have you passed a car that has reverse for it to shoot out and hit you ??

totally agree, it should be banned from nationals.

clubs night fair enough, though annoying for marshals.

[f888fhw]

Originally Posted by Dave Dodd

the brca rules are there only for national events and a guide for clubs, clubs can if they wish do anything they like so long as there members are happy.

As this was the first year gt12 had its own rules, i think 2s was included just to help clubs get an idea of what to do.

So your club if running 2s should carry on, if there is a healthy number of racers doing the same.

we decided at an early stage that we would follow the rules as closely as possible but allowing 1s, 2s & g2 to run side by side, which means visitors can come along from other clubs knowing they will fit in.

From what i have been told one of my clubs is going to run exactly to BRCA rules. So if i still want to race im going to have to fork out £130 - £170 to carry on racing.

£90 for the ESC, motor, and core single cell.

£40 - 80 for additional cells.

Is this still just a proposal? or is the 21.5 removed from the rules now?

For me the timing thing is not a problem, it is as quick to show you are running blinky on the esc as it is to show the end bell is set @ 0.

[qatmix]

You could race touring cars? Much less hassle and just as cheap.

[RCMadShane]

Sorry guys I don’t know what the hell is going on.. This is the best way to kill a class before its properly established!!!!

This is the current rules on the BRCA website:…
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572
and it states...........
3 Definition of Brushless Motor
3.1 13.5 brushless - Any motor listed in any of the Electric Board Homologation List for Brushless Spec Motors (13.5) as updated from time to time.
3.2 21.5 brushless - Any motors listed in Appendix 3 to these Rules

Appendix Three – 21.5 motors allowed – (Construction) Rule 3.2
21.5t motors which have locked or fixed mechanical timing (ideally from the EB list) are suggested. For example:
HobbyWing / Xerun “Stock” 2.15t (part number 90040150/1)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V2 21.5t (Part Number SPF21V2)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V3 21.5t (Part Number SP00008)
Novak SS Pro 21.5t (Part Number 3421)
Losi Xcelron 21.5t (Part Number LOSB9409)
The Corally Pro Red motor is specifically excluded. If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees.
(Intent – that the 21.5 motors are not used with mechanical timing advanced as this will give a performance advantage over the 13.5/1S combinations. It is intended that use of 2S cells simplifies installation, not gives a performance advantage.)
So to be messing around now is just taking the “p” people are buying kits for Christmas presents and they could end up with rubbish

[sosidge]

The 2s/21.5 rule should never have been put in the book. It was well intentioned, no doubt about that, but all it has done is cause confusion - and certainly not an equivalency. Removing them going forward is the right decision.

If you read the rulebook in full, you will see that 21.5 is a "suggested" rule for club racing and NOT a legal powerplant at the BRCA nationals. Never has been.

Clubs, as ever, are free to choose their classes.

I do believe there is a place for a 2s powerplant in the class, and certainly at club level - most people I know that have run both prefer the 2s option because there is less hassle with the electrics. 2s/21.5 does seem faster than the "equivalent" 1s/13.5 which is a potential issue, although at club level I suspect that the greater accessibility to racers of 2s/21.5 is more important than giving racers the chance to run at a National without changing parts on their car.

So... buy what is required for the racing you want to do... for BRCA Nationals, it's 13.5/1s, for club, it could be something completely different.

[LongRat]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

Indeed, somewhat more. I run the Hobbywing sensorless setup, £60 for motor and ESC and an £11 2S LiPo. Any servo will work.
The main thing is that it will be so much less stressed on 2S. Although the 1S and 2S cars are similarly paced, 1S systems are pushing about twice the current which heats up motors and ESCs and kills cells quicker. I wouldn't be comfortable running one pack for a whole meeting on 1S which is my current practice. I am not arguing that it doesn't work, but it is wrong to exclude 2S as a confusion. Newcomers generally don't race at National meetings, nobody is getting confused about anything. The fact is, 1S should never have been started and from a purely technical point of view, it is 1S that should be banned and 2S only allowed if there's some sort of confusion to be avoided.

[RogerM]

Oh dear, SOMETHING needs to happen as since the beggining of GT12 I've wanted to race this class, especially at my local club. However in order for me, and many many many many others I suspect, to take the plunge there needs to be a very clearly stated set of totally unambegious rules.

This is crazy! Please for your own sake, and that of the clubs, sort this mess out! I currently would rather do a 100 mile round trip to race a different class than go to a club less than 4 miles from my house to run GT12 as I KNOW whatever I buy will be the wrong damn thing in a few months time.

The class looks great fun, should be super close racing ... please don't kill it!!

[RCMadShane]

LOL.. LongRat that’s fighting talk :-)

But to be honest I thought the 12th pan car was the 1s system.. This is a new class so time for a change.. Also…. is it not aimed for the new young drivers? It needs to be cheep and easy

If people want to stick with old system why don’t they go back to the 12th?

And really what is wrong with mixing the 13.5 and the 21.5.

Bottom line is what the BRCA say must go… so the real question is when is the 2013 rules going to be distributed??

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by f888fhw

From what i have been told one of my clubs is going to run exactly to BRCA rules. So if i still want to race im going to have to fork out £130 - £170 to carry on racing.

£90 for the ESC, motor, and core single cell.

£40 - 80 for additional cells.

Is this still just a proposal? or is the 21.5 removed from the rules now?

For me the timing thing is not a problem, it is as quick to show you are running blinky on the esc as it is to show the end bell is set @ 0.

Sorry but that's more miss information, just because an endbell says 0 degree does not mean its timed at 0 degree, hence the specific motor list.

The plan is to remove for next season after the egm. As has been said clubs can still do what they like. It's not a national rules and should not be shown with the .national rules.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by qatmix

You could race touring cars? Much less hassle and just as cheap.

Maybe on your planet
New gt car with diff 130 for a top level kit
Top level tc 300 yup I see your point

[f888fhw]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Sorry but that's more miss information, just because an endbell says 0 degree does not mean its timed at 0 degree, hence the specific motor list.

The plan is to remove for next season after the egm. As has been said clubs can still do what they like. It's not a national rules and should not be shown with the .national rules.

Understand what you are saying regarding the endbell, but i can say if it is blinking it is not actually stock.......

The motor list also has the line "If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees"