Fuel injection for model cars?

[SHY]

Why not move on technology-wise also for fuel track classes?

Easy, more runtime, more power, less breakage...

We could have a standard EFRA item?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

Why not move on technology-wise also for fuel track classes?

Easy, more runtime, more power, less breakage...

We could have a standard EFRA item?

cost would be the problem

[SHY]

Why?

A fuel injection system would not cost much I think. And should be very long lasting. Advantages would be:

-less consumption = you don't need a suitcase full of engines just in case
-LOWER costs, as you keep the engine temperature stable = less overheating & breakage
-more power = you don't need a super hand tuned engine

Look at the A mains of 200mm and 1:8 TR - in the EC or WC - not even those guys can keep the engine running for 45 or 60 minutes. Or make a 5 minute qualification run... very often these days the lucky ones win, not the best drivers...

C'mon... for electrics we now have brushless and lipo, it's time to move on also for fuel classes. Those carburettors are vintage!!!

[_JP_]

maybe they need to run Sirio

[SHY]

I've done some googling:


From the manual:

Wouldn't it be great if your mechanic could tune your engine perfectly every time, and you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not your engine was too rich or too lean? Even better, wouldn't it be great if your mechanic could ride along in your model, and adjust it for different conditions that would allow the engine to accelerate and perform better? Sounds like sci-fi stuff ? Enter PC/RC.

PC/RC has been manufacturing hobby electronics such as the Digi-Temp digital temperature probe and Digi-Tach tachometers for years, and realized that if they could put all of that technology into one magic box and add a little software, a system could result that could automatically tune your R/C gas engine. After more than a year of testing and development they had a product dubbed the Electronic Fuel Regulator, or EFR, which was light, performed as expected, and had minimal draw on the battery pack.

Now the average or expert racer can have his engine tuned precisely, while in the heat of the competition, and without worry. How does it work? Think of the EFR as fuel injection. Simply stated the EFR consists basically of three parts - the valve, the controller, and the sensor. The sensor transmits information back to the controller, and tells the valve the proper amount of fuel to allow, based on the carburetor opening. The carburetor opening is sensed via the servo output from the receiver.

Installation Pick a suitable location for the processor, and mount it securely. A small hole is necessary in the exhaust manifold, about 1/4 inch (6mm) from the mouth of the manifold where it attaches to the engine.. The valve simply installs in the fuel line between the fuel tank and the carburetor inlet. Now plug the unit into the receiver and plug the throttle servo into the controller and you are ready to program.

Why is the engine running at a cooler temperature? With manual tuning, a mechanic is trying to find a compromise between two needle valves. The transition from low to high requires a richer setting in the middle, to overlap and a leaner setting on the top needle. This leaner setting on the top is what causes most high temperatures, and premature engine failures. Using the EFR is like having many synchronized needle valves, and since they are not compromising, the results are settings which are more precise and not as lean; therefore cooler.

Another thing which has been observed and could be very important to many drivers is the ability to spot a problem before it becomes a bigger problem. If the engine has been running fine and then suddenly starts to run richer and richer you can bet that the rod bearing or something is going bad inside the engine. In testing there was enough advance warning that complete piston/sleeve replacement was avoided by a simple change of the rod. How many good engines will this save? There will also be an occasion when the unit fluctuates between rich and lean. A check of the fuel tank for leaks or the muffler coupler for rips will usually find the culprit.

The biggest difficulty with gas R/C is the inability to get engines to run right. Some have actually quit altogether because of the frustration of trying to tune the carb or finding a mechanic that could tune it well enough to be competitive. Using an EFR is going to change all of that. The EFR, with its enhanced car programming, will extend the life, and increase the performance of car engines as no product has done before. This same thought process is exactly what R.O.A.R. saw as a good enough reason to approve the product for racing.

The future is here and your radio-controlled model can now benefit from a technology that will not only increase your enjoyment and satisfaction, but ultimately improve the hobby.

EFR 801 benefits are :
Optimum mixture throughout the varying throttle setting
Improve fuel management
Reliable engine performance in varying weather conditions
Consistent performance throughout operation
Increase engine life
Automatic shut down on power failure
No adjustments necessary
Maximizes performance
List Price: US$159.95

http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-ro...injection.html

http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/s...ad.php?t=26997

Seems like they stopped selling it in 2002 due to licensing problems:
http://www.pcrcproducts.com/news.html


O.S. made fuel injection for model engines back in 1999:
http://castlehillhobbies.com.au/comp...mart/Itemid,1/

http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/...0sfi/index.htm

http://www.singahobby.com.sg/osm01.html


From Conley Precision Engines:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1

http://www.conleyprecision.com/products.htm

[Gayo]

So it's not available any more? What a shame

I remember a few years ago (10 maybe?), an 1/8 RC driver was using a personal device with a small servo and a temp probe. The inboard system was adjusting the main needle permanently so the motor was never too rich or too lean - Ace! Maybe it was an EFR?

An innovative company like Traxxas or Orion should really make a system like this

[SHY]

I'll propose it for EFRA for 2009 (too late this year), and we'll see what happens. It must be a discussion at the AGM first. I think a cooperation between manufacturers will be needed. It looks like this is patented solutions from full scale, and you therefore need to pay for licensing. I envision an EFRA homologated system which can be sold under different brands.

Those who want to use carbs (only) can of course continue doing so.

If we can pull this off it would become mainstream after some years, and make fuel model car racing much more accessible to all drivers. I've seen so much frustration - also from very experienced racers...

A friend of mine tested this approx 10 years ago. He then tested it on an old & worn engine. With the system mounted it outperformed any motor he had ever had. And you could hear it increasing in fast corners. A fixed setting cannot compete with optimum fuel mixture all the way...

[rcluke]

you can get an intercooler for rc cars

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by _JP_

maybe they need to run Sirio

and illegal pipes!!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by SHY

Why?

A fuel injection system would not cost much I think. And should be very long lasting. Advantages would be:

-less consumption = you don't need a suitcase full of engines just in case
-LOWER costs, as you keep the engine temperature stable = less overheating & breakage
-more power = you don't need a super hand tuned engine

Look at the A mains of 200mm and 1:8 TR - in the EC or WC - not even those guys can keep the engine running for 45 or 60 minutes. Or make a 5 minute qualification run... very often these days the lucky ones win, not the best drivers...

C'mon... for electrics we now have brushless and lipo, it's time to move on also for fuel classes. Those carburettors are vintage!!!

not cost much?
so you need

fuel pump
throttle body
injector
some form of meetering device
electronics if its not a mechancial system

ok so you ot £50 for a carb, you do that for the same money

Originally Posted by rcluke

you can get an intercooler for rc cars

not much point unless your fitting a turbo!!

[SHY]

List Price: US$159.95

C'mon I'm sure you know very well how much you spend of engines and accesories for a full fuel track season! It's a lot!...

A device like this would pay itself back many times already the first year!

And NO, the carb does NOT do the same thing! It has one fixed setting, which is far from ideal! Typically the engine leans out too much on the long straights whilst running too rich on the infield. Always a compromise. A fuel injection system adjusts the mixture constantly and gives perfect mixture under all circumstances. There's even a cold start program to reduce wear furthermore!

[DCM]

if it meant that runing nitro, didn't seem such a black art to make your engine run right, it can only be a good thing.

[SHY]

Exactly!

1:8 OR has exploded in interest - and why? You can get a RTR package for next to nothing these days! And beginners are often more tempted by that than electric classes... but soon disappear from the scene after hours of frustration...

For 1:8 TR I've seen several times experienced racers blow up more than 3 engines in one day...

Keep in mind also that if this becomes the de facto standard the prices will also drop continously...

[mark christopher]

come on the os engine was listed as $999.99
and hat was in 1999, if it worked that well it would be main stream now

the product in your picture still nesds the carb as a throtle body!!

carb does not have just one fixed setting, or they would not fit low mid and high adjustments!!

[SHY]

There's a lot of politics, timing and coincidences as to what is mainstream or not... The MiniDisc is far superior to the CD for instance, but was introduced too late... Anyway, let's not get into a hopeless discussion.

The O.S. 4-stroke aeroplane engine I guess we'd better keep out of the equation.

The PC/RC system as I understand used the carb yes, which is perfectly ok! It sounds like a simple yet effective solution. It logs the servo movements (=amount of throttle opening) and the exhaust temperature. And then adjusts the fuel pressure in order to keep the temperature stable. And according to different profiles. The cold start profile/program probably runs it extra rich for a while.

I THINK (I cannot be 100% sure) that if the big manufacturers did an effort here we could have a great system That PC/RC company might not have had the necessary marketing resources... think about it - how many heard of it "in time"? And many still deny such a solution can work at all...

The EFRA discusson proposal is written and will be sent in 2009 if it's passed at our national convention in 4 weeks...

I proposed to test it only in UK first!

[mark christopher]

no point making it efra apoved until you have a working product to aprove!!

[SHY]

Originally Posted by SHY

EFRA discusson proposal

EFRA uses two different proposal forms:
-general discussion
-rule change

[mark christopher]

ah so you want to discus a probduct thats not avalable to see if they would accept it?

[peetbee]

That makes sense. No point in anyone trying to develop something if it can't be used!

[SHY]

PC/RC would have been far better off if they got their product homologated... that's why I want EFRA to discuss the matter with the factories first of all.

If no factories find this interesting I'll keep my mouth shut of course. I'm just hoping some associated members will attend the AGM and seriously consider the possibility.

Technically it's possible. It has already been done. If someone can get hold of the EFR 801 you already have the technology at hand.

As to cost it has been proved that it can be made and sold for a reasonable price.

In order for fair competition I'd like to see a "standard" software & hardware that the manufacturers agree upon, and that EFRA then later can homologate.

Clear now?