Longer races?

[scotty_big_flip]

longer finals, always a hot topic (for the 4wd boys lol) but if you are good enuf to lead whatever final you are in from start to finish be it buggy TC or Nitro racing then i supose the extra minute may feel like an unnecessary complication, but if ur battling for every place or working youre way thru the field after a bad start then every second/lap always seems to count, for me anyway. usualy after spending half the first lap doing turtle impresions so im all game for longer finals

[TARTMAN]

I agree with many coments.
The old days of 5 min 10 seconds and dead, thank god there gone forever. etc etc....

I say, Qualifying heats still normal 5 mins, But finals maybe 6 or 7 minutes.

would not add much time to the day, unless a 120 driver day of course, but club level would be easy enough i think.......

worth a try maybe........

[bandyleg]

Originally Posted by scotty_big_flip

longer finals, always a hot topic (for the 4wd boys lol) but if you are good enuf to lead whatever final you are in from start to finish be it buggy TC or Nitro racing then i supose the extra minute may feel like an unnecessary complication, but if ur battling for every place or working youre way thru the field after a bad start then every second/lap always seems to count, for me anyway. usualy after spending half the first lap doing turtle impresions so im all game for longer finals

I couldnt agree more mr big flip the last meet was a perfect example you were in the lead and one mistake cost you time there was just no chance of getting back.
The longer finals in our local club seems to have made a big difference as the boys who were running on the limit and usually leading seem to have toned it down a bit and now running at a slightly lesser pace and the rest of the racers now have a fighting chance.

I think If you have money to throw at your hobby then breaking something isnt an issue but for your average joe money plays a big part because if your trying to drive on the limit all the time then its going to cost as at some point your gonna self destruct lol, if its toned down a touch and you dont have to drive like you stole the thing just to keep up then it gives us less fortunate ones a chance to show we can drive at a consistent pace and do well without the hobby being a marriage breaker financially.

Im not a fast driver by a long shot but for me the extra minute has made a big difference to my mental attitude towards how i drive, I cant explain it but I dont feel like im on a mad dash for the finish line and seem to settle better.

ALL HALE LONGER RACE

[ironmangav]

Originally Posted by bandyleg

10 minutes is quite a long time for a newbie racer and also quite some time for a pro driver to concentrate, I think however the problem would come from over heating as top drivers now a days are running there cars so highly tuned that even another couple of minutes would probably cause a meltdown lol.
How ever at our local club we now run 6 minute finals and we are observing the pros and cons.
It seem so far that the 2 wd guys are happy to run the 6 minutes without too much of a problem, but the 4wd guys are having over heating problems this is more then likely due to the fact they drive like mad men lol.

Thats my 10 pence but there is gonna be a good bunch of arguments for this. personally i am in favour of the extra time

Agree start at 1min at a time if this works im sure tech will develop and can run for longer times in both 2wd and 4wd.

[VincentVisser]

We run 5min heats and a 5 min final.

Depending on people there we can do 3-5 heats and a final.

We run 540, 2wd and 4wd so if we have lots of people there on the day it’s a bit manic. + if all the international events are 5mins you would want to be as prepared for them as possible so 5 min is a good time.

[Mad-Wolfie]

I know last year when we did the 24 hour event we were getting 15-20 minutes from a 5000 LiPo before it needed changing, however we were running at a more moderate pace using a silvercan based motor & a basic speedo rather than a top spec low turn brushless & ESC.

Personally i think though as the tech has improved from brushed motors, the battery tech has equally improved, for instance a 1600 mah nicad in the late 80's was probably only lasting as long as a modern day LiPo does with modern tech strapped to it because the tech in the 80's car was more basic & not demanding as much from the battery as todays technology so run times are generally the same from a fully charged pack.

I know with 1:12th scale we are running 8 minutes in nationals & competition, however the cars are running on the flat & are running single-cell liPo so the current drain is a lot less.

Plus with the on-road classes it's a level surface so the amount you use in a battery during in a race is fairly consistent wherever you go to race a 12th, but with off-road i find battery use to be very inconsistent from track-to-track using anything from 900mah to 1900mah during a 5 min run because the car is running on a more 3 dimensional circuit that 12th's or tourers etc & no 2 circuits are the same. Likewise wet weather or warm weather affects the performance & the battery life so although it may be the same track, the going may be a lot harder if it rains, where with 12th, all the races are held indoors, so the track conditions are generally the same & not affected by sunlight or weather conditions which can affect the performance. Granted 12th's have the same problems with grip levels & finding the right tyres etc, but the 12ths always run on carpet, buggies run on any surface, astro, carpet, grass, dirt etc which affect the performance & the weather or heat can affect how that surface reacts on the tyres.

[jmke]

Personally i think though as the tech has improved from brushed motors, the battery tech has equally improved, for instance a 1600 mah nicad in the late 80's was probably only lasting as long as a modern day LiPo does with modern tech strapped to it because the tech in the 80's car was more basic & not demanding as much from the battery as todays technology so run times are generally the same from a fully charged pack.

uhm? top rated batteries lasted 4-8min on average in the old days
Lipo 5000mah lasts 15min easily, if you run more moderate motors & timings you can close in on 30min...

[fredswain]

When I raced in the 80's we got our cars as light as possible since weight takes power to move and more weight takes more power. We geared based on if we could finish the race or not and not on motor temperature or necessarily the best gearing for the track based on speed. It was definitely a game of strategy and trade-offs. Motors and batteries both ran super hot and we needed heat sinks on the motors to help them stay cool. Motors got cleaned out after each heat which helped cool them. Brushes got resurfaced or replaced. Batteries got the discharge light bulb hooked up to them and were then thrown right back on the quick 15 minute charger while still hot to get it charged in time for it's next use. This was tough on batteries and motors. A 5 minute main was an eternity!

Today motors and esc's stay cool. I can get a half an hour of runtime and still be able to touch my motors. The problem is trying to keep the car together for that long on our harder modern tracks. We actually do vary race and qualifying lengths based on attendance. If there are lots of people with many heats to run, we'll do 5 minute qualifiers with a 7-8 minute main. If we get a slow night with less people then we may run 7-8 minute qualifiers with a 10 minute main. Sometimes we have 2 qualifiers and sometimes we have 3. We've even had a 15 minute main. Most prefer to keep it to 10 or under. Keep in mind that some places follow ROAR rules (at least some here do) and they have rules for heat lengths.

[Col]

Originally Posted by VincentVisser

We run 5min heats and a 5 min final.

Depending on people there we can do 3-5 heats and a final.

We run 540, 2wd and 4wd so if we have lots of people there on the day it’s a bit manic. + if all the international events are 5mins you would want to be as prepared for them as possible so 5 min is a good time.

Last year we did several quieter meetings with 4 rounds and 7min finals. I found it made no difference to overall finishing positions

[jmke]

I found it made no difference to overall finishing positions

I don't think that's the aim?
rather to have more time running your car when going out for a race day.

I went to several race events last and this year at BRCC in Charlerloi, Belgium; race days starts at 8:00, lasts until 18:00. To get any kind of practice , arrive at 7:00, which means get up at 5:00 in the morning.

3 qualif and 3 heats of 5min each. Which means you drive your car for a total of 30min, while spending 11 hours at the track.

If I go to the track on a none-race day; almost every minute spend at the track is driving your car

[Si Coe]

Yes, but the length of the race day is a result of all the races added together because the track isn't sitting idle for long at all. Longer races means a longer day - an extra minute on your race is also an extra minute to everyone elses too, which for a big meeting means an extra 10-12 minutes per round. In other words for your 6 round meeting thats an extra 6 minutes track time for at least an extra hour at the track:
30 mins in 11hours or 36 mins in 12 hours - hardly an improvement!

That is the myth that needs to be busted here. Longer races cannot mean more time on track without also making the race day longer. Its not just your race that gets more time, its everyones!

[jmke]

you are correct; not stating that it should be changed; but just finding it a bit sad to spend a whole day at the racetrack on raceday and only drive 30min

[flipside]

True, but there is no way around it, is there :-)? Si Coe's explanation is a simple fact, nothing to do about it.

Here in Belgium, at some club races, they do 7 or 8 minute finals, which is perfectly possible with 5 or 6 heats in total. Also todays material is up to it, even in 4WD. We did a 12H race, ran similar pace as we did on that tracks national event, and could easily run 20 minutes in 2WD, so 7-8 minutes should be easy :-)

The extra minutes help to practise concentration, so it's no disadvantage when you switch back to 5mins on a bigger event (in fact it is an advantage).

Some people want nitro style bump up finals and then a longer A main to get more runtime. But then you take away runtime from people who don't get in the A main, or who don't bump up 7 finals.

So I like it the way it is now, same amount of track time for everyone (except at reeeeeeally big races as only the A main gets 3 runs).

[Naushad]

Currently as a novice driver I find 5-6 minutes a long time for me to concentrate intensely. So it's more than enough for me!

[CharlieF]

I have not commented on this thread previously simply because if you want to accommodate as many drivers as possible at an event, 5 minute races are the only way to go unless events run until darkness desends (Club race meetings with less than 40-60 entrants excepted)..
A brilliant European event; the Belgian GP limits competitors to 90 (unlike UK Nationals which are 120) and still cant accommodate all the drivers who wish to take part because the format they run finishes well into the evening!. Although out of touch with the Belgian GP these days I am fairly certain that if you havent booked in on day one or two of entries opening you are still unlikely to get in!
So, as I am sure has been said previously Club numbers are such that they can run what race length they like. However if their drivers wish to progress to Regional/National/International standard they need to be good over 5 minutes.
Regards.

[Benh]

The only way it would make sense (time efficiency wise) is to run something like 10mins and run 2 qualy heats. This would save between 1-2 mins transition time per round. (Based on previous 4qualy heats)

For 12 heats, that's about 48 mins max, over a day of qualy. That enables an equal distribution of additional racing time of approx 4 minutes. Or finishing the day about 3/4 an hour earlier. Or giving some finals 2 or 3 legs.

I wouldn't vote it in.

[metalmickey0]

We at WORM now run 5 minute heats , then 6 minutes finals WITH bump-ups depending on time. Some people didnt believe us when i said youve bumped up.( Mr Knight) So 2 runs is no probs

[DCM]

Just a heads up, indoors during the winter, we run 6 min heats, it gives you more track time, but we don't have 40 people racing either. We recently moved outdoors on grass, 6 mins and you had some peoples car's thermalling and desoldering, so we dropped back to five mins and added an extra final in for good measure.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by jmke

you are correct; not stating that it should be changed; but just finding it a bit sad to spend a whole day at the racetrack on raceday and only drive 30min

go race nitro?

[Si Coe]

What might be worth considering though is instead of 3 leg A-finals at nationals and regionals how about a single 15 minute final. That give more time to recover from a mistake, and those guys can keep the pace for that length of time.
As a bonus, thats 2 less 2-3min transitions between heats so you could then make the B final 10 minutes long as well.
No overall change to the length of the day, same track time for the A guys (but a different challenge) and a boost for the B final guys. Also might change the winners circle a bit as longer finals might suit some more than others.