Summer 2013 Season

[RCMadShane]

Summer 2013 Season

Hi all… It has been commented on that our championship is based on attendance rather than performance, so with this in mind the committee would like to propose the summer season is run to the attached guide…

Have a read and let me know what you think…

[LongRat]

As I see it the situation isn't any different. Only now, this rule will allow someone to compete equally in touring and GT12 with the chance to win both if they do well enough. There are still drop scores rounds as we have always had, so you can miss a few weeks and still have a decent chance in the championship.
Possibly one issue with attendance influencing the championship result is really due to the points scoring system. It is extremely difficult to make up a deficit due to lack of attendance because the winner takes home 30 points and second is so close in points - 29/30 = 97% of a win. I'm personally ok with how the current rules work, but if you wanted to improve this aspect the better method would be to increase the bonus for a win, F1 style... So the points from 1st to 5th might run 30, 22, 18, 15, 13 or something.

[J'MM'N]

Sorry to say it all seems a total nonsense to me and can't see what advantages it will bring. Although the championship is not the all to end all, it does add a little spice to the club racing. So why allow half the season racing for nothing, the only ones that gain any advantage from this are those racing both classes. If you don't want it to be an attendance championship, then make it the best 18-20 scores out of the 26 rounds.

Don't agree with the F1 scoring system either, sorry LR. Although in principle its a good idea and works well in other race programs, it doesn't suit our club racing as those at the bottom would never get any points and they as much as those at the top, want to finish the championship above like for like racers. A lot of championships give an extra point for FTD, why don't we take it a little further and give an extra point for winning your final, which would be yet another incentive for those down in the C or D finals.

Sorry if I sound a bit negative, but I think it could be done better to suit everyone

Could someone point me in the direction of the GERCC’s own GT12/Mardave rules, as I'd be interested.

[Gunter]

I think the idea behind it was so that for those who can't make all that many weeks due to other commitments (work, family etc) they would still be able to feature In the champs and could sort work/fam around the weeks that would just be pratice nights for them. So making it fair on everyone and not just who can make most weeks.

I can't see how the only ones to gain an advantage are people doing both classes cos there nothing stopping people from doing both classes each week currently, it's just a very busy night so but can be done.

Doing this format would also allow nights to just try things and pratice and not endanger any champ points.

Another advantage would be that cars which don't meet one of the champ classes (TC or GT12) would be able to run freely with the class of cars that isnt having a championship night, therefor the racing for the champs would only have like for like cars in their races making the racing cleaner and fair.

And with the extra point for winning there finals wouldn't really work as currently GERCC work slightly differently to most clubs and the qualifying is worked on a FTD basis but the finals are also done in the same way so someone in the B final could win overall of they got the fastest time. Not sure how many peopl aware of this mind.

[RogerM]

From my prospective it would be a disaster!!!

I'd almost bet my house on the fact that all the weeks I could make it would be snooring carp rounds and thus I'd simply stay away as the drivers I'd want to race against would be concentrating on that not GT12.

Leave it as is, let people make the choice what to run. I've no vested interest as at best I could probably do 3 weeks in a 5 week month so no chance of featuring in the championship either way .... not even if I TQ and win every week, which of course I intend to do

[Baldy1986]

To be honest, I am currently sat on the fence and unsure. I have had a think, and here are my (as far as possible) subjective thoughts. It is a bit of an essay, but summit to think about...


Championship every week
Pros
- Competitive racing every week in all classes.
- No matter who turns up when, all will be fighting.
- Getting monies worth every week.
- When focussing on one class, potentially greater chance of beating those spreading focus on two classes.

Cons
- Potentially more expensive - using 'best' tyres every week, for example.
- Less willingness/ability to experiment - with only 2 qualifying races and one final, why change setup and risk a race result?
- When using 2 classes, manic race night every week.

Alternative weeks are championship
Pros
- More willingness to play with setup, experiment a bit more, try new things.
- Potentially cheaper as 'lower quality' parts could be used, such as tyres as it isn't as competitive.
- Less stressful for those racing two classes, as one class is more relaxed.
- Those willing to race 'other' types of cars will be able to race, and in a race which will not affect other championship positions.

Cons
- Every other week could be less fun/less competitive.
- Will this return racing to who has the deepest pockets, as those with greater ability to experiment will benefit most?
- Fewer competitive nights over season will be discounted.

Questions - these aren't weighted just to think about.
- Drivers are worried that they will only be able to attend nights that are non championship - does this matter, as if they are only racing occasional nights, they will not be competitive in the current championship operation anyway?
- Is another idea just to discount more out of the current championship operation, rather than placing specifics dates which do/do not count?
- Is this likely to affect a certain range of drivers - ie, do youngsters/beginners care (Y - they like to be in a championship/N - they just want to race)? Or is this aimed at those who are able to/wanting to experiment for nationals/bigger race weekends?
- Will either choice have an affect on attracting new members/retaining members?
- What happens when a new class of racing appears, or one of these dies out? Will it just be one week on/off or three week rotational cycles? I know this is referring specifically to the Summer 2013 season, but to think about.

[Baldy1986]

God, I am too exciting for my own good looking at that lol...

[RogerM]

What I meant by my statement Baldy was that if this came to be then you would lose some drivers that couldn't make it every week from the club altogether. Why would you go to a club you couldn't race people of a similar ability because they were racing alternating classes? For me it couldn't give a monkeys about the championship, I just want to race against people like Gunter & have no interest in being bashed about with the less experienced drivers, no offence meant to them.
When will this be decided? Don't want to spend more money until it is in case I can no longer race the class.

[RCMadShane]

Please “don’t panic” guys no changes have been implemented.

This Pol / Request has originated from you the Members and the Committee have had a look and hence the proposal.

We have drivers who would like more practice time…Sometimes it is nice to be able to try something different without worrying about your points.

We have Drivers who cannot come every week…Some drivers feel penalised as they are unable to come every week and the current system does not allow for them to be counted..

We have drivers frustrated by outlaw cars…Drivers have complained that they are taken out by cars not fighting for championship points.

As people have asked the questions it is the decision of the Committee to review. You are our business and you have the choice to air your opinions and these will be taken into account.

[Simion Wabs]

I am defo against this.

If I can understand this correctly, the main purpose of the change is to allow people "free" weeks to tweak their car without the risk of losing championships points. As a % of club racers, how many are considering small changes week in week out? 10%, 20% max!
The most simple way to provide people with an opportunity to "tweak/setup" their car would be to reduce number of Championship weeks.

So instead of best 40 /46 make it the best 30/46. That means the weeks you have reduced your cars performance through "tweaking/trials/change of setup" the results won't count against your championship points.

Like JMMN and RogerM pointed out, not everyone races to "win" the championship anyway and still turn up because the racing is competitive.
Take away teh competitiveness and you will lose racers.

Despite the club being busy as of late, come Summer numbers reduce considerably so we should be making hay as they say.

The current system is NOT broke!! Ok it could do with a Tweak, but we don't have to completely change the format to suit only 10%/20% of racers.

I agree that this poll is a great idea, but we must offer the opportunity to vote on a race night when most people are in attendance

I vote NO

[Gunter]

Roger don’t worry ill still race both cars every week, TBH if anything id only run my TC every other week during the summer but still do the stox every week so you’ll still have me there and many others im sure. (just to clarify every week with have both classes running incase that’s been mis-understood by any1)

This as Shane said is only an idea because a few people have said to me and him, it’s to many weeks and they don’t contend in the champs and would like to.(or words to that effect)

Also allows cheaper weeks as baldy said using older tyres (in my case outdoor tyres on my TC to save me buying so many carpet ones)

At the end the day this was only put on hear to see the views of people and I personally thought it made sense it didn’t hinder any1, make it fair on the people that can’t come as often as others and I didn’t really see the downside. It would allow people who currently would like to run 2 classes but don’t due to it being busy have a go at running another class. And the comment bout it would only benefit the people running two classes….. I can’t see its going to make much difference if someone dose 1 class or 2 classes in a night they still same driver and that’s the main part. If things start braking then that’s maybe where it gets hard for people doing two classes.

Can I just ask how is this format going to affect the competitiveness of the racing? Surely it’s going to improve it as there will be no longer times when non champ cars are in your race and cost you time/points.

If everyone don’t like it and just wants less counting rounds then I guess that will be what happens but I cant see how it suites the 10/20% of members it suites all those that cant make enough weeks to norm contend in the champs which is the majority as only about 6/7 people norm get enough rounds to compete.

And im sure this will also be held on the night with a voting box or whatever but on hear comments such as above can also be expressed.

[Markygia]

Hi Everyone

I agree with some many of everyones comments. I liked the idea of greater differnece in points between win, 2nd 3rd 4th etc etc. and I liked the idea of extra point - although as someone mentioned its prob not fair but would add an extra little dimension.
I would also suggest maybe a bonus point for fastest lap - just because I want them to implement this in F1

My personal preference is edging in favour of the new proposal as I have two cars. I tried racing both but it serioulsy handicaps both classes. and when you race, marshall, race, marshall and then have to try find time to fix your car or change something it gets too stressful to bother doing it. So i stopped after a while. then didnt get enough rounds in for the GT12 champs.

would be nice to concentrate on one car a week - would still race both but i would only need to worry about changing one car. This would free up a bit more time and be less stressful so would be worth it. therefore I would race GT12 as well as TC whereas previously I had decided to quit GT12. I think the racing would still be competitive, it would still be timed and people would still want to win.
I would think (or though may be wrong) the only people who would miss any races would be people who race two cars and need to miss the odd race.

that practice night was good and we didnt even have lap timing or arranged races - so maybe this is what prompted the proposed changes - people said to me too it was good to try stuff out. It would be even better if the night still had organisation to it.

Would give everyone a chance to race any car they liked too - and would give people who race non-championship classes a chance to race against people of thier own ability rather than dumping them in their own 'mixed' class.

One point I do agree with is excluding non-championship class cars in amoungst a championship class on a championship night.

The last thing you want is your race ruined by someone who aint even officially 'competing' against you.

I'm not blaming anyone racing another class as when you have cars of the wrong class in your race they have different areas where they are faster/slower so again more likely to collide and ruin one-anothers race. Just as likely to happen other way aroud as well - but usually you find someone competing in a championship should be being more cautious as they dont want to lose points. whereas someone turning up adhoc will be more gung ho.

Also, other classes of car dont have restrictions so their cars will likely be faster - but this isnt necessarily matched with the drivers ability - so you have a mixed ability which also doesnt help.

I suppose this is an argument for the new proposed rules as the mixed classes can be run on non-champ nights without it mattering quite AS much.

you wont get any Lovell strops hah

[RogerM]

Originally Posted by Gunter

Roger don’t worry ill still race both cars every week, TBH if anything id only run my TC every other week during the summer but still do the stox every week so you’ll still have me there and many others im sure. (just to clarify every week with have both classes running incase that’s been mis-understood by any1).

Good to hear ... would need to find a better way of seeding drivers though as I can see problems there also.

Who would get a top heat spot, somebody who was running 2 seconds a lap slower than you but doing well in the championship due to scoring every possible time or somebody on your pace who has not scored well due to the championship weeks not being possible race evenings for them?

If you give the faster driver the top heat place the championship contender would no doubt be upset (I can understand that).
If you give the championship contender the place the faster driver will most likely cause chaos in the heat below as he tries to avoid the others meaning neither they or anybody else in that heat, including the other championship regulars, have a good nights racing either (I can understand that too)

It's a tough call either way!!

[Gunter]

Yep I totally agree, the seeding is abit dodgy im not 100% on the best way.

Currently it’s done by each driver having an ability put aside there driver profile which is done using the previous years AVG points (I THINK). So for instance sum1 who turns up once and wins both quail and final will get an ability of 50 (we do it out of 50 because of the number of drivers which I guess will need to change with the larger numbers.)as there AVG is 30 out of 30. So my AVG in TC I think is 28.57 I think OJ got higher and Mark will have higher as he done better in TC than me last year. So my ability is 48.

Each driver has a different profile for each different class so my GT12 was started this week as it was my 1st time so I should of really started dead last….. but my ability from my TC was used to put me in a more appropriate place (3rd I think I started)

With the number of new / different drivers turning up all the time its hard for race control to sort every1 so there may be a few weeks for people to find there feet see where they end up and then adjust there ability accordingly.

I personally think it would be carnage putting the faster drivers in the bottom heat and wouldn’t be nice for anyone but then I have invested interest in that so its up to the majority I guess. I think the seeding should be on people’s current years AVG points score rather than the previous years or only use the previous years for the first few weeks (or when someone turns up who not been there for the starting weeks of the champs) and then you will always be racing with the people of your ability.

For example, If I missed the 1st 4 weeks I could still do enough rounds to win so it would be unfair to make me start last because others have had a head start? That’s penalising the people who cant make many rounds such as yourself, you’d have to always start last as you don’t make many weeks.

Hopefully that’s how it currently works that’s how im aware it works but baldy might be able to shead some more light on it

[cryer-evo]

Just leave it as it is

[grayslick]

I think it is too prescriptive to say week 1 = touring car and week 2 = supastox. It is not particularly flexible if you've got other commitments.

I think we should aim for-

- significantly reducing the number of points scoring rounds that count
- adding extra points for fastest qualifying laps
- slightly staggering the points system to reward first/second/third place, this will help with the final points tally i.e you wont just get someone who turns up every week near the top of the championship

I am against having uncompetitive weeks. By having competitive racing every week you will ensure everyone is striving to improve their position in the championship whenever they turn up which seems fair to me.

[Markygia]

Grayslick talks some sense. I agree with all of that.

[Gunter]

Extra points for fastest qualifying laps as in who gets FTD gets a extra point which is done in alot of RC racing or for literally the fastest single lap?

Not sure it should be done for the fastest single lap as this sort of promotes doing 1 silly lap risking others cars and going abit wild. FTD I'd agree with tho

[grayslick]

Yes, FTD would be better although like Markygia, I like the idea of a fastest lap from the heats being awarded too but appreciate this might cause other problems in the heats with drivers slowing up to find free space to nail a lap.

FTD point(s) would just create that extra points allocation that could make all the difference if the number of rounds that count are reduced. Otherwise we could end up with several drivers on the same number of points at the end of the summer.

[Gunter]

Yep can totally agree with that, but I think the least we cut it down to is 28 scores counting so another 8 results or 4 weeks so 10 weeks in total can be lost but yea I like the sound of FTD extra point :-)

If there was even point count back would always decide of course