Fastest / Most popular cars at your club 2013

[discostu]

Originally Posted by cutting42

Club DMS Racing indoor

Med/High grip carpet with some slippy and low jumps

2WD
Fastest in order
2 sometimes 3 X6 cubed
SV2
Followed by hordes of DEX210
Most use 8.5T or 7.5T motors

4WD
Fastest in order
44.2
K1
DEX410
Quite a few B44/.1/.2 and more DEX410
Most use 6.5T or 5.5T

As has been said before all the top drivers would be the fastest with different cars.

this is exactly my point DMS sell xfactory and AE

FORCC

Fastest in order excluding Ed Kerry and Myself

2wd Not used

4wd
B44
Xray
DEX410
and most others use DEX410 or Xray
all Use 13.5

[cutting42]

Originally Posted by discostu

this is exactly my point DMS sell xfactory and AE

The X6 cubed and 44.2 are team drivers but the rest are not and DMS don't sell Durango, prob more rangos than any other make currently.

[Col]

Originally Posted by cutting42

Club DMS Racing indoor

Med/High grip carpet with some slippy and low jumps

2WD
Fastest in order
2 sometimes 3 X6 cubed
SV2
Followed by hordes of DEX210
Most use 8.5T or 7.5T motors

4WD
Fastest in order
44.2
K1
DEX410
Quite a few B44/.1/.2 and more DEX410
Most use 6.5T or 5.5T

As has been said before all the top drivers would be the fastest with different cars.

Picked randomly from cutting.

Without knowing how those "fastest" drivers would perform with the "slowest" cars I don't see how this information can be useful?
Example: the fastest driver at my club is Rich Lowe who is CML/AE/JC sponsored and runs a 44.2, but he'd still be fastest with any other car out there... In his case the car is almost irrelevant for club meets.

[Dodgy Guy]

Your not fighting a battle against me. I know exactly what your saying. I didn't suggest it in response to anything you have said.
I just think a review section would be good. Drivers would probably give thoughts on the surface they have run on etc in more detail.
A lot of people new to the hobby ask what is the best car and either get told - none, it's the driver or the thread gets closed.
A review section would stop them the embarrassment.
That's just my opinion as I would of liked to read oople members thoughts/reviews on certain cars when I started the hobby.

[SOSx]

Hi Cutting 42 - cheers for getting involved.

Stu - No offence taken just finding the apparent negativity a little suprising. I think maybe where you and others are getting stuck is your focusing on the local results too closely. On there own they are of little value as local trends will apply, but once we have the results for 50 clubs or more then we can start to take some averges and see what is really succeeding on a wider scale.

I think the way i have asked for the information to be listed now is probably not ideal as it is still not specificly related to results enough and maybe still allows too much opinion rather than results.

Shifting back to my more advanced idea of compiling a wide range of actual club results (ignoring the driver details) into an actual unofficial "Manufacturers championship".

As I said earlier, if we could get as many clubs as possible around the country to send us/input the data on the manufacturer/model of cars (and possibly tyres and other equipment) of the top 10 finishers at each event we could then assign a points system (10 for first down to 1 for 10th) and get a real time view as the season progresses of the cars (and possibly tyres) success on a national level.

If this could be updated online regularly giving each manufacturer/model (and possibly tyres and other equipment ) overall national championship positions/ranking as well as possibly positions/rankings at each individual club/venue. Think F1 manufacturers championship but with the results compiled from the years club results.

What i'm really looking to do is create a tool to guage all the different cars and equipments abilty based purely on results/capabilities in a more scientific way. Although I think it could actually be both a usefull, fun and intruging tool but ain its own right a "Manufacturers Championship" could be very interesting to follow what ever the why's and where for's of the results. To be honest just the debate why the particular results arrise could lead to some very intersting threads.

Or another idea

Would be for the BRCA section to run somthing like this along side the normal "drivers" championships but just basing it on the results from the Nationals. Again you could use a point scoring system something along the lines of the F1 Manufacturers championship. Something like this should be quite easy to setup really and requires very minimal extra work involved by the host club with them simply noting the equipment of the point scoring cars and uploading it into an online database at the end of the event. This would then calcutate the current scores and championship positions of each car or piece of equipment.

[SOSx]

Hi Col - Thats exactly why i had said to exclude any results from pro/sponsored drivers as that leaves results to come from a wider range of drivers/abilities.

Hi Dodge - Not a problem bud. A review section is a good idea so as to make searching easier, people could even add links from previous reviews or threads etc. My suggestion would be to start a thread on getting one added and see if you can get any interest from the mods.

[Darren Boyle]

Originally Posted by discostu

this is exactly my point DMS sell xfactory and AE

But we also sell TLR, Yokomo, Schumacher, Team C, Hobao, Centro's etc too, so not sure how our shop selling AE or XFactory cars affects what racers use at our local club. As was said, we get lots of support for Durango locally and we DONT selll them........

As for PRO's racing, none at our local club (at least not regular week in week out), a few local supported drivers, but no-one who is a national F1 and no-one who races on a professional level. If you are to exclude "sponsored" drivers of all sorts from what you are looking at achieving here you will need to exclude LOTS of racers since the number of "team" drivers of varying levels in some areas is quite large (too large IMHO) especially with the number of drivers being sponsored by the larger distributors now. Years ago, you had to "earn" a team drive and they were only given out to the very best privateers out there, now it seems that almost a pulse and a credit card gets you on the team in some cases. I have heard just this week of several teams now offering "C" drives to lower level drivers. Even at regional level it used to be a "few" sponsored drivers and then the very best privateers who were in the A final, now "sponsored" drivers of some sort go right down through the alphabet when the finals are run filling up the A-D and beyond.........

[AC199]

Originally Posted by Col

Picked randomly from cutting.

Without knowing how those "fastest" drivers would perform with the "slowest" cars I don't see how this information can be useful?
Example: the fastest driver at my club is Rich Lowe who is CML/AE/JC sponsored and runs a 44.2, but he'd still be fastest with any other car out there... In his case the car is almost irrelevant for club meets.

Col, Rich is HPI/HB/JC sponsored.

At the risk of offending the OP, this information has absolutely no value at all. It is impossible to compare this many variables without a reference, and there isn't a reference that can be used across so many variables.

In essence what you are comparing is the fastest drivers across multiple surfaces, cars, setups, electrics, driving styles, experience levels, wind speeds, barometric pressures, mood swings, alcohol levels, nicotine levels, proximity to most recent argument with spouse, moon phase, number of new racers, number of cars in the heat, time of day, temperature, track layout, whether that driver is simply having a bad day etc etc etc ad infinitum, post nauseum...

You literally are comparing apples to oranges here fella, without a control you have no relevant or reliable data.

The only way this could prove useful is if someone were to put together a review section to allow people to properly review the cars based on their experiences OBJECTIVELY, which 99% of people will not do given because they always have rose tinted glasses on as they have just dumped a ton of money into the car because it was an improvement over their last purchase, even if they cant see it yet...

Not meaning to offend, but I've been dealing with data my entire working life, and this data is pointless to collect.

[DrPaul]

It might not be the answer you are looking for, but AC199 is correct.

From your original post you seem to be looking for advice for what to buy or not to buy, at the end of the day its all about the track(s) you are planning to run on. National or International trends may be irrelevant at your track.

As a club racer you need to consider what surfaces you will be running on and then get feedback from racers as to what works best for them. Astro, long or short pile, grass, dirt or carpet are the relevant factors when making your car and tyre selection, speedo set up and gearing is also dependent on track surface and conditions. You can have the most popular car in the UK but if its not set up correctly for the track you are running on its irrelevant.

You may find one car/esc/motor is more popular at one club than another due to many factors. Durango have been very good on price with their RTR cars, so at some clubs these will have the largest numbers, at another club the top drivers have had some success with a particular car so that has been copied by other racers therefore is the most popular.

You will also find the best club racers can get ANY car set up and racing well, that doesn't mean you will.

As for "the fastest" that all depends on getting the car set up correctly as well as the correct tyre selection and esc/motor settings for your track.

Spec the surfaces you plan to run on and then ask for car and tyre advice and you will be able to get much more helpful feedback for your purchases.

[blue_pinky]

I personally don't think any one car is the fastest! They are all so fundamentally similar in design that differentiating between them is damn near impossible from that view point.

IMO The cars and equipment used in off-road are essentially all faster than the tracks we race on...and we spend a lot of time setting them up to limit and control them for the surfaces and shapes we run on!

The fact the the fast drivers are always the same no matter what they run is testament to this...and for me is partly why I race off-road...as deeper pockets don't make for faster cars necessarily.

Having said that....There are some very subtle factors that can effect things tiny amounts...as Dr Paul says, some cars do suit certain tracks a little (particularly in 2wd these days), but the 2 biggest factors are the driver ability and the tyres!!! Getting the power down, and balancing your grip levels at all is the challenge in off-road...but they are very subtle!

Essentially....The best car for you isn't about how fast it goes!

For me...do I like the look and feel of the design, can I get it and parts easily (hence some local trends), can I get support on setups easily (again hence some local trends).

[V6Jim]

Yup, sorry SOSx these guys are all correct.

You could spend months trying to collate all the info you got (If you got enough info of any value anyway) and you would end up with a confusion of cars/tyres/surfaces which be of no help whatsoever.

Basically there are a number of cars in each class that can all do the business. 2WD is becoming a bit trickier now with the different motor layouts, but, even having said that, get the setup right, stick it on the track and drive it. If you're good enough, you'll do well with nearly any car.

Jimmy

[SOSx]

Wow really surprised at many peoples negative views on this one.

I presume you all find the F1 manufacturers championship irrelevant to the sport with no useful information to be gained as well then??

Does it not give relevant gauge of a given cars performance despite the cars running with different engines, aero packages, kers equipment and guess what they also run on different tracks/track surfaces with drivers and at various points they have ran with multiple tyre manufacturers as well as compounds and tred patterns. Even more so than in RC the cars would appear to all be virtually identical as stipulated by the extremely strict regulations, but some how they all perform differently over a year and the gauge of this is the manufacturers championship. Yes there are always other variables such as

multiple surfaces, cars, setups, electrics, driving styles, experience levels, wind speeds, barometric pressures, mood swings, alcohol levels, nicotine levels, proximity to most recent argument with spouse, moon phase, number of new racers, number of cars in the heat, time of day, temperature, track layout, whether that driver is simply having a bad day etc etc etc ad infinitum, post nauseum...

But I feel that this does not mean that the results are of no value (you tell that to Mclaren, Mercedes or Ferrari or any of the more minor teams). And the results them selves are certainly not really to complicated to work out?? Yes there are many different conclusions that can be drawn from the information gained depending on what you want to look at and yes people can argue and debate the why and where for's but at the end of the day the results them selves do not lie. I think we can all saftely agree that the red bull is the fastest f1 car at the moment due to it RESULTS. If it didn't have the results we wouldn't. Is it really that difficult for you to relate the information I am trying to gather in the same way......

The variables involved are absolutely no different to RC racing so why would the information be any less relevant?

Yes one car in F1 car will suite a certain style of track better than another and may prefer one set of tyres to another etc etc

ad infinitum, post nauseum..

but as the styles of tracks and variables even out over a season the information both becomes relevant as a whole and at the individual tracks. We can say for an "Example" that the Mercedes cars were better on low friction surfaces with corner loads that produce less rear tyre wear, we could say that the Lotus prefered the harder compound tyre and rougher higher tyre wear tracks, the Mclearens cars were terrible on bumpy / rutted tracks as the car was to stiff. Need I go on really.

[SOSx]

Also ACC199 wrote

The only way this could prove useful is if someone were to put together a review section to allow people to properly review the cars based on their experiences OBJECTIVELY, which 99% of people will not do given because they always have rose tinted glasses on as they have just dumped a ton of money into the car because it was an improvement over their last purchase, even if they cant see it yet...

Again completely both missing the point and getting it at the same time

There are millions of reviews out there and most are of very little value other than to gain insight in the construction and layout details on the vehicle and maybe some useful information on weak components etc.

But the reason why I want some information based on just results / real data is exactly this

99% of people will not do given because they always have rose tinted glasses on as they have just dumped a ton of money into the car because it was an improvement over their last purchase, even if they cant see it yet...

Maybe the way I initially asked for the information to be provided was not the most appropriate and to adhoc. Also I think the thread title is now wrong and needs to be changed (although I cannot figure out how to do this) to something along the lines of Manufacturers championship? Maybe the way to record the data would be one of the methods such as I described later on in the thread with my F1 Manufacturers championship analogies. Does this make more sense to you all?

[bigt]

It's not f1 though is it it's toy cars the guys above are right too many variables you need to change the question to poll's maybe

[AC199]

Originally Posted by SOSx

Again completely both missing the point and getting it at the same time

I'm sorry I'm boring you with my logic, but i stress again that this information has too many variables to be of use. Lets think about this for a second.

You want to know if a durango 210 is the best car to drive on carpet for example?

It isnt, and is at the same time. At my club I'm one of 3 people who runs a durango. I suck. The car setup has been done by a durango team driver, and I still suck. The team driver could put that same car first or second without issue ever single time he raced it. You want to exclude the results of the team driver because they may sway the results. So according to your criteria from my club, the 210 is a "bad" car. This is untrue, clearly.

There are too many variables, and yes honestly you are wasting your time utterly in trying to collect this data as the skew is too great when you remove the pro drivers.

I'll save you a shitload of time and a shitload of effort.

Buy a B44.2 and a C4.2 conversion for a B4.2 so the extra bits you can use to make a B4.2.

Thats every single type of useful car for someone who isn't winning national A finals, if you cant make those cars work, then clearly your PEBTAR...

[AC199]

Sorry forgot to mention...

The only way this could prove useful is if someone were to put together a review section to allow people to properly review the cars based on their experiences OBJECTIVELY, which 99% of people will not do given because they always have rose tinted glasses on as they have just dumped a ton of money into the car because it was an improvement over their last purchase, even if they cant see it yet...

I'm not getting your point, this is sarcasm, 99% of people will go the same speed with different cars because the car is NOT what is holding them back, it is their ability with a transmitter. This is why your admirably persistent pursuit of this data is folly and even though most people are telling you it is so, you either lack the ability to read or the ability to realise that what you are asking for is foolish.

[SOSx]

AC199 - I find your logic completely flawed as your argumentuments seems quite contrite your are both saying that is very difficult / pointless to gain information taken from reviews but that the only usefull method of finding out about cars is via reviews

The only way this could prove useful is if someone were to put together a review section to allow people to properly review the cars based on their experiences OBJECTIVELY, which 99% of people will not do given because they always have rose tinted glasses on as they have just dumped a ton of money into the car because it was an improvement over their last purchase, even if they cant see it yet...

I really don't want to get into an argument as you an probably others clearly do not agree with my view that the information gained from real world results is valid and interesting. Your skills are obviously not in data analysis so all I would say is if the information is of no interest to you (and it obviously isn't) as all cars are obviously exactly as capable as each other in all situations, conditions and driving ability.

Oh and cheers for the advise on getting the same car as you. How suprising.

[danDanEFC]

#Gets popcorn and a drink#

[SOSx]

Right I don't want to get into any argument with probably very nice people over a thread that is really not focused where I want it to be.

I think that both the title and my initial post have taken people in the wrong direction with them hung up on thinking this about me choosing a car.

From your original post you seem to be looking for advice for what to buy or not to buy, at the end of the day its all about the track(s) you are planning to run on. National or International trends may be irrelevant at your track.

Buy a B44.2 and a C4.2 conversion for a B4.2 so the extra bits you can use to make a B4.2.

Thats every single type of useful car for someone who isn't winning national A finals, if you cant make those cars work, then clearly your PEBTAR...

Essentially....The best car for you isn't about how fast it goes!

Ignore that I am looking at move to racing 10th or in fact ignore that it could be used as one of the tools/sources of information available to people who are looking to purchase a new car at all really! Me considering my options is only what led me to think about what other valid ways could there be to gauge a car/manufacturer (or other piece of equipments) performance on a wider level that allows the law of averages to take effect and level out the anomalous data gained through some of the other more localized variables/trends involved.

I also see another point of contrition amongst people on the point about leaving out data from pro/sponsored drivers. Upon reflection this was too undefined due to the points that Darren has made hear.

As for PRO's racing, none at our local club (at least not regular week in week out), a few local supported drivers, but no-one who is a national F1 and no-one who races on a professional level. If you are to exclude "sponsored" drivers of all sorts from what you are looking at achieving here you will need to exclude LOTS of racers since the number of "team" drivers of varying levels in some areas is quite large (too large IMHO) especially with the number of drivers being sponsored by the larger distributors now. Years ago, you had to "earn" a team drive and they were only given out to the very best privateers out there, now it seems that almost a pulse and a credit card gets you on the team in some cases. I have heard just this week of several teams now offering "C" drives to lower level drivers. Even at regional level it used to be a "few" sponsored drivers and then the very best privateers who were in the A final, now "sponsored" drivers of some sort go right down through the alphabet when the finals are run filling up the A-D and beyond.........

I suggested this in the aim of focusing in the data on a wider "more Average" levels of ability so as to be more relevant to the average driver.

Again on reflection if we are looking initially at minimizing the driver variable then the obvious place to start is actually at national level racing. Something along the lines of this -

The BRCA section could run something like the F1 Manufacturers championshipthis along side the normal "drivers" championships based on the results from the Nationals.

The points scoring system could be done in various different ways but to get the biggest scope of results I would say something along the lines of the the standard scoring system so more lower placed cars still get calculated into the results. Something like this should be quite easy to setup really and requires very minimal extra work involved by the host club with them simply noting the equipment of the point scoring cars and uploading it into an online database at the end of the event. This would then calcutate the current scores and championship positions of each manufacturers car or piece of equipment.

I think what i will do to save more arguments over confused or irrelevant points is I will look through the national results and see if I cant work a retrospective Manufacturers champion ship out for 2013. I will start another thread relating solely to achieving this.

I will probably need help getting details of what the different drivers were running but other than that I will work things out and share the information with people and once I do people can "debate" the validity or why's and where fores of the information as much as they like. I'll then sit back and enjoy the show with a nice mug of coco

Now lets let this thread die down (mods you can remove it if you like).

If anybody else is interested in helping me finding out the results of the first ever "retrospective" 1/10th off road Manufacturers results I'll see you at the other thread

[Danny Harrison]

Heres an objective insight into 1 brand of car I keep noticing.

That brand is the yokomo.

Every driver I know locally (both low to good standard) got significantly quicker with the 2wd car. From their explanations it seems its very easy to drive and very forgiving. Quote "it just seems to work well everywhere"
Also the 4wd yokomo my good friend just got. I usually lap him once or twice with my 44.2. On his debut with the car he was much closer to me on pace and did not get lapped.

If you want a car that is definitely going to be easy to drive then you wont go wrong with Yokomo.

This is completely un biased as I run Associated and may run Losi in the near future