Lipos, how to get approval.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

Mark, are you sure about that statement?

Any specific bit ?

[andy110m]

From what I understand its £40 per submission and multiple batteries can be in one submission.

So in effect the BRCA is losing out on the £40.

I agree its down to the members getting to the AGM and pushing through the change. The really good point made earlier about encouraging new blood to progress is well made. If a lad and dad team consider regionals but see their gear isn't approved they're only likely to race at club level.

Mike's point about the BRCA having more members is also a good one but the BRCA feed into EFRA, an IFMAR block, ROAR is EFRA's equivalent again being one of the IFMAR blocks so its on that basis I consider them a higher authority.

Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?

[wookieewonder]

Don't forget the motor list too!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Er the BRCA do not ban anything. The BRCA apply rules as voted for by the racers, is you.. If you sit at home on the last Sunday in every October then blame yourself!!
All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you. That's laid down in general rules.
The sections we race in may choose to use the EB list of approved batteries for that section, again voted for by the racers, there is no legislation that sections have to use the EB list. If the voters vote not to use the EB list, they do not have to.

Sorry, the intimation that brca insuranfe covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by dwp102

When is the next agm?

Last Sunday in October has been for years

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by andy110m

Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?

Yes no section is forced to use the EB list, its decided by the section, and if a proposal manages to make it to the agm,and is voted in favour of your rule, thats it. No EB list rule for that section.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

Sorry, the intimation that brca insuranfe covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.

??? Is that insurance?
I said. "All hard case lipos can be used in all BRCA clubs and the BRCA insurance covers you" which means weather you use lipo of the EB list or not on the EB list it does not invalidate your BRCA liability insurance. The clubs can if they wish to stipulate the use off only BRCA EB list lipo. Its only when your classed as the importer for the cells the insurance company may fall back on you and you become responsibe for the non uk/eu suported pack
As I said read the general rules and Jim's bit on insurance.

[Mike Haswell]

And if it was a faulty lipo then that brings us back to Product Liability and you can be certain the insurance company will be looking to collect....! Wouldn't want to be in your shoes when they find out it was one you imported yourself.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by DCM

Sorry, the intimation that brca insurance covers you if you use homologated batteries and motors.

It's in the BRCA Handbook, in the General Rules. The BRCA, and therefore the insurance, defines an r/c car as no more than 1m long, no more than 20kg in weight and no more than 30cc engine capacity. There is no restriction on power source, voltage, motor size.

If the section even votes to allow cheap soft packs or to run on 100volts then the insurance will still cover you.

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by andy110m

Mike's point about the BRCA having more members is also a good one but the BRCA feed into EFRA, an IFMAR block, ROAR is EFRA's equivalent again being one of the IFMAR blocks so its on that basis I consider them a higher authority.

Then can we presume you also rate FEMCA and FAMAR higher authorities than the BRCA as well?

The BRCA is responsible for the majority of rules we race all the way up to international level, most of the rules were created by the BRCA and then adopted by EFRA and IFMAR.
ROAR is unique in going their own way with their own rules, for example to be ROAR legal all buggies must be able to run a full size pack, which is why a lot of US drivers were surprised at the worlds to see buggies the rest of the world uses that will only fit a shorty pack.
BRCA rules also all have to be ratified by the members by voting at the AGM. ROAR rules are discussed and created by their committee, the ordinary members have no say in the rules.

There's also the problem of allowing use of a ROAR legal battery that is only available in the USA, or a FEMCA legal battery that is only available in Japan. If it's not bought in the UK you personally are liable as the importer if anything goes wrong, for example say the lipo catches fire due to a fault or battery damage. If your garage burns down because a faulty battery was in there, your insurance company will pay out then pursue the importer to claim on their liability insurance to get their money back - in this case they would then either go after you for their insurance payout, or refuse to pay your claim.

Can I check something someone posted earlier. Can the off road section vote to not be governed by the EB list completely? If so what would happen in that case, just a rule saying 2S hard case lipos?

If the off road section voted to not use the EB lists at all, then the section can do whatever it wants like several other sections already do. Although if the rules to use the EB lists are removed completely someone had better consider adding definitions for batteries allowed as the only other rule is that the battery has a maximum voltage of 7.4v otherwise you could use any battery chemistry of any size and shape as long as the battery has no more than 7.4v, and everyone could use oversize 12000mah packs instead.

The correct way to do it would be to remove rule

25.3 Cells and batteries can only be used if they are included on the BRCA (EB) homologation list at the time of the event

while keeping the rule

25.2 The description, specification and types of rechargeable batteries approved for use in Off-Road Sanctioned events can be found in the section entitled "BRCA Electric Board"

so all batteries used are limited to the same size and type we currently use, but without homologation.

[Adam F]

Reading the above, it sounds like some think the list is part of a conspiracy to make us buy more expensive lipos!!

It's there for our safety is it not? Whilst I agree that some cheaper brands are fine, there will always be the odd rogue supplier that may be selling something potentially dangerous..

When a problem arises with one of these I would want more comeback than some bloke that has imported them, basically a company to go after to get some pennies...

[Chris56]

The point regarding the "importer" is an interesting read.

Where does Hobbyking stand with all of this? They now have a UK warehouse which can supply Turnigy and Zippy LIPOs. Both brands are highly regarded and are widely used. Lets say that one of those goes pop but it was purchased through Hobbyking UK, where would the liability stand?

[andy110m]

Terry, your suggestion on the rules looks spot on to me.

Why might it struggle to get to a vote. If a person proposes it and someone else seconds it, surely it gets to the AGM for a vote?

Or is there some procedure I'm missing?

[LongRat]

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe - if that was the case they shouldn't be on sale at all.
The list is for the fairness of competition, rightly or wrongly. My interpretation is that if a battery is on the list, it is commercially available in the UK and as such any competitor has an equal chance of using it, and winning races. It rules out military spec batteries with higher energy densities that are not available to the general public, for example.

The question that I think needs to be answered is, must the importer be the person to submit a battery for homologation? As a private individual why can't anyone buy some batteries from a UK importer and ship them to the BRCA for homologation? They simply absorb the homologation cost from the importer, who may be completely disinterested in bothing with BRCA homologation.

[DCM]

Currently, batteries give out far more power than we can use, so mil spec batteries won't help you, now, mil spec electronics that significantly increase efficiency is a different matter.

[LongRat]

If that was true, why do people pay so much for '100C' batteries and more?
Especially as motor winds are restricted in most race classes, this simply isn't the case in my opinion. If there was a super low IR cell available that some individuals could buy but others could not, there is no question those lucky few would be at an advatage. The other guys are not allowed to drop a couple of turns on the motor to stay with them, are they? This is the reason for the homologated list in my opinion.

[Chris56]

This topic has been debated before. Personally I think the EB list for LIPOs was initially drawn up with safety in mind, as there was great uncertainty as to have safe LIPOs were. Now that we have all been using LIPOs for quite some a few years, its now time to re-evaluate.

There are now several cheaper brands on the market now that, although not tested through the BRCA process, have been proven safe through useage at club level. For me, the only requirement should be that they are hard-cased (and possibly purchased through a UK distributor).

If I am correct (which I might not been since I have never attended the BRCA AGM!!) the reason the rules havn't changed is because nobody has made a proposal at the AGM for the rules to be changed. This debate will continue and repeat several times on Oople, but the EB rules will only change if somebody takes it to the AGM as a formal proposal.

Just my rambings - don't shoot!

[Adam F]

Originally Posted by LongRat

I don't think the list is for safety reasons. That would imply that anything not on the list is unsafe

Not quite, It would only imply that batteries not on the list were untested .

[DCM]

Originally Posted by LongRat

If that was true, why do people pay so much for '100C' batteries and more?
Especially as motor winds are restricted in most race classes, this simply isn't the case in my opinion. If there was a super low IR cell available that some individuals could buy but others could not, there is no question those lucky few would be at an advatage. The other guys are not allowed to drop a couple of turns on the motor to stay with them, are they? This is the reason for the homologated list in my opinion.

Simply not the case, if you look at the power rating of a motor and a lipo, most, if not all proper race packs have a much greater rms and pmpo power rating than any bwr maybe the really haìry chested mod motors, this ìs why you are now seeing more 4wd cars being designed around the shorty lipo. If you could theoretically have an esc with no resistance all you would end up doing is roasting motors.

As for the homologation process, it would be interesting to know what they do in respect to cell testing, is it just physical dimensions and voltage?

[SlowOne]

The EB list is populated by cells that have been submitted by importers and distributors. This ensures that you can buy the product from an EU source with a product liability in place. We have already had one instance where a driver personally importing a cell and having an incident with it is left holding the baby.

Cells are measured in accordance with the rules as written, and checks are also made on construction as I understand it to ensure that, for example, the case won't split apart when you look at it!

Yes, you can run to any rules a Section agrees to as regards the EB requirements. Over the years 12th have variously run to rules like allowing any rotor (when rotors were restricted by the EB list) and allowing any hard-case cell under £25 before the 'sport' list came in.

Instead of banging on endlessly about it on here, why doesn't someone say they will put forward a proposal at your Section AGM. All the information you need is on the BRCA site under the EB 'Section'. Terry.SC's proposal looks like the right course of action - JFDI?!!!