BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[Dudders]

Interested to see any stats on budget cells compared to high end cells blowing up

[orinoco]

Here are links to both the BRCA lipo homologation standards and also the ROAR homologation standards. Personally they look pretty dam similar and it seems that really homologation does in no way guarantee a lipo battery is safer than one which has not. Basically homologation means that the battery conforms to specified dimensions, weights and already has a UN safety certificate. Am I missing something? What is different about the ROAR and BRCA procedures? Surely any ROAR approved battery will meet the BRCA standards. The BRCA homologation issue just seems like a way of making our choice of batteries narrower and more expensive.....no? http://www.brca.org/content/battery-...procedure/1399 and ROAR... http://www.roarracing.com/wp-content...l_20130712.pdf

[RobW]

It's a myth that the EB list only includes expensive cells.

I am still running Gen Ace cells I bought new from a UK supplier 2 years ago for the grand sum of £22.50 each. They are still on the list although I think the price may may gone upto £24.50.

If you are on a budget or like me not capable enough to notice any difference in lipo performance then the answer is easy - buy the cheaper ones off the list. Saying that I've never lost a race because car was too slow

Rob

[DCM]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

Every, and I mean EVERY LiPo fire I have seen (that is two in total since they have been brought in) have never EVER been the manufactures fault, both were user error, one wasn't fitted into a touring car correctly, got damaged and caught fire the second one was charged incorrectly. Now, looking at it that way, no EB list would prevent those failures. The only thing an EB list can do is to give a paper trail back to an insurance policy in theory. But, with the great interweb, you can buy said BRCA homologated cell from Asia, distributor is home and free and the onus is then on the imported (the user) for any insurance claim. HOW in any right mind does that affect the usability etc of a cell.

As for nationals, first you must get a decent F grading to be able to get a place, so your average racer is only ever, at best, going to get a one off or a reserve and if you are intent on attending a full season, then the cost of EB homologated equipment is minor, but, and this is where people tend to forget..... All those crap cells that get sold off second hand etc go into the hands of budget racers, personally, I would much rather see them use new than knackered old.

Maybe, just maybe, Regional clubs can agree themselves if they adopt rules other than general construction.... I know that where I am, we don't have enough people to put a full event on, let alone scrutineering etc. Regionals is a stepping stone, we all agree that, but the format and shape of that stone seems to have a lot of variants!

[cmgreen]

Originally Posted by smokes

The rostrum run would rule out regionals at Batley

Not a bad thing then

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

100% agree.....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Steve.T

I agree totally with Tony's first comment that we should run national rules at regional level making it easier to make the transition to national level.

However, the lipo issue is a little more complex. Lipo's are expensive to the extent that almost all of mine are second hand.
Cheap lipo's would seem to be the answer and as for them blowing up, isn't that what lipo bags are for?
I haven't seen the list of lipo's that are currently approved so there maybe some which are cheaper for those on a budget.
Also, if a lipo is on the list one year but then not the next does it suddenly mean that they are liable to explode. Some of us cannot change batteries from one year to the next.

Ready, Aim, Fire

they do not come off the list they stay on, that's why the original old gold trakpower cells are still on there

[mark christopher]

if you don't use a list, when a new cell is released, there will be a tendancy for everyone to buy one , it happens with spec classes re motors that are added when the come not annually

[Si Coe]

What concerns me is that there is a big disparity right now between the 'national' driver and the 'sunday club' driver. One wants super serious rules, everything to spec etc, whilst the other wants somewhere to spend Sunday avoiding the wife and kids whilst playing with toy cars.

Regionals are supposed to bridge that gap so realistically they should be more serious than a club meeting but well short of a national. They are meant to be the chance for the average Joe's to get to play with the big boys but over restrictive rules will shut them out.

The issue here is that club drivers tend to be notoriously bad at stuff like going to the AGM, so their viewpoint is rarely considered. This doesn't normally matter as most clubs don't run club meetings to full national rules anyway - but some of the points being raised could impact on 'sunday drivers'. National level drivers - though fewer in number - care more and are used to traveling, so their views are disproportionally represented compared to how many there actually are.

I suspect if voting without having to attend the AGM did exist many decisions would go rather differently.

Not a criticism of the system BTW - just an observation. After all I too could go to the AGM but won't be, so I can't blame anyone but myself.

EDIT - oh and cell / motor / chassis of the week is 99% down to people being sheep. No more, no less. Its incredibly rare the new product is so markedly better that you simple HAVE to have it. Its just that people flock to get the new thing.
So lets be clear this is not a rule to prevent someone getting an unfair advantage - its a rule to protect us from our own stupidity.

[SlowOne]

The BRCA Constitution is clear about what our role is.

(a) To promote the construction and racing of radio-controlled cars.
(b) To facilitate the exchange of information and ideas relating to the sport.
(c) To set rules and standards for construction and racing.
(d) To encourage National and International competition within a co-ordinated calendar.

It is not to promote club racing, but it would be senseless to ignore that fact that (d) would be impossible if there were no entrants, and those entrants start their RC life at a club.

For the club drivers to go down to a shop and buy a car that will be competitive at their local club, there has to be a set of rules. So we do (c) in order that those that just want to go down the club and thrash a car around to get away from things can do so safe in the knowledge that all the cars there can compete against each other.

Imagine there were no rules. That you went and bought a TC from Assoschumo, took it to the club and found yourself thrashed by an Xrarangomiya that is wider and has bigger wheels. Pissed off? You certainly would be! And next week, someone comes along with a completely different motor that is larger and more powerful and hands you your arse on a plate. And so on... How long does anyone think this sport would last if we did not do (c)?

So, having got our rules out there and a big choice of cars, got our Nationals organised and sent our drivers on to Euros and Worlds, we have to turn our attention to (b). What better way to promote our hobby than to have an arrive and drive track stocked with cars from most of the classes you can enter, and supported by a stand of cars from manufacturers you can go and buy now? We do that.

Frankly, the conduct of Nationals is neither here nor there in a real sense - whether your tracks have a raised pit lane or not is rather irrelevant compared to (b) (c) or (d). What is so important is that people go to the AGM and make sure that the Construction Rules are in place, sensible and create the platform for (b) and (c). To that end a discussion on accessibility to cells is waaayyy more important than something as trivial as a raised pit lane.

If you pay attention to your construction rules you influence manufacturers to produce items that anyone can buy and turn up to a club and race. In turn, clubs are free to state which rules they will run to - and the EB lists may not be one of them.

Construction Rules require a 2/3 majority of those voting to be amended, so ideas that have a divided opinion cannot sneak through by the odd vote (see General Rule 11) they have to have good levels of support.

How it works has been stated many times above. Nonetheless, it all starts by having people turn up. Share cars, walk, hitch-hike but please make every effort to get there. Where our most important role is concerned, your vote very definitely counts.

[DrPaul]

If the lipos are in hard cases then they all come out of four or five different factories in China/Taiwan and there is NO direct safety issues with them, its how they are charged that causes the problems.
If the BRCA want to control anything it should be how LIPOS are charged, at what current rate and what voltage depending on the LIPO and with what sort of charger and thats not going to happen is it.

Ive been an electronics design engineer for more years than I care to remember and its the current, rate and voltage you charge at that damages LIPOs not to mention the poorly designed electronics that is used to charge them. Dont be fooled by cheap verses expensive chargers either, some of the better chargers are not anywhere near the most expensive, its all about the accuracy of the charger and it delivering the current and voltage it says it is, how the lipo is stored and so on.

The safety aspect of lipos is totally un-policable due to the above reasons so lets not cloud the waters with statements about cheap lipos blowing up. Ive seen more BRCA approved cells go up in smoke this year due to a number of reasons than the so called cheap (Hobbyking) lipos used by so many club racers charged on "cheaper" chargers.

Back in the days of NiCads etc these also went bang from time to time and there was no governance for club and regional events of what brand had to be used. A no branded stick pack could be bought at any model shop and used and be charged correctly or incorrectly, so no different today, other than we realise charging in a safe LIPO sack is the right and safe thing to do.

People need to be encouraged to come racing, people have less disposable income, lets get back to making racing fun and affordable. Enforcing BRCA lipo and motor rules at club and regional level is not helping the hobby.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DrPaul

If the lipos are in hard cases then they all come out of four or five different factories in China/Taiwan and there is NO direct safety issues with them, its how they are charged that causes the problems.
If the BRCA want to control anything it should be how LIPOS are charged, at what current rate and what voltage depending on the LIPO and with what sort of charger and thats not going to happen is it.

Ive been an electronics design engineer for more years than I care to remember and its the current, rate and voltage you charge at that damages LIPOs not to mention the poorly designed electronics that is used to charge them. Dont be fooled by cheap verses expensive chargers either, some of the better chargers are not anywhere near the most expensive, its all about the accuracy of the charger and it delivering the current and voltage it says it is, how the lipo is stored and so on.

The safety aspect of lipos is totally un-policable due to the above reasons so lets not cloud the waters with statements about cheap lipos blowing up. Ive seen more BRCA approved cells go up in smoke this year due to a number of reasons than the so called cheap (Hobbyking) lipos used by so many club racers charged on "cheaper" chargers.

Back in the days of NiCads etc these also went bang from time to time and there was no governance for club and regional events of what brand had to be used. A no branded stick pack could be bought at any model shop and used and be charged correctly or incorrectly, so no different today, other than we realise charging in a safe LIPO sack is the right and safe thing to do.

People need to be encouraged to come racing, people have less disposable income, lets get back to making racing fun and affordable. Enforcing BRCA lipo and motor rules at club and regional level is not helping the hobby.

they may all come from a handful of manufactures, but they are defiantly not all the same quality. they have different grades.
could the fact you have seen more brca approved batteries is simply due to the percentages used?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

What concerns me is that there is a big disparity right now between the 'national' driver and the 'sunday club' driver. One wants super serious rules, everything to spec etc, whilst the other wants somewhere to spend Sunday avoiding the wife and kids whilst playing with toy cars.

Regionals are supposed to bridge that gap so realistically they should be more serious than a club meeting but well short of a national. They are meant to be the chance for the average Joe's to get to play with the big boys but over restrictive rules will shut them out.

The issue here is that club drivers tend to be notoriously bad at stuff like going to the AGM, so their viewpoint is rarely considered. This doesn't normally matter as most clubs don't run club meetings to full national rules anyway - but some of the points being raised could impact on 'sunday drivers'. National level drivers - though fewer in number - care more and are used to traveling, so their views are disproportionally represented compared to how many there actually are.

I suspect if voting without having to attend the AGM did exist many decisions would go rather differently.

Not a criticism of the system BTW - just an observation. After all I too could go to the AGM but won't be, so I can't blame anyone but myself.

EDIT - oh and cell / motor / chassis of the week is 99% down to people being sheep. No more, no less. Its incredibly rare the new product is so markedly better that you simple HAVE to have it. Its just that people flock to get the new thing.
So lets be clear this is not a rule to prevent someone getting an unfair advantage - its a rule to protect us from our own stupidity.

sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

[Si Coe]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

True - but it should also be noted that certainly in my region but I suspect others too if 100 drivers attend a regional realistically no more than 20 will be actively involved in national level racing. The other 80 will be mainly club drivers attending one of their few big meetings of the year.

And herein lies the dilemma: Make regionals too much like nationals and only those doing nationals will go to them BUT relax the rules too much and its really just a big club meeting. Regionals really only make sense with a set of rules bridging the two.

As for not entering regionals - around here it is considered good practice that the other clubs in the region close whenever there is a regional on to encourage people to attend. With up to 6 rounds thats a lot of missed meetings if you don't go.

[DCM]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

Lets just pick figures out of the air to justify a point we want to make hey??

In my region, there is maybe a handful of drivers who do/would do nationals the rest are club drivers enjoying racing outside of their local club, that would be children AND parents, so lets not try and dust it under the carpet WHO races and where. That's like saying that ONLY rich people go do nationals cause they are the ones who can afford it, all bollocks and smoke screens.

When it was forced on regions that they MUST ensure EB list was used, locally we had quite a few who either decided not to go or just stuck two fingers up to buying batteries to replace perfectly serviceable units just to suit a piece of paper. I for one have myself and two sons who race and another wanting to and a daughter dabbling her toe in, so there we go, lets say I even go for the cheap ones.... that's £150 expenditure to replace serviceable goods......

Si Coes and Dr Paul, I totally agree with you. I would really like to see the figures as to the relative incidences of cells.... guesses are there isn't one.

[mark christopher]

Keep ur wig on DCM, I mentioned no figures.....


Guess you will be at the egm with ur kids then to put your point accross...

[matdodd]

How many years has there been a EB lipo list now?

[DrPaul]

Mark you know better than this, you really dont need to be so condescending to racers who race for fun, some people actually do have lives outside RC racing!
Even though people want their say they may not have the time or funds to attend the AGM and have their voice heard and from experience they may feel even if they did their voice would not be listened to!

All the years I have been racing there are plenty that look forward to regional racing to get their F grading even though they never plan to race at national level. Nationals are for the few when club racing which is the heart of the hobby. Its easy to be elitist about nationals as no other racing matters, but without grass roots the hobby would die. These days the vast majority racing at national level seem to have some sort of support or sponsorship, any discount helps and makes it easy to forget how expensive racing can be. This year alone I have witnessed many racers not bothering with the regionals because they couldn't afford to replace perfectly good lipos and motors just to take part. Our own club ran a clubmans race non BRCA sanctioned alongside the regional and attracted just as good numbers.

Regionals need racers not more obstacles/rules to put people off entering them. All the clubs are run by volunteers, help them not hinder them!

[DCM]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

Keep ur wig on DCM, I mentioned no figures.....


Guess you will be at the egm with ur kids then to put your point accross...

You know what Mark, I would LOVE to be at the AGM but with work, family commitments and running a local car club myself, I have far FAR more important things to be doing than to attend a meeting, get pissed off and disheartened with the state of the hobby when I can come on here and read your comments and have it sat in me bundies under a duvet.....

So, whilst you will be pontificating about what rules to vote in/out for us great unwashed, I will be at club, setting up, booking drivers and trying to keep club racing alive in Cardiff, but I will feel really glad that you will be there fighting for the little club, thanks MArk []

What I will say is..... the BRCA needs drivers and member, and... not necessarily, drivers don't actually NEED the BRCA. Maybe, we should be all sent the proposals vie the fancy interweb through this funky electronic mail, a little system could be set up on their Web Portal and we could all lodge a vote, then we can ALL have the opportunity to have a say (and Mark can stop having nose bleeds riding his High Horse).

[DCM]

Originally Posted by matdodd

How many years has there been a EB lipo list now?

I fully understand the original requirement for a battery list in the days of 1200's, 1400's, 1700's, SC, SCE, SCR, SCR SP, then Panasonic, where you had to have 6 packs of cells to be competitive, but as time has gone on, and, as we are in an Off Road forum, where we have gone from having the power and not the duration to, now having more power and duration than we can shake a stick at, I see no advantage of the list apart from stopping stupid people jumping on a bandwagon of a cell cause it apparently has 120C discharge rate etc..... when they can't use the power of their 90C cells now.

I am sure there are sections that need it (stock class racing for instance), or stating that new technology (something different to LiPO) can't be used at a BRCA sanctioned event would suffice. I could even understand if the use of a list could be quantified as making things safer, but, whilst there are people who insist on charging over 1C, chargers being able to charge all sorts of cells, not auto-detecting etc..... sigh....

And to think, we used to charge using a 30 minute timer and resister.....