BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[Dazzler]

Originally Posted by Ben The Bike

Wouldn't it be easier if the rule was that the car and spare/tuning parts can't cost more than X amount total, again with receipts to prove it. So if you buy ridiculously expensive tyres, you won't be able to get a good motor.

If the lipos have to be checked so stringently, why don't the brca just have handout lipos that are all the same?

A picture says a thousand words.....

[Si Coe]

Comparing the old SCE days to now is a bit unrealistic because CELLS were approved not BATTERIES. It didn't matter what brand it was, just that they were Sanyo SCE's or Panasonic SCR etc.

Today though the same cells can be provided by multiple brands, with some brands legal and others not. Due to the way cells are made now its not so obvious those are Kokams or whoevers so the only way to police it is a list.

The problems isn't the list - its the way you get on the list. The requirement is that a UK importer provides the sample for inspection plus a fee. This means the only approved items are one with a UK distributor who is interested in racing.
But this is the 21st century - Why can't I buy stuff from China? And if I want to use it, why can't I submit it for approval? Just because I'm not an importer doesn't mean I can't ask if its OK - and if it is OK why can't it be approved? Why does it need a UK dealer when I can just as easily buy anywhere?

Oh - and yes I can tell you about potential new regional racers turned away because they didn't have approved list cells. Well not turned away because they never came on race day having already found out but its the same.
They bought non-EB list cells before they started racing, and their cells work perfectly well so even if they can get EB cells cheap why do so when the ones they have now are fine. The result is they just don't race regionals.

Finally I should point out that ROAR approve cells too. There are plenty of ROAR approved cells that aren't on the BRCA list because they've never been submitted.

[cmgreen]

Originally Posted by RudeTony

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

Spot on. I would rather the brca set a standard for regional tracks, get them up to standard. Even pay more to enter a regional if it helps the club put back into to track. There's one track in the ne that's been untouched for 10 years but still gets a regional, it's shocking!

[matdodd]

Originally Posted by DCM

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careuless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.

But if you had been buying cells off the list for the years we have had one, you wouldn't need to spend £160 now as all yoru cells would still be on it.
Therfore no extra cost and more money to pay the bills.

[DCM]

Some regions haven't run to the EB list for years and as it isn't a stock class, when my original LiPO's were on their last legs, knowing the battery wasn't the prime performance factor I made the decision to spend that money elsewhere, it is only this year that has been an issue.

I do agree that Regional tracks should be 'more' than a club day track, as a club organiser, our regional tracks are normally at least 100% bigger with wider lane widths etc so racers can have the 'feel' of a larger track to a national(ish) standard, but they shouldn't have to be concerning themselves with EB list unless they run at a national, as long as the motor is a 540 size and their battery is a 2S in a hard case does it really matter (and the argument of 'well they could be using super new cells'... let them carry on, more fool them if they have spent through the nose for something unnecessary, this is an OFF-ROAD specific issue).

Nationals were over-subscribed this year, and if I intend to run Nationals, or my lad does, then we would HAVE to re-invest and be compliant but as it stands, regional racing is just another way to have fun at low cost.

[Essex2Visuvesi]

Big issue here is that 90% of all lipo cells (the squidgy bags inside the case) are all manufactured in the same factories

[matdodd]

Originally Posted by DCM

Some regions haven't run to the EB list for years and as it isn't a stock class, when my original LiPO's were on their last legs, knowing the battery wasn't the prime performance factor I made the decision to spend that money elsewhere, it is only this year that has been an issue.

I do agree that Regional tracks should be 'more' than a club day track, as a club organiser, our regional tracks are normally at least 100% bigger with wider lane widths etc so racers can have the 'feel' of a larger track to a national(ish) standard, but they shouldn't have to be concerning themselves with EB list unless they run at a national, as long as the motor is a 540 size and their battery is a 2S in a hard case does it really matter (and the argument of 'well they could be using super new cells'... let them carry on, more fool them if they have spent through the nose for something unnecessary, this is an OFF-ROAD specific issue).

Nationals were over-subscribed this year, and if I intend to run Nationals, or my lad does, then we would HAVE to re-invest and be compliant but as it stands, regional racing is just another way to have fun at low cost.

I would suggest you have a chat with your regional rep then DCM as my understanding is that the EB list hasn't been a regional variation rule in the past (correct me if I'm wrong) so potentially what your saying is the rules haven't been enforced in the past and due to that your now potentially out of pocket.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by matdodd

But if you had been buying cells off the list for the years we have had one, you wouldn't need to spend £160 now as all yoru cells would still be on it.
Therfore no extra cost and more money to pay the bills.

my point exactly

Originally Posted by matdodd

I would suggest you have a chat with your regional rep then DCM as my understanding is that the EB list hasn't been a regional variation rule in the past (correct me if I'm wrong) so potentially what your say is the rules haven't been enforced in the past and due to that your new potentially out of pocket.

how I understood it too, I feel some may have only just had it pointed out they should be using the list....

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

Comparing the old SCE days to now is a bit unrealistic because CELLS were approved not BATTERIES. It didn't matter what brand it was, just that they were Sanyo SCE's or Panasonic SCR etc.

Today though the same cells can be provided by multiple brands, with some brands legal and others not. Due to the way cells are made now its not so obvious those are Kokams or whoevers so the only way to police it is a list.

The problems isn't the list - its the way you get on the list. The requirement is that a UK importer provides the sample for inspection plus a fee. This means the only approved items are one with a UK distributor who is interested in racing.
But this is the 21st century - Why can't I buy stuff from China? And if I want to use it, why can't I submit it for approval? Just because I'm not an importer doesn't mean I can't ask if its OK - and if it is OK why can't it be approved? Why does it need a UK dealer when I can just as easily buy anywhere?

Oh - and yes I can tell you about potential new regional racers turned away because they didn't have approved list cells. Well not turned away because they never came on race day having already found out but its the same.
They bought non-EB list cells before they started racing, and their cells work perfectly well so even if they can get EB cells cheap why do so when the ones they have now are fine. The result is they just don't race regionals.

Finally I should point out that ROAR approve cells too. There are plenty of ROAR approved cells that aren't on the BRCA list because they've never been submitted.

Originally Posted by Essex2Visuvesi

Big issue here is that 90% of all lipo cells (the squidgy bags inside the case) are all manufactured in the same factories

when the cells are submitted, they also need data paper work from the manufacture, that includes who makes the bits in the box.... all data is held by the brca so they know what is in each box.

[dwp102]

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by dwp102

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

there off the list so there ok, same as if a European comes to race in uk, his cells are on the list, bought in his country, all ok

[DCM]

Originally Posted by dwp102

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

They use this

9. Approval does not engage the BRCA towards any guarantees or responsibilities. The submitter will defend,
indemnify and hold the BRCA harmless from and against any and all liabilities, damages, losses, claims, fines,
penalties, assessments, demands, actions, suits and judgments, including all fees, costs and expenses incidental
thereto, that may be charged to, asserted against or incurred by the BRCA by reason of any loss, damage or
injury of any kind or nature whatsoever in any manner or to any extent resulting from or arising out of the articles
or services approved by the BRCA for use during BRCA events except to the extent resulting solely and directly
from the BRCA’s gross negligence or wilful misconduct.

And as you have brought it in from overseas and not through the correct channel, then I am guessing all the above falls on you....

[dwp102]

So the bottom line is this...you could in theory buy a set of batteries on the approved list, and still not have any insurance if they blow up in your face? In which case this surely begs the question...what is the purpose of the battery list again?!

[terry.sc]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

there off the list so there ok, same as if a European comes to race in uk, his cells are on the list, bought in his country, all ok

I'm sure the official importer who has been bypassed would have a different opinion regarding any insurance claim.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by terry.sc

I'm sure the official importer who has been bypassed would have a different opinion regarding any insurance claim.

That's as maybe, but how many can actually provide a reciept or proof of where the cell was bought from? Does that make second hand cells even tho on the list not approved?
It's is the pack that's approved.

Your brca insurance is still valiad even if the cells are in on the eb list, the problems comes when the insurance proves. It was a Lipo fault over a user issue, and who they claim thier loss back from.

[Si Coe]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

when the cells are submitted, they also need data paper work from the manufacture, that includes who makes the bits in the box.... all data is held by the brca so they know what is in each box.

I'm sure - but it still doesn't mean you can use them if they have the wrong sticker on them!

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by Si Coe

I'm sure - but it still doesn't mean you can use them if they have the wrong sticker on them!

yup has to be as pictured on the list,

[DCM]

Right, on the feeling I will get an email from above.... your BRCA insurance does not cover you for anything other than an incident within the confines of the track. So, if whilst charging (in the lipo sack of course), for one reason or another your lipo goes up in smoke, this is where buying them comes into play. If you have brought in the charger from overseas and it is the fault, you are liable, if you buy from a UK shop, then you have trace back for liability, exactly the same for your battery etc, hence my above post.

ALL cells that are transported HAVE to pass the same NATO testing procedure which is something that at least ROAR and the BRCA request to see proof of when they are homologating. So, if your battery has come from abroad to a UK seller and is not homologated, it WILL have gone through the same rigorous testing process as all those on the EB list, the only difference is a distributor/manufacturer has deemed it profitable to at the up front fee and lose one battery as a sample to gain sales it may not get if it wasn't. Hobbking are obviously selling plenty already and don't feel that by doing so they would make enough sales to pay the admin costs.

Anyways, after a busy club day, how did the AGM go, did the track proposals go through, dropping the EB list??

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

Right, on the feeling I will get an email from above.... your BRCA insurance does not cover you for anything other than an incident within the confines of the track. So, if whilst charging (in the lipo sack of course), for one reason or another your lipo goes up in smoke, this is where buying them comes into play. If you have brought in the charger from overseas and it is the fault, you are liable, if you buy from a UK shop, then you have trace back for liability, exactly the same for your battery etc, hence my above post.

ALL cells that are transported HAVE to pass the same NATO testing procedure which is something that at least ROAR and the BRCA request to see proof of when they are homologating. So, if your battery has come from abroad to a UK seller and is not homologated, it WILL have gone through the same rigorous testing process as all those on the EB list, the only difference is a distributor/manufacturer has deemed it profitable to at the up front fee and lose one battery as a sample to gain sales it may not get if it wasn't. Hobbking are obviously selling plenty already and don't feel that by doing so they would make enough sales to pay the admin costs.

Anyways, after a busy club day, how did the AGM go, did the track proposals go through, dropping the EB list??

even though the cost is £40 and that covers how ever many batteries you send!

so for £40 they could have all their hard case 1s and 2s approved!! Some admin cost!!



7. There will be an homologation fee for each submission received (there can be more than one battery in each
submission). The fee is £25.00 for 1S submissions and £40.00 for 2S submissions or combinations of 1S & 2S.

[Mark A]

For those who could not get to the AGM , there was a lengthy discussion on the battery list.
I've asked sir Paul to put some info out in print to advice you the driver why the list etc and also about the responabilties of product liability and how it effects you, to clarify a few things once and for all