Vader says 'Yes' to LIPO

[vader]

LIPO's are the future.

So, why do so many say 'No'

Vader

[DCM]

Because there is such a randmomness on build quality, safety and useability of the cells. Until a construction rule in place, they can be as safe as NiMH or as dangerous as an old live WWII bomb.

[vader]

Surely companies such as Team Orion, FlightPower and now LRP have 'safety tested' their products before they sell them to Jo public?

Has anyone ever experienced any problems with any of the following products:-

1. FlightPower Trakpower 4900mAh
2. Team Orion Platinuim 4800mAh
3. Team Orion Carbon 3200mAh

I'm sure as with everything, if the batteries are correctly used there shouldn't be a problem. Same for Nitro fuel etc...

Vade

[DCM]

But the problem with LiPo is, that with every new generation of Sub-C cell, you could still get away with your last charger, with LiPo, MOST won't be able to, simple as, and to try to do is just a disaster.

Also, just do a search for LiPo on eBay, and the amount of uncased gel packs you can buy, this is where safety and construction regulations laid down by the governing bodies will need to come in play. As the current situation stands, if a club or championship series allows LiPo cells, you could easily turn up with a seriously sub standard cell.

Also, the cells are all rated at different discharge rates to. So until there is a specific construction regs, it is open to some serious H+S issue's. I can also see that the BRCA might recomend a charging pound, so if there was an issue, chances are, most are out of the way.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against them, and will make a fundamental change in the way we race elecrtic, but I don't think for the slightest, that companies will start to find ways of 'matching' cell performance.

[mark christopher]

they are not understaood

i have 4 trakpower, and loan em out at the sheffield biws, i run one pack myself, and have had no problem. i took a front corner completly off my xray while flat out on the straight, lipo was fine

chargers can be had for £30 ish

clubs are covered by the brca to use em (insurance)
the best way is to only allow packs in manufactures casing

some of us (trakpower drivers) were asked to abuse our lipos while testing

this ranged from charging at 10 amp (lipo only charger) and hard hits/jumps.
no problems at all

three main rules with lipo
only use lipo charger
dont discharge below 6 volt, some speedo's have this feature, device can be bought from novak/trakpower
let em cool if warm before charging

DCM i would hardly class nimh as safe! a young lady on rcracechat has poss lost one eye and had reduced vision in the other, from nimh exploding.
the current 4200 are poping like WWII bombs!

[bert digler]

Originally Posted by mark christopher

they are not understaood

i have 4 trakpower, and loan em out at the sheffield biws, i run one pack myself, and have had no problem. i took a front corner completly off my xray while flat out on the straight, lipo was fine

chargers can be had for £30 ish

clubs are covered by the brca to use em (insurance)
the best way is to only allow packs in manufactures casing

some of us (trakpower drivers) were asked to abuse our lipos while testing

this ranged from charging at 10 amp (lipo only charger) and hard hits/jumps.
no problems at all

three main rules with lipo
only use lipo charger
dont discharge below 6 volt, some speedo's have this feature, device can be bought from novak/trakpower
let em cool if warm before charging

DCM i would hardly class nimh as safe! a young lady on rcracechat has poss lost one eye and had reduced vision in the other, from nimh exploding.
the current 4200 are poping like WWII bombs!

i heard it was a lipo at ameeting today please confirm this as you probably have the most valid argument for legalising lipos then also dont u think there is an econaomic factor in not making these things legal for use ie u dont need five packs of batteries to race just top up the lipo and mr modelshop if there are any left sells u these products

[mark christopher]

not sure i understand your post, but, no it was not a lipo, was defo nimh

you you only need one lipo pack for a day

you could say same about brushless, no com lathe, no springs, no brushes, no dynos, no coolers...............

http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27232

Luckily he was in a different room when there was a very loud bang. He went to have a look and found the pack split into many pieces and black dust everywhere. Some cells looked normal, some had puffed out and leaked goo, one (in the centre of the pic) has opened put with no sign of the contents, and one is MIA!
It smashed a battery box 30cm away, damaged a microwave on the other side of the room, 1 cell burnt through the floor, 1 positive button burnt through a cloth on the other side of the room, there are lots of mesh like bits stuck in the ceiling as seen in the 2nd pic, and black stuff everywhere.
They were charged as normal, 6amps 15mv for the pack, there were on from equalised for about 30 mins.
I have heard far to many things about exploding 42's :eek:





http://www.rcracechat.com/vb/showpos...6&postcount=36

Thankyou Neil for those kind words mate i have asked my mom to do a statement for me and to post it on here so if any mistakes PLEASE DO NOT SHOUT AT MY MOM as she does not use pc;s;


this is savagemachine mom replied on behalf of her

thanks to all of you for your concern and nice words it is really appreciated i was released from gloucester hospital late tuesday evening and now back home my eyesight in the right eye is back to 90% unfortunally the sight in the left is none at all as the damage to the left eye is more than the right my face has few burns on it but will heal overtime i have to go back to gloucester hospital next tuesday so hopefully will have more informatoin then once again many thanks and hopefully will be back out on the track again

Savagemachine


I will keep you all updated on how my progress goes;

This is what can happen when leaning over a buggy when a hump pack explodes OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PaulRotheram]

omfg

[DCM]

I have heard many stories of this, and most often, the cell has already vented and people come and look or leave them on charge, and so often, people also leave batteries on charge and leave them completely unatended. Now, not trying to tar all with the same brush, but often, a lack of common sense and people curiosity cause the damage, when a shell should of been left well alone.

If these incidents continue to happen, then the same would have to happen with NiMH's. Saying that, in the 18 years of racing, I have not had one cell explode on me, had plenty vent, but then they have been disposed of.

Mark, regards BRCA and insurance, you couldn't be further from the truth. BRCA insurance only covers you from damage within the confines of the track, any incidents, outside of the courdoned area of the track is not covered, as hard as this is to accept, that is how it is.

[mark christopher]

Originally Posted by DCM

I have heard many stories of this, and most often, the cell has already vented and people come and look or leave them on charge, and so often, people also leave batteries on charge and leave them completely unatended. Now, not trying to tar all with the same brush, but often, a lack of common sense and people curiosity cause the damage, when a shell should of been left well alone.

If these incidents continue to happen, then the same would have to happen with NiMH's. Saying that, in the 18 years of racing, I have not had one cell explode on me, had plenty vent, but then they have been disposed of.

Mark, regards BRCA and insurance, you couldn't be further from the truth. BRCA insurance only covers you from damage within the confines of the track, any incidents, outside of the courdoned area of the track is not covered, as hard as this is to accept, that is how it is.

odd as your not covered for marshalling either. and actually you have third party laibility up to £100000 in a car park, thats the cover i mean

read all thread, he tell you how it was charged

[DCM]

You are covered whilst marshalling, as that is in the confines of the race circuit, pit area, you are not. I don't think it is a 'Public Liability' policy, more specific to the track.

[super__dan]

I'm not against them as such, I do have a problem that they are 7.4V I believe, so it's just not comparrable to the class rules we run to.

[TRF_Tastic]

Looks like the same old thread repeated again.

This is my opinion, and as such I hope you will all respect my views.

Lipo is an illegal battery source for our cars, if we want to race competition, I agree with this as a policy, as there are too many different styles and models of battery out there at the moment. There are no definitive standards for the cells and as such there are far too many variations on a form, until this is resolved and we have a standard we should all stop medeling, this is a governing body issue, and the lead here should be taken at a world wide level with consultations to the different regional governing bodies.

I have seen at first hand both types of battery explode a Nimh at a track and a laptop battery at an airport and I can tell you that the more dangerous one was the laptop battery by far, both were tried and tested constructions, both failed so where do we go. We can only make things so safe, there will be a talented idiot out there who will cause an acident we cant stop him all we can do is try and make it as safe as possible, this is where regulatory standards will come in.

Mark in reply and by no means take this as a slight, I think that you will find that trakpower are neglegent in what they are asking you to do, what if you are injured whilst testing there cells? Are you insured or are you going to file a lawsuit against them? for loss of earnings injury etc etc... It is the companys responsibilty to test these things to ensure that they are safe, not you.

Lipo is not a crusade, it will happen, but only at the right pace, I for one will not support a change until there is proper regulatory standards in place for the cells as there are with sub C. At this point I will welcome change and look forward to the day when I dont have to spend out on new cells every 12 months.

[super__dan]

Originally Posted by TRF_Tastic

Looks like the same old thread repeated again.

This is my opinion, and as such I hope you will all respect my views.

Lipo is an illegal battery source for our cars, if we want to race competition, I agree with this as a policy, as there are too many different styles and models of battery out there at the moment. There are no definitive standards for the cells and as such there are far too many variations on a form, until this is resolved and we have a standard we should all stop medeling, this is a governing body issue, and the lead here should be taken at a world wide level with consultations to the different regional governing bodies.

I have seen at first hand both types of battery explode a Nimh at a track and a laptop battery at an airport and I can tell you that the more dangerous one was the laptop battery by far, both were tried and tested constructions, both failed so where do we go. We can only make things so safe, there will be a talented idiot out there who will cause an acident we cant stop him all we can do is try and make it as safe as possible, this is where regulatory standards will come in.

Mark in reply and by no means take this as a slight, I think that you will find that trakpower are neglegent in what they are asking you to do, what if you are injured whilst testing there cells? Are you insured or are you going to file a lawsuit against them? for loss of earnings injury etc etc... It is the companys responsibilty to test these things to ensure that they are safe, not you.

Lipo is not a crusade, it will happen, but only at the right pace, I for one will not support a change until there is proper regulatory standards in place for the cells as there are with sub C. At this point I will welcome change and look forward to the day when I dont have to spend out on new cells every 12 months.

What a great, well reasoned post!

[DCM]

Couldn't of said it better!!!

[jimmy]

LiPo will only happen if people want it - thats how it works, (medelling?). There were people MORE than happy to ban brushless would you beleive - the reasons they are now allowed most places is NOTHING to do with the brca, its because people wanted to run them and the BRCA listened and applied their sense. I agree there need to be rules, not to protect us from the GOOD, but to protect us from the BAD - but lets not tar all products with one brush.

[TRF_Tastic]

Jimmy I agree, however brushless is no where near the same potential danger zone that batteries lie in. But Brushless has only taken off as and when the systems became a more viable alternative to brushed. I still think that we are several evolutions away from what will be considered the norm by all and sundry.

As with anything there does seem to be people running around with what I can only describe as questionable motives, hence the medelling comment and these people pop up time and time again when this topic is raised.

I personaly dont think that Lipo is the future however Nimh isnt either, I think that there will be better alternative technologys that will serve our needs much better, I just dont know when and I dont know what.

"The ultimate miracle battery is nowhere in sight and the battery remains the 'weak link' for the foreseeable future. As long as the battery is based on an electro-chemical process, limitations of power density and short life expectancy must be taken into account. We must adapt to this constraint and design the equipment around it." Exert taken from "Batteries in a portable world" I think that this sums up this debate nicely.

[DCM]

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.

[jimmy]

I thought you were talking about things from a racing, cost, fairness pov.. which is fair enough... Thats where the brushless / lipo comparison laid.

I think the safety argument is over blown personally. Everyone is entitled to their opinions - racing isn't an entirely "safe" thing, there are many ways to injure yourself, we do our best to avoid them and use caution and common sense.

I think most of us are alredy LiPo users, and regularly stick them next to our ears - so lets not be too hasty in condemning a technology. Bur regardless of what any of us think, things will move on, lipo will grow until the next big thing comes along - there is simply nothing anyone can do or say to stop that. The BRCA won't stop it, thats for sure.

[jimmy]

Originally Posted by DCM

Thats it, it is far easier and cheaper to buy bad LiPo (for racing) than it is to buy a good one for racing, hence the need for rules and regs, once thay are in, great. Also, until there has been enough of an overlap, built in voltage cut-outs, so stop people running them low.

Totally agree with you DCM. Pepople need to use this technology for those improvements to come about. The BRCA won't make rules on something no one uses.