BRCA Insurance

[knighthawk]

Just a conversation with a friend who attended the BRCA 8th Nitro Nationals at Wakefield !!

At the Drivers/Marshals Meeting at the beginning of the meeting they were all told to Marshal as you would like to be Marshaled !

Nothing new in this you say ! I Agree

But to add to this comment was said, you are only insured by the BRCA Insurance whilst you are at you Marshal Point, Not when you go to marshal a car which needs help !
So be careful as you Marshal the Cars at your own risk !!

Basically WTF

Surely this can't be right, you can't Marshal from your post to remain insured, the whole point of the insurance for me ( and my children ) is the fact you are insured if something does go wrong !!

The way it was said to me when I was racing 8th Nitro that everybody that races at a track inside the track perimeter ( catch fencing ) has to be insured to be able to enter this area because of insurance !

If known you are only insured at the post and not to Marshal, the this negates the point of Marshaling and the cost of the insurance for racers !




Thoughts and Comments Please !!!!!!!!!

[mattybucks]

I think that if your concerned then you should approach the BRCA directly. They should be able to clear it up for you.

[Craig]

It's allways been the same.....if you leave the safety of the marshal point you have made that decision/risk assessment on your own, if you feel that it is safe to go your on your own.

On another note if you want a "fun" marshalling experience at a tc track in mendip you are in the fence in a small stall at the fastest part of the track, that makes you run!

[terry.sc]

Yes, you are insured at your marshalling point because you have to be there and your safety there is the clubs responsibility. Stepping on to the track to marshal it is assumed you have enough sense to not step out in front of an approaching car, in the same way you won't be able to claim on the drivers insurance if you deliberately step out in front of a 1:1 car.

You need BRCA membership to insure you while you are driving, if your car shoots off and injures someone or something such as the 1:1 cars around the track, your BRCA insurance will cover it.

If you think that if you can't work you could end up losing your house, then you should already have your own personal accident insurance which would cover being hit by an r/c car. After all, breaking an ankle by an r/c car on a track hitting you is no different to being hit by a stray r/c car hitting you in a car park or even breaking an ankle by tripping on some stairs.

[stumpy]

From the BRCA insurance rules.

Marshalling is an accepted part of our sport, we race and then we marshal is the built in ethos, though of course ability and age are sometimes taken into consideration.

It is also accepted that racing tracks, of all sizes, are dangerous places to be, however somebody will determine a safe place to marshal from (it may be self determined at a club or by an official at a National – it doesn’t matter) while you are at your marshal post/point the insurance cover applies. But when YOU decide to leave that post and retrieve a car then do be aware that YOU have made that decision – it’s then your responsibility to keep yourself safe. You cannot blame and therefore claim off yourself, when you get it wrong.

[Chris-S]

I'm fairly sure you used to be covered whilst inside the track perimeter, both on/off marshall points. You wait, next year you wont be covered on your marshall point !

[Jim Spencer]

Hi All

Craig, Terry & Stumpy have it spot on.

Once YOU make the decision to leave the marshals post, you have made that call and if a car then hits you it's essentially your fault.
The insurance is really aimed at ensuring you, as a driver, or event official, don't have to put your hand very deeply into your pocket when somebody sue's you after a car - heaven forbid - ends up in the spectators..
(which has unfortunatly happended, there have been a few serious accidents over the years)

The cover whilst at your post is really an added bonus as it's a carry over from the full sized motorsport world (our policy is actually a scaled down version of the same one the Motorsport association use)

However what it doesn't include is -
Personal Accident Cover (i.e. where you through your own actions, such as tripping over a perfectly ok track marker, or stepping out right in front of a car basically hurt yourself)
This has been offered to the membership a couple of times but always rejected out of hand due to the cost of it (it would basically triple the membership fee)


Terry summed up the next bit very nicley:-
If you think that if you can't work you could end up losing your house, then you should already have your own personal accident insurance which would cover being hit by an r/c car. After all, breaking an ankle by an r/c car on a track hitting you is no different to being hit by a stray r/c car hitting you in a car park or even breaking an ankle by tripping on some stairs.

Any high street broker can provide this, it's not too expensive and well worth it if you don't have some other form of income protection.


To finish off
The cover has always been like this - it hasn't changed for at least the last 25 years.
There are currently no plans to change it. - though it is always reviewed.


Last bit is this:-
It's everybodies job to ensure safety, if YOU think anything is unsafe at an event it's YOUR responsability to inform race control, be it a poor track markers, marshals post badly sited or protected, dodgy bumper on a car even somebodies driving..

Stay safe out there!


Jim Spencer
Treasurer (& Insurance Bod)
BRCA

[Jim Spencer]

The way it was said to me when I was racing 8th Nitro that everybody that races at a track inside the track perimeter ( catch fencing ) has to be insured to be able to enter this area because of insurance !




To quantify the above bit:-

The insurance works two ways, you as a driver and for the folks running the race meeting for you.

The statement probably was / should have been:-
"everybody has to be a member to enter the track perimieter becasue of the insurance."

This is because inside the 'Perimieter' lies the 'Track and the Pit Lane'.

To the outside, non RC Car Racing world, these terms mean 'A place of known danger'.

If the bloke running race control knowingly allowed a Non Member* into 'A place of Known danger' while a Race was in progress and something went pear shaped they would be in the cacky stuff - though fortunatly with our insurance to back them up - to the point of criminal negligence anyway!

In short nobody in their right mind would run any model car race without PL cover being in place for everybody competing or going inside the track perimiter - they would be taking a HUGE risk otherwise.


Hopefully this explains why the initial statement was made and why you need to be a member to go into a Pitlane at an IC National for example.


*NOTE - In some circumstances membership of other bodies will suffice, such as membership of an other countries Governing Body within Europe and the BMFA cover is fine for bashing and some local club level events.
Though quite happy to answer questions on this one when the odd occasion crops up (normally somebody on their hols here with their car!)

Hope this helps

Jim

[PaulUpton]

Hmmm interesting reading,

I wonder when the first person will say 'sorry I can't move from my Marshall point I'm not insured'

Also how far away from the Marshall point are you 'uninsured'

[Colin Kirkham]

Well I was the one hit by a 8th nitro car on Saturday at the National at Wakefield.
I Marshalled a car on the straight, which then had an engine cut when put upright,
My mistake was to pick it up a second time ! And as on the straight put into the pit lane, Which was nearer to me than my Marshall point.
In that fraction of time, another car collided into my ankle.
It does make you think though, at race speeds thinks happen / go wrong very quickly !!
So I know we all have to take extra care.

I'm Currently waiting to get X-rayed as its still that dam painful.
I'll let you all know how I get on.

[reg]

Hmmm interesting reading,

I wonder when the first person will say 'sorry I can't move from my Marshall point I'm not insured'

Also how far away from the Marshall point are you 'uninsured'

especialy at the start of some races,where the grid is on the far side and marshals are told to move by race control,

[mark christopher]

Hmmm interesting reading,

I wonder when the first person will say 'sorry I can't move from my Marshall point I'm not insured'

Also how far away from the Marshall point are you 'uninsured'

If its a chair, when you leave it, its a barrier or cordoned off area, soon as you leave the area. Your within your rights not to move, but I would expect the same when you need to be marshalled.
As has been said we have third party public liability, if your worried take out personal accident protection.

[mattybucks]

Hmmm interesting reading,

I wonder when the first person will say 'sorry I can't move from my Marshall point I'm not insured'

Also how far away from the Marshall point are you 'uninsured'

If that happend then would the venue have to provide marshalls?

I can only imagine factoring that into the entry fee, then you have all the employeement law to think of - Training, SSOW, Risk Assessments, Accident Books, Riddor Reports - it would destroy the hobby.

[Dudders]

Very interesting post, especially for those who run clubs.

It was my understanding that your marshall 'post' was the track in which area you covered.

A 'post' would, in my limited knowledge, need to be explained and outlined, whether this be a chair to sit on/painted 'area' to stand or enlosed compound, maybe even a physical post that you needed to be in contact with.

It is very much open to opinion as it does seem vague. Some positions are on the track, but not anywhere near where a car races.

Interesting debate which I'll be watching.... I'm sure common sense will out.

[danDanEFC]

@Jim

Perhaps people could be given the offer 'Personal Accident Insurance' with their membership as an extra

[Colin Kirkham]

I think that would be a great idea !!

But then, I now would say that :cry:

[Jim Spencer]

Very interesting post, especially for those who run clubs.

It was my understanding that your marshall 'post' was the track in which area you covered.

A 'post' would, in my limited knowledge, need to be explained and outlined, whether this be a chair to sit on/painted 'area' to stand or enlosed compound, maybe even a physical post that you needed to be in contact with.

It is very much open to opinion as it does seem vague. Some positions are on the track, but not anywhere near where a car races.

Interesting debate which I'll be watching.... I'm sure common sense will out.


Hi

It's already covered in the Rules.

Marshals posts may be a physical construction or may be a self determined place you decide to stand at.
Obvioulsy both are behind the track edging - but within the track perimiter.

The Common Sense bit is the bit everybody struggles with as people go looking for it all explained in a great deal of detail and it's simply not done like that - even at full sized racing circuits, for example:-

The Main Observers posts at Oulton Park are huge breeze block construction, about half a dozen marshals are in each one - but the next flag marshals post is determined by where the bloke in the pickup truck dropped off a couple of fire extinguishers that morning, albeit possibly then adjusted by the Marshal when he got there.
They, just like us, have their posts behind the track edging but inside the track Perimiter - just a very large degree of physical size difference!

There's actually no debate as such, as NOTHING has changed, just some folks don't actually read the rules, or explain things a bit out of kilter with reality, or expect a high degree of detail which isn't there.

This all works on 'Principles' and application of 'Best Practice' as per most Insurance.

[Jim Spencer]

@Jim

Perhaps people could be given the offer 'Personal Accident Insurance' with their membership as an extra

Hi

We looked at this..

If it was done as an inclusion in the membership fee - i.e. everybody has it, but it's very strictly limited to how much for what sort of injury, then you can make it work - but it would literally triple the membership fee*

If you make it optional the likely take up (as most people will already have sick pay, income protection etc etc - which is basically the same thing with a different name attached) was estimated, by the broker who's done a few of these, at well under 10% - so it would make it very expensive indeed as then the 'worst case scenario' isn't offset by enough 'better than averages'

The cheapest way of getting Personal Accident insurance is therefore to take it out yourself if you haven't already got it via the other personal insurances we're all up to our neck in these days.

NOTE
*Oddly it was only at the 2010 AGM when this was last offered to the floor, didn't even get a seconder.. but I was asked and therefore got the quote..

[jimbot]

The 1/8 off road clubs all know this is the case at HNMC there is protection round 5~6 marshal points and at all club events we don't start the heats or finals till all marshals are at there postions.
As stated above this has been the case the clubs should ensure only brca members marshal and pit within the track area as all members should know the rules and on under 12 marshalling nitro.
All racers/marshal should have suitable footware.
Jim

[crtpromachine]

Unfortunally it is just one of those things Motorsport is a dangerous and youdo thingsat your own risk

In June i was hit in the leg by a car exiting the pit lane and yes i did look on the straight and then the pit lane before going over the pit lane and there was nothing there by the time i had got my 2nd foot in the pit lane to enter across the straight BANG to late car had wacked me in my leg;

It has left me with 8 weeks in plaster and i am know in a leg brace aided with crutches and alot more treatment to come yet;

It has caused a severe amount of damage by severe soft tissue injury to top of foot ankles and lower leg and also damaged the top surface of all the bones in the surrounding area

Green cross code comes to mind for me when i am at meeting from now on :woot:

So this is how easily a accident can happen and occur at any meeting

Crtpromachine

[Colin Kirkham]

What's amazing is how few people I've spoken to, don't know what the insurance
Covers.
Most are under the impression that, if you have a BRCA no. Your covered for anything, especially when marshalling cars.
I do wonder how many of the attending drivers, we're unaware or unsure before Kevin Griffin gave a "marshalls briefing" at the rally x national last weekend ?

How many of the other classes give a briefing to state, that you are NOT
Covered by your BRCA insurance, when you leave your Marshall post to marshal a car.

I think this should be be made more important in drivers briefings, than "where the snack van is !! "

Another Question I would like to ask Jim...

Locally we have a club which race 1/8th rally x, but they are not affiliated to the BRCA.
Do we, with BRCA membership, have any 3rd party cover if racing at there events?
Or indeed any cover at all ?

[reg]

as long as you stand in the marshal point while driving:woot:

[mark christopher]

What's amazing is how few people I've spoken to, don't know what the insurance
Covers.
Most are under the impression that, if you have a BRCA no. Your covered for anything, especially when marshalling cars.
I do wonder how many of the attending drivers, we're unaware or unsure before Kevin Griffin gave a "marshalls briefing" at the rally x national last weekend ?

How many of the other classes give a briefing to state, that you are NOT
Covered by your BRCA insurance, when you leave your Marshall post to marshal a car.

I think this should be be made more important in drivers briefings, than "where the snack van is !! "

Another Question I would like to ask Jim...

Locally we have a club which race 1/8th rally x, but they are not affiliated to the BRCA.
Do we, with BRCA membership, have any 3rd party cover if racing at there events?
Or indeed any cover at all ?

i believe all members get a brca hand book, all is explained in thier, surely if they are doing nationals they would read the book?

im 100% sure your cover covers you if your anywhere and your car hits somone and injures them, im not 100% sure but i would have thought the club would need to have its own public liability insurance to cover marshals/thier site etc.

[johnnygibbon]

I think this is absolute shite
Apparently marshalling is " voluntary " however if you refuse to Marshall even on safety grounds you will probly incur a penalty
So in reality you are forced to Marshall sometimes in an unsafe position
I have been clearing a crash with two cars at the top of the straight after shouting " car on straight " very loudly and received a b4 full power to my heel by a relitavly new driver
Who said I heard ya shout but assumed you'd cleared it " sorry "
Every other driver slowed or drive round
And I also shout " clear " once I have cleared a crash on the straight to let people know its safe again to try to avoid this
Any way I am self employed for a month I struggled to work properly especially up ladders
And I am told this is my fault I marshalled at my own risk .
So to avoid injury don't Marshall , but that means you might as well not race
Linzi who raced with us for a bit ended up with his full leg in plaster for ages after an incident very simaler to this
Again through no fault of his own
Why the hell shouldn't marshalls be covered anywhere on the track it's bloody dangerous
And if they are not then marshalling should be truly voluntary
Some classes or grouos are worse to Marshall than others and at times I have been terrified as cars desperate not ti lose half a second in the z final attempt to take out marshalls then crash and shout at em them burn there fingers revving the car as they Marshall The
Bloody thing
Personally I think things need to change especially if your injured by someone else's poor driving/ mistake


This is a definite problem needs addressing
Glad this thread is running

[DCM]

Also you may have noticed that there are a few wheelchair users in our sport and obviously they don't marshall
Maybe before Rc they could still walk

Up to this comment, you sounded passionate about RC, but you let yourself down putting that in fella, don't matter HOW they are disabled does it.

[mark christopher]

If its was unsafe to go on the track and you did and were hit, that's your judgement and your responsible. If you feel you can not retrieve the car safely don it, simples.

As has been said its allways been like this and if your worried about your judgement take out some personal accident insurance.

If I'm marshalling a car and the driver is on the power I simply leave it where it is and walk back to my point. Not been peanalized yet as the rule is you must be at your marshal point atte wwtart of the race. If you consider that point to be unsafe then ask to be moved or ask for some better protection.

It's not shite, just work within the parameters set out...

[john333]

My other half has to use a wheelchair part of the time and she's never been hit by an rc car.......what a bloody stupid comment, and quite offensive actually :mad:

[russmini]

All this just proves one thing to me...

Hardly any of you have actually read The Rules.. You are sent a Handbook as part of your BRCA Membership, all the rules, procedures etc etc are in there. If you did not know this, then you obviously couldn't be bothered to read it!
So forget all this shouting off now about being unable to work and this is all crap etc etc, You didn't/Couldn't be arsed to read the Rules, which are there for all to see, so.... Tough! I can't honestly see a problem. It's always been like this, it's your fault that because of your laziness at reading the Handbook you didn't know it, don't go sprouting off now!

If you feel that strongly about it, make sure you have Personal Accident cover or failing that, there's a good For Sale section with oOple. Sell all your stuff, then you won't have to endanger yourselves anymore...

[Cream]

Just on a side note, and to throw a curved ball in to the mix. With personal injury insurance do the same constrictions not apply? As in you must not put yourself in danger. i.e. you insurance won't pay out as you are deemed to have put yourself in danger being inside a restricted racing zone?

All this drama, but I'll still be there 7.30 on Saturday marshalling at Southport. I'll be the one with the flak jacket on :D



BTW if you drive like an arse I WILL pull your car off the track, Just so you know ;)

[neallewis]

I'll ignore the silly comment above, and throw something else into the discussion...

The marshal point has been deemed a "safe" point, and you are covered here. But what if it isn't safe? What if its in direct line of jumping cars, or at the the end of the straight and cars can bounce off and hit you in your safe point.
When club members are track building sometimes a marshal point just gets stuck in the ground at a logical point where someone thought a marshal may be needed. I'm sure a risk assessment and sign-off hasn't occurred as to whether it is actually "safe".
I'm not trying to raise a point on who's to blame here (I detest blame culture), but if a case went to court, where someone was hit at a "safe" marshal point. The person that defined that point a safe place would be called to account. I'm sure the BRCA insurance would fight it so they were not liable.

[johnnygibbon]

Ok apologies not trying to offend just making a point
Linzi almost was in a wheelchair after his smash he was on crutches for ages
It would be interesting if people post there Rc racing Injuries here and how they sustained them to give us an idea of how many injuries come from an individual marshalling being injured by a car or even track malfunctions eg loose carpet slipping on wet astro ECt
I am not trying to encourage the blame for a claim crew to come racing but fairs fair if someone is injured and it affects there life there should be some help or compensation or if not they should be allowed to politely refuse to Marshall or ask to change Marshall points if they feel they are in an unsafe position

I will start
Heel - smashed black and blue while marshalling straight ( affected work )
Thumb - slipped on loose carpet and damaged thumb ligament ( affected work )
( although I do accept this is a bit if a grey area it's still a injury sustains at racing)
Hand burnt raw by driver revving the car full blast as they were marshalled ( affected work slightly )
Toes bashed by car ( didn't affect work to badly but still bloody hurt and bruised )

Minor injuries I know but injuries all the same
Generally through no fault of your own
What's happened to the rest of you then
And would insurance of helped

[mark christopher]

Sorry but you put your self on the tack to get hit on the ankle, just because your ran out cars don't slow down, do you cross the road and hope cars/buses slow down?

[mark christopher]

I'll ignore the silly comment above, and throw something else into the discussion...

The marshal point has been deemed a "safe" point, and you are covered here. But what if it isn't safe? What if its in direct line of jumping cars, or at the the end of the straight and cars can bounce off and hit you in your safe point.
When club members are track building sometimes a marshal point just gets stuck in the ground at a logical point where someone thought a marshal may be needed. I'm sure a risk assessment and sign-off hasn't occurred as to whether it is actually "safe".
I'm not trying to raise a point on who's to blame here (I detest blame culture), but if a case went to court, where someone was hit at a "safe" marshal point. The person that defined that point a safe place would be called to account. I'm sure the BRCA insurance would fight it so they were not liable.
As I have put if you consider it unsafe, mention it or ask to be moved

[neallewis]

As I have put if you consider it unsafe, mention it or ask to be moved

That's exactly what I did when I was racing recently with a small boy at the end of the straight, who simply couldn't cope, and was in danger. To be fair his guardian should have paid more attention to him, he was about 7-8 and really was in the wrong place. When mentioned, the meeting chief moved him for the next round.

[Colin Kirkham]

Yes your right, I bet more than 50% of racers have never even lifted the cover to the handbook, I've read it, but it's only when something does go wrong are you reminded, that yes you should have taken out some sort of cover for yourself.

If everyone did read the Handbook and took it all in, then we would not even need a drivers / marshals briefing ??
I would like it to be reminded / noted, especially new drivers at drivers briefings.
It's something that is important !
Don't forget most clubs let you race up to three times before you need to join the BRCA so those new guys and girls would NOT have read the handbook.

It is a fun hobby/sport, but at the same time it can be dangerous.
It does not matter if you have been into RC racing 25 years or 25 mins
When something goes wrong it does so in a second !
I just want every one to be safe and covered, if they need to be, if it does.

Okay I had no cover, I knew I had no cover when I marshalled the car on the straight, I do it like everyone else, you love racing and you want to be marshalled when your racing, so you do your bit.
But even after looking and no cars were coming when I left my post, and wearing a hi vis, and the race ref warning of a Marshall on the straight,
I still got hit by a car at high speed ! It happens very quick !

[Colin Kirkham]

On the point of "safe marshall points" I personally dislike chairs being placed nr jumps, as you are creating an increased danger to head injurys as your sat lower and cannot move out of the way as quickly as being stood !

[/tobys]

If you get hit/injured by another BRCA member's car/buggy whilst marshalling, can you claim off their insurance?

[mark christopher]

If you get hit/injured by another BRCA member's car/buggy whilst marshalling, can you claim off their insurance?
no you can not

[DCM]

The Race Director is responsible for the position of marshalling posts, if you feel it is unsafe, tell them, they are normally busy doing a hundred things but most would be happy to accommodate your concerns.

Right, if your stood at your marshal point, you should be there watching your area of the track, so in theory, you should see any car out of controlling heading in your direction, now, we all know that half the marshals are either in a day dream, having a huff due to a bad run or just watching a car going round the track also, which makes them an easy target to be hit when they step onto the track to marshal, mainly due to them just not paying attention to it all.

It would be interesting to see if the BRCA could, not pay for it, but arrange a cover package that you could go for and get a group discount?

[MatJohnson]

As a voluntary organisation, thats gonna take up a lot of someones time to adminster this.

[DCM]

I don't mean the BRCA do all the policies, just a general umbrella that you can use with a broker to push the price down a bit.

[knighthawk]

First of all I started this thread !

There has been some very good points made and some not so good.

I believe that only 5% of BRCA Members have read the whole handbook cover to cover for each class they race.
Most members either cherry pick and find the info needed or are told by a third as problems arise, as this subject has.

Marshal point positioning and safety is a major issue main due to the point is put there a car is most likely to crash so in some instances is in its design in an unsafe position, but that's where it needs to be.

Marshal points are also placed where the member has to marshal two points of the track ( not the norm but it does happen ) and in the case you can't look in two direction and as such you may not see the car coming and hence an accident waiting to happen.

Next the Driver of the car is almost 99% at fault, ( wait for abuse ) he or she is after all driving the thing. A Marshal wearing a florry yellow bib should stand out, plus shouting car on the straight, on the whoops etc etc is ignored, so is the marshal at fault, sorry but no, warnings have been given and ignored. I was at two national indoor meetings earlier this year when one driver decided, during a final, that he would try to get his car to hit the roof of the indoor event, event one, almost wiped out the whole rostrum of drivers when his car was out of control and his car landed in the catch net above the jumps, second event again jumped and his car got stuck in the lights/roof and showered the track with car parts and flo lights as this was broken. We were all warned about excessive jumping, but this was ignored just because it was a laugh. Race director's to my knowledge did nothing about these issues.

Like many, many of us who have been racing for years ( 30 in my case ) safety has come a long way, yellow/orange bibs for instance, only over 12's as marshals but accidents will always happen, the very definition of and accident is " An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity ".

Sorry but just saying you didn't read or are to lazy to read the rules ridiculous.

Like I said I've been racing for some 30 years, have enjoyed every class I've raced and will continue to and will also marshal to the best of my ability, but I will state this, I will now consider is it safe and is the fault of the problem down to bad drivers !


I do think the insurance option should be offered on the BRCA, with so many members a potential discount should be available.

I also agree with the above, Personal Accident Insurance will not cover you if you put yourself in harms way, I've just asked an insurance broker in town this question.

[mark christopher]

As Jim Spencer has put, he was tasked with getting a group quote, if I remember correctly it could only be done if all members took it, and membership would have been around _£30 when it was voted on at the agm it got no where as no one would second it.

[knighthawk]

As Jim Spencer has put, he was tasked with getting a group quote, if I remember correctly it could only be done if all members took it, and membership would have been around _£30 when it was voted on at the agm it got no where as no one would second it.

Did everyone at the agm realise the insurance currently offered was insufficient !

With something as large as this issue a paper ballot should be done with all BRCA Members as very few can attend the agm meeting due to time and financial restraints

[knighthawk]

Also to Jim and the rest of the BRCA Committee
This is not in any way a dig into your abilities or the time you give !

This issue has arisen, some have more light than others on this subject and it is more than clear that its not made clear enough that 100% know the facts !!!!

[mark christopher]

Did everyone at the agm realise the insurance currently offered was insufficient !

With something as large as this issue a paper ballot should be done with all BRCA Members as very few can attend the agm meeting due to time and financial restraints

Im sure Jim explained the difference in both covers.

I fail to see how you did not know after thirty years of racing, that the third party public liability did not cover you for personal inquiry it has allways been the same, ask your broker about third party insurance...

As I and others have posted, if YOU want to be covered get the required insurance, I'm covered for sick pay off work by my company. So don't want to pay extra on my membership thanks.

[Colin Kirkham]

What the heck is £30 ? Your paying more than that for a set of tyres now!

[knighthawk]

Im sure Jim explained the difference in both covers.

I fail to see how you did not know after thirty years of racing, that the third party public liability did not cover you for personal inquiry it has allways been the same, ask your broker about third party insurance...

As I and others have posted, if YOU want to be covered get the required insurance, I'm covered for sick pay off work by my company. So don't want to pay extra on my membership thanks.

It makes no difference if i been racing 30 years or 30 minutes
Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

Also check the wording of your policy with work or a Personal Accident Insurance, putting yourself in harms warm ( ie causing part of the accident ) invalidates the insurance.

[crtpromachine]

On the point of "safe marshall points" I personally dislike chairs being placed nr jumps, as you are creating an increased danger to head injurys as your sat lower and cannot move out of the way as quickly as being stood !


There was a new rule came in for this problem there should be a marshall only at the beginning of a jump section and at the end no where else on the jump section as it was classed as unsafe;

[crtpromachine]

That's exactly what I did when I was racing recently with a small boy at the end of the straight, who simply couldn't cope, and was in danger. To be fair his guardian should have paid more attention to him, he was about 7-8 and really was in the wrong place. When mentioned, the meeting chief moved him for the next round.


Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

[DCM]

re:marshalling points and jumps... As the years have gone on, tracks have got faster and bigger and more/bigger jumps at the request of the drivers.

How far do you really want the BRCA to have to legislate for you to run your car on a club day?

[DCM]

Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

Depends on the class being raced.

[crtpromachine]

I have had my few posts on this subject and i am going to let it lie as i could sit here posting till the cows come home and it is not going to change anything or improve my condition at this moment in time

I have been back to hospital today to see othapedic Consultant and i am in a leg brace aided with crutches for a further 3 months. This is after 8 weeks of being in plaster .After this time he is hoping for some improvement so he can start further treatment on my nerve damage along side with soft tissue and damage to the top surface of the bones;

Oh the joys of car racing but it is a MOTORSPORT and can be DANGEROUS

[peetbee]

Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

So how is it anyone else's fault if they choose not to read the book?
That club official must have been one of those people too!
They may not have been around for 30 years, but in the time they have been around, it has been the same level of cover. I'm not sure what your point was there?

As regards to balloting members and making decisions outside of the AGM, as I understand it requires a change to the BRCA constitution which in turn needs to be voted in at an AGM - I know it's very catch 22, but them's the rules the BRCA committee has to abide by.

And yes I have been injured by cars, fortunately not as badly as others and I wish them all a speedy recovery.

[rollingon4]

I've been reading this thread with interest, it's safe to say we all enjoy the hobby and I don't think many of us would believe that 'where there is blame there is a claim', accidents happen and you get on with life as those that have been hit by cars on this thread and taken it on the chin, no pun intended, prove. BUT working for the past 8 years in the insurance industry it's easy to spot some massive grey areas and loopholes regarding the current rules, all it needs is a compensation claim from someone greedy to set a precedent and I guarantee no note in a rulebook will make any difference.

I'm also a rock climber and find the below article/link outrageous as it effected a company that friends work for, Craggy Island in Guildford, and had the climbing community outraged, the same thing could potentially happen to any RC club. For some personal responsibility or liability means nothing, it does give food for thought as to how little water a disclaimer holds though if you're determined to hold someone responsible. A broken ankle, deemed to be an injury worth £150,000 in this case, also shows how much can be at stake:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66978

[Colin Kirkham]

Well that could open a can of worms ? She is only 1/3rd to blame ????

So working in the insurance industry.. Can you tell us all is there such a policy
That wound cover lost of earnings, and not looking to be made rich!
That we could take out, which would pay out after say, if you out of work for 4 weeks, due to an accident which occurred due to marshalling a R/C Model car ?

[Mad-Wolfie]

i think we are missing a crucial point here guys. If someone stuffs their car onto it's roof or sticks it against something & can't move the car under their cars own power, is it YOUR fault when you are marshaling that someone has binned it? I think the thing is & has to be only move when YOU get the gut feeling it's safe to do so.

Yes we all get narked at Marshals (i even do it myself) when a marshal doesn't put your car back on the track but so long as he's not stood there with his/her hands in his pockets, picking his nose or is only marshaling his mates cars up 1st (which does often happen if Father is marshaling Son, nobody else's car seems to matter) even though your car has been there long before his mate crashed, then as i see it, so long as the marshal has moved to give you the idea he's paying attention & knows your car has crashed the only thing to do is be lenient with him because he is the one risking his neck to put your cock-up right.

[Skye]

I have read all of this with interest and can see valid points from both sides of the argument so don't have a strong opinion myself but there are a few questions....

Realistically, are clubs / fellow drivers etc going to accept it when (not if) someone refuses to marshall? If its voluntary then no one should be forced, but in my experience you often are otherwise you are threatened with being penalised.

I will always marshall and will always try to marshall as I would wish to be marshalled myself, but honestly, if someone else refused on safety grounds then that should be graciously accepted. Of course, we all know this would spread like wildfire until no-one wanted to marshall anymore and when asked why safety would always be the get out clause, even if it had nothing to do with it (laziness, broken car to fix, hung over etc etc...)

Secondly, all examples talk of cars colliding with people and therefore the blame at least partially being lying with the victim for stepping into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

What is the score when no car is involved? Last winter I fell over 3 times at Stotfold whilst marshalling and I saw others running into double figures also fall or slip over. The astro gets like an ice rink given some moisture in the air and a cold day.

Fortunately each time I was able to get up with no more than a sore ass/leg/wrist/back etc and carry on. What would have happened if I had broken something though, who is to blame then? If someone slipped and fell on a wet floor in a shopping mall, you can guarantee someone would pay for it. If someone tripped due to unsafe paving in the high street then someone would pay for it....

So is it any different on an RC track that has been exposed to the elements? Should a track have those little 'wet floor' signs for such occasions? :woot:

Dont get me wrong, I am not advocating the ambulance chasing type but I am interested to see where this scenario sits with regards to any insurance cover or who may be liable?

Returning back to the point of being hit by cars, I always look to see what else is approaching before stepping onto the track and if there are car(s) within a couple of seconds of me I let them pass first before marshalling the stricken car. This is surely common sense in the name of safety, but if that is the case then why do drivers of the stricken car get rowdy about not being marshalled as quickly as they would like..... :eh?:

[rollingon4]

Well that could open a can of worms ? She is only 1/3rd to blame ????

So working in the insurance industry.. Can you tell us all is there such a policy
That wound cover lost of earnings, and not looking to be made rich!
That we could take out, which would pay out after say, if you out of work for 4 weeks, due to an accident which occurred due to marshalling a R/C Model car ?

Sadly personal policies of this nature are not my area of expertise so I'm of no real use there I'm afraid :( the difficultly arises, as others have said, in that by leaving your marshalling post you're knowingly putting yourself at risk and invalidating the terms BRCA insurance, so by putting yourself in a position of known danger you may also invalidate any additional policy you have taken out yourself. What you'd need to make sure of is that the policy includes what an insurer may deem a dangerous sport/hobby in much the same way that you will pay a premium on travel insurance for cover when skiing, climbing, mountain biking etc.

The only way I believe you'd be in the clear is to call an insurer or broker when taking out a policy and specifically inform them that you're racing and marshalling, explain the risks and why you need to be insured as a result, the aim would be to get them to write cover for it into policy document as an inclusion. The chance of ever needing to claim is slim at best but if something did happen that prevented you from working again you'd want to be certain that your insurers had agreed to underwrite the risk in the first place rather than assuming they had.

If there is one thing I do know for sure is that never assume with an insurance policy, the aim of the underwriter after all is to make as high a profit on premiums as possible whilst minimising payouts, it's just gambling with peoples misfortune as opposed to gambling on the stock market...

[Colin Kirkham]

All very interesting reading !
And some very valid points

[Jaf]

Can we get some official confirmation on this thread re: cover for pit crew?

i.e.

a) covered in pitlane? any exclusions?
b) cover when out on track retrieving a car - ie: 100% at your own risk? covered if you are out somewhere in the track area, wearing high viz but are off the actual track and near a marshall point when you are hit?
c) at the start of a race when you are instructed by race control to take cars to the grid - are you covered if there is a coming together as the cars leave the grid and a car leaves the track and hits you? are the numbered start points deemed safe?

Bearing in mind how much everything else costs in this hobby....I would be more than happy to pay around £30-40 for my BRCA membership if it provided a better level of insurance.

[mark christopher]

It makes no difference if i been racing 30 years or 30 minutes
Like I said in my earlier post, not all read the book cover to cover, I was told by a Club Official that I was joining, that we need BRCA for insurance purposes and it covers you for accidents at race meetings within the track domain. And to be honest I don't think the books been around for 30 years, neither has BRCA subs.

Also check the wording of your policy with work or a Personal Accident Insurance, putting yourself in harms warm ( ie causing part of the accident ) invalidates the insurance.
my works is not a policy, i get paid full sick pay, no questions!

[Cockerill]

Can we get some official confirmation on this thread

Not very likely, for an official line, the only way to do it is to contact the BRCA directly, probably starting with the section chairman. All the contact details can be found in the handbook or on the BRCA website.

[Hpi_guy]

without trying to cause offence but what ever happened to accepting a accident and getting on, fair enough if your work doesnt cover sick pay and you break your ankle but at the end of the day it comes back to your decision to retrieve the car, crt's case and similar an exeption in that it prevented them from their work, from my point of view people are wanting compensation for everything, what i am refering to is the people out there who will make a claim just because a car ran over their toes, but this was no way ment as a dig at anyone here

[Col]

I can't believe it.

Surely it's not possible?

For the third time this month I find myself in total agreement with Mr Christopher...

[mark christopher]

What the heck is £30 ? Your paying more than that for a set of tyres now!

im not?

also remember that £30 was accross the board, from top national drivers down to the dad and his two lads that race at thier local club on a friday night inside on a gym floor!! you expect him to pay £90 to cover your ass?

[mark christopher]

Not very likely, for an official line, the only way to do it is to contact the BRCA directly, probably starting with the section chairman. All the contact details can be found in the handbook or on the BRCA website.

Actually Jim spencer has been on here and he is the guy who is in the know on this topic, he has done it for a fair few years! he also posted the official line page 1 post 7

i have pointed him to the post.

[mark christopher]

I can't believe it.

Surely it's not possible?

For the third time this month I find myself in total agreement with Mr Christopher...
steady you best sit down and have a warm drink :p:woot:

[mark christopher]

Can we get some official confirmation on this thread re: cover for pit crew?

i.e.

a) covered in pitlane? any exclusions?
b) cover when out on track retrieving a car - ie: 100% at your own risk? covered if you are out somewhere in the track area, wearing high viz but are off the actual track and near a marshall point when you are hit?
c) at the start of a race when you are instructed by race control to take cars to the grid - are you covered if there is a coming together as the cars leave the grid and a car leaves the track and hits you? are the numbered start points deemed safe?

Bearing in mind how much everything else costs in this hobby....I would be more than happy to pay around £30-40 for my BRCA membership if it provided a better level of insurance.
unofficially i would say
a) no
b) no
c) no

as you put your there 100% at your own risk.

[Frecklychimp]

I can't believe it.

Surely it's not possible?

For the third time this month I find myself in total agreement with Mr Christopher...

I'm with you on that one too!

Nothing has changed in the hobby and i've had the same conversations over the years with many experienced drivers that were not aware of the facts being brought to light in his thread.

There is no instruction book for common sense and why should those that use it be penalised by having to take expensive insurance out for incompetence behind a radio controlled vehicle?

If you are marshalling properly and watching each car as it heads towards and past your marshal point then you should have time to react to it.

The hobby is only dangerous to fools!

[neallewis]

What the heck is £30 ? Your paying more than that for a set of tyres now!

Not a lot to some maybe, but it's alot to a new starter, say a father and a couple of kids. All clubs (not just RC) are suffering with new intake at the moment. Huge club joining fee's will put new members off.

[neallewis]

Surely this child was well under age to be out marshalling anyways as the legal limit is 12 for marshalling in line with the BRCA Rules .This is down to the parent/guardian to either marshall for the child or they are taking it on there heads if anything happend no claim would be made as should not of been out marshalling;

Normally this is said at drivers briefing or in the rules of whatever meeting or series you are attending

hmm, club level meetings. Some parents do leave their kids to marshal on their own. Some, most are good though and assist, or take a point close to their child.

[reg]

I can't believe it.

Surely it's not possible?

For the third time this month I find myself in total agreement with Mr Christopher...

:woot:

[Jim Spencer]

Hi All

I've read the posts above and think all the questions asked have been correctly answered, but there's some points.

Firstly nobody has to read the 'whole book' you HAVE to read the General Rules which are Two pages - read them, anything you don't understand drop me an email and i'll elaborate on it.

Next bit
There is nobody on the Exec who would say they are an Insurance expert, thats why we only use an Insurance provider who is both an expert in public liability and motorsport - they know exactly what they are doing. They have had direct input into the wording of some of the rules.
This system has unfortunatly been tested a good few times, a couple of times with quite serious accidents, it works, and hence the sport is still here..


Remember the aim of this cover.
It's to protect You as a driver and You as an organiser - without those two things in place our sport would not exist at all.


The folks wanting cover while Marshalling, that isn't Public Liability - you cannot have that cover via that product.
To get it would require Personal Accident Insurance - which is available for all sorts of activities, right up to ones that are very dangerous indeed, whoever advised somebody otherwise above is quite wrong - you can easily get it for full sized motoracing for example.

I have explained earlier why this is tricky to do on a 'one size fits all' basis, and the best advice was to advise our members to: -
"obtain this from a high street broker for themselves if they want it"

Now I haven't currently got any intention of bringing the 'one size fits all' offering back to the AGM there's little point.


But having a bit of a think..

Would you like me to get a provider of Personal Accident Cover to advertise in the handbook so you know who to go to?

If I get a few PM's I can do that easily enough.


Lastly to repeat myself..

NOTHING has changed - the cover you have now is basically what you had 25 years ago, just with a few improvements added over the years.

[mark christopher]

cheers jim

it could be a good idea to find a broker and stick it in the book (providing its read ) :woot:
also a broker who insures for theft of gear?

bit like the hotel offer and national car hire is in there!

[Colin Kirkham]

For the record...

I have 5 children of which three race and one pits for me, from time to time.
So I pay for five memberships a year !
And yea I would pay the extra membership £30 each for all of us, I think being done through the brca it would be value for money, and if someone else made a claim I would not think of it as I'm paying for someone else's ass !


I've read the handbook, but not everyone has?
Being hit on Saturday has just made me think, that's all !

I'm not making a claim against anyone nor will I !!!
Even when officials at the meeting knew what happened, but never came to me to even ask if I was okay?
Nor did the driver who had been warned of a Marshall being on the straight.

God forbid that something worst ever happens to anyone ?
If any of you had to be off work for six months for an injury where you put yourself in harms way, would you be able to financially cope? even if you had employers sick pay?

Anyway that's me done and like CRT I'm letting this lie

And yes, Jim if you would / could put a recommend insurer in the handbook, I think that really is a fantastic idea.

[DCM]

But having a bit of a think..

Would you like me to get a provider of Personal Accident Cover to advertise in the handbook so you know who to go to?

That would be ideal.... oh, and family membership, my tribe cost me a small fortune :thumbsup:

[Br00kie]

Hi

Ok I have been following this thread with interest. May I respectfully suggest
that with the obvious concern for our safety and the risk of unexpected or accidental events, we all make an effort to minimise the risks by ensuring we wear appropriate footwear i.e boots (Not trainers) which will support the ankle and offer increased protection against an impact. Plus a pair of gloves which may offer some protection against an over eager throttle trigger. No Loose clothing and most definitely no lurid shell suits. Oh yeah and no Onesies :p

[neallewis]

Hi

Ok I have been following this thread with interest. May I respectfully suggest
that with the obvious concern for our safety and the risk of unexpected or accidental events, we all make an effort to minimise the risks by ensuring we wear appropriate footwear i.e boots (Not trainers) which will support the ankle and offer increased protection against an impact. Plus a pair of gloves which may offer some protection against an over eager throttle trigger. No Loose clothing and most definitely no lurid shell suits. Oh yeah and no Onesies :p

like these?
http://www.corsetera.co.uk/images/uploads/thumbs/thumb_seduce-3028Blk_BootsThigh_570x672.jpg.jpg

or maybe:

http://static.artfire.com/uploads/studio_gallery//thumbs/48040_265808488_gallery_image_thumb_large.jpg

and these:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Disposable-Insemination-Gloves-AI-Vet-Gloves-Farm-Use-Pond-Gloves-Arm-Length-/00/s/NzA5WDcwOQ==/$(KGrHqZ,!lIE5cpHfnzIBOez-k2o5!~~60_35.JPG


sorry...

[stumpy]

Thanks for the photo of the boots now I can wear mine outside the house for a change.

[bodgit]

So you cant race without Brca insurance but when you get it your not covered by it??? And if you hit anybody on the track the insurance you payed for wont pay them anything or you if your hit by them. So why have you payed for it in the first place and where and what does the money go for?? to be told what tyres you can use. Im confused.

[peetbee]

So you cant race without Brca insurance but when you get it your not covered by it??? And if you hit anybody on the track the insurance you payed for wont pay them anything or you if your hit by them. So why have you payed for it in the first place and where and what does the money go for?? to be told what tyres you can use. Im confused.

Re-read Jim Spencer's posts - the BRCA insurance is public liability not personal accident cover.

[terry.sc]

Lastly to repeat myself..

NOTHING has changed - the cover you have now is basically what you had 25 years ago, just with a few improvements added over the years.
I think the difference is that 25 years ago we all read the handbook and understood what public liability insurance is. Today, based on this thread it looks like people have just seen the word 'insurance' and jumped to the conclusion that it protects them for everything.

After all, there are still some beginners who assume, like 1:1 car insurance, it covers them for damage when they break their car while racing.:lol:

Also 25 years ago for most cases if we stood on the track and a car ran into us and broke our ankle we would blame ourselves for stepping out when it wasn't clear. We had the common sense to know that if we didn't want to get injured we didn't step out on the track without looking first, or to stand at a marshalling point where there was a chance you could get injured. Now it appears that because they have heard the word 'insurance' used in connection with their BRCA membership people have assumed if they get injured for any reason then the BRCA will pay out for any expenses or loss of earnings.

For those moaning about not covering loss of earnings when injured, as has been pointed out several times in this thread being injured when racing is no different to injuring yourself at home. If you can't afford to lose income due to a broken ankle while marshalling, then you also can't afford to lose income due to a broken ankle caused by falling off a step ladder at home, or if you stepped out in front of a 1:1 car. If you are employed your company sick pay should already cover you, if not then you should have already taken the responsibility of sorting out your own personal accident insurance anyway.

BTW in my case, although I would advise taking it out anyway, you do not need BRCA membership to race at my club as I have to pay for a proportion of the halls public liability insurance on top the rent. This has more cover than the BRCA insurance, but even with sharing the insurance with the likes of slimming and dog training clubs it still costs quite a bit more than BRCA affiliation.

[terry.sc]

So you cant race without Brca insurance but when you get it your not covered by it??? And if you hit anybody on the track the insurance you payed for wont pay them anything or you if your hit by them. So why have you payed for it in the first place and where and what does the money go for?? to be told what tyres you can use. Im confused.

It's to cover you if you have an actual accident that isn't your responsibility, for example say something went wrong and your car flew off the track and into the pits, denting a car someone is pitting from, or a spectator outside the the track boundary. The public liability insurance would deal with any claims.

If you think someone you hit on the track because they have stepped on to the track in front of you can claim on the insurance for any injuries, do you also believe if you are driving your 1:1 car and someone deliberately stepped out in front of you that person should be able to claim on your insurance?

[RogerM]

This thread makes me a little sad, it seems that the common sense element has been lost as Jim says, but then it seems to have been lost in life in general compared to 25 years ago.

I mean that if I walked in to the road without looking to see if a car was coming and got hit I'd not blame the driver ... I SHOULD HAVE LOOKED!! I'd not try and claim of his insurance for my mistake, I'd claim of my own personal accident cover if at all. If the driver was doing something silly, like massively speeding, which I couldn't have predicted then it was at least part his fault as he wasn't following the rules of conduct relating to the roads!

Now lets liken that to race day and I am marshalling, Joe Blogs crashes his car by my point from the lead of a final but the other 9 guys are coming along not far behind him I'm affraid Mr Blogs will have to wait and become last. How is that fair? Well it was his mistake crashing there and I don't see why I should;

a) potentially ruin the runs of other drivers who haven't made a mistake by stepping out in front of them and maybe blocking their view, causing them to swerve to avoid the idiot in the middle of the track (i.e. me in this case) or worse still kicking their car and damaging it

or

b) putting myself at risk of injury for the sake of reducing the impact of Joe's mistake by a couple of seconds!

I will get there as fast as SAFELY possible and do my best to marshal his car as well as possible (i.e. not pull the wing off, not drop it back on it's roof again and put it on the correct part of the track facing in a sensible direction)

Now that brings me back to my other pet hates with marshalling;

1) the shouters ... your screaming voice doesn't make me waddle my fat butt across the track any faster, if anything it makes me less interested in helping you (if I've not noticed the car and am facing in the wrong direction please feel free to shout something like "marshal 6, behind you please" or ask the ref to do it for you).

2) the revers ... I'm not picking it up with you reving it, I need my fingers for work and typing fluff and nonsense on to RC forums. If you rev it I will hold my hands up till you stop, if you rev it when I'm holding it I will let go.
Be sensible, it is especially bad when the marshal is a little kid who might not be thinking "safety first"!


Now back to my comment about the general reduction in common sense and the ability to asses risk and the roads. How many people over the age of 30 remember those cartoon hedge hogs teaching us about the green-cross-code? Most of us I expect, hence why were not constantly bouncing off the bonnets of people carriers!
I see so many kids / young people who walk out in the road in traffic and expect the motorists to stop ... crazy.
Even my dog sits and waits for a clear slot to walk across the road for crying out load ... how dumb are these people (as it's not just the youngsters to be fair)?????

I blame the ambulence chasers for installing this "where there is blame there is a claim" culture into our lives and making them poorer for it.

Third party insurance is just that, protecting the other person for the affects of your mistake .... if you want personal accident cover take it out, it's not expensive, hell I get mine free with my bank account.

Stop, look, listen ... It's not hard to spot a brightly coloured buggy heading for you.

[RogerM]

Terry, your last post reminds of an incident from about 1987/1988 at the Alcesster Buggy Club.

A guys Turbo Burns 1/8th buggy suffered a stuck throttle on the straight, used the banked corner at the end as a jump and flew over the fence in to the car park and through the windscreen of a couple of week old Cossie .... there was a collective gasp from the pits, a scury to make sure nobody was hurt and one brave sole dived into the Cossie and caught the buggy and stalled it's engine. Not before it had ripped the interior of the car to shreds!!

We looked around to see the owner of the Cossie and for the driver of the Turbo Burns to come down off the rostrum ... we waited, waited and waited ... the the truth dawned ... the Cossie and Turbo Burns were owned by the same chap!!!!!

I've never had to fight back the laughter so much in all my life, talk about unlucky!

[Welshy40]

Hi All

Craig, Terry & Stumpy have it spot on.

Once YOU make the decision to leave the marshals post, you have made that call and if a car then hits you it's essentially your fault.
The insurance is really aimed at ensuring you, as a driver, or event official, don't have to put your hand very deeply into your pocket when somebody sue's you after a car - heaven forbid - ends up in the spectators..
(which has unfortunatly happended, there have been a few serious accidents over the years)

The cover whilst at your post is really an added bonus as it's a carry over from the full sized motorsport world (our policy is actually a scaled down version of the same one the Motorsport association use)

However what it doesn't include is -
Personal Accident Cover (i.e. where you through your own actions, such as tripping over a perfectly ok track marker, or stepping out right in front of a car basically hurt yourself)
This has been offered to the membership a couple of times but always rejected out of hand due to the cost of it (it would basically triple the membership fee)


Terry summed up the next bit very nicley:-
If you think that if you can't work you could end up losing your house, then you should already have your own personal accident insurance which would cover being hit by an r/c car. After all, breaking an ankle by an r/c car on a track hitting you is no different to being hit by a stray r/c car hitting you in a car park or even breaking an ankle by tripping on some stairs.

Any high street broker can provide this, it's not too expensive and well worth it if you don't have some other form of income protection.


To finish off
The cover has always been like this - it hasn't changed for at least the last 25 years.
There are currently no plans to change it. - though it is always reviewed.


Last bit is this:-
It's everybodies job to ensure safety, if YOU think anything is unsafe at an event it's YOUR responsability to inform race control, be it a poor track markers, marshals post badly sited or protected, dodgy bumper on a car even somebodies driving..

Stay safe out there!


Jim Spencer
Treasurer (& Insurance Bod)
BRCA



So as long as you turn up to marshal you cannot really be penalised for not doing it, as your not insured. I will remember that for the future. If we are expected to marshal then you need to up the insurance so everyone on the track is covered and not just on the marshal point.

[terry.sc]

So as long as you turn up to marshal you cannot really be penalised for not doing it, as your not insured. I will remember that for the future. If we are expected to marshal then you need to up the insurance so everyone on the track is covered and not just on the marshal point.
If you think just sitting at the marshal point and not marshalling is fine, then don't be surprised when you get the same penalty as not marshalling. Also don't complain when everyone marshalling your heat is told not to touch your car, if you don't want to marshal then you can't complain if no one marshals you car either.

As a race organiser I am not going to take out extra insurance to cover you when you are acting irresponsibly, that includes jumping out in front of other cars on the track. If you are not happy with that, then either take out your own accident insurance, or the for sale section is here (http://www.oople.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6).

[mark christopher]

I think the difference is that 25 years ago we all read the handbook and understood what public liability insurance is. Today, based on this thread it looks like people have just seen the word 'insurance' and jumped to the conclusion that it protects them for everything.

After all, there are still some beginners who assume, like 1:1 car insurance, it covers them for damage when they break their car while racing.:lol:

Also 25 years ago for most cases if we stood on the track and a car ran into us and broke our ankle we would blame ourselves for stepping out when it wasn't clear. We had the common sense to know that if we didn't want to get injured we didn't step out on the track without looking first, or to stand at a marshalling point where there was a chance you could get injured. Now it appears that because they have heard the word 'insurance' used in connection with their BRCA membership people have assumed if they get injured for any reason then the BRCA will pay out for any expenses or loss of earnings.

For those moaning about not covering loss of earnings when injured, as has been pointed out several times in this thread being injured when racing is no different to injuring yourself at home. If you can't afford to lose income due to a broken ankle while marshalling, then you also can't afford to lose income due to a broken ankle caused by falling off a step ladder at home, or if you stepped out in front of a 1:1 car. If you are employed your company sick pay should already cover you, if not then you should have already taken the responsibility of sorting out your own personal accident insurance anyway.

BTW in my case, although I would advise taking it out anyway, you do not need BRCA membership to race at my club as I have to pay for a proportion of the halls public liability insurance on top the rent. This has more cover than the BRCA insurance, but even with sharing the insurance with the likes of slimming and dog training clubs it still costs quite a bit more than BRCA affiliation.


so under the brca if my car breaks a heart sugeons finger at a club after leaving the track, he could sue me for £££££££ and my brca would pay, if i came to your club as a non brca member (no insurance) and the same happened would the venues insurance cover me the same?

[mark christopher]

Roger M

agree with your long post fully ( not quoted it to save space on here!)

[mark christopher]

So as long as you turn up to marshal you cannot really be penalised for not doing it, as your not insured. I will remember that for the future. If we are expected to marshal then you need to up the insurance so everyone on the track is covered and not just on the marshal point.



TRUE, but remember other may choose not to marshall your car!

NO were expected to marshal and consider our saftey while doing it, if YOU feel your incompetentant at making a sensible judgment of when to move from your marshal point. then YOU need to make sure you are insured, its not down to the brca.

[h0m3sy]

This thread has made me laugh, all that is needed is some common sense when marshalling. Something sadly lacking with some of the posts I've read.

[terry.sc]

so under the brca if my car breaks a heart sugeons finger at a club after leaving the track, he could sue me for £££££££ and my brca would pay, if i came to your club as a non brca member (no insurance) and the same happened would the venues insurance cover me the same?
According to the information I have been given on it from the hall committee, yes my halls public liability insurance will cover it. Although as it is only effective for events inside the hall, I wouldn't like to speculate what would happen if a car shot off through the door and hit something outside in the street. It also doesn't cover members if they 'test' their cars in the car park. To be honest, the only racers who aren't BRCA members are the kids who turn up each week to run around with their basic Tamiya TT01s.

[jimbot]

[QUOTE=RogerM;693741]Terry, your last post reminds of an incident from about 1987/1988 at the Alcesster Buggy Club.

Think I was there when a car left the track don't remember it being that bad if I am correct think that club had something to do with the late Justin Mackay and his dad Dave.

Now I showing my age!
Jim

[jasonrcb]

The cossie belonged to John Vale his dad's face was quite a picture from what i can remember.

Justin and Dave were puma sponsored so they spent alot time down there with us,really nice and helpful friends,R.I.P.mate

[SlowOne]

An interesting read. If this thread were about there being too much H&S these days - too much nanny state - I wonder how many of the people expecting this insurance to cover everything, no matter what they do, would also be saying there is too much nanny state these days...?!

The way to remove this problem completely is not to race these classes. If everyone does not take safety personally and actively, and there is a claim like the rock climbing one, then that's what may happen. We are a minority sport with little or no clout and zero public sympathy, so if something made the papers...

We all want our sport to be there for us, so now we all know what is and what is not covered, let's take responsibility and not be victims. As it has been for the last 25 years, safety is our responsibility... all of us...

[crtpromachine]

There is just 1 question i would like to ask and see if i can get the correct answer;

So i take it if you took your own public insurance out would this allow you to race at BRCA non affiltated and affilated meetings;

Or is it the case you would still need to own a BRCA licence as well

[mark christopher]

There is just 1 question i would like to ask and see if i can get the correct answer;

So i take it if you took your own public insurance out would this allow you to race at BRCA non affiltated and affilated meetings;

Or is it the case you would still need to own a BRCA licence as well

you would need to be a brca member to count points/compete at brca affiliated meetings as far as im aware as most state on the entry you need to be in the brca and ask for your number