Clarifications to the GT12 Rules

[SlowOne]

If anyone had told me when these were written earlier this year that we would have clubs up and down the country adopting them and racing the cars, and over 40 places taken up at Nationals, I wouldn’t have believed them. Thank you to everyone who has taken this class up and raced it.

Time and your feedback have shown that there are those who are trying to understand the rules, and those who are testing them! So, time for some clarifications from the experience we have so far.

Carbon-fibre composite chassis – the intent was to prevent expensive, ‘must-have’ hop ups. To be clear, whatever the material supplied by the manufacturer for that car in their less-than £100 kit is the material you can use. You cannot upgrade the chassis material at all. Only chassis’ that come with the kit can be used.

Bodyshells – everyone has cut their shells to the cut lines on the moulding and seem happy with that. We’ll incorporate that as a rule to prevent any slamming of the shells which may then require low-profile electronics. The rear bumper line on the GT1 (Exige) is obvious, but the Ascari isn’t. Rules for that will be proposed after seeing what Kamtec and Mardave can help with.

We’ll be putting forward a proposal that the shells must be painted in the style of a current GT car, and not in some free-form war-paint, airbrushed style. This will preserve the look of the class and it’s attractiveness to new drivers. That will be voted at the EGM next April; no change for this season.

Feedback says that the numbers we use for the classes aren’t descriptive and are difficult to remember. We will propose to re-name GT12.1 as GT12 SuperCup, and GT12.2 as GT12 Production to make it easier to identify which is which.

GT12 Production hasn’t taken up well. I wonder if the lack of a differential is an issue here. If we allowed a differential in this class, do we think it would improve the take-up? Your comments by post here, e-mail or PM to me, would be welcomed.

The 21.5 class has become redundant. It was there because there were too few 1S-ready speed controllers at a fair price. With the new Mardave and Schumacher controllers now available for only £15 more than a good booster on its own, there is no reason to use 2S. Obviously clubs can do what they want, but for Nationals it is a redundant rule and will be removed.

Peter Winton
GT12 Co-ordinator, BRCA 12th Section Committee

If you have any proposals you would like to see proposed at the EGM, proposal forms will be circulated around March 2013, with our EGM being held in April 2013. Every BRCA member is welcome. Any discussions on here might help see what support you have.

[andy110m]

I agree with most of these points, I think the success of this class is superb, I must confess to not racing it myself but it is/was the support class at some local clubs, I think it my now be the dominant class.

The only rule proposal I don't like relates to the bodyshell colours. Most racers develop their own colours and scheme. I'd like to see these and their individualisum continue.

But thats the only thing, long live the class!

[dale]

I agree with most of these points, I think the success of this class is superb, I must confess to not racing it myself but it is/was the support class at some local clubs, I think it my now be the dominant class.

The only rule proposal I don't like relates to the bodyshell colours. Most racers develop their own colours and scheme. I'd like to see these and their individualisum continue.

But thats the only thing, long live the class!

I do race GT12 myself. Fantastic class and only going to get more popular. Agree with everything apart from the bodyshell colours, as said I have my own colours that I run on all my cars

[neallewis]

I've been racing my Schumacher since the week they came out and have thoroughly enjoyed it, as I last raced 12th and mardave ministock 22years+ ago. Really enjoyed the class at my local club YMRC, which moved from a purely mardave club to the gt12 early on. Clarification of some rules is needed, as I see confusion outside of my club, on forums and gt12 facebook group. Too many rules and regs will surely kill the class as quick as it arrived however.

Personally I think the class works very well with 1S/13.5t/blinky, and the notion of running 2S/21.5 should be dropped as it only confuses newcomers, meaning they could spend on that setup, then discover they have to spend again.

bodyshell painting rules are a ridiculous idea. If I had a real GT race car, I could paint it how I wished!

I don't see the need for separate gt12.1 or .2 classes. It should just be gt12 as the gt12.1 rules. Every car I see has some form of non kit mod, be it different battery holders, Ali nuts or a diff. Every mardave owner I know has none kit bits, as do lots of Schumacher owners. Sure limit titanium turnbuckles and carbon chassis hopups, etc, but if you are going to have box stock and hopupped cars in different classes, but running on the track together, what's the point? Just run with one class. box stock car can be setup and driven to win over a modded car with a diff, etc with good setup and driving. People will always like to add little upgrades to any car in any price range. Sure no non-kit titanium or carbon is fair though, with the £99 kit price limit. You don't require a diff to win, and the split of mardave/ Schumacher chassis at meetings prove both work at all levels, Z to A final.

[reg]

As said above,I dont agree with the body shell design,yes an authentic design does look nice,but as said above,alot of people(my self included)over the years have got there own colours and design.

[luniemiester]

I've been looking at this class for a few weeks now as an alternative to off-road and I also don't like the proposed rule regarding the painting of the shells. I use my own design and colours on all my cars, I couldn't even tell you what a real GT car paint job looks like as I don't follow GT racing but I do like the look of this class for close cheap racing. What would happen if you had 4-5 drivers in the same race with the same paint scheme - new spectators wouldn't know which car was which after a few laps.....

If I remember correctly they tried to bring this rule in when the F1 cars became popular again and I dropped out of that as it made me lose interest.

[sparkyboy22]

I couldn't even tell you what a real GT car paint job looks like as I don't follow GT racing There are only around 10 designs and I dont think theres a decent looking one between them!

Personally I think the class works very well with 1S/13.5t/blinky, and the notion of running 2S/21.5 should be dropped as it only confuses newcomers, meaning they could spend on that setup, then discover they have to spend again.
I went 2S to start with and the bought another set of electrics to switch to 1S. Really should try and avoid this but dont forget all the others that have already set themselves up at 2S

[TrevCoult]

I went 2S to start with and the bought another set of electrics to switch to 1S. Really should try and avoid this but dont forget all the others that have already set themselves up at 2S

Don't forget these rules are for nationals only. Clubs can still run what they like. 2s is being removed from these rules as it has just confused what is actually allowed to be used at nationals. 2s was only originally added to the rules in the first place for clubs.

I must have seen well over 100 GT12s now and I have NEVER seen a 2s car. It must be a regional thing. It is definitely much rarer than 1s.

Paint scheme - remember it is a proposal, not a rule. Seems to be almost universally unpopular. I have suggested an alternative on the other forum.

Trev

[russmini]

Bodyshells, agree with the majority so far. I've got two being done at the moment and I actually said to Carl to do them in my colours and style, but to tweak the design to better fit a GT shell. I'm awaiting the outcome.

Diffs, already replied on this one on Racechat, NO! In GT12 Production. That really is all you need to go up that next level, it makes a Huge difference. They're £32, which is a 3rd of a whole kit! And as for running stock Neal, I do. I ran box stock all National weekend and admittedly was not at the front (lack of diff), but ran pretty well tbh.

Keep GT12 Production as Box Stock. Nothing allowed extra, just different springs, o-rings and foams, that's all.

And no to everyone thinking, well you run your LiPo system. At the National I took it off and ran Velcro, and yes, it was horrible, lol.

[SlowOne]

Thanks for all the considered feedback it is appreciated.

General consensus is that the body painting is not a good idea, but there is some support for having lights, grilles, windows as per the real cars, and not stylised.

Most want to keep GT12.2 (Production) as it is, so there's a no-brainer!

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to the debate. The EGM is next April so plenty of time for more views and ideas.

[foggy444]

Fully agree with everyone on the bodyshell proposal. I think we should all be able to go with our own schemes. But I do agree that lights should be depicted in all cases. Not so sure about grills, but that's because my painting skills are rudimentary at best and I despise stick on decals with a passion!

As to renaming the classes I agree with that, but think the rules need to be tougher on the 'production' class ie, control motor, speedo and battery as well as a control tyre.

A lot of people will disagree with this but it would make for a very cheap pure stock class, and might even encourage more take up at the national level.

[mark christopher]

Fully agree with everyone on the bodyshell proposal. I think we should all be able to go with our own schemes. But I do agree that lights should be depicted in all cases. Not so sure about grills, but that's because my painting skills are rudimentary at best and I despise stick on decals with a passion!

As to renaming the classes I agree with that, but think the rules need to be tougher on the 'production' class ie, control motor, speedo and battery as well as a control tyre.

A lot of people will disagree with this but it would make for a very cheap pure stock class, and might even encourage more take up at the national level.
assuming you have done a national , you would know that control tyre is a no go as both chassis use different shores to stop grip roll or even get grip, you could end up with one tyre and one of each car that suits the grip/tyre on the day
as for control speedo motor etc, that adds cost as the only way to police that is have a set motor/speedo/lipo, some racers use old speedos or given speedos to keep cost down and you will force them to buy a "spec" set
the idea is to have both classis run side by side

[Dave Dodd]

we included 2s at our club to make it easier for members to switch to gt12, although we only have 3 2s drivers all the rest are 1s.

as for control electrics it would be expensive and unfair to all who have paid out already.

control foams wouldnt work as the 2 chassis's work differently

[SlowOne]

Control tyres is a no-no in foam classes as Mark says. Only if the cars are way over-tyred, like GT10s, does it have any merit. Bearing in mind the price and the lack of wear, tyres are not an expense in the same way as any other electric class.

The control electrics is more interesting. Whilst it seems like a good idea, there are so many second-hand items on the market these days that it is often cheaper to go that route than to buy even the great deals from Mardave and Schumacher. Also, as Dave Dodd points out, if we change the rules now, those wanting to enter next year will have to fork out again for all their electrics.

The reality is that control classes have never worked. Back in the early 1980s 8th Track tried a thing called Club 20. I think every electric and gas Section has tried a control of some area of their rules or another, all have failed completely. In electrics, we are left with control tyres in TC and Off-Road and that's it. Since GT12 control tyres will give everyone a headache at one time or another due to track, car and driving style differences, it's not something that should be contemplated.

Thanks again for everyone's interest in GT12, it is appreciated.

[SlowOne]

Double post. :blush:

[Robocop]

Think the only thing i want gone is reverse,how many times have you passed a car that has reverse for it to shoot out and hit you ??

[russmini]

Yep, totally agree. Especially at Nationals. If you're at a level where you attend and race at a National, then you shouldn't need reverse!
It also makes sure everyone knows if you crash, to go and get you. Marshalls hesitate now, just in case you have reverse and they're wasting their time going to get you. Also reversing out into other competitors path and causing crashes and ruining their race.. And flying out under Marshalls feet...

As you can see, I detest Reverse, it should be Banned at Nationals, and Regionals for that matter... Club racing, maybe allowed, but only in Heat 1.

[LongRat]

While the bodyshell painting rule is not a good idea, worse still is the limitation on the shells themselves. I don't understand why we can't use any shell available for the chassis. They are all made by the same company anyway, and there are so many to choose from! That's probably the thing I like the most about the class. Why shouldn't I be allowed to come and test my mk1 Escort against the Ascaris? Works pretty well at my club.

[SlowOne]

For the same reason you are not allowed to use Sports shells at a TC race, saloon shells in 8th Track F1, Indy cars in the F1 class - this class is for GT cars currently running in British and FIA GT classes.

The class is not for the chassis with any shell, it is for GT cars running chassis conforming to those rules. There are classes for Mk1 Escorts and all the other shells Kamtec offer, so if you want to run a shell there is probably a class for it. More shells will be available in the months to come for GT12, so hopefully there will be one that takes your fancy. HTH :)

[RCMadShane]

Well I am amazed to read you guys all talking about dropping the 21.5 2s as this is almost the only setup which is run at our club also the Chippenham Winter Indoor Championship as around 20 drivers running the Superstox and I am sure nearly all of them have converted to the 2s system because of issues running 13.5.
Going forward the rules need to be sorted, worrying about body shells is small fry compared the mess that will be caused by changing the entire electrics of the car.. can we please get the core sorted.

[mark christopher]

Well I am amazed to read you guys all talking about dropping the 21.5 2s as this is almost the only setup which is run at our club also the Chippenham Winter Indoor Championship as around 20 drivers running the Superstox and I am sure nearly all of them have converted to the 2s system because of issues running 13.5.
Going forward the rules need to be sorted, worrying about body shells is small fry compared the mess that will be caused by changing the entire electrics of the car.. can we please get the core sorted.

im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.
id be interested to see how many of your racers run 0deg motor timing and how you police it though. my local club i have not heard of any 1s issue unles your missguided as to what to run/do

[LongRat]

For the same reason you are not allowed to use Sports shells at a TC race, saloon shells in 8th Track F1, Indy cars in the F1 class - this class is for GT cars currently running in British and FIA GT classes.

The class is not for the chassis with any shell, it is for GT cars running chassis conforming to those rules. There are classes for Mk1 Escorts and all the other shells Kamtec offer, so if you want to run a shell there is probably a class for it. More shells will be available in the months to come for GT12, so hopefully there will be one that takes your fancy. HTH :)

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.

[LongRat]

I would also back up Shane on his point. It really is difficult to see where 1 cell wins out. It costs more, with a booster the set up is more complex, the cell is pushed harder, there is a smaller selection of compatible electronics and there are a lot more documented reliability issues running powerful servos, PTs etc. While I know a couple of voices are not going to change the views of the majority, I really struggle to understand why 1 cell is so favoured.

[RCMadShane]

im strongly for retaining 1s only at nationals, clubs can do what they want, but why not follow the national route, 2s has never been a national class.the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class.
id be interested to see how many of your racers run 0deg motor timing and how you police it though. my local club i have not heard of any 1s issue unles your missguided as to what to run/do

This is not good… Clubs need to stay close to whatever the BRCA rule book decides. We had a massive problem because the GT12 rules were not sorted so many of our guys went in all different directions.. Then when the winter series started most of the drivers had to go out and buy what we thought was going to be the BRCA regulation.. Which in our ears was
13.5 1s Timed ---- OR ---- 21.5 2s Blinky
The 21.5 must have no motor timing and a number of motors were supposedly put forward which is what we are using… This is easily policed.. Blinky is what it says… your speedo Blinks.. to be honest it is obvious if you have a cheater
Where is it documented what the “National Class” is you say “the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class” I thought that the 2s was part of the BRCA rules so therefore is a National class.
I am sure the failure to sort this could cause serious issues with the class and could be quite damaging to its future..

[mark christopher]

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.


odd how off road uses the same description of body shell, yet thats not suffering, the class is gt, and shells need to be approved, ginetta and aston shells are on the way. but escort would not be approved

[mark christopher]

This is not good… Clubs need to stay close to whatever the BRCA rule book decides. We had a massive problem because the GT12 rules were not sorted so many of our guys went in all different directions.. Then when the winter series started most of the drivers had to go out and buy what we thought was going to be the BRCA regulation.. Which in our ears was
13.5 1s Timed ---- OR ---- 21.5 2s Blinky
The 21.5 must have no motor timing and a number of motors were supposedly put forward which is what we are using… This is easily policed.. Blinky is what it says… your speedo Blinks.. to be honest it is obvious if you have a cheater
Where is it documented what the “National Class” is you say “the 2 s rules just confuse new drivers into thinking its a national class” I thought that the 2s was part of the BRCA rules so therefore is a National class.
I am sure the failure to sort this could cause serious issues with the class and could be quite damaging to its future..


hmmm this is my point

im not sure when winter serries start in your area but the GT rules were published around the 6/12 http://rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?65323-GT12-Rules-a-clarification

this is taken from the 12gt entry
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=content/brca-gt12-sunday-r6-tonbridge/17806


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level.


2s 21.5 has never been a national class, as i said some people have been confused or missinformed, hence my reason to get rid of 21.5 rules, clubs can do thier own thing. its sshould have been 1s only from the start, the cheap combos work well and robin schumacher puts his car in national a finals, you just need to make sure you fit a suitable servo, £130 sees you with 1s lipo/speedo/motor and suitable servo. you just need the correct info.

[mark christopher]

I would also back up Shane on his point. It really is difficult to see where 1 cell wins out. It costs more, with a booster the set up is more complex, the cell is pushed harder, there is a smaller selection of compatible electronics and there are a lot more documented reliability issues running powerful servos, PTs etc. While I know a couple of voices are not going to change the views of the majority, I really struggle to understand why 1 cell is so favoured.

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

[f888fhw]

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.

[Dave Dodd]

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.

the brca rules are there only for national events and a guide for clubs, clubs can if they wish do anything they like so long as there members are happy.

As this was the first year gt12 had its own rules, i think 2s was included just to help clubs get an idea of what to do.

So your club if running 2s should carry on, if there is a healthy number of racers doing the same.

we decided at an early stage that we would follow the rules as closely as possible but allowing 1s, 2s & g2 to run side by side, which means visitors can come along from other clubs knowing they will fit in.

[Dave Dodd]

Think the only thing i want gone is reverse,how many times have you passed a car that has reverse for it to shoot out and hit you ??

totally agree, it should be banned from nationals. :thumbsup:

clubs night fair enough, though annoying for marshals. :lol:

[f888fhw]

the brca rules are there only for national events and a guide for clubs, clubs can if they wish do anything they like so long as there members are happy.

As this was the first year gt12 had its own rules, i think 2s was included just to help clubs get an idea of what to do.

So your club if running 2s should carry on, if there is a healthy number of racers doing the same.

we decided at an early stage that we would follow the rules as closely as possible but allowing 1s, 2s & g2 to run side by side, which means visitors can come along from other clubs knowing they will fit in.

From what i have been told one of my clubs is going to run exactly to BRCA rules. So if i still want to race im going to have to fork out £130 - £170 to carry on racing.

£90 for the ESC, motor, and core single cell.

£40 - 80 for additional cells.

Is this still just a proposal? or is the 21.5 removed from the rules now?

For me the timing thing is not a problem, it is as quick to show you are running blinky on the esc as it is to show the end bell is set @ 0.

[qatmix]

You could race touring cars? Much less hassle and just as cheap.

[RCMadShane]

Sorry guys I don’t know what the hell is going on.. This is the best way to kill a class before its properly established!!!!

This is the current rules on the BRCA website:…
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572 (http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572)
and it states...........
3 Definition of Brushless Motor
3.1 13.5 brushless - Any motor listed in any of the Electric Board Homologation List for Brushless Spec Motors (13.5) as updated from time to time.
3.2 21.5 brushless - Any motors listed in Appendix 3 to these Rules

Appendix Three – 21.5 motors allowed – (Construction) Rule 3.2
21.5t motors which have locked or fixed mechanical timing (ideally from the EB list) are suggested. For example:
HobbyWing / Xerun “Stock” 2.15t (part number 90040150/1)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V2 21.5t (Part Number SPF21V2)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V3 21.5t (Part Number SP00008)
Novak SS Pro 21.5t (Part Number 3421)
Losi Xcelron 21.5t (Part Number LOSB9409)
The Corally Pro Red motor is specifically excluded. If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees.
(Intent – that the 21.5 motors are not used with mechanical timing advanced as this will give a performance advantage over the 13.5/1S combinations. It is intended that use of 2S cells simplifies installation, not gives a performance advantage.)
So to be messing around now is just taking the “p” people are buying kits for Christmas presents and they could end up with rubbish
:mad::mad::mad:

[sosidge]

The 2s/21.5 rule should never have been put in the book. It was well intentioned, no doubt about that, but all it has done is cause confusion - and certainly not an equivalency. Removing them going forward is the right decision.

If you read the rulebook in full, you will see that 21.5 is a "suggested" rule for club racing and NOT a legal powerplant at the BRCA nationals. Never has been.

Clubs, as ever, are free to choose their classes.

I do believe there is a place for a 2s powerplant in the class, and certainly at club level - most people I know that have run both prefer the 2s option because there is less hassle with the electrics. 2s/21.5 does seem faster than the "equivalent" 1s/13.5 which is a potential issue, although at club level I suspect that the greater accessibility to racers of 2s/21.5 is more important than giving racers the chance to run at a National without changing parts on their car.

So... buy what is required for the racing you want to do... for BRCA Nationals, it's 13.5/1s, for club, it could be something completely different.

[LongRat]

cost more?

£130 for core 1s speedo/13.5 motor and 1s lipo and a 12th savox servo!
no booster needed, not complex, as its wired the same as a 2s system
all above work on 1s
its cheap and simple...

Indeed, somewhat more. I run the Hobbywing sensorless setup, £60 for motor and ESC and an £11 2S LiPo. Any servo will work.
The main thing is that it will be so much less stressed on 2S. Although the 1S and 2S cars are similarly paced, 1S systems are pushing about twice the current which heats up motors and ESCs and kills cells quicker. I wouldn't be comfortable running one pack for a whole meeting on 1S which is my current practice. I am not arguing that it doesn't work, but it is wrong to exclude 2S as a confusion. Newcomers generally don't race at National meetings, nobody is getting confused about anything. The fact is, 1S should never have been started and from a purely technical point of view, it is 1S that should be banned and 2S only allowed if there's some sort of confusion to be avoided.

[RogerM]

Oh dear, SOMETHING needs to happen as since the beggining of GT12 I've wanted to race this class, especially at my local club. However in order for me, and many many many many others I suspect, to take the plunge there needs to be a very clearly stated set of totally unambegious rules.

This is crazy! Please for your own sake, and that of the clubs, sort this mess out! I currently would rather do a 100 mile round trip to race a different class than go to a club less than 4 miles from my house to run GT12 as I KNOW whatever I buy will be the wrong damn thing in a few months time.

The class looks great fun, should be super close racing ... please don't kill it!!

[RCMadShane]

LOL.. LongRat that’s fighting talk :-)

But to be honest I thought the 12th pan car was the 1s system.. This is a new class so time for a change.. Also…. is it not aimed for the new young drivers? It needs to be cheep and easy

If people want to stick with old system why don’t they go back to the 12th?

And really what is wrong with mixing the 13.5 and the 21.5.

Bottom line is what the BRCA say must go… so the real question is when is the 2013 rules going to be distributed??

[mark christopher]

From what i have been told one of my clubs is going to run exactly to BRCA rules. So if i still want to race im going to have to fork out £130 - £170 to carry on racing.

£90 for the ESC, motor, and core single cell.

£40 - 80 for additional cells.

Is this still just a proposal? or is the 21.5 removed from the rules now?

For me the timing thing is not a problem, it is as quick to show you are running blinky on the esc as it is to show the end bell is set @ 0.

Sorry but that's more miss information, just because an endbell says 0 degree does not mean its timed at 0 degree, hence the specific motor list.

The plan is to remove for next season after the egm. As has been said clubs can still do what they like. It's not a national rules and should not be shown with the .national rules.

[mark christopher]

You could race touring cars? Much less hassle and just as cheap.

Maybe on your planet
New gt car with diff 130 for a top level kit
Top level tc 300 yup I see your point

[f888fhw]

Sorry but that's more miss information, just because an endbell says 0 degree does not mean its timed at 0 degree, hence the specific motor list.

The plan is to remove for next season after the egm. As has been said clubs can still do what they like. It's not a national rules and should not be shown with the .national rules.

Understand what you are saying regarding the endbell, but i can say if it is blinking it is not actually stock.......

The motor list also has the line "If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees"

[mark christopher]

Indeed, somewhat more. I run the Hobbywing sensorless setup, £60 for motor and ESC and an £11 2S LiPo. Any servo will work.
The main thing is that it will be so much less stressed on 2S. Although the 1S and 2S cars are similarly paced, 1S systems are pushing about twice the current which heats up motors and ESCs and kills cells quicker. I wouldn't be comfortable running one pack for a whole meeting on 1S which is my current practice. I am not arguing that it doesn't work, but it is wrong to exclude 2S as a confusion. Newcomers generally don't race at National meetings, nobody is getting confused about anything. The fact is, 1S should never have been started and from a purely technical point of view, it is 1S that should be banned and 2S only allowed if there's some sort of confusion to be avoided.

More rubbish
Mardave class was allways 4 cell nicad,nimh before it went to gt. Not 6 cell which would be 2s.

I did a 2 day national on one 1s cell, no performance change. Full entries of 1s cars at nationals shows 1s is the class...

[keenbutkrap]

go down the fusion exceed route £80 motor speed control combo buggy saddle packs 2 for the price of one 1s buy a fast servo off ebay job done works without a booster if it all goes ti-s up can buy a buggy for less than a gt12 and have some fun in the dirt without all this politics stuff i did and dont miss it at all all this petty rambling is taking the fun out of gt12 pick a system and someone will try and introduce a "better"one usualy someone who has deep pocket and little talent and uses deep pockets to win run what you want but make sure everyone runs the same try not to mix 1s and 2s it will end in tears

[mark christopher]

Oh dear, SOMETHING needs to happen as since the beggining of GT12 I've wanted to race this class, especially at my local club. However in order for me, and many many many many others I suspect, to take the plunge there needs to be a very clearly stated set of totally unambegious rules.

This is crazy! Please for your own sake, and that of the clubs, sort this mess out! I currently would rather do a 100 mile round trip to race a different class than go to a club less than 4 miles from my house to run GT12 as I KNOW whatever I buy will be the wrong damn thing in a few months time.

The class looks great fun, should be super close racing ... please don't kill it!!

You seem to be miss in formed, there are a clear set of rules for nationals, 1s 13.5 only, clubs may use 2s 21.5 at the clubs disgretion. 1s is here to stay.

The rules are set for gt class in April when the 12th section has its agm. Ie end of the 12th season.

[mark christopher]

Understand what you are saying regarding the endbell, but i can say if it is blinking it is not actually stock.......

The motor list also has the line "If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees"

To check a Speedo is in blinky mode you need to compare it to the list.

Do you know how to check your motor is in 0 timing without using the marks, there is a way

[RCMadShane]

Its all very well to say a club can do what it likes but in reality this is a bad thing, as we found out to our cost… People get a great boost by racing in a National event you get too see much more and really get a chance to spread out but if you do not follow the BRCA rule book then this is out of the question.. you then end up with those with money or who are sponsored who can and those who have to go it alone who can't..

I do not believe this should be the way of the GT12 class

You want to go pro go 12th or TC lets not be so tight on the GT12 otherwise there is no where for the young guns to start

[mark christopher]

Sorry guys I don’t know what the hell is going on.. This is the best way to kill a class before its properly established!!!!

This is the current rules on the BRCA website:…
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572 (http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572)
and it states...........
3 Definition of Brushless Motor
3.1 13.5 brushless - Any motor listed in any of the Electric Board Homologation List for Brushless Spec Motors (13.5) as updated from time to time.
3.2 21.5 brushless - Any motors listed in Appendix 3 to these Rules

Appendix Three – 21.5 motors allowed – (Construction) Rule 3.2
21.5t motors which have locked or fixed mechanical timing (ideally from the EB list) are suggested. For example:
HobbyWing / Xerun “Stock” 2.15t (part number 90040150/1)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V2 21.5t (Part Number SPF21V2)
SpeedPassion Ultra Sportsman V3 21.5t (Part Number SP00008)
Novak SS Pro 21.5t (Part Number 3421)
Losi Xcelron 21.5t (Part Number LOSB9409)
The Corally Pro Red motor is specifically excluded. If a model is chosen that does have a degree of mechanically adjustable timing it is up to the driver to prove that the timing is set to zero degrees.
(Intent – that the 21.5 motors are not used with mechanical timing advanced as this will give a performance advantage over the 13.5/1S combinations. It is intended that use of 2S cells simplifies installation, not gives a performance advantage.)
So to be messing around now is just taking the “p” people are buying kits for Christmas presents and they could end up with rubbish
:mad::mad::mad:




So remove all that and everyone knows what to buy, job done....

[RCMadShane]

So remove all that and everyone knows what to buy, job done....


I think not... Please show me where in the Rules (Link below) that it states that 21.5 is for club only??

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572

[f888fhw]

So remove all that and everyone knows what to buy, job done....

But what about the people that have already gone the 2s route!

Also from what i have seen 4 cell is a million mile away from 1s/13.5 so it should not be in the rules also then!

[SlowOne]

Steady Tigers!

1S systems do not put more stress on the motors than any other system. Whilst they have a higher current draw they have much lower revs. If you over-gear any motor on any system you will wreck it. On 2S, the motors rev higher putting higher mechanical strain on the parts. If you run 1S you put a higher electrical load on the motor. It's a trade of one set of strains on the motor for another. In both systems if you do not correctly gear a motor you will harm the rotor, but we have never, ever had a rotor explode on 1S whereas it has happened in 2S. I've never had a bearing replaced in a motor on 1S, but plenty were replaced at the Worlds on 2S. Different systems, different strains, different results, both able to toast a motor if incorrectly geared.

As for the cells you may think what you like but the facts are against you. Any 1S pack on the BRCA list will last you 200+ races or more even in a 12th Modified car before you could even call it tired. At club it will go even longer. Interestingly, the biggest growing electric classes in the last five years are the 1S classes - 12th, GT10, GT12 and F1 - in all corners of the world. If 1S was a cell-killer it would have got nowhere. You are entitled to your opinion, but for everyone else your summary does not reflect the facts.

Roger, I am sorry you find the Rules confusing. Here's it in a nutshell:

For National racing we run 13.5BL with 1S cells. For anyone organising meetings outside Nationals we have put in details of G2/4-cell and 21.5/2S to use.

The G2/4-cell needs no further clarification. For the 21.5/2S we gave guidance in two areas - a list of motors locked on timing so performance is closer, and using 'micro' 2S cells for which there is no BRCA list.

A car must be supplied as a rolling chassis, with wheels and tyres for £100. Whatever chassis comes with that car is what you use. If you want to modify the car and use a diff it races in GT12.1. If you just want to tune springs, dampers, etc. and run without a diff you can run on GT12.2.

Taking your point, I will make sure that such a summary is available on the BRCA website for 2013. I take issue with the 'mess' description as you are the only person to mention that since we started. I have had a lot of questions, but no one prepared to travel as far as you to avoid the class!! I'll try to make this a non-issue for you with the 2013 rules as I am mindful that you might be saying what others are only thinking! :)

To clear the rest up - we will have something on 2S classes more easily discoverable in the rules, and we will not be doing any more on bodies than presently in the Rules. Reverse can be discussed only if someone puts a proposal up for it, and the 2013/14 rules will be published next April after the EGM in early April.

If there's anything else, please come back an ask. It would be great if we could please all the people all the time, but we are realists! nonetheless, as I have said before, your feedback is appreciated and valuable. Please be part of any changes - things suggested on here will not make it into the Rules unless they are proposed at the EGM, discussed and voted on. Play your part to shape your class! :)

[RogerM]

That is the problem Mark, I'mmmissing informed, little Johnny who wants to start racing is alsommisinformed & his dad thinks "stuff this, a play station is easier" & yet another junior racer is lost forever.
Mardave's have always been a great place to start racing... until now it seem . :-(

[Dave Dodd]

Indeed, somewhat more. I run the Hobbywing sensorless setup, £60 for motor and ESC and an £11 2S LiPo. Any servo will work.
The main thing is that it will be so much less stressed on 2S. Although the 1S and 2S cars are similarly paced, 1S systems are pushing about twice the current which heats up motors and ESCs and kills cells quicker. I wouldn't be comfortable running one pack for a whole meeting on 1S which is my current practice. I am not arguing that it doesn't work, but it is wrong to exclude 2S as a confusion. Newcomers generally don't race at National meetings, nobody is getting confused about anything. The fact is, 1S should never have been started and from a purely technical point of view, it is 1S that should be banned and 2S only allowed if there's some sort of confusion to be avoided.

I use a core 45 esc on 1s using half saddles from my buggy, my 13.5 bl motor comes off track only luke warm, as the esc can only draw an average 45 amps whereas my 2wd buggy has a 150 amp esc on 2s which means its drawing 3x as much and twice the voltage.. :eh?:
....................

[LongRat]

More rubbish
Mardave class was allways 4 cell nicad,nimh before it went to gt. Not 6 cell which would be 2s.

I did a 2 day national on one 1s cell, no performance change. Full entries of 1s cars at nationals shows 1s is the class...

Sorry man but 4 cell NiMh does not equal 1S LiPo. There is a +30% nominal voltage difference (4.8V/3.7V), which is the cause of the problems on 1 cell systems. The voltage difference between 6 cell NiMh and 2S is nominally only +3% which isn't a problem at all. The huge current and therefore significant voltage sag seen in 1S only compounds the problem, as Mardaves ran low power motors that never asked much of the 4 cell NiCds this issue never arose there.

These issues will not kill the class, it is too much fun to race for that. But you'll end up with a fixed elite doing Nationals with much less penetration from club racers wishing to give it a go. None of us have the full picture on what systems are used nationwide in GT12 clubs, but for sure there are many, many people using 2 cell LiPos.

[Dave Dodd]

That is the problem Mark, I'mmmissing informed, little Johnny who wants to start racing is alsommisinformed & his dad thinks "stuff this, a play station is easier" & yet another junior racer is lost forever.
Mardave's have always been a great place to start racing... until now it seem . :-(


Thats why it always best for little johnny and his dad to visit local clubs to find out some information and be guided to the right path.. but they may still go away and come with something entilely different from what you suggested..
mardaves are still a good place to start and most likely would have been 4cell - which as we all know is 1s..... :D
or Oval stock car/hot rod 6cell - 2s

[keenbutkrap]

little jonny goes to his local modelshop and ask what have you got not many will say mardave as for cost a 1/10 buggy ready to run is less than a mardave kit and can be run anywhere gt12 is now a racers class not a beginners

[Dave Dodd]

Sorry man but 4 cell NiMh does not equal 1S LiPo. There is a +30% nominal voltage difference (4.8V/3.7V), which is the cause of the problems on 1 cell systems. The voltage difference between 6 cell NiMh and 2S is nominally only +3% which isn't a problem at all. The huge current and therefore significant voltage sag seen in 1S only compounds the problem, as Mardaves ran low power motors that never asked much of the 4 cell NiCds this issue never arose there.

These issues will not kill the class, it is too much fun to race for that. But you'll end up with a fixed elite doing Nationals with much less penetration from club racers wishing to give it a go. None of us have the full picture on what systems are used nationwide in GT12 clubs, but for sure there are many, many people using 2 cell LiPos.


thats why 1s is for bl and 4cell g2.. 4cell powering a 13.5 bl is stupid quick.. TBH im glad i dont use cells anymore (all that charging and discharging got on my tits, havent the time) - lipos are brilliant :D
..............

i honestly havent spent a fortune on buying top gear, core esc, half saddles, dynamite 13.5 bl was even using a rtr servo up untill i crashed, so now have savox 1357.. 40 megs radio and pt ive had for 4-5yrs... im just an average driver, most of the stuff ive got is second hand :cry::lol:
but i will be racing at the tamworth national on sunday, just for the experiance of doing so and no doubt i'll be in the bottom final. :lol:

[furball85]

also hotrods for 2013 are 1s, so are stockcars if running bl!!

[mark christopher]

I think not... Please show me where in the Rules (Link below) that it states that 21.5 is for club only??

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572


exactly its not clear as the "club guide lines" are in the rules as an a apendix.

21.5 is NOT a national class

try reading the entry form, i have posted this before and Look at section 7 of the rules

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=content/brca-gt12-saturday-r6-tonbridge/17800


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[mark christopher]

But what about the people that have already gone the 2s route!



easy, keep running it at thier club at club level and buy 1s if they wish to go to a national...

[mark christopher]

That is the problem Mark, I'mmmissing informed, little Johnny who wants to start racing is alsommisinformed & his dad thinks "stuff this, a play station is easier" & yet another junior racer is lost forever.
Mardave's have always been a great place to start racing... until now it seem . :-(

it still is, you just need to make sure you have the correct info, as i did, i emailed the 12th officials who were more than willing to ensure i got the correct facts in my head, the reason i "seem to know" about this subject is because i took time to find out and spent time chatting to pete winton (slow one)

[mark christopher]

Steady Tigers!

1S systems do not put more stress on the motors than any other system. Whilst they have a higher current draw they have much lower revs. If you over-gear any motor on any system you will wreck it. On 2S, the motors rev higher putting higher mechanical strain on the parts. If you run 1S you put a higher electrical load on the motor. It's a trade of one set of strains on the motor for another. In both systems if you do not correctly gear a motor you will harm the rotor, but we have never, ever had a rotor explode on 1S whereas it has happened in 2S. I've never had a bearing replaced in a motor on 1S, but plenty were replaced at the Worlds on 2S. Different systems, different strains, different results, both able to toast a motor if incorrectly geared.

As for the cells you may think what you like but the facts are against you. Any 1S pack on the BRCA list will last you 200+ races or more even in a 12th Modified car before you could even call it tired. At club it will go even longer. Interestingly, the biggest growing electric classes in the last five years are the 1S classes - 12th, GT10, GT12 and F1 - in all corners of the world. If 1S was a cell-killer it would have got nowhere. You are entitled to your opinion, but for everyone else your summary does not reflect the facts.

Roger, I am sorry you find the Rules confusing. Here's it in a nutshell:

For National racing we run 13.5BL with 1S cells. For anyone organising meetings outside Nationals we have put in details of G2/4-cell and 21.5/2S to use.

The G2/4-cell needs no further clarification. For the 21.5/2S we gave guidance in two areas - a list of motors locked on timing so performance is closer, and using 'micro' 2S cells for which there is no BRCA list.

A car must be supplied as a rolling chassis, with wheels and tyres for £100. Whatever chassis comes with that car is what you use. If you want to modify the car and use a diff it races in GT12.1. If you just want to tune springs, dampers, etc. and run without a diff you can run on GT12.2.

Taking your point, I will make sure that such a summary is available on the BRCA website for 2013. I take issue with the 'mess' description as you are the only person to mention that since we started. I have had a lot of questions, but no one prepared to travel as far as you to avoid the class!! I'll try to make this a non-issue for you with the 2013 rules as I am mindful that you might be saying what others are only thinking! :)

To clear the rest up - we will have something on 2S classes more easily discoverable in the rules, and we will not be doing any more on bodies than presently in the Rules. Reverse can be discussed only if someone puts a proposal up for it, and the 2013/14 rules will be published next April after the EGM in early April.

If there's anything else, please come back an ask. It would be great if we could please all the people all the time, but we are realists! nonetheless, as I have said before, your feedback is appreciated and valuable. Please be part of any changes - things suggested on here will not make it into the Rules unless they are proposed at the EGM, discussed and voted on. Play your part to shape your class! :)
cheers pete did not want to start pointing him towards the correct lipo/motor facts too, knew you would get here in the end:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

The huge current and therefore significant voltage sag seen in 1S only compounds the problem,

im not sure where you are getting your "workings" from but your way out...

for example the core 1s system is a 45 amp speedo, now that means it can only pass 45 amps from the lipo to the motor, and the motor is not drawing enough to pop speedo's

i get the feeling your just anti 1s

what 2s lipo do you use and from what class did your gear come from prior to gt?

[mark christopher]

little jonny goes to his local modelshop and ask what have you got not many will say mardave as for cost a 1/10 buggy ready to run is less than a mardave kit and can be run anywhere gt12 is now a racers class not a beginners


so why are clubs thriving and gt class is the biggest grower indoors?

[LongRat]

Well put points, but electrical loads affect the whole car (motor, ESC, battery), whereas mechanicals only affect the motor. So I stand by my opinion that 1S puts higher loads on the car's power system. I'm currently making a finned aluminium pod floor for a GT10 car to get rid of more heat for this very reason - to allow bigger gearing in 1S without blowing up the motor. I never said 1S would be a cell-killer, or motor-killer. But it WILL load these components to a higher level.

[mark christopher]

Well put points, but electrical loads affect the whole car (motor, ESC, battery), whereas mechanicals only affect the motor. So I stand by my opinion that 1S puts higher loads on the car's power system. I'm currently making a finned aluminium pod floor for a GT10 car to get rid of more heat for this very reason - to allow bigger gearing in 1S without blowing up the motor. I never said 1S would be a cell-killer, or motor-killer. But it WILL load these components to a higher level.
well i disagree with your opinion then

[LongRat]

Mark, we do disagree, I have stated my opinions so we can leave it at that. This is something we do agree on!

My workings come from this:
1S and 2S cars lap a track at a similar pace. They therefore are producing similar power levels. 1S car does so at half the supply voltage, so must draw about twice the current to achieve this. Resistive losses scale as the square of the current, this is where the extra heat comes from. Your 45A speedo will not restrict the current flow to 45A. It might just overheat if the continuous draw exceeds this value though. Instantaneous spikes of somewhat over 100A are very likely. Modern cells can take this, but of course the 1S system NEEDS to be heavily loaded up (geared) to get any performance out of it so it isn't doing the battery any favours. In an era where people are so conscious of battery safety, this appears to be a strange move.

I use Loong-Max 2300 2S batteries in a solid machined case that I manufacture and sell. Prior to GT12 I raced touring, before that I raced GT10 (as a 2 cell). I also race off road 2wd occasionally and have 1/10 SC truck and several nitros. I have been involved in RC for 15 years and been manufacturing components for 5 years. I had one of the first brushless drive systems for RC cars in the UK in January 2000.
I am indeed strongly anti 1S. That's my history, cheers.

DAVE

[f888fhw]

easy, keep running it at thier club at club level and buy 1s if they wish to go to a national...

But i cant, if you remove the 21.5 / 2s from the club guide lines / rules the club will not let me run, and i will have to spend £150 / 180 to carry on running at the club......

The club is only going to run the brca rules to the letter. No mention of 21.5 = a big waste of my money and having to spend more....

[LongRat]

I guess you could slap your stuff on Ebay immediately before anyone realises it isn't legal and buy some 1 cell stuff...

[Dave Dodd]

But i cant, if you remove the 21.5 / 2s from the club guide lines / rules the club will not let me run, and i will have to spend £150 / 180 to carry on running at the club......

The club is only going to run the brca rules to the letter. No mention of 21.5 = a big waste of my money and having to spend more....

personnally i think that would be a bad move for your club, upsetting a lot of members :thumbdown:

btw if your using saddles, they are legal to use, the servo u have may be okay too, so its a new esc & motor which could be got for £100 or less..
your esc may handle 1s ? you never know...

[Dave Treacy]

Interesting discussions but I'm not sure anyone has considered the motor wind in the calculations.

For "compable speeds" assuming similar gearing a 21.5T motor is wizzing around at about 60% more RPM that the 13.5. This generates more heat and surely draws more current?

[Paul B]

The 21.5 class has become redundant. It was there because there were too few 1S-ready speed controllers at a fair price. With the new Mardave and Schumacher controllers now available for only £15 more than a good booster on its own, there is no reason to use 2S. Obviously clubs can do what they want, but for Nationals it is a redundant rule and will be removed

I am a little confused by this statement. The 21.5 class being redundant is not my experience at a number of clubs locally, far from it in fact. Whilst it may be the case at national events, it may not necessarily reflect the national club scene. There does not appear to have been any caveat in rules that stated 21.5 would be removed if not taken up at national events.

I find it reassuring that clubs adopt BRCA National rules for the classes they run locally and assumed that the BRCA considered this point when setting (or amending) class rules.

IMO removing this particular section would devalue its currently popular following at a number of club run events and championships. It may even damage what is a growing class that is encouraging new and returning racers.

The general theme of removing previous rule guides, especially recently published items such as this, may also devalue future rules set by the BRCA and I fear, goes against a number of the associations core objectives.

Paul

[LongRat]

Paul - couldn't agree more.

Dave:

If the speeds and gearing are similar, then the motor RPM must be also. The calculations bear this out, using typical motor values:

13.5 motor @ 3300kv, at 3.7V = 12210 RPM
21.5 motor @ 1600kv, at 7.4V = 11840 RPM

So the motors indeed rev to similar speeds. However current draw has nothing to do with RPM in a motor, only torque. While all motors have an RPM/V coeffient known as kv, they also have a torque per amp coefficient called kT which is rarely discussed.

[mark christopher]

Interesting discussions but I'm not sure anyone has considered the motor wind in the calculations.

For "compable speeds" assuming similar gearing a 21.5T motor is wizzing around at about 60% more RPM that the 13.5. This generates more heat and surely draws more current?
spot on dave....

[mark christopher]

Mark, we do disagree, I have stated my opinions so we can leave it at that. This is something we do agree on!


I use Loong-Max 2300 2S batteries in a solid machined case that I manufacture and sell. Prior to GT12 I raced touring, before that I raced GT10 (as a 2 cell). I also race off road 2wd occasionally and have 1/10 SC truck and several nitros. I have been involved in RC for 15 years and been manufacturing components for 5 years. I had one of the first brushless drive systems for RC cars in the UK in January 2000.
I am indeed strongly anti 1S. That's my history, cheers.

DAVE
Ah it makes sence

well i have no "interest" in what class im pushing, my lipo sponsor can supply me 1s or 2s stubby
i have racer elec TC, buggy,f1,12th and sc, 8th off road ic, 10th, 8th off road ic, won nationals and been racing/involded in rc for 30 years. i was one of the first to use lipo power in 4x4 buggies (pre production soft case trackpower) been an active brca section comittee member and a scribe for a uk mag for many years, i believe in the best package for the best classes, giving the racer the best fun. oh and i read rules fully...
thats my history, cheers. :rolleyes:

[mark christopher]

But i cant, if you remove the 21.5 / 2s from the club guide lines / rules the club will not let me run, and i will have to spend £150 / 180 to carry on running at the club......

The club is only going to run the brca rules to the letter. No mention of 21.5 = a big waste of my money and having to spend more....


thats an issue your club needs to decide, the rules they are following are guide lines only...

[mark christopher]

I am a little confused by this statement. The 21.5 class being redundant is not my experience at a number of clubs locally, far from it in fact. Whilst it may be the case at national events, it may not necessarily reflect the national club scene. There does not appear to have been any caveat in rules that stated 21.5 would be removed if not taken up at national events.

I find it reassuring that clubs adopt BRCA National rules for the classes they run locally and assumed that the BRCA considered this point when setting (or amending) class rules.

IMO removing this particular section would devalue its currently popular following at a number of club run events and championships. It may even damage what is a growing class that is encouraging new and returning racers.

The general theme of removing previous rule guides, especially recently published items such as this, may also devalue future rules set by the BRCA and I fear, goes against a number of the associations core objectives.

Paul


just have national rules, i fail to see your point, the elec off road section do not publish different rules for clubs to use, nor do many other sections, clubs simply follow the sections brca rules unless they decide not too

[terry.sc]

Not when your club is going to make you buy new gear, because 2s is being removed from the rules! Im not interested at running at nationals, but dont want to buy new gear just to run at the club.
Please keep a small note in the rules to allow the use of 2s at club level. If this.was not in the rules it would have not been a very difficult decision for me to justify entering this class.
As has been pointed out several times above, what your club decides to do is entirely down to the club and has nothing to do with the BRCA rules. If your club want to run 2S then there is no one stopping them doing so, there isn't going to be anyone from the BRCA committee coming down to check what rules you are running to as the BRCA has no control over what clubs do.

If you are unhappy with what your club is going to do, the people to speak to are your own club members and committee, complaining on here or to the BRCA committee isn't going to make any difference to what your club does.
If there is a group of you who are currently running 2S and want to keep running them then the club must be pretty stupid if they could be turning away current members purely because they aren't capable of managing their own rules and have to adopt what the BRCA run. If everyone else at the club is happy to move to 1S only, then whether the BRCA includes 2S rules in an appendix or not isn't going to make any difference to stopping your club moving to 1S only.

[terry.sc]

Oh dear, SOMETHING needs to happen as since the beggining of GT12 I've wanted to race this class, especially at my local club. However in order for me, and many many many many others I suspect, to take the plunge there needs to be a very clearly stated set of totally unambegious rules.

This is crazy! Please for your own sake, and that of the clubs, sort this mess out! I currently would rather do a 100 mile round trip to race a different class than go to a club less than 4 miles from my house to run GT12 as I KNOW whatever I buy will be the wrong damn thing in a few months time.

The class looks great fun, should be super close racing ... please don't kill it!!
Am I missing something here? Surely the simple way to find out what you need to run at your local club is to go down there and ask them what they run. Why are you making a 100 mile round trip to avoid them because you don't know what rules they run to? The BRCA rules might have no bearing on what they run, the only way to find out what classes they run is to go and ask them.

The BRCA rules for sanctioned national meetings have always been for 1S 13.5. The rules have also always stated the 21.5T appendix was there as a framework for clubs if they want to run 2S.

[Paul B]

I was led to believe that the BRCA set class rules and guidelines to promote the sport and encourage competition. I therefore questioned how removing a previously published guide that had, in part, contributed to the formation of what is becoming a popular class, achieves this.
Paul

[terry.sc]

That is the problem Mark, I'mmmissing informed, little Johnny who wants to start racing is alsommisinformed & his dad thinks "stuff this, a play station is easier" & yet another junior racer is lost forever.
Mardave's have always been a great place to start racing... until now it seem . :-(
Little Johnny who wants to start racing will only be misinformed if he is misinformed by his local club.

No one I have ever known in all my years running a club has decided to start racing and first found out about the BRCA and then bought all his equipment based on the rules for the class he fancies having a go at. Every new racer I have ever known has started by going to his local club and asking questions, and any decent club will tell them what the basics are they need to get them going, not what they must buy to be competitive.

As for new racers buying equipment that isn't BRCA legal, I would say at least 90% of brand new racers will have illegal equipment. RTR touring cars and buggies come with Mabuchi 540 motors, first brushless systems being Hobbywing sensorless systems - cheap but not BRCA legal. Cheap nimh cells that came with the car, again not BRCA legal.
Any decent club shouldn't care what electrics are in a beginners car, the whole point is just to get them started and take things from there.

[terry.sc]

PLEASE, TC is a very poor example for this. Not when the rules state that cars should be a reasonable replica of a road going vehicle yet homologated bodies incude many that are openly not even trying to be a model of a real car. This is why so many people regard touring as boring, same thing happened to Pro-10, almost killed 1/12th... It shouldn't happen to GT12 too. While the concept may be ok on paper, running heat after heat of Ascaris gets old. Reminds me of the Dodge Stratus.. and now the Mazda 6. I might slap a huge wing on the back and a carbon splitter and run mine as a Ford Escort GT.

No class has ever died out or been avoided because the body wasn't scale. Pro10 did not die out because of the bodies used, nor did 1/12th numbers drop because of the non scale bodies. If you believe that why did 1/12th pick up again with even less scale bodies. The people who say touring cars are boring would still see it as boring if they had accurate scale bodies as they would then be running with slower motors.

There is a reason there were heat after heat of Stratus and Mazda 6, those were the bodies that worked best. Look at WorldGT, there is a body list of around 20 bodies of various makes, yet everyone uses the Protoform Sophia because that handles the best. That's why you see everyone running an Ascari.

If you want to open the body rules at national level then do what everyone else does and put in a proposal for the AGM, complaining about it on forums isn't going to change the rules. If the majority of racers vote for an open rule then you can run what you want, although it's highly likely you would then end up with a class of GT racers being full of Mazdaspeeds.

[terry.sc]

Mark, we do disagree, I have stated my opinions so we can leave it at that. This is something we do agree on!

My workings come from this:
1S and 2S cars lap a track at a similar pace. They therefore are producing similar power levels. 1S car does so at half the supply voltage, so must draw about twice the current to achieve this. Resistive losses scale as the square of the current, this is where the extra heat comes from. Your 45A speedo will not restrict the current flow to 45A. It might just overheat if the continuous draw exceeds this value though. Instantaneous spikes of somewhat over 100A are very likely. Modern cells can take this, but of course the 1S system NEEDS to be heavily loaded up (geared) to get any performance out of it so it isn't doing the battery any favours. In an era where people are so conscious of battery safety, this appears to be a strange move.If 1S/13.5T is as marginal as you are implying, how come 1/12th seem to manage fine running 4.5T motors on 1S for 8 minute races and the bigger and heavier WorldGT cars are happily running 1S/10.5T. I don't see 1/12th or WGT racers regularly replacing their batteries.

I use Loong-Max 2300 2S batteries in a solid machined case that I manufacture and sell. So, for all the protestations about needing to have a set of BRCA rules to follow for 2S, you are then using a soft cased micro pack that you would only be allowed to run at a BRCA micro class meeting. If there was a 2S GT12 class at the nationals you would have to run a BRCA legal hard cased pack.

[RogerM]

Am I missing something here? Surely the simple way to find out what you need to run at your local club is to go down there and ask them what they run. Why are you making a 100 mile round trip to avoid them because you don't know what rules they run to? The BRCA rules might have no bearing on what they run, the only way to find out what classes they run is to go and ask them.

The BRCA rules for sanctioned national meetings have always been for 1S 13.5. The rules have also always stated the 21.5T appendix was there as a framework for clubs if they want to run 2S.

You are missing the point a little yes. EVERYBODY I have spoken to at that club has said they believe that 2s is the superior set up, those who do the bigger events told me that they had to fit 1s kit for those events.

I spoke to the next nearest club & they told me they only ran 1s.

I currently have all the gear to run 2s other than the motor, to put a 1s setup in (remember it would have to be a particular brand in my case) would be prohibitively expensive so puts me off the class.

I believe that to be true for most people who want to run GT12 as a 2nd class, unlessof ccourse their first class was 1/12th.

[TrevCoult]

Terry, I wish I could "like" all of your posts as you are almost the only person who is talking any sense here! You are talking about what would be best for the class overall, for nationals and for clubs. Most others are talking about what would be best for themselves individually either because of the equipment they use or something they sell.

GT12 has taken off as a 1S national class. It has taken off mainly as a 1S club class too country wide. There are some regions that for various reasons run mainly 2S. There is nothing wrong with any of that. If clubs are changing from 2S to 1S that is up to them, not the BRCA. If a club wants to remain running 2S it can, there is nothing stopping it. All it has to do is take the existing 2S rules and make them their own.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.
:cry::cry:

[Dave Dodd]

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.
:cry::cry:

i read the the rules when they 1st come out because i wanted this to be a new class at our club (actually i wanted a SSS to race with the mini's) and I seen straight away the point in the rules where it says 2s is only a guide for clubs not national events.
this was discussed with other members over the summer (off road only during summer) and majority of us went 1s route as it ment we could enter a national if we so wished..

so its been in the rules since they were 1st published....

many clubs only use the brca as a guide, we (wbmcc) do not enforce brca legal electrics, we only ask that lipo's be hard cased, this helps beginners come and race with whatever they have..

[TrevCoult]

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.
:cry::cry:

2S has NEVER been permitted at a GT12 national. They have always been 1S 13.5 only. It was only added to the rules for clubs to use as some clubs were already running 2S.

It has been proposed that the 2S rules be moved to an appendix to the main national rules rather than remove them altogether. This seems to be an acceptable compromise for those clubs running 2S that still wish to follow BRCA rules, and also clarifies that nationals are 1S only.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

2S has NEVER been permitted at a GT12 national. They have always been 1S 13.5 only. It was only added to the rules for clubs to use as some clubs were already running 2S.

It has been proposed that the 2S rules be moved to an appendix to the main national rules rather than remove them altogether. This seems to be an acceptable compromise for those clubs running 2S that still wish to follow BRCA rules, and also clarifies that nationals are 1S only.

Trev

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572 (http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572).

[Dave Dodd]

entry for a gt12 National:

You have selected to enter a round of the BRCA GT12 National Championship 2012/13.
Class: GT12
The meeting is to be held at Stafford Model Car Club on the 16th March 2013.
The Championship consists of 6 rounds on the Saturday of 1/12th Scale Nationals, with 4 to count.
The new GT12 construction rules will apply.
At this event GT12.1 and GT12.2 classes will run together although a note will be made of each cars construction for future reference re championships and numbers...
At least 20 places are available. In the event of less than 70 1/12th scale drivers attending, extra spaces will be available.
No driver can run in GT12 and 1/12th at the same event.

Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[TrevCoult]

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572 (http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572).

Please get YOUR facts right. Look at section 7 of the rules. They specify which parts of the rules apply for the GT12.1 and GT12.2 classes of racing, which are those raced at nationals. None of the 2S rules are included.

I DO know the rules, I've talked to the person who wrote them about them often enough! My son has also competed at every national this season in GT12, I've had to make sure I know the rules.

Trev

[RCMadShane]

At last .. Thanks TrevCoult.. for this...

I have been asking for bloody ages where in the rules it stated this and I have had no answers .. I did say I had looked through the rules and could not see where it was stated that this was a Club only rule… but as it stands really the 21.5T is just classless.

I am sorry to get so stressed over this but you must understand that I know at least 20 people who have gone out and bought what is decreed as the wrong thing and for them to enter a national event will have to go out and buy again… For the most I don’t think they will not everyone has the spare cash.. so please understand this anger is directed at the Rule book not individuals and our current economic climate

I will now go back to our Committee and inform them of the situation but for the poor 20+ people who have taken the wrong path… well what can I say… It is what it is

[TrevCoult]

At last .. Thanks TrevCoult.. for this...

I have been asking for bloody ages where in the rules it stated this and I have had no answers .. I did say I had looked through the rules and could not see where it was stated that this was a Club only rule… but as it stands really the 21.5T is just classless.

I am sorry to get so stressed over this but you must understand that I know at least 20 people who have gone out and bought what is decreed as the wrong thing and for them to enter a national event will have to go out and buy again… For the most I don’t think they will not everyone has the spare cash.. so please understand this anger is directed at the Rule book not individuals and our current economic climate

I will now go back to our Committee and inform them of the situation but for the poor 20+ people who have taken the wrong path… well what can I say… It is what it is

No problem. It is known that the rules in their current form are not the easiest to read which is why the 2S rules were initially going to be removed, being effectively unused for nationals. As some clubs still want to run 2S though and would like the rules to stay they will almost certainly now be moved to an appendix.

This does in reality only effect anyone who wants to run at a national. Clubs can still run to whatever rules they want and if the majority of their members want to run 2S there is nothing to stop a club from letting them except their own club rules.

This is a new class at national level, it always takes a couple of years for things to settle down.

Trev

[mark christopher]

i really do not see what you need to be told, i have already answered and proven you to be incorrect, myself and trev both have competed at nationals, please re read my post 57 and you need to get youre facts correct, 2s has NEVER been a national class

Sorry if I am being rude here but Get your facts right!!
This is the current rules listed on the BRCA 12 section website.. it clearly states 21.5T and has no mention of CLUB ONLY!!!
http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572 (http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572).
, i told you to read the entry form where there is a line which i have made bold for you and section 7 of the rules




I think not... Please show me where in the Rules (Link below) that it states that 21.5 is for club only??

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=sections/subsections/pages/gt12-rules/13572


exactly its not clear as the "club guide lines" are in the rules as an a apendix.

21.5 is NOT a national class

try reading the entry form, i have posted this before

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=content/brca-gt12-saturday-r6-tonbridge/17800


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[mark christopher]

Listen I do understand your points on the 1s v 2s argument but I think you may have missed where I am coming from..
1. Clubs need to follow the BRCA rules if we do not then we find that people have to spend more money to run in a national..
2. The BRCA stipulated that the 2s option was permitted so now many clubs have adopted this option.
3. By deleting the 2s option removes all club drivers from being able to enter a national
Is this really in the best interest of the sport.
:cry::cry:


it would seem not, we have repeatedly told you that 2s is not a national class.. its club rules only, clubs follow at thier own choice, i have said if the 2s was removed or had never been there then folk like you would not have got so confussed

[RCMadShane]

i really do not see what you need to be told, i have already answered and proven you to be incorrect, myself and trev both have competed at nationals, please re read my post 57 and you need to get youre facts correct, 2s has NEVER been a national class


, i told you to read the entry form where there is a line which i have made bold for you and section 7 of the rules




exactly its not clear as the "club guide lines" are in the rules as an a apendix.

21.5 is NOT a national class

try reading the entry form, i have posted this before

http://www.brca.org/index.php?q=content/brca-gt12-saturday-r6-tonbridge/17800


Class Rules
13.5T brushless motors as per Electric Board list.powered by a 1S LiPo cell on Electric Board list. Approved ESC in “blinky” mode as per Electric Board list
Or
G2 brushed motor powered by 4 cell NiMh

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level


Mark you kept publishing an Entry list... I disregarded this as it is not the rules it was an entry... but yes correct I did miss your snippet referencing section 7 of the rules which Trev finally clarified for me so now we all can see clearly where we are.

It’s a shame it took so long going around in circles but I think we got there in the end.

[mark christopher]

Mark you kept publishing an Entry list... I disregarded this as it is not the rules it was an entry... but yes correct I did miss your snippet referencing section 7 of the rules which Trev finally clarified for me so now we all can see clearly where we are.

It’s a shame it took so long going around in circles but I think we got there in the end.


ok fair enough but this bit is prety clear

NB 21.5/2S combination is NOT allowed at National level

[RCMadShane]

it would seem not, we have repeatedly told you that 2s is not a national class.. its club rules only, clubs follow at thier own choice, i have said if the 2s was removed or had never been there then folk like you would not have got so confussed


Yes Mark...... Shame you had not picked up that we had miss read Section 7 of the Rules. Don’t worry Trev sorted it out

Please remember it’s the rules we were trying to follow not an individual entry list.

[LongRat]

Glad you guys have wrapped this up, so I can go back to my illegal batteries and pushing my products for sale. That's really been my agenda the whole time - honest.

[mark christopher]

Yes Mark...... Shame you had not picked up that we had miss read Section 7 of the Rules. Don’t worry Trev sorted it out

Please remember it’s the rules we were trying to follow not an individual entry list.


lol i pointed you to rule 7, i told you you had miss read the rules, not much more i could do...

[SlowOne]

OK kiddies, get the teddies back in the pram!! :D :D

I think this just goes to show that Roger has a point, and that whatever is or is not agreed at the EGM next year, I do have to make things clearer for everyone.

The GT12 Rules are laid out the same way as the 12th Rules and in accordance with the BRCA Constitution. When voting for Rule changes, all Construction rule changes require a 2/3rds majority of those voting to be passed. Procedural, organisational, class and racing rules only require a simple majority of those voting.

In order for 21.5/2S to be included as a National class it must be a Construction Rule. It was voted in as a Construction rule. We then voted on whether it should be a class for Nationals and that failed. The idea was that since low-cost speedos did not have a 1S capability, and fitting receiver packs or boosters was an additional complication for new drivers, 2S/21.5 would be a good option for new drivers so it was left there to help clubs and meeting organisers.

Since then, two things have happened. 1S/13.5 has become the majority choice in clubs who have taken up GT12 - more clubs race this combo than 2S/21.5 - and there have been at least two good, low-cost 1S compatible speedos made available. Since we cannot make equivalence between 1S and 2S cars (been there, done that in GT10 - it doesn't work!) we have reached the point we are now.

The desire for the BRCA to set something up for clubs to use is quite evident, so that is what we will do. If we do it in Appendix form it allows us to respond faster to updates from clubs on which motors/cells are being used and are fixed timing/hard-cased. If we (I!) keep it up to date it is of more value to racers and club committees.

I hope that explains it better. Contacting me isn't the exclusive preserve of Trev and Mark, anyone can. Clicking the 'Send a message' tab on my profile usually gets that job done, or contacting me through the BRCA website. HTH :)

[RogerM]

Right, looks like I will go the 1s route, even though a bit pricey for me.

The open question is will I end up having to move over to let the 2s boys past at club? Guess time will tell!!

I think the way you have the rules written currently ARE ambiguous and need some attention. Sure you will sort it out though.

Now to get hold of the kit I need .... any problem running a Futaba 9550 servo from an Orion 1s ESC or will I need a booster? :)

[Dave Dodd]

Right, looks like I will go the 1s route, even though a bit pricey for me.

The open question is will I end up having to move over to let the 2s boys past at club? Guess time will tell!!

I think the way you have the rules written currently ARE ambiguous and need some attention. Sure you will sort it out though.

Now to get hold of the kit I need .... any problem running a Futaba 9550 servo from an Orion 1s ESC or will I need a booster? :)


I dont think you will have to move over but it would be down to the track design, tight and twisty and they cant open them up ;)

[f888fhw]

I dont think you will have to move over but it would be down to the track design, tight and twisty and they cant open them up ;)

I run / ran 2s, (in the process of changing now)

In my opinion the car had a little more punch out of the corners than the 1s. This is not a good thing as you can not carry the speed thru the corners as it would push. The top end was the same.

So the cars are faster at diff parts of the track, but all in the lap times are very close to each other.

[SlowOne]

Right, looks like I will go the 1s route, even though a bit pricey for me.

The open question is will I end up having to move over to let the 2s boys past at club? Guess time will tell!!

I think the way you have the rules written currently ARE ambiguous and need some attention. Sure you will sort it out though.

Now to get hold of the kit I need .... any problem running a Futaba 9550 servo from an Orion 1s ESC or will I need a booster? :)Roger, you should be fine with any of the current 1S ESCs. Futaba make excellent servos and they are reliable and economic with the amps. Also, the load from those two skinny little front tyres (says the 12th guy - :lol: ) is low so current draw will be lower than a TC or buggy.

I see lots of cars with TC servos running on 1S speedos with no problems (and none yet with a problem), so I'd give your choice the thumbs up! HTH :)

[russmini]

Well, a lot of people do seem to get themselves in a muddle and lose it a little when it comes to whats what and what they need to run for what etc.

I myself run a 2S Speedo, on a 1S LiPo without a booster and it runs fine. I use a KO PDS2413 Servo, (the only servo in fact that i run in any of my cars, i now have four of them :)), HB/HPI 13.5 Motor and at Club, Turnigy 5600 LiPo's (These are Not legal at Nationals though), at Nationals, Speed Power 6200. Oh and Spekky Micro SR3500 rx.

Never had a problem with punch, speed etc etc.

2S i would say is not really quicker, unless on a huge open track, which don't really exsist anyway... So just go 1S - 13.5

Oh and apart from the rx and servo, everything else, inc car, shell and 2 LiPo's cost me £150 second hand, bargain if you ask me :D

[SlowOne]

Full details of your speedo make and type, set-up and photographs of your chassis, please. If you've found a way to run a 2S-only speedo on a 1S pack then you will make a huge number of people very happy! Thanks.

[russmini]

Pete,

It's a HW Justock - http://www.hobbywing.com/product_show.asp?id=250

Works fine on 1S with no booster :)

The only 'trouble' i've experianced is on track designs that have really sharp, sudden switch backs and more than one very close together. You can sometimes get a 'judder'. I fitted a Cap and it sorted that problem out. Just helped it get back out from dead stops.

[mark christopher]

Full details of your speedo make and type, set-up and photographs of your chassis, please. If you've found a way to run a 2S-only speedo on a 1S pack then you will make a huge number of people very happy! Thanks.
pete russimi is russ who sat opposite me at chesterfield ;)

[SlowOne]

Complete set up please Russ. Need to know what receiver and servo you are running, as well as the cell you use.

There is a post in another thread claiming that someone can run 1S cells into 2S speedos with no receiver pack or booster. My concern is that people think you can do this with anything and you can't. Many receivers require a minimum of 5V to operate, and many servos will be so slow that drivers will not be able to control the car effectively.

Your complete set up is important because if that does work, it is something you should recommend to others, and can be compared to the set-up of the the guy in the other thread. I would be very unhappy with the problem you had in tight corners, but others might be able to live with that.

[russmini]

Hobbywing Justock Speedo
Spektrum SR3500 receiver
KO PDS2413 Servo
HB/HPI 13.5 Motor
Turnigy 5600mah and Speed Power 6200mah 1S LiPo's (depending on club race or national)

Complete setup.

[Dave Dodd]

i know the dualsky 550 esc works on 1s as a guy at our club runs one will check tonight if he is there, to see what the rest of his setup is.

There is probably quite a few esc's that work fine on 1s but just dont advertise that they do..

[SlowOne]

Russ, if you are at Tamworth I'll pop across and take a look. I never got this to work for me. Spektrum minimum voltage is 3.5v, and KO servos is 4.8v. Hobbywing say the minimum voltage is 4.8v. If there are people out there getting this to work we need to know which combos do the job so we can pass the information along.

My caution to anyone wanting to try this is that it has NEVER worked in 12th scale, and all drivers either use a booster or a receiver pack. Please don't assume this may work with any combination. Nonetheless, we can all share information and help each other, so let's suss out what works and what doesn't.

[russmini]

Pete,

No probs, i'll be there all weekend.

Also, just to clarify, the Legal LiPo's are Thunder Power, not Speed Power in case anyone was wondering what the hell i was on about... :blush:

Oh and i have to use a MRT bug, as the AMB only works from 4.0 Volts, so a non goer immediately. Gotta love the boys at MRT :D

[SlowOne]

I took a gander at Russ' set up. It is exactly as described and it seems to work just fine. I can only assume that since his cell has such a large capacity it does not drop below 4v and that's how he gets away with it. Thanks for you time, Russ.

You try this at your own risk. If you do try it, make sure your receiver is rated down to 3.5v, and that you use a high-quality, low power servo from either KO or Futaba. Anything from Savox, or any of the high-power servos from TC or 10th Off-Road will likely render this set-up unable to cope and shut everything down. It almost certainly won't work with one of the Sport packs below 4000mAh as the cell voltage will be pulled too low. HTH :)

[russmini]

Just to add as well, using the Turnigy Nano-Tech 5600mah LiPo's we tested an 8 minute final once, just to see how things coped. All was fine :)

[Dave Dodd]

Had a word with the chap running the dualsky 550 esc and he said he just turned the lipo cut off off and put it into stock blinky mode and works A ok.

I have since tried this with my dualsky 850 whilst still in my 2wd buggy and works fine even powering the high torque savox servo and 8.5 bl in the buggy from 1s, once ive found a setting that works i will post it up. :)

[mark christopher]

by putting it in stock /blinky do you mean just putting the speedo to zero on timing etc, not found a blinky programe for mine

[danharding]

For the guys that are interested in 2S esc setups here's mine. Only run the one club meeting so far (last night) 2 x 5min qualifiers and 1 x 6min final, it ran faultlessly all night and came off barely warm each time.

ESC = Dualsky XC550TF-MJ in profile 1 (Default Sportsman) (Auto Cell set to 0 = Off)
Motor = Speedpassion 13.5V3 (as it came out of the box)
Servo = KO PDS-2413ICS
Receiver = FrSky TR4 (Futaba FSSST compatible)
LiPo = Turnigy A-Spec 6000mAh

[mark christopher]

For the guys that are interested in 2S esc setups here's mine. Only run the one club meeting so far (last night) 2 x 5min qualifiers and 1 x 6min final, it ran faultlessly all night and came off barely warm each time.

ESC = Dualsky XC550TF-MJ in profile 1 (Default Sportsman) (Auto Cell set to 0 = Off)
Motor = Speedpassion 13.5V3 (as it came out of the box)
Servo = KO PDS-2413ICS
Receiver = FrSky TR4 (Futaba FSSST compatible)
LiPo = Turnigy A-Spec 6000mAh

You will have no issues on 2s its 1s were wanting to build info and sets ups off

[terry.sc]

You will have no issues on 2s its 1s were wanting to build info and sets ups off
The Turnigy A-Spec 6000mah is 1S so it is a 1S setup using a 2S only rated ESC.:p

[danharding]

The Turnigy A-Spec 6000mah is 1S so it is a 1S setup using a 2S only rated ESC.

Correct. :)

[mark christopher]

The Turnigy A-Spec 6000mah is 1S so it is a 1S setup using a 2S only rated ESC.:p

Correct. :)

Then the poster should put 1s in his thread, not 2s as has been done to prevent confusion, as not all know the specs of batteries.:thumbdown:


For the guys that are interested in 2S esc setups here's mine. Only run the one club meeting so far (last night) 2 x 5min qualifiers and 1 x 6min final, it ran faultlessly all night and came off barely warm each time.

ESC = Dualsky XC550TF-MJ in profile 1 (Default Sportsman) (Auto Cell set to 0 = Off)
Motor = Speedpassion 13.5V3 (as it came out of the box)
Servo = KO PDS-2413ICS
Receiver = FrSky TR4 (Futaba FSSST compatible)
LiPo = Turnigy A-Spec 6000mAh

[Dave Dodd]

by putting it in stock /blinky do you mean just putting the speedo to zero on timing etc, not found a blinky programe for mine

yeah zero timing with lipo cut off turned off..

[Robbiejuk]

by putting it in stock /blinky do you mean just putting the speedo to zero on timing etc, not found a blinky programe for mine

If you change it to the sportman firmware (which come pre-installed on the 550mj) it is in Blinky mode. Even blinks on the speedo.

[VW-Powah]

LOL... you are all talking jibberjabber....

In Belgium the GT12 class is just called "Mardave/Supastox unlimited"
It's just intended as a fun class for the winter as we are all buggy drivers. Just use your summer ESC - batteries or whatever you can find in your box. Some drive 1S, others 2S (hail to the Shorty) ESC and engine Free.... 6.5T, 8.5T, 13.5T, 21.5T ??? or whatever you want to use.....

The qualifiers will tell in what final you'll be in :)

[mark christopher]

this is a brca uk national class over here

[Jonathon555]

The only thing i would like to see is more manufacturers offering chassis for gt12

It would be nice to have more choice

Fia gt series has more than 2 manufacturers