Look what I did today :D

[Richard Lowe]

I got bored today, so I thought I'd jump on the bandwagon and find a use for my old IRS TC3 chassis...

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6725/b4cmoverallvh0.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/174/b4cmtoplz2.jpg

Sorry for the appalling camera phone pictures.


Not bad for an afternoon with the dremel :)
Now it's only a proof of concept so there are, 'issues'. I fully expect it will snap in half if I land it too hard as I've had to take so much off the chassis at the back, those kind of issues :D

I've tried to keep all the heavy stuff as close togeather as possible and the weight distribution front to back is almost exactly the same as a standard car. If anything it's a bit heavier at the back than normal.
The gearbox and rear suspention are all un-altered, and a standard gear cover + bodyshell fit too. The wishbones are mounted to a carbon fibre T-plate with modified BJ4 suspention mounts, and by making the rear shock tower in two parts I can use a standard BJ4 rear shock tower too.

Just need a meeting to run it at now :rolleyes:

[jimmy]

awesome start there rich! I guess the losi is an easier car to start somethign like this since you have the hinge blocks that can mount onto a flat plate carbon chassis if you go that way. more more:D

[Richard Lowe]

This is just a cheap way of testing the layout before I get a carbon chassis made up, and I'm fed up of waiting to get hold of a GT2 front end :rolleyes:

I origonally got the Losi with the intention of turning the gearbox round as the B4 looked too hard to do. Now I've got a CR I ended up doing a B4 instead :p

[DCM]

Right, thats it, I am going to do mine mock-up this week.... turn this totaly on its head I think.

[Northy]

Any better pics Rich? Where and when are you going to run it?

G

[Richard Lowe]

I'll fire up the D70 tomorrow G, what do you want to see?

I'm going to run it whenever I can throughout the winter.

[PaulRotheram]

pics of how and where the rear end is mounted would be nice.. and the shock tower peices. :)

[elvo]

I like!

[BenG]

dude, how did you reverse the gear box? Got any pics of how you did it?:confused:

[_sleigh_]

It ain't reversed

[Richard Lowe]

For the moment I just turned the gearbox 180 degrees, if the layout works well I'll look into flipping the layshaft over and having the motor spin the normal way.

[Chris Doughty]

good skills Richard!

looks a bit long though?

[BenG]

hmmm, I think I am gonna try this with my B4 soon. I am also gonna mod the chassis, and a new bodyshell and wing made;)

[Richard Lowe]

It's deceptive, the rear wishbones are now swept forward and the shocks/tower are on the other side, so there's a big gap where all that lot would be. I don't have another built up B4 to compare it with but it's more or less the same wheelbase as a CR.

[BenG]

got any more pics matey? This looks very swish, not a bad afternoon's work LOL

[Richard Lowe]

Here's some better pictures, be gentle :p

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9063/overallsq0.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6408/chassismo0.jpg
I went a bit mad with the side of the chassis here, I could have left more on the vertical part of the tub and still had clearance for the motor.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3117/spurmz1.jpg
A bit more chassis left here.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/866/tplateoa6.jpg
T-plate, the wishbones are as low as possible, level with the bottom of the chassis at the back.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3278/wheelbasedl7.jpg
Lined up against a standard B4 (bottom), both chassis are level with each other. The mid car (top) is actually slightly shorter.


There's a lot of tidying up to do, especially stuff like how the gearbox ties into the top deck and the rear shock tower mount. The cut down u-brace for the rear toplinks will be carbon fibre eventually, and I'd like to mount the gearbox lower into the t-plate too.

If it works well I'm going to make a full double deck chassis using the GT2 truck front end, there will also be enough room for the radio gear on the chassis. As it is currently with the bracing ribs of the chassis I think I'm going to have to dump either the speedo or reciever on the top deck.

[BenG]

dued that is way cool. I am thinking about modding my B$. I have decided to mould an insert for where the layshaft normally goes out of the tranny box, and cut a hole in the other side, switching the slipper round, so it will work as norm.

May I ask, where did you get all those blue poles? and carbon fibre?

Thanks

BEn

[Richard Lowe]

The T-plate, lower rear shock tower and small piece that links the gearbox to the topdeck were an IRS TC3 chassis, the top deck was a B4 FT battery strap.
The blue spacers are from the IRS chassis (the thick ones) and an old BJ4 http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4407/smashud5.gif

[xx4-nutter]

that looks bloody great u recon u could be faster with it ?, because at the castle howard earlier this year u were flying with ur ft b4 in the final and won even though u had a 2 minuite time handy cap right?

cheers garry;)

[elvo]

You don't need to mod the tranny to make the motor spin the normal way. the lads who tested this, and claim that running the motor in reverse is 'not quite the same' were using V2 motors. V2 endbells are not symmetrical..... if you flip the endbell 180°, the timing is off by a couple of degrees. Hence the difference.

You don't need a GT2 front end either. The 2WD durango has a bent piece of metal (25°). Like the B3, in fact. Works fine.

Good thinkin' to use the BJ4 toe in blocks. Let us know how it handles! Can't be bad, really. the weight is right where it should be, and a little more aft than on the X-6.

[Chris Doughty]

Moulded carbon tub with the kick-up included in it would be dialled!

[BenG]

you sure about turning the timing 180 degrees? If so, that would make my mod a heck of a lot easier, as I was planning on slightly modding the gear box. I think to do the mod properly I may still mod the tranny anyway, as it will make installing motors easier in the long run. I am thinking about making a skinny chassis, can I use my B4 chassis? And just cut off sides, and re-enforce it?

Thanks

Ben

[Cooper]

I am thinking about making a skinny chassis, can I use my B4 chassis? And just cut off sides, and re-enforce it?


yeah but why would you do that? it's the ideal place to mount electronics low and it would give the car alot more flex around the axis in the lenght (let's call it X-axis) In the attachment you can see how Elvo and me reinforced our Saddle pack B4 prototype.

[BenG]

right, that looks good. I may do something like that, or consider taping them in;)

[Richard Lowe]

You'd be relying on the bracing that normally goes either side of the cells for strength, but it wouldn't be there :p

I don't see any advantage to having a super skinny chassis like the Durango, we don't have issues with the sides grounding anyway on the B4 as the chassis curves up at the sides :confused:

[DCM]

Cooper, I bet that still twists though, as the two carbon braces aren't tied to each other, though about doing a one peice topdeck??

TYRC, ther is no advantage, like Richard said, in chopping off the sides, the only way to go with that idea, to a narrow double deck carbon chassis....

[Cooper]

DCM: yeah but we don't want to waste expensive carbon for that :D

first test is to see if the concept works and can always be refined later, the braces used here are chopped carbon Losi baterry braces (recycling saves the planet!)

[elvo]

99% sure, yes. The brushes are not 90° to the screws.

A narrow chassis looks cool, but that's about it. If the sides are raised like on the B4, and you put the heavy stuff in the middle, that'll be fine.

you sure about turning the timing 180 degrees? can I use my B4 chassis? And just cut off sides, and re-enforce it?

[BenG]

well, I think I may have to go down the skinny carbon fibre chassis:D

[BenG]

is it possible to cut carbon fibre with a jig saw?

[Richard Lowe]

It's possible but you'll need a reasonably fine blade, one designed for aluminium would probably work. Be careful :o

[BenG]

yeah with all the dust and shards LOL. I think a C.F. chassis will be a future devlopment.

[DCM]

is it possible to cut carbon fibre with a jig saw?

A fret saw and a vacumn cleaner would be the easiest and cleanest way, just wear latex gloves, long sleeve top and a dust mask.

[elvo]

is it possible to cut carbon fibre with a jig saw?


Yes. Expect to change the blade every 10mm you cut.

fybre-lite would be the sensible option.....

[BenG]

whats a fret saw Steve?

[Cooper]

dremel ?

[DCM]

googles great.... http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?Referrer=IndexSite&PID=138450

A jigsaw is a bit like taking tyles off a wall with a jackhammer, not exactly accurate and overkill. The fretsaw is far more accurate, and depending on the blade, can go around tight curves to. An essential item if you do lots of work.

[elvo]

can go around tight curves to. An essential item if you do lots of work.


I like to go around tight curves.... :D

[DCM]

me too, but the only chance I got at the moment, is doing bodyshells, lol

[elvo]

( o )( o )

[BenG]

right you dirty buggers LOL, will a fret saw require any super blades?

[adam lancia]

hi richard, any chance of getting a few pics of how you mounted the rear shock tower and what part syou were able to purchase and what you had to make? i'm really interested in trying this out myself. thanks a lot! really cool project, have you driven it yet? how far off is the setup from the standard chassis? thanks again!

adam

[elvo]

Hey Rich,
how does it drive?

[BenG]

got any more pics Rich?

[Richard Lowe]

I only got chance to put a couple of packs though it before I had a bod moment and broke a wishbone, I didn't bring a spare (doh!) so ended up running the CR for the rest of the night.

From what I could gather the turn-in felt very positive, but I had quite a bit of understeer. It's looking like I'm going to have to cut a hole in the t-plate for the gearbox to drop down into so I can lower the inner camberlink ballstud. The back end was colapsing under acceleration almost to the point of lifting the inside front wheel, so obviously there isn't enough roll stiffness at the back as it is.

One disadvantage I've found of running the gearbox the wrong way is it loosens your slipper off through each run :p

[BenG]

oh, How did you sort out your layshaft matey? Did you reverse it?

I think I may just make a carbon fibre chasis, shock towers and and play with the layout, but leave the tranny

[jimmy]

Rich, would be be possible to stick another nut on the layshaft to stop it loosening off ?

[Chris Doughty]

or if you can get a trust washer on before the nut, that would sort it!

[jimmy]

genius

[elvo]

...so I can lower the inner camberlink ballstud. The back end was colapsing under acceleration almost to the point of lifting the inside front wheel, so obviously there isn't enough roll stiffness at the back as it is.

One disadvantage I've found of running the gearbox the wrong way is it loosens your slipper off through each run :p


Losi 'short neck' ball studs allow you to lower the stud a mm or so. I guess you'd need more than that.

2 nuts! 1 nut is not enough! :D (on the slipper shaft)

You did reverse the diff, right? The screw has to remain on the .. .ermmm... *think think* right hand side!

[elvo]

or if you can get a trust washer on before the nut, that would sort it!

No it wouldn't. Think about it for a second....

the nut loosens because of it's own weight, not because of a rotational force from the slipper plate or spring or something.

[Richard Lowe]

I think I'm going to try 2 nuts :o to start with, it's impressive though how the tiny nyloc nut backs itself off purely through it's inertia. I'm going to have to do a Mk2 version with lower and reversed gearbox.

Ben, are you going to Batley this Sunday? If you are could you sort me out with one of those little moulded pieces you made to reverse the gearbox on you car please?

Elvo, the lowered ballstuds won't be enough I don't think, I'm talking about 3-4mm to bring it back to the same height relative to the wishbone as the B4 :o

[BenG]

Ben, are you going to Batley this Sunday? If you are could you sort me out with one of those little moulded pieces you made to reverse the gearbox on you car please?


I will do mate, I only live a few minutes walk LOL. What time is it from and till? Iw ill pop down with me camera, and take some snappies, and I'll bring my modifed B4 for you to look at LOL.

And ofcourse I will sort you owt with one of those spacers, its not technical, but its practical LOL.

PM rich;)

[Cooper]

Richard, you can use the old U-brace it'll give you another 2mm



Elvo (lol)

[Richard Lowe]

It is the old brace ;)

[Northy]

Grind it! :o :D

G

[elvo]

Go to bed, guys!

[Cooper]

Grind it! :o :D

G

yeah but that's only 1mm

[BenG]

Go to bed, guys!

hahahah PMSL;)

[Chris Doughty]

No it wouldn't. Think about it for a second....

the nut loosens because of it's own weight, not because of a rotational force from the slipper plate or spring or something.

Blimey! the spring does not move because only the spur moves/slips and that slips on the pads... (scrap the TW idea - I was thinking of the hydra drive!)

surely it does not back off due to inertia? SURELY not??

if it does.. wow....

Alu Loc-Nut then! :D

[elvo]

surely it does not back off due to inertia? SURELY not??

if it does.. wow....





Of course. What else?
The "engineering" solution to this would be to use left-hand threads, like on the cranks of your bicycle, or the crankshaft of your 1:1 car.
But maybe a high nut with fresh nyloc would do.

[Chris Doughty]

but surely it gets big 'kicks' in both directions, especially in the air

[Richard Lowe]

That might be what does it Chris. If you think about it in a normal car when you accelerate the nut's inertia is trying to loosen it, and when you slam the brakes in the air the shock will want to tighten it.
With the reverse gearbox it's the other way round, the nut wants to tighten under acceleration and the sudden deceleration happening when you correct the car in the air is in the loosening rotation/direction. (I have a feeling that will be grammarated :confused: :p )

[Chris Doughty]

but what about when you gun it in the air, using a normal 'box ?

[Cooper]

I think big nuts will only make the problem worse, a light nut wouldn't have that much inertia like a heavy one and might not have the problem...

[elvo]

but surely it gets big 'kicks' in both directions, especially in the air


The biggest kicks are in the direction of 'tighter' on a normal standard non-reverse-tranny B4 box.

Transmissions get the biggest whacks when landing (full-throttle- off of jumps, and when slamming the brakes.
Any motor, brushed or brushless, can bring a car to a dead stop faster than it can accellerate it to top speed. Same with disc brakes on a 1:1 car. Braking is always faster than accelleration. That's why the 'ideal' line is asymmetrical.

And Coop, I said 'higher' nut (with more nyloc), not bigger nut. YOU are the biggest nut :-O


That being said, why does the diff screw go in from the other side on a B4 compared to a Losi? :confused:

[BenG]

adjust the slipper to how you want it, then put a bit of lock thread on the thread( obviously) ;)

[Chris Doughty]

That being said, why does the diff screw go in from the other side on a B4 compared to a Losi? :confused:


The Losi has a WAY bigger and heavier screw, the AE screw is very 'thin' so less inertia...

[Cooper]

hey nutty Smellvo, check THE directory, added *cough*3D*cough* slipper to the tranny.

[ashleyb4]

Yea ben thats what i was thinking.

A

[Cooper]

http://www.oople.com/rc/photos/batley150906/bigimages/DSC_6577.jpg



broken ?

[jimmy]

lol, more like stripped so he could build his B4 back up. i think you sold the xxxcr today as well richard ? back to the good old b4!! :p:p

[Richard Lowe]

Yup :p

It was pretty poor I'm afraid, it did a couple of things really well but lots of things badly. It was so far off the pace I don't think it was a setup issue, it was just rubbish :rolleyes:

[BenG]

Yup :p

It was pretty poor I'm afraid, it did a couple of things really well but lots of things badly. It was so far off the pace I don't think it was a setup issue, it was just rubbish :rolleyes:

thats a shame Rich, I had a look at the car in person, was very good quality;) I think with my project, I will leave the tranny as norm, and mess with the chassis

[Cockerill]

'It was so far off the pace I don't think it was a setup issue' ...

... but it was quick enough to win :D

[Richard Lowe]

I was talking about my mid-motor thingymebob :p

[Cockerill]

oops :confused:

[Lee]

The thing is i am sure losi and AE will of tried all sorts of weird and wonderful configurations when designing the cars, as richard has said it was off the pace but it was just a project for him and something to try, if it worked great, but the chances of one man outwitting ae and losi is pretty slim.

no offence meant to anyone here, im sure there are some very clever people in this game and projects are great and very interesting to see but if losi or ae thought it would be better this way or that then i am sure we would see different cars, as it is to the untrained eye there would be very little to seperate the cars.

[BenG]

but the chances of one man outwitting ae and losi is pretty slim.



YEah minimum is really 2, as Jconcepts are world champs:D

[Lee]

very good point,;) but the 2wd mid motor idea was about when the cougar 2000 was around and hasnt taken of since (on a big scale)

[BradR]

YEah minimum is really 2, as Jconcepts are world champs:D
Now that's funny!

[Richard Lowe]

Well it looks like I'm going to be developing this further after getting some more running with it recently :)

I lowered the inner ballstud at the rear by turning the u brace upside down and spacing everything differently so the ballstud is now upside down. This made a huge difference to the car, outdoors at least it handles just like a B4 but is a lot more stable and consistent, it jumps better and changes direction quicker.
Mr Whittle ran it at the Teeside NE regional recently and did very well with it. Running in the non-regional class his time in the final would have been good enough to put him second in the regional A, about half a second behind myself and with a faster lap than 'The Bulk' :cool:

The next job is to turn the layshaft round so the motors don't have to be reversed which shouldn't take too much doing and generally make it more reliable. Or I could wait for the S2, but this is more fun :)

[xx4-nutter]

coool ! :D , you got any snaps of it rich ?

Garry D.

[mattym0310]

does this mean you will be racing it insted of your b4 from now on?? and you got any piccys??

[Richard Lowe]

No pics yet, it's top secret :p

Damian's going to run it at Oswestry, after that who knows ;)

[AndyM]

:( gooooo onnnn!!

[PaulRotheram]

No pics yet, it's top secret :p

Damian's going to run it at Oswestry, after that who knows ;)

not the only mid car that will be there then....

[neiloliver]

i hope it can fly then...

[Welshy40]

very good point,;) but the 2wd mid motor idea was about when the cougar 2000 was around and hasnt taken of since (on a big scale)


Hehehe yup. It was actually Fabiix that first thought of it and brought out a kit form, from the cougar design. It wasnt much but the idea started everyone off.

I have to say the associated job that was done by Richard was well designed and cant fault it. Hell it took me ages to finish my designs and it only took you a day - fantastic work.

[LEGEND]

The car truely looks legendary, and should only be driven by the top of the drivers. This i beleive should include the LEGEND himself.:D So any chance of letting the LEGEND have a little go, with this car of yours. I promise i will be gentle,:rolleyes: and that it will still be in one peice at the end. I hope.;) :D

[bigred5765]

The car truely looks legendary, and should only be driven by the top of the drivers. This i beleive should include the LEGEND himself.:D So any chance of letting the LEGEND have a little go, with this car of yours. I promise i will be gentle,:rolleyes: and that it will still be in one peice at the end. I hope.;) :D

Muhaahaaahahahahaha

[xx4-nutter]

:D if youre a leg-end... does that make you a foot or even a toe :eh?: ...


and a foot or a toe cant drive a car, unless youre name is musami lol :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Richard Lowe]

Or even Masami ;)

[Lee]

I think thats his better looking older brother:D

[xx4-nutter]

Or even Masami ;)

ok now me and leg end cant spell lol

[rcracer]

:D if youre a leg-end... does that make you a foot or even a toe :eh?: ...


and a foot or a toe cant drive a car, unless youre name is musami lol :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

the leg-end could be the hip :rolleyes: and leg-end been a single leg it will be then HIP HOP :p

[Chupstar]

pictures?

[LEGEND]

Well has anymore progress been made on this totally top secret car then or has it just been left the same.:)

[LEGEND]

I that as it has just stayed the same then.

[Richard Lowe]

Yeah nothing new, my B4's been going so well recently I can't be bothered doing much with this :p

[LEGEND]

Fair enough. But i would like to have look at it sometime, thats all.:)