lazer id help

[timmy]

Hi guys, can you help me with the two cars below. Car one has an frp chassis, one way on the top shaft, long wing mount. Car two has a carbon chassis, no one way and wing mount on rear shock tower. They've both got different sets of wishbones too. However, top decks, shock mounts, shocks and wheels etc.. are the same on both. What have i got here? Any help greatly appreciated.
cheers
Tim

[DanB4]

I could be wrong but I reckon the 1st in a ZX-R Mk1 and the second is a ZX-R mk2.

The mk1 has a Mid/ZX wing mount fitted and the mk2 has teamline front hub carriers......sorry if I'm stating the obvious!

Dan

[timmy]

Cheers Dan.
I got thrown by the one way clutch in the 1st car. When i referred to Terry's post a couple of months back on the Lazer's evolution it mentioned the one way being fitted in the ZX, and this being replaced in the ZX-R with a slipper.
If they are a mk1 and mk2, would there have been a benefit of retro fitting the one way clutch from the original ZX? I only ask as i'm intending to use one of the cars as a runner and it could affect my decision on which one.

[Welshy40]

One way was on all zx and zxr models, with exception of the sport models.

First cars got zx wishbones on, zx steering knuckle arms, zx wing mount, main chassis is from a zx. I think you have a zx and zxr mk1, the later made from spares and not from a kit as the top decks plastic from the sport model. The zx has had a slipper upgrade and steering plate upgrade, top deck upgrade. Hope that helps.

[timmy]

Thats a big help thanks. The one way on the second car must be broken / faulty as its definately not working. Time to start investigating further and see what i find.

[DanB4]

Welshys opinion more credible!

The one way can be locked by tightening the hex and grub screw...see if that's been done?

[terry.sc]

They are both Mk1 ZX-Rs.

The first one has a ZX wing mount and Schumacher battery straps, but the rest is ZX-R. If it started life as a ZX, then it has been upgraded with ZX-R layshaft, slipper, top deck, shock mounts, steering centre link, front shocks and 2.2" wheels. The ZX and ZX-R used the same chassis. Early suspension parts means it could have started as a ZX, or they were replacement parts for broken later arms with less webbing. The only way to tell if it started as a ZX would be if it still had gear diffs as it is a lot nearer a ZX-R than a ZX.

The only part in the first chassis that is ZX specific is the wing mount, every other part was shared between the ZX and ZX-R with the same part number, any changes were production changes to parts that were used on both chassis. As they have the same part number any broken wishbone or other part could be replaced with either type.

The second chassis is a ZX-R with blue Teamline C-hubs and RW Racing alloy suspension mounts. It also has ZX battery strap posts. The 6 cell slot chassis is not a standard Kyosho part, the chassis should be the same as the first car. While the ZX-R Mk2 had a 6 slot chassis and ZX battery posts, it also had the batteries moved back in the chassis and would require a whole load of other parts to be changed as well. Can't say who manufactured it, the carbon is a different weave to Kyoshos carbon fibre. The top deck on the second one is not the ZX-Sport one, the ZX-Sport top deck has no cutouts in it and a recess in the side to mount the MSC servo, like this one. (http://www.tamiyaclub.com/tc_userimages/7357/img7357_25042007150406_1.jpg)

Cheers Dan.
I got thrown by the one way clutch in the 1st car. When i referred to Terry's post a couple of months back on the Lazer's evolution it mentioned the one way being fitted in the ZX, and this being replaced in the ZX-R with a slipper.
If they are a mk1 and mk2, would there have been a benefit of retro fitting the one way clutch from the original ZX? I only ask as i'm intending to use one of the cars as a runner and it could affect my decision on which one.The original ZX doesn't have a slipper, it has a third ball diff in the spur instead, which for some reason Kyosho designed it so it only worked one way. It meant that if under acceleration the front wheels started spinning it would dump all the power through the spinning front wheels, killing acceleration. Don't even bother trying to retro fit the ZX centre ball diff.

As has been mentioned the front one way is on the opposite end of the layshaft, the long hex nut should have a grub screw through the middle that locks it on to the layshaft. Tightening the nut up would lock up the one way, and of course over time it's not that rare for the one way to bind itself onto the layshaft. Take the nut and alloy washer off the end of the layshaft and if the one way doesn't pull off the layshaft try soaking in WD40 or 3in1 to try and free it.

[isobarik]

I would say 2 zxr mk1

mvh Isobarik

[timmy]

Dan, Isobarik and Terry(especially!) thanks for all the feedback/information.
I'll start stripping the cars back this week and see how all the internals look.

I'm looking to run atleast one of the cars, local club meetings and maybe a few welsh regionals, seams a shame not too really! All those modern cab forward 4wd cars are so samey looking. So my next questions too you all are (a) motor size? i seem to remember reading a thread somewhere stating the car will handle a 10.5 brushless? and (b) are there any upgrades i need to or can make to the car while i've got it in bits - drive train, shock towers etc?
cheers Tim

[Welshy40]

Dan, Isobarik and Terry(especially!) thanks for all the feedback/information.
I'll start stripping the cars back this week and see how all the internals look.

I'm looking to run atleast one of the cars, local club meetings and maybe a few welsh regionals, seams a shame not too really! All those modern cab forward 4wd cars are so samey looking. So my next questions too you all are (a) motor size? i seem to remember reading a thread somewhere stating the car will handle a 10.5 brushless? and (b) are there any upgrades i need to or can make to the car while i've got it in bits - drive train, shock towers etc?
cheers Tim

Welsh regionals, ok now im interested. Still a bit sore about losing the title by one point in the 90's. It can handle a 10.5 but wouldnt recomend any higher unless you use my gearbox design.

Your cars should be fine, personally id use the first car in the pictures, but put the teamline hubs on and rear wing mount from the other car. Slipper should be good.

Dont use WD40 as its the worst thing youll ever use, get GT85 as that will be good to have for cleaning out the bearing of the oneway without getting it worse as the teflon retracts dirt whereas WD40 attracts it (named that way due to 39 attempts to get it pressurised so they could maintain our spitfires in ww2) any help just pm me, more than happy to help someone from my racing grounds.

Shock towers id go for fibrelyte and replace the front one with the semicircular top as that aides you if you roll plus its really strong. Also get the zx straight steering plate as its better and you can get rid of the bump steer. How far do you want to go as the list keeps going. Tub chassis will be available around october (maybe earlier) as well.

[terry.sc]

(a) motor size? i seem to remember reading a thread somewhere stating the car will handle a 10.5 brushless? and (b) are there any upgrades i need to or can make to the car while i've got it in bits - drive train, shock towers etc?
cheers Tim
We used to race them with 10 turn brushed, my ZX-R easily handles a 10.5 and could go lower. Whichever car you use, use the alloy wishbone mounts or in an accident you will break one of the mounts and they are hard to find replacements for. If you use the alloy mounts and have a bigger accident that breaks a wishbone at least they are easier to get hold of.

Replace the front shock mount with one that's braced across the top, any of them from Fibre-Lyte. If it rolls there's a good chance one side of the standard shock mount twist backwards, breaking the shock mount and breaking the mounting lugs off the front gearbox which are virtually impossible to find. A shock mount which is braced across the top distributes the load more evenly and won't break the gearbox.

The Teamline C hubs have a different castor angle than the standard ones. You want to try the two types to see which you prefer as a tuning aid. The extra castor is usually the better option.

As for the steering centre link, changing it to the straight ZX one would not affect bump steer as the link mounting point isn't moved in or out, just forwards and backwards. Again it's a tuning aid, the straight ZX one gives a bigger ackerman angle between the wheels. The difference is the ZX-R one will give more aggressive steering and more steering bite into the corner, the straighter ZX link will be smoother and give you less steering into the corner but more steering under power.

[terry.sc]

Dont use WD40 as its the worst thing youll ever use, get GT85 as that will be good to have for cleaning out the bearing of the oneway without getting it worse as the teflon retracts dirt whereas WD40 attracts it (named that way due to 39 attempts to get it pressurised so they could maintain our spitfires in ww2)
The suggestion of WD40 was something to free up the bearing, not to lubricate it. I wouldn't put any lubricant at all in the one way, anything in there will stop the rollers gripping the layshaft.

BTW WD40 wasn't invented until the 1950s in the US.

[Welshy40]

Terry i disagree with the zx steering plate. A lot of guys have tried it and agreed. Having the steering plate you can raise it by washers or just add the blue steering which i forgot to mention and then no bump steer. With the zx steering ive got more steering in and out of the corners and found the zxr one lacked steering into the corner at speed especially on carpet and i was in the top ten in the country on carpet in the 90's. i do agree with you on more caster as the 5 degree was preferred for outdoors and the 7.5 was better indoors. The best mount that i have never broken is the semi circular handle type mount from fibrelyte and like you said is braced and not only reinforces the front but aides the car so when you roll it helps put the car back on its wheels so quite handy. Looks ugly but yz10s break when they hit this head on )))

Ok i made a cock up on wd40 and think ive got my wires crossed with another item that was used to maintain our spitfires, so apologies for a bad statement. Still water displacement doesnt displace dirt and also displaces grease and after a short time attracts dirt and grit. As i raced in rain in the 90's the issues we had were damaged bearings due to wd40 as it attracts dirt, we then came across gt85 with teflon which retracts dirt. This saved my bearings and a lot of the top racers in the 90s used it.

[timmy]

Thanks again both, so much knowledge, i think i know where i'm going with the build for now. I've got a 10.5 fusion exceed combo i can take out of a short course and drop in the buggy (don't suppose theres a gearng chart with ratio's etc.. hidden deep in these pages anywhere?), I'll order the front shock tower from fibre-lyte tomorrow. Welshy - do you have a part no. for the ZX steering plate?
I've noted both your comments on the pro's and cons of the different steering plates and the front hubs. Best thing for me to do is to get the car running and do some back to back comparisons and see what suits me best.
Body - i'm presuming TBG is the place to go? Could only find a ZXS body & undertray on Kamtec, or would that fit the car?

[Welshy40]

Thanks again both, so much knowledge, i think i know where i'm going with the build for now. I've got a 10.5 fusion exceed combo i can take out of a short course and drop in the buggy (don't suppose theres a gearng chart with ratio's etc.. hidden deep in these pages anywhere?), I'll order the front shock tower from fibre-lyte tomorrow. Welshy - do you have a part no. for the ZX steering plate?
I've noted both your comments on the pro's and cons of the different steering plates and the front hubs. Best thing for me to do is to get the car running and do some back to back comparisons and see what suits me best.
Body - i'm presuming TBG is the place to go? Could only find a ZXS body & undertray on Kamtec, or would that fit the car?

Front mount and brace 1 on the lazer zx section under kyosho on fibre lyte website. That mount i never managed to break and means its strong. Also get a kyosho part number and may be a bit pricey but part number is 39655 as its the blue steering that we all used in 90's. This means no spacing and will stop the bump steer.

Zxs body cones with an undertray and does fit but you may need to buy a B4 servo arms (the things that hold the servo to the chassis) as that gives you the option of pushing it further inwards on the chassis. Otherwise buy the tomcat shell from kamtec and several undertrays from tbg or whoever makes them but they dont last long whereas the kamtec shells and undertray do and are a much better product.

There is a chart in the last 40 pages or so in the zxr thread. I did it so if i didnt post it the ratios are either .6 or wrong. I tend to base my startup ratios from the novak web site and work from there.

[timmy]

Ordered the ZXS shell this morning (better to support the UK manufacturers when you can), i've got an atomic carbon x6 with the B4 arms so i'll borrow those. Just come off the phone to fibrelyte, ordered the shock tower and brace 1 . So whilst i'm awaiting the ultra efficient royal mail to deliver! i'll start going back through the ZXR thread, see what i can find.

[Welshy40]

Page 198 and works on a computer but not on phones. The ratio is spot on and would advise doing as ive stated as the chart has enough pinion gears for you to work with.

[timmy]

As has been mentioned the front one way is on the opposite end of the layshaft, the long hex nut should have a grub screw through the middle that locks it on to the layshaft. Tightening the nut up would lock up the one way, and of course over time it's not that rare for the one way to bind itself onto the layshaft. Take the nut and alloy washer off the end of the layshaft and if the one way doesn't pull off the layshaft try soaking in WD40 or 3in1 to try and free it.

Started stripping the cars back this evening, everything all seems in pretty good condition so far. Haven't started breaking down the rear transmissions yet, however, i did notice that while car 2 has the hex nut and grub screw ( as described above) on the end of the layshaft, car 1 only has a nyloc nut on the end of the shaft.
Has this been done for a reason? or have they just lost the hex nut and grub screw and bodged it with a nyloc nut?

[Welshy40]

Bod job as there is no way it would stay attached.

[timmy]

Ok cheers, is it an LA-5 i need to find for a replacement nut and grub screw?

[Welshy40]

Unsure but should be on the manual. I use a silver threadlocked nut turned the wrong way around does the job perfectly.

[terry.sc]

Started stripping the cars back this evening, everything all seems in pretty good condition so far. Haven't started breaking down the rear transmissions yet, however, i did notice that while car 2 has the hex nut and grub screw ( as described above) on the end of the layshaft, car 1 only has a nyloc nut on the end of the shaft.
Has this been done for a reason? or have they just lost the hex nut and grub screw and bodged it with a nyloc nut?
Fairly standard modification, even did it on my own racing Lazers back in the day as it stays in place where the standard nut will fall off and disappear if it wasn't done up tightly or threadlocked, I got rid of the kit parts for better reliability. Considering how much power went through my touring car converted Lazer there is certainly no reliability concerns with a nyloc nut as mine went through about 6 years of racing every week without coming undone.

The standard grub screw in the nut setup is overcomplicated for what it is. The only advantage of the nut and screw is if you are running with the one way set up so it is free enough to allow the one way to work, but just tight enough to give some drag on the assembly so you get some front wheel braking. Good idea in theory but when you consider this drag to transfer some braking power to the front wheels has to be transferred between the alloy washer and the nut itself, and 1/4 of a turn is enough to go from loose to tight it's never going to happen in the real world. In reality as you are running with the one way either free or tight a normal nyloc nut does exactly the same job and is a lot simpler to adjust.

[terry.sc]

Terry i disagree with the zx steering plate. A lot of guys have tried it and agreed. Having the steering plate you can raise it by washers or just add the blue steering which i forgot to mention and then no bump steer. With the zx steering ive got more steering in and out of the corners and found the zxr one lacked steering into the corner at speed especially on carpet and i was in the top ten in the country on carpet in the 90's.
As I said the forwards/backwards mounting holes between the ZX and ZX-R steering links have got nothing to do with bump steer, as you point out yourself by talking about using washers to adjust bump steer.

With the ZX plate you have smoother, more consistent steering through the corner and that is entirely due to the increased ackermann angle, not because to has no bump steer. The ZX-R one will give a harder, more responsive turn in but less steering coming out under power.
My own preference for my carpet Lazer was for my own steering link which has the mounting points even further forwards than the ZX-R link with the standard uprights, as the tracks I raced on were usually full of low speed hairpins. I needed quick direction changes but extra stability when accelerating hard out of them to suit my driving style. The ZX link can generate more steering but only when running with the Teamline uprights as their extra caster gives you greater camber change on the inside wheel to help it grip through the corner, but it isn't as responsive as the ZX-R one.

I'm sure I can also dig out a box load of trophies from race wins from the 90s as well, but I'd suggest a BTech Automotive Engineering degree and 34 years continuous r/c racing experience in every main electric class would suggest I do have an idea what I'm talking about.


Timmy, if the ZX-R link is as bad as James makes out Kyosho would not have continued to use the same steering geometry right through to the ZX-S Evo.

[Welshy40]

Zxs steering geomatry is pretty much identical to the zx using the blue parts and a slight design change to the plate but the holes are more zx than zxr. I did find i had bumpsteer with the R link hence why it got binned. I understand why it was designed as got the low down before it got released but i found wasnt as good on high grip with mini spikes,micro pins or mini spikes for me and yes i am a very agressive driver in and out of corners and tighter the better. It may be totally different with foams which for most of the places i went to wasnt allowed, but best option to do is try both, make your own mind up.

[timmy]

The cars coming back together nicely, all seems in very good condition. I stayed with the nyloc nut on the layshaft instead of the nut and grub screw for ease and also because if it worked for Terry, it'll do for me.
Still waiting on the bodyshell but the fibrelyte parts turned up saturday. Now, as i spent most of the nineties drinking instead of collecting trophies!! and as it seems like it will suit my driving style based on both your explanations, i'll use the ZX steering plate and teamline hubs to start with and see how i get on with it.
Another question sorry! Servo savers? Do you use them and if so which ones? Im using a savox servo for the steering so would i really need one?
Thanks again for the help

[terry.sc]

For servo savers I have always used Kimbrough in everything. Use a medium size Kimbrough, using one of the corner holes on the arm, with the servo saver mounted on the servo at an angle to keep the connection at the top. It will give you plenty of throw.

[Welshy40]

Yup same as Terry said Kimbrough. I prefer the middle holes on the Kimbro saver, I cut away the rest.

[butty1978]

Wow Lazer ZXR that brings back some fantastic memories for me off racing every weekend when I was a kid fantastic cars loved it hope you have fun with them fella;):thumbsup:;)