EFRA AGM - any feedback?

[Jean-Christophe]

Hi there,

This week-end, the EFRA AGM has taken place in France.

Has anyone some feedback of the discussions on the big points : LiPos legalized? etc etc...

Thanks a lot

JC

PS : I didn t know where to store this thread, feel free to move to the appropriate sectio.

[bbq]

Lipo's are aproved

[Lee]

I heard the food was a disappointment :thumbdown:

[Tral]

I heard the food was a disappointment :thumbdown:

I think you have bad information. Food was very good, much more better than in last year.

Lipo approved, from what i remembe max capacity 5500.

I have all my papers in home.
If you like i can write you tomorrow which proposal passed.

[SHY]

Yes, please keep us posted! :thumbsup:

Any more details on LiPos? From what date? Dimensions? For all classes?

[Northy]

Didn't you go Shy? :confused:

G

[Lee]

Maybe he got all shy :woot:

[SHY]

Elvo once sent me a T-shirt stating "I'm shy but I've got a big d***!" :lol:

No, I'm not in the federation now. Only guys from there can go.

I've been to a couple before when I was in the federation. And once as a "consultant" for the federation.

[elvo]

Elvo once sent me a T-shirt stating "I'm shy but I've got a big d***!" :lol:



:-D Found that shirt in Mexico.

Your Lipo proposal passed. Minutes soon to be posted on the EFRA website.

[Chrislong]

:-D Found that shirt in Mexico.

Your Lipo proposal passed. Minutes soon to be posted on the EFRA website.

Cool,
Can somebody link to the minutes in here once available.

Are those T-shirts still available? Or can Piespeed print some? :thumbsup:

[_sleigh_]

AGM Minutes normally appear here - http://www.efra.ws/agm_page.html

Saying that it looks like 2007 minutes are still to be uploaded :(

[elvo]

http://cgi.ebay.com/I'M-SHY-BUT-I'VE-GOT-A-BIG-D**K~Mexico-(XL)-T-Shirt-_W0QQitemZ120327486096QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2008110 2?IMSfp=TL081102107006r12239

[Tral]

Final race calendar:
10-15.08.2009 EC Spain Bilbao



Proposed rule to read

Appendix 3C 3.2
Existing Rule :
3.2 European Championships: The organizer will propose a 2 types of tyre for the 2WD rear axle and the 4WD rear axle. The manufacturer and full description of the tyres chosen must be given but there remains free choice of compound. The proposed tyre choice will be ratified at the EFRA section AGM prior to the EC and provided always that the chosen tyres are commercially available throughout the EFRA Nations.



Amend to:-
3.2 European Championships: The organizer will propose 1 type of tyre for each of the driven axles for 2WD and 4WD (2WD and 4WD do not have to be the same type of tyre). The manufacturer and full description of the tyres chosen must be given, but there remains free choice of compound. The proposed tyre choice will be ratified at the EFRA section AGM prior to the EC and provided always that the chosen tyres are commercially available throughout the EFRA Nations. The manufacturer(s) of the chosen tyres will be notified which specific tyre has been chosen as soon as the decision is finalised.


Passed 17 and 1 absention






















Appendix 3C 5

Existing Rule :
5. Body shell holes/vents: The front and rear ends of the shell must retain some of the original profile of the two ends of the shell. Front and rear facing areas within the body shell surface which are 'marked' with the intention of removal to form ”air scoops/ vents“ are allowed to be removed. In addition, if no ”marked“ air scoops/vents are designed in the original mould, in the immediate proximity of the motor or ESC, then material may be removed to a maximum of 10 mm in any direction within a maximum square area of developed size 30 mm x 30 mm, in two places only. Windows are not allowed to be removed or include holes, other than for the purpose of the antenna.

Amend to :-
5. Body shell holes/vents: The front and rear ends of the shell must retain some of the original profile of the two ends of the shell. Front and rear facing areas within the body shell surface which are 'marked' with the intention of removal to form ”air scoops/ vents“ are allowed to be removed. If no ”marked“ air scoops/vents are designed in the original mould to assist airflow to the motor or ESC, then material may be removed to a maximum of 10 mm. in any direction within a maximum square area of developed size 30 mm x 30 mm, in two places only. Windows are not allowed to be removed or include holes, other than for the purpose of the antenna.




Passed Unanimously


















THE RULE SHOULD BE AMENDED TO READ (PARTICULAR 1/10 OFFRAOD)
3.3 1/10 Off-Road cars will be driven by a maximum of six cells. EFRA approved Lithium Polymer batteries may be used as an option for this class. See Appendix 10 for specifications.

Proposed by: NMF/RC Norway




Passed Unanimously

[SHY]

Your Lipo proposal passed

Mark, can you read this? :p

[Lee]

Louder Louder !!! :lol:

[dan_kitty]

sp have lipos been approved?

[jim76]

what is the appendix 10 spec?

[mark christopher]

Mark, can you read this? :p
did you rule not state no dimensions?

if so whats an efra aproved pack and whats See Appendix 10 for specifications.

ill say well done when i know what that bit means:lol:

[mac]

The original rule that was proposed (by Norway)had no dimensions but it did have the 5000mah rule so I'm guessing some of this has been changed in appendix 10

[Tral]

In short version:

Lenght 139mm
Width 47mm
Height 23,5mm Additional chassis protrusions are allowed.

The case must have original suppliers label intact, stating the rated voltage and the pack capacity. Maximum capacity is 5,500mah. The Brand name/logo shall be easily readable.

LiPo batteries may be charged to a maximum of 8,40V. Overcharged will not be tolerated.

Any competitor found to have charged LiPo cells above 8,4V will be disqualified from the event.

[SHY]

Minutes: http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/rc/t2.asp?p=34566&x=1&a=237774

[mark christopher]

any different dimensions for saddle packs?

[mark christopher]

any one know what apendix 10 is then?

[mac]

max length saddle end to end 139.0 mm same as stick

Proposed by B.R.C.A Great Britain.

Passed Unaimously

[mark christopher]

max length saddle end to end 139.0 mm same as stick

Proposed by B.R.C.A Great Britain.

Passed Unaimously

oh....................

[SHY]

any one know what apendix 10 is then?

You still haven't read anything have you? :yawn: You lazy ...

That appendix is for the approval process, guidelines as to safety etc.

As for the rule itself both the dimensions resctictions and mAh restrictions are from the BRCA proposal.

The committee has the mandate to set up the homologation process.

As far as I can see there is no mention about when LiPos will be on the battery list. So for our country I will try and convince the majority that we should vote yes to get started 1. april with the ROAR list. (And not adopt the dimension rule). But it will be a democratic decision of course.

[mark christopher]

am at work and could not find the apendix

[Bungleaio]

I think this is a mistake to exclude the trakpower saddles all because they are a couple of mm to big in one dimension. I do agree that there should be size limits but why limit it to exclude a product that is already doing well in the market. As far as I'm aware the trakpower saddle lipo's are the most common ones out there currently.

An interesting point I've just noticed, If the packs are delt with by volume rather than any one specific dimension;

Proposals 139 x 47 x 23.5 = 153.52cm3
Trak power 3200 saddles 2nr 47 x 22 x 71 = 146.83cm3
Trak power 4900 sticks 144 x 23 x 137 = 144.95cm3

They are larger by nearly 2cm3 than the sticks but most of that is due to the additional connectors, they are still well within the maximum volume set out in the proposal.

I understand that limiting batteries by volume isn't a good idea, I'm just looking at it as many different ways as possible. I bet the wizards are working away to develop a set of saddles that comply with the dims set out and we will end up passing on our current cells. I hope they manage to do it as this is the only thing keeping me from racing in next years regionals.

[mark christopher]

trakpower are looing at thier options.

personally i feel let down by those suposedly representing me as a brca member!

[c0sie]

Does that technically mean that I might not be able to attempt to enter any Regionals in 2009 with my current TrakPower saddles??

[Bungleaio]

Does that technically mean that I might not be able to attempt to enter any Regionals in 2009 with my current TrakPower saddles??

It's looking that way:thumbdown:

[c0sie]

*crys like a girl*

Hmm...

[Belsten]

Does that technically mean that I might not be able to attempt to enter any Regionals in 2009 with my current TrakPower saddles??

Shouldnt affect you Chris as youre too much of a girl to venture outdoors :p

[jim76]

I must agree with Mark here that the BRCA really has missed the boat on this one. Not allowing the saddles, but allowing the stick pack with identical performance seems crazy. And in the process they are ruling out over half the 4wd chassis from being able to run lipo. Therefore there isn't a level playing field at all, something the BRCA was trying to ensure?!?
I personally can't see trakpower or any other big names releasing revised spec cells just for us, there just wouldn't be enough money in it.

Why the BRCA couldn't just limit capacity and voltage and adopt all the safety tests like ROAR i don;t know.

[MattW]

Guys, i'm not sure what anyone was expecting to happen (this is just my reading of the situation btw - i could be off base!!). "The BRCA reps" were unlikely to propose (to EFRA) to allow your longer saddles - because it was their proposal to put them outside of the guidelines in the first place. If you felt strongly about having a different dimension for saddles, then the BRCA AGM was the only place this was likely to happen - i.e ask your BRCA section rep to represent the section to the EB to modify their spec/proposal.

[SHY]

Well... this is what I've been trying to tell you guys over and over again...

The BRCA or whatever organization is not one "giant brain" or oracle that always knows what's best. Each and every one driver with a brain has to communicate his thoughts to his federation! Next time write a full proposal yourselves! It's pretty straightforward!

We saw this coming and are most likely adopting the ROAR list from 1. april. And we'll just add the EFRA list when it finally comes.

It's been puzzling me for a long time how ROAR seem to have a much easier set of rules - and still it works just fine! Not to forget the IFMAR rules which are very simple - yet it works like a charm! K.I.S.S.

Anyways, down to the details - as I understand now it's just 1:10 OR as to EFRA classes that can use LiPo, or am I wrong? (The electric track minutes is not yet posted) Anyone know more specific?

[MattW]

I guess we need to wait for the Elec track minutes, however, i don't think there was a proposal to change the rule that said cars driven by 5 cells - or something like that!

[SHY]

Yeah, voltage is a problem...

I've heard about testing in the US for 1:12 with the newer ABC123 cells and smaller types of motors... I've heard rumours about a possible 3V cell also... but I don't have anything specific...

And in any case that's not "up for graps" at this point of time...

Obama for president!!! :thumbsup:

[matdodd]

Guys, i'm not sure what anyone was expecting to happen (this is just my reading of the situation btw - i could be off base!!). "The BRCA reps" were unlikely to propose (to EFRA) to allow your longer saddles - because it was their proposal to put them outside of the guidelines in the first place. If you felt strongly about having a different dimension for saddles, then the BRCA AGM was the only place this was likely to happen - i.e ask your BRCA section rep to represent the section to the EB to modify their spec/proposal.

I was at the AGM Mat and we couldnt do anything about the dimensions for saddle packs!

[Jonathan]

Stating / repeating the obvious, a hard cased lipo by the nature of its construction will be longer when placed end to end than its equivelant stick pack. What is the logic behind not having a different max dimension for saddles ?

Is there a rational explanation, if not then youve got to laugh or cry (depending on how many Trakpower saddle LiPo's you own) because I just dont get it.

[jim76]

ok, slightly confused.

Shy put a proposal forward to EFRA based purely on voltage and capacity?

BRCA put a proposal forward stating voltage and dimensions?

and EFRA accepted both, joining them together?

yet Norway are going to run to ROAR rules for their own club/national series? So if they run at the Euros they would have to get different cells compatible with EFRA?

Is there anything to stop the BRCA going this route too, to scrap the dimension rule? or does this have to wait until next year now?

[SHY]

YES! The americans managed to vote for Bush two times... but they're not entirely stupid!

Just allow the hardcased saddles already on the ROAR list. If some manufacturer manages to do the trick as to making saddles smaller and still hardcased - just add that as well! It would sell like hot bread!

If Trakpower could make em' exactly the size of NiMH - of course they would!!!

What could have been done at the EFRA AGM was not to vote for the BRCA proposal. Or for BRCA to withdraw it.

Those with chassises made for stickpack of course don't give a damn...

@Jim76: That's spot on! Except capacity is also from BRCA

[DaveG28]

I was at the AGM Mat and we couldnt do anything about the dimensions for saddle packs!

I'm trying to understand all this, can anyone help with:

How did the BRCA proposal end up including the dimensions unless we asked for them?

Having proposed those dimensions could they not have been amended at the AGM?

[SHY]

As I understand you asked your EB to more or less "take care of it"... simply stating "we want LiPo"...

Of course they do a great job and have the best of intentions. Just be more specific NEXT year! :D I'm confident they'll appreciate more detailed input. Those guys have a lot to coordinate!

I for one would be more than happy to help formulate a proposal (for any country) if asked. There's so many great ideas around, but most of them are never sent.

And Mark: I'm not gonna pull your leg anymore! Even though it was served with some "strong mustard" most of your points in the initial discussion were very sensible. So those were incorporated in the proposal from Norway :thumbsup: You guys represent the #1 scene for 1:10 OR in Europe - you've got first hand knowledge!

[mark christopher]

Guys, i'm not sure what anyone was expecting to happen (this is just my reading of the situation btw - i could be off base!!). "The BRCA reps" were unlikely to propose (to EFRA) to allow your longer saddles - because it was their proposal to put them outside of the guidelines in the first place. If you felt strongly about having a different dimension for saddles, then the BRCA AGM was the only place this was likely to happen - i.e ask your BRCA section rep to represent the section to the EB to modify their spec/proposal.


matt as i understand it they were not allowed to discuss size at the agm

the brca proposal stated 5000mah, odd how that got changed!! especially as this is claimed to be race legal before the AGM.......... http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-batteries/lipo-competition-car-line/produkt/lipo-5100-competition-car-line-saddle-pack-74v-28c/details/

the BRCA claimed to want dimensions to create a level playing field, well they have done that:thumbdown: all that has happend now is that the most popular lipo saddle wont be legal, even though they fit in cars, and now lipo users have one modern stick pack car to buy should they wish to run lipo........level playing field my ass!

[mark christopher]

YES! The americans managed to vote for Bush two times... but they're not entirely stupid!

Just allow the hardcased saddles already on the ROAR list. If some manufacturer manages to do the trick as to making saddles smaller and still hardcased - just add that as well! It would sell like hot bread!

If Trakpower could make em' exactly the size of NiMH - of course they would!!!

What could have been done at the EFRA AGM was not to vote for the BRCA proposal. Or for BRCA to withdraw it.

Those with chassises made for stickpack of course don't give a damn...

@Jim76: That's spot on! Except capacity is also from BRCA

but capacity got adjusted to suit other manufactures http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-batteries/lipo-competition-car-line/produkt/lipo-5100-competition-car-line-saddle-pack-74v-28c/details/

[DaveG28]

but capacity got adjusted to suit other manufactures http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-batteries/lipo-competition-car-line/produkt/lipo-5100-competition-car-line-saddle-pack-74v-28c/details/

Do they fit the dimensions though!??

Again, if someone can answer, if the dimensions can;t be discussed at the AGM, who chose the dimensions exactly!?

[jim76]

so is that saddle compatible with the new rules?

i personally don't care which company it is (but i assume Nosram will bring out an identical pack lol), as long as i can use a lipo next year!

It does seem very harsh on trakpower though as they were the front runners pushing lipo.

[SHY]

but capacity got adjusted to suit other manufactures http://www.lrp.cc/en/products/vtec-batteries/lipo-competition-car-line/produkt/lipo-5100-competition-car-line-saddle-pack-74v-28c/details/

It was in the agenda before the EFRA AGM.

That LRP saddle is not hardcased as far as I can see.

Mark - you know the guys at Trakpower don't you? Can you please give them a call and ask if it's at all possible at this point in time to make hardcased saddles that comply with the max. dimensions? And how low mAh rating it would take to do so...

I can hear "2000 mAh"... ;)

[jim76]

just checked the pack dimensions, it's 25mm deep, so outside the rules also! but it is the correct length.

[mark christopher]

It was in the agenda before the EFRA AGM.

That LRP saddle is not hardcased as far as I can see.

so the capacity got adjusted (lifted) to level the playing field compared to nimh!!! :confused:

[dan_kitty]

In short version:


The case must have original suppliers label intact, stating the rated voltage and the pack capacity. Maximum capacity is 5,500mah. The Brand name/logo shall be easily readable.
.

My trakpower stick pack doesnt state its capacity anywhere (original 4900 pack)

im guessing this is going to cause a problem? :cry:

[GRIFF55]

You got a permanent marker Dan!!:woot::thumbsup:
Agreed, it is such a shame for trakpower if their saddles aren't within the legal dimensions as they were one of the first to jump on the hard cased saddles. Lots of investment already:(

[terry.sc]

Again, if someone can answer, if the dimensions can;t be discussed at the AGM, who chose the dimensions exactly!?The dimensions are exactly the same as used by ROAR, it's pretty useful to use the same dimensions as everyone else. The Trakpower batteries aren't ROAR legal either according to their dimension rules, but ROAR allow them as the choice of saddle packs are limited to the Trakpowers and a pack from SMC so right now ROAR ignore the dimensions of them. I'm sure if others started making saddle packs under 139mm overall length then the rules will be tightened.

From this thread (http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13551&page=8)
roar lipo list is here http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php?PHPSESSID=af284b3db64079a32e6f1bb3 017f4a5c

they have allowed saddle till dimensions can be established
"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established "

[DaveG28]

It'd be good to know if any ok saddle packs are on their way?

If not, I'm not changing car so would probably get some Nimh again to get a setup sorted!

[fifi]

Someone knows a saddle pack that fit these dimension?

I have look for and haven t found any.

For ROAR
Physical Specs:

8.3.2.2.1 Hard Case & Dimensions
A factory encased hard shell pack is mandated for race durability reasons that stem from the
vulnerability of Lipo cells to physical damage. Any physical distortion, denting or puncture to
the cells will cause either an immediate or long term safety risk. A hard cased pack reduces
this risk significantly by protecting the cells from crash damage, battery ejection, and general
wear and tear at the track.

The maximum dimensions are:
Length: 139mm +0mm/-3mm
Width: 47mm +0mm/-2mm
Height: 25.1mm +0mm/-3.0mm

These are in place to standardize pack dimensions in order for chassis manufacturers to now
be able to design around a consistent set of fixed dimensions.

[SHY]

RC is not really a big industry. And makers of LiPo packs have to use industry standard LiPo single cells. If you look at RC airplanes you can get very small to very big packs. But once you get up to a usable mAh rate for cars the packs need to be a certain dimension.

Surely Trakpower made the smaller 3200 saddle packs in order to make fitting easier, as the 4800 ones are a bit big. If you need anything smaller than that the mAh rating will again need to be smaller... and you'll then have runtime problems - and also loose the fantastic feature of long practise runtimes with LiPo. Not to forget the weight is low per se so you'd rather carry a larger battery. Lead weight does not give extra runtime ;)

And as long as it's not a competitive advantage why should EFRA bother for 1:10 OR?

[DaveG28]

The LRP says race legal, bit if it doesn't meet ROAR specs where is it legal?

I'm beginning to think it's back to nimh for me, if Lipo have been legal for a year in the US but there's still no saddle Lipo's about and no stick Lipo cars other than the Cat, can't see that changing much in the next 5 months, hope I'm wrong!!

[JCJC]

The size thing seems to have "defaulted" to something not quite what we wanted, just like life in many ways. Seems to me there has to be some movement from the BRCA or battery assemblers to allow saddles or make saddles that fit.
We cannot have an option that excludes most modern 4 wheel drive cars.

SMC is close with 4900 @ 67x45x25 1.5mm to tall, I would love to use this pack if...... Ref: http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-off-road/240270-smc-7-4v-4900mah-lipo-25c-saddle-pack.html

MaxAmps have 4000 @ 69x45x21, 3300 @ 66x34x19, 2200 @ 66x34x13

so perhaps saddles can be produced.

I want to race next year with one type of cell with my charger set to lipo, but I may have to carry two types of batteries and two chargers and adjust weight as we go. I cannot believe that after all the discussion over the last year we have reached this position - by default.

[RogerM]

The LRP says race legal, bit if it doesn't meet ROAR specs where is it legal?

I'm beginning to think it's back to nimh for me, if Lipo have been legal for a year in the US but there's still no saddle Lipo's about and no stick Lipo cars other than the Cat, can't see that changing much in the next 5 months, hope I'm wrong!!

Don't forget the Lazer ZX5-SP ...... with a 3200 LiPo slotted in it's side to side balance is near spot on!!!

[SHY]

From ROAR:

"*This pack is configured saddle pack style and has been granted conditional approval until saddle pack dimensions are established"

I think this means that ROAR will make a set of max dimensions for saddle packs. I.e. bigger than for stickpacks. Which is common sense!

What is commercially available & safe now the drivers can compete with - way to go!

[jim76]

Is there any way for the EB to revise the size specs, or adopt a seperate saddle pack size before 1st April?

LIPO was approved at the AGM by the racers, and it's up to the EB to set the rules/specs. Can they bring in some sort of emergency change that can take affect for next season, pending a propper revision at next years AGM?

[SHY]

Doesn't hurt to try! Give PW a call! :thumbsup:

[OldTimer]

I raised all these points at the agm, as my main concern was if we go along with the brca efra proposal then there are no commercial available lipo saddles that fit within the sizes. I guess i did not get the point across that well :(

But we were advised that we could not deiced on the size of lipos as this is upto the EB, the other option would be to break away from the EB, but there was no proposal to do this.

I am sure that the trakpower saddles would be allowed next year, as i cannot see any other manufactures getting tooled up and into production in time to get them submitted for approval. And maybe the EB will relax the size requirement for next year only, or until there are more saddle lipo options available?. Fingers crossed :thumbsup:

[jim76]

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

[RcRob]

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

Maybe thats what they wanted?

[mark christopher]

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

Maybe thats what they wanted?

thats they way im seeing it.................:thumbdown:

[SHY]

C'mon guys! They're doing their best - and with the best intentions! And stop saying "they" - this is "YOU" :)

Just someone of you guys summon up the key points here and send an e-mail to PW! How about Jonathan and Craig doing this?

They have a large room of play in making these rules it seems - so make sure they get as much input as they can!

And don't forget... the finished rules in the EFRA handbook has not always been the same as what was in the minutes. This year they forgot to specify one mandatory fuel stop for 200mm when they increased the qualification heats to 7 minutes... to solve the fuel consumption problem ;)

[mark christopher]

C'mon guys! They're doing their best - and with the best intentions! And stop saying "they" - this is "YOU" :)

Just someone of you guys summon up the key points here and send an e-mail to PW! How about Jonathan and Craig doing this?

They have a large room of play in making these rules it seems - so make sure they get as much input as they can!

And don't forget... the finished rules in the EFRA handbook has not always been the same as what was in the minutes. This year they forgot to specify one mandatory fuel stop for 200mm when they increased the qualification heats to 7 minutes... to solve the fuel consumption problem ;)
this year 2008 rules was 5 mins

next year is 7 mins no fuel stop as the prosal. 8th is 7 plus mandatory stop.


its certainly not us.............or it would have been decided at the brca agm the eb, answer to them selves! brca sections opt weather or not to use em, me thinks the bikes have it right

[SHY]

Mark, now I officially give up on you... :eh?: 10-4!

[Lee]

I love it when you two fight, it makes my day, such interesting topics too :thumbsup:

How about a thread making up for next years agm proposals :woot::thumbdown:

[Cockerill]

I love it when you two fight, it makes my day, such interesting topics too :thumbsup:

How about a thread making up for next years agm proposals :woot::thumbdown:

:lol:

[mark christopher]

Mark, now I officially give up on you... :eh?: 10-4!
hurrahhhhh thank got for that.....................................:thumbsup :

[Chrislong]

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?

I think many would still. As the Nimh cells would be used half as much, last twice as long!

But what may also happen, is certain cars become less popular, OR some racers may choose to just do one class (less likely). As to be honest, who wants to use Nimh atall? Not me - id rather sit out a season of nationals/regionals until Lipo does come in.

The BRCA and Efra realise that to not allow Lipo would significantly cut the entries at there events as there are many who don't want to buy Nimhs, I see them as a waste of money now. Basically Lipo has got to be allowed, just by how much we've yet to see. But the decision makers are there to represent us, from experience they do that well and I hold a lot of hope for the rules we need to be what we get.

Chris

[Ted Maul]

Sorry for being Mr Thickie Blackadder Thickie here but.... surely it is the responsibility of BRCA/EFRA/EB or whomever to, with the help of their representatives, create a set of rules that will create a level playing field and be simple to scrutineer and abide by - hence they should be concerned with nominal voltage, capacity, even maximum current discharge, charging methodology and the homologation process.

Standardisation of size will be a benefit to many racers, but thats really up to the manufacturers to agree amongst themselves? If you desgn a chassis, you are wise to design ones that will accomodate as many cell types as possible and conversely, if you design cells then you are wise to design them so they fit as many chassis' as possible?? I see no reson why dimensions should play a part when output and capacity are the factors that affect its perfromance??

A 20c 5000mah 7.4v lipo shaped like a banana is no better or worse than the trakpower or orion equivalent, but people wont use it because its stupid. I would suggest setting the key technical specifications and leave the ones that are purely academic to market forces. LxWxH and ground clearance for the overall cars fine, but dimensions for the internals seems a bit unnecessary to me. But like I say, apologies if I'm being thick.

btw I have a zx-5 and orion carbon lipos:thumbsup: but I dont race right now anyway:thumbdown:

[Bungleaio]

All this discussion between us is all well and good but we need to speak to the BRCA? The options are;


Your 1:10th offroad contacts

Chairman/EFRA Rep Paul Worsley
Secretary/Reg. Co-ord Charlie Fraser
Treasurer Maureen Smith
PRO TBA
Technical Officer Phil Sleigh
National Timekeeper Jacquie Rowcliffe
Head Referee Stuart Whyman
Drivers Reps Tom Yardy

Regional Reps
East of England Trevor Brown
Mid South/Chilterns Keith Wardle
John Cockill
Midlands East Jim Balls
Midlands West Phil Sleigh
North East Graham North
North West Stuart Evans
Northern Ireland Michael Todd
Scotland John Allen
South East Steven Brooke
South West David Rowcliffe
Wales Hywel Mills

I would have thought phil sleigh would be the best to email and discuss this with

[barnyard]

TBH the set of rules regarding the size of lipo's was fully expected.

At last winters worksop series whan Mark Christopher had a set of the saddle pack trackpower batteries he was passing around to check fitment into different chassis we took the time to measure them.

The issue was raised at the time that if the BRCA and EFRA were prepared to ban the previous seasons NIMH batteries for being marginally over sized they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions should LIPO or any other battery technology be allowed in future years as this could be said to give them an immediate advantage.

If me and others had these thoughts last year surely the cell manufacturers must have considered it.

The only thing we couldn't decide upon was the reedy pack with the locating humps on would the humps be included or excluded in any measurements.

[mark christopher]

TBH the set of rules regarding the size of lipo's was fully expected.

At last winters worksop series whan Mark Christopher had a set of the saddle pack trackpower batteries he was passing around to check fitment into different chassis we took the time to measure them.

The issue was raised at the time that if the BRCA and EFRA were prepared to ban the previous seasons NIMH batteries for being marginally over sized they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions should LIPO or any other battery technology be allowed in future years as this could be said to give them an immediate advantage.

If me and others had these thoughts last year surely the cell manufacturers must have considered it.

The only thing we couldn't decide upon was the reedy pack with the locating humps on would the humps be included or excluded in any measurements.



hmmm so then

average nimh sub c diameter is 22.9mm x 6 (in stick form ) = 137.4mm
average length 43mm X3 to make a "tamiya style stick pack" 129mm (agreed no soldering or connections in that)(taken from EB dimensions)


New lipo stick pack max length 139mm,
which kind of craps on your "they sure as hell weren't going to increase the size restrictions " theory some what!!


some of the lipo suppliers have never had any involvment with nimh so they made packs to fit cars...............

[bigred5765]

instead of shouting on here, why not wait to see whats on the rolling list that was promised buy PW, and see if there are any saddle packs out that will fit the job, remember they have until April to get it sorted, I'm sure there are packs out there already that fit the dimensions and the 5500mah limit.i know there are sticks that will be legal, and I'm pretty sure saddles to, just wait and see,

[terry.sc]

it just seems madness not to allow them when the identical spec stick pack is allowed.

In doing so they are pretty much ruling out LIPO full stop as how many people are going to by lipo sticks for 2wd AND nimh saddles for 4wd?This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?

[DaveG28]

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?

Erm, if SMC and Maxamps fit the dimensions, why are ROAR still allowing the trakpower? I thought it was due to lack of alternatives!? So there are correct size/regulation meeting saddles already?? Result if so!

Oh, and understand the other guys point about waiting and seeing for a month or two, but I'd rather not wait till April to find out what battery type and charger etc I need to run!

[bigred5765]

lots and lots of chargers that will do both, ok may be dont wait till april to buy but there should be a list out soon, and it will grow and grow until the cut of date in april,

[mark christopher]

This would be the advantage of having lipo stick and lipo saddle packs being the same overall dimension, as in the new rules.
Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd, so you end up buying a lipo stick pack for 2wd and a lipo saddle pack for 4wd if the next 2wd buggies are designed around a 139mm lipo pack length.

Playing devils advocate here...

The problem here isn't the dimensions, SMC and Maxamps make packs that fit inside the rules and are legal if they end up on the EB list. The problem is that the most popular saddle pack around at the moment, the Trakpower, is too big. Now Trakpower and the other manufacturers have dimensions to work to they can produce packs that fit, the only problem is whether everyone considers we should bend the rules to fit one particular battery pack like ROAR has done. Then if we allow the Trakpower because it is already available what about the Maxamps 6000mah which has also been around for some time but is over the capacity limit?

Give it a year and this won't be a problem as there should be plenty of choice that fits the rules, there might be many more packs around by next April. No one can say right now whether the Trakpowers will be allowed or not, as a transitional year the EB might approve them, and there is of course the question if you are running at the nationals or regionals will you still be using this years lipos or will you be buying new lipo packs ready for the new season anyway?

true they are available, but the wiring is external to the dimensions, apart from the jump lead trakpowers are all internal and far harder to short out compared to those with external wiring, trakpowers are also less mah than those you mention, so the larger case can hardly be called an unfair advantage in performance

[terry.sc]

A 20c 5000mah 7.4v lipo shaped like a banana is no better or worse than the trakpower or orion equivalent, but people wont use it because its stupid. If a banana shaped lipo pack had a performance advantage racers would do whatever it takes to fit it into the car.

Look at nimhs, IB4200s had a small performance advantage over other makes, even though they had the lifespan of a mayfly, yet everyone used them and they gave all nimhs a bad reputation. Now they have been banned due to being oversize :rolleyes: racers are finding there are better 4600mah alternatives that don't need constant maintenance, hold their charge, and are as reliable as 3300s used to be.

[RogerM]

If a banana shaped lipo pack had a performance advantage racers would do whatever it takes to fit it into the car.

Look at nimhs, IB4200s had a small performance advantage over other makes, even though they had the lifespan of a mayfly, yet everyone used them and they gave all nimhs a bad reputation. Now they have been banned due to being oversize :rolleyes: racers are finding there are better 4600mah alternatives that don't need constant maintenance, hold their charge, and are as reliable as 3300s used to be.


On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows

"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!

[Cockerill]

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?

[DaveG28]

On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows

"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!

I bought Trakpower without researching enough whether there were other options. Hopefully some more will go on a list soon!! If not will run Nimh. I agree its my lookout, and I knowingly took the risk when buying. I am not complaining about being caught out this way!

I am in favour of dimension rules myself, I think it should be ok to try and fit them in most current cars. The actual dimension itself seems odd though, as the Trakpower size fits most things (except maybe pred's?). The bit that worries me is that we have a resurgent 4wd class and it would be a shame to put a dampener on it by having rules which effectively favour a few cars. By which I mean I am guessing most people will run Lipo and whatever car it goes in, not keep running nimh. I could be wrong on that I guess!!

Maybe its all a Schu conspiracy!!!:o:o:o:p:p

As an aside but related topic, which cars will run stick packs? The Cat yes, ZX5 SP yes, Durga too? Sure Old Timer has mentioned a way of getting them in an S4 too, and I may have read someone got one in an X5? Anyone managed it in a B44/Bx/501X??

With the ZX-5, I thought I'd read they were runnng the FS or something for the team, isn't that saddle formation? Wonder if they'll use the SP now!

[bigred5765]

On the money mate!!

My E4500 packs haven't been touched for 2 weeks and only took 600mAhs this evening to peak (storage charge check) and before that they had gone 2 months without dropping much.


Playing devils advocate here,

assuming there are packs available that fit the dimentions quoted in the rules what is the problem?

Surely you either buy those packs, a car that takes sticks (ZX5-SP / Cat SX / Durga probably others), or run NiMhs.
How is this different from this year where we had to buy new cells in order to do the nationals if we had IB4200s? My IBs were only 4 months old and still going strong but I wanted to race at the nationals so bought E4500s as did many, many others!


I am hoping that somebody comes on here and explains why the dimension thing is a problem as I really don't understand!!
Sub C-cells are 23mm dia. so that only leaves 1mm for second heatshrink and glue to be inside the 139mm length! To me the regs read as follows
"LiPo packs have to fit into a car designed to run with the current norm of 6 sub-c cells so nobody has to buy a new car just to run the LiPos"

Have I intepreted the dimention rules incorrectly???


I understand why people who have the trakpower saddles feel a little hard done buy but I really can not see any difference to those people who had to buy new cells around Xmas07 or not race for 4 months until the 08 cells were legal!!!


from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,

[bigred5765]

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?

i was thinking the same thing tom

[dan_kitty]

I do see the point of the dimension rule, but surely saddle pack cars are a specialist bit of kit that "little johnny" wouldnt buy, as you cant openly buy pre-made saddle nimh race packs with a tamiya conector from the high street.

Little johnny would either have to organize a model shop to make them up for him or go and buy a soldering iron, solder, bars, wire and some cream for burnt fingers

just a thought

[bigred5765]

nope I'm pretty sure that kyosho and yokomo make saddle pack cars aimed at the bottom end and even rtr side of the market, and saddle packs can be bought in lipo and nimh packs from most model shop pre built over the counter,the fact still remains people are doing what they did last year and shouting before the list even appears, and buying first then wondering why there packs aren't legal,

[racingdwarf]

It would seem the brca and others would take two months working out if they would like suger in there tea or not! This is a real turn off for 10th,batterys last season, lipos this season starting to wonder if I should go back to rallyx.

Need new batterys NOW, thought 3200 trackpower lipos, cheep enough, enough power for what I do, hard case,fit in my 2wd and 4wd cars no probs and low ish cappacity thus must be a safe bet to be legal next year......must be a safe bet........but oh no. Come on boys we are racing toy cars ,does it have to be this hard:eh?:

Rant over

[SHY]

Having lipo saddle packs being 3-4mm longer than sticks like we have now means your saddle pack could be too long to fit your 2wd

That's not correct, they fit just fine, even the 4800s. See http://www.ymr.no/10orTip1.htm (http://www.ymr.no/tech1.htm)

Just wondering if anyone had actually seen a solid set of spec's from EFRA/BRCA/EB yet? If so care to give me a link?
http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/files/%7BE74F7A47-2C42-4789-8B78-1CCDA453E1AB%7D.pdf

[super__dan]

It would seem the brca and others would take two months working out if they would like suger in there tea or not!

I think that's in credably harsh and a massive uderestimation of the time and effort that a lot of people put into running our hobby unpaid :thumbdown:

To note, though the X5 was never designed to take stick lipo, it currantly can be home converted very easily and shortly will be able to be converted VERY easily by way of a simple retaining method. So it's not on the list of ones that take it with no mods but on a list of fit with very simple mods (yes some dremmel action ;) )

[c0sie]

I think that's in credably harsh and a massive uderestimation of the time and effort that a lot of people put into running our hobby unpaid :thumbdown:

As Chair of another section I totally agree.

You might wanna offer your soul up at the next AGM and get onto the Committee. Anyone who thinks its an easy ride is sadly very much mistaken. :thumbdown:

[mark christopher]

from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,

they fit in a b44 no mods mneed and unless you have tried em in the rest how can you say that?

nope I'm pretty sure that kyosho and yokomo make saddle pack cars aimed at the bottom end and even rtr side of the market, and saddle packs can be bought in lipo and nimh packs from most model shop pre built over the counter,the fact still remains people are doing what they did last year and shouting before the list even appears, and buying first then wondering why there packs aren't legal,
wonder if you would say that if you were sponsored by trakpower or centre point

[_sleigh_]

http://www.motorsportforbundet.no/files/%7BE74F7A47-2C42-4789-8B78-1CCDA453E1AB%7D.pdf

Having quickly read through those minutes it seems ammendments to the proposal were raised and voted on at the EFRA meeting. So if the dimensions of saddles were such an issue, why was that not raised and ammended? As you can see, other details of the specification were ammended.

Height is now 25mm (additional chassis protrusions are allowed)
Maximum capacity is now 5500mAh
Maximum charging voltage isnow 8.40v

There were plenty of national representatives at the meeting to raise any concerns with other elements of the proposal if they felt the need. There were also manufacturing representatives there too.

[SHY]

The agendas are long and time short, so there's seldom much spare time for long discussions. That's why it's so important to have the proposals complete with all technicalities. And rather have different ones so it's a matter of picking the preferred one.

I've tried to contact FlightPower in order to get a statement from them (no one present right now). I'm quite certain that at this point in time it's not technically possible to make saddles any shorter. I'll be back once I get in touch with them.

A NiMH cell is 23mm thick. 3x that is 69mm.

Trakpower saddles are:
4800 mAh: 71mm
3200 mAh: 70mm

You can as I've pointed out make narrower packs, but then you'll have to use less capacity cells. Which then in turn would have to bee stacked on top (coupled in parallel) = too high. So in order to make a legal one now it would be of very low capacity. Hence not very interesting for most racers.

I've once opened up a flight pack. The "ears" for soldering are VERY small & thin, so there's really nothing you can do to reduce the size. The only thing would be to drop the hard casing, but that would be dangerous.

We can of course sit on our hands and wait for #2 generation LiPo batteries... But we have these now, and they work great! Let's stop fiddling around and get racing with them! :thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

shy should you qoute dimesnions please get em the right way round!!!!
you may want to check here www.trakpower.com (http://www.trakpower.com)

at this moment in time you wont get a statement from trakpower,
i am in contact with them and they are looking into the situation,and talking with relative parties. but as i said there is at the moment in time no official statement

[SHY]

4366
(from their website)

For once I agree, it's logical that the 3200 ones are narrower (didn't measure myself). I'll double check at home!

Tell TrakPower to update their web then next time you speak to them! ;)

[mobile chicane]

from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,


my trakpower 4800 saddles fit in my b44 fine all
I had to do was lenghten the battery clamp studs

[peetbee]

my trakpower 4800 saddles fit in my b44 fine all
I had to do was lenghten the battery clamp studs

Yep all you need is 4 longer screws and some washers. They also fit in my B4, just need some longer screws in place of the thumbscrews.

Still, it's too late to debate this now isn't it?

[terry.sc]

they fit in a b44 no mods needed and unless you have tried em in the rest how can you say that? Conversely you can't claim that all Trakpowers fit in every chassis without modifications - that includes not replacing or extending the battery posts or straps or the work needed to get them into a XX4.
I would say no mods needed means you can take out your nimhs and pop in your lipo pack without doing any work apart from flipping over the kit battery strap. Can you honestly say that they fit into the B44 with no mods needed? Having to lengthen the posts and having to come up with something to stop them sliding into the shaft count as chassis mods to a lot of people.


I will agree with you about nimh saddle packs though, apart from ones built by the r/c car specialist shops ready built saddle pack batteries just don't exist any more. High end buggies designed for saddle pack batteries already limit their market by not having readily available packs as every other car you can buy these days using 7.2v uses a stick pack. Anyone coming to 4wd OR from any other class would either have to rebuild their nimhs or buy new saddle pack lipos.

[mark christopher]

Conversely you can't claim that all Trakpowers fit in every chassis without modifications - that includes not replacing or extending the battery posts or straps or the work needed to get them into a XX4.
I would say no mods needed means you can take out your nimhs and pop in your lipo pack without doing any work apart from flipping over the kit battery strap. Can you honestly say that they fit into the B44 with no mods needed? Having to lengthen the posts and having to come up with something to stop them sliding into the shaft count as chassis mods to a lot of people.




I will agree with you about nimh saddle packs though, apart from ones built by the r/c car specialist shops ready built saddle pack batteries just don't exist any more. High end buggies designed for saddle pack batteries already limit their market by not having readily available packs as every other car you can buy these days using 7.2v uses a stick pack. Anyone coming to 4wd OR from any other class would either have to rebuild their nimhs or buy new saddle pack lipos.

3200 are thinner than nimh, so just tape em to the bettery strap, im sure little johnny could cope with that.......... oh hang on some cars need thier chassis filing to sit the nimh in, maybe little johhny can not modify his car............to fit nimh


come on this is model car racing. MODEL how many owners do you know that are incapable of modifying thier car,is it not part of the enjoyment? if they carnt then there are companies that sell kits, if the owners carnt work on their cars, they bought em from toys r us!

how many car are there out there that dont have some form of mod done to em

[Lee]

3200 are thinner than nimh, so just tape em to the bettery strap, im sure little johnny could cope with that.......... oh hang on some cars need thier chassis filing to sit the nimh in, maybe little johhny can not modify his car............to fit nimh


come on this is model car racing. MODEL how many owners do you know that are incapable of modifying thier car,is it not part of the enjoyment? if they carnt then there are companies that sell kits, if the owners carnt work on their cars, they bought em from toys r us!

how many car are there out there that dont have some form of mod done to em

x6, is one, mine is box stock:thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

x6, is one, mine is box stock:thumbsup:

silly me thinking it was a modified associated B4:p:p

odd how the x6 is not a full kit......................................:woot:

[bigred5765]

mark rules are rules they were there before lipo,s were used in car racing, I'm not anti lipo fare from it i want them just as much as you or anyone else,yes were looking at Trakpower for a drive,what annoys me is didn't they come and ask you about how big / small to make them,you seem to have all the answers surely you could have pointed them in the right direction,instead of whining after the fact, why didn't you do something before the decision was made or try waiting to see what the list brings,

[SHY]

mark rules are rules they were there before lipo,s were used in car racing, I'm not anti lipo fare from it i want them just as much as you or anyone else,yes were looking at Trakpower for a drive,what annoys me is didn't they come and ask you about how big / small to make them,you seem to have all the answers surely you could have pointed them in the right direction,instead of whining after the fact, why didn't you do something before the decision was made or try waiting to see what the list brings,
You made my day, thx!!! :wub

[Lee]

silly me thinking it was a modified associated B4:p:p




Nope, its a converted B4, it says so on the box :woot:

[mark christopher]

mark rules are rules they were there before lipo,s were used in car racing, I'm not anti lipo fare from it i want them just as much as you or anyone else,yes were looking at Trakpower for a drive,what annoys me is didn't they come and ask you about how big / small to make them,you seem to have all the answers surely you could have pointed them in the right direction,instead of whining after the fact, why didn't you do something before the decision was made or try waiting to see what the list brings,
we used the size of cells available (reduced cost as a cell did not have to be custom made), we did our best they fitted in most cars without major mods

the lipo sticks are longer than a nimh equivalent and were aproved by the brca list

wait.................... have no choice but i have lost my faith............

[mark christopher]

You made my day, thx!!! :wub
lol from the guy who's proposal did diddly squat re dimensions;)

[RogerM]

from what i can under stand, the dimensions are there because of little johnny that goes and buys a brand new b44 or yokomo etc saddle pack car,and then buys lipos to big to fit so has to take a chain saw/dremmel to it to make them fit,not a happy johnny me thinks,


I think we are violently agreeing!! :thumbsup:

[bigred5765]

I'm not anti lipo in fact ill be one of those screaming if nothing is sorted buy April first,but I'm not gonna start ranting and raving when no one knows what legal illegal yet thats just plain silly,SOME people are upset because they have cells which are most likely unusable, at nationals next year,O wait didn't that happen last year, when will people ever learn, WAIT FOR THE LIST THEN BUY,
o and yes mark ill be the guy in the pits dremmeling my x5 to fit lipos stick packs, as said im not aginst it,

[SHY]

Guys, I think we can all agree that if hard cased saddles CAN be made to fit without any modifications - then that would be great. Given a reasonable C and mAh rating.

But what if you can't? Today this does NOT EXIST.

Those who don't want to buy a conversion kit or do some home made mods can still run NiMH. So why hinder those who'd like to do a very minor mod? What's the problem with that?
-dangerous?
-competitive advantage?

Any problems in the US doing this for one full season?

Racing rules should have a reason to exist!

And I'm still talking ONLY about OR. Track is a completely different story.

@Mark: You still haven't read through the norwegian proposal? We did NOT set size restrictions... What planet are you from? Do you eat bananas without peeling them? :D

[bigred5765]

not quiet true shy, the lrp ones are silly close, and we have no idea whats in the pipe line,

[SHY]

are the LRP ones hardcased?

[bigred5765]

kind of half cased,

[Northy]

kind of half cased,

Kind of like half a job? :woot:

G

[SHY]

=?

The typical shrinkwrap would not pass you see...

1 HARD CASING
1.1 LiPo battery packs must have a hard, protective case that surrounds the cell(s) in the racing application. A factory encased hard shell pack is mandated for race durability reasons that stem from the vulnerability of LiPo cells to physical damage. Any physical distortion, denting or puncture to the cells will cause either an immediate or long term safety risk. A hard cased pack reduces this risk significantly by protecting the cells from crash damage, battery ejection, and general wear and tear at the track. EFRA defines the "hard case" as a case made of ABS or similar type material. The case shall consist of two (2) halves with each half being constructed from a single mold that is not easily pliable and retains it shape without any exterior or interior support. Both the top and bottom sections of the case must be secured together by glue, double-sided tape or heat seal in such a manner that separation of the case to remove or replace the cells will destroy the case and/or label and render it unusable in competition. The case must be installed by the manufacturer or value added manufacturer. No end user installed cases are acceptable. The case will protect the cells from damage on all sides and will completely cover all cells having only openings for wire connections. Any modification to the factory approved hard case will make the pack ineligible for participation in EFRA sanctioned events.

+ drop tests etc...

Don't get me wrong! A hardcased saddle within specs would be superb!

Still... if you think about this being a fun hobby for most... wouldn't it be great to fit a BIG LiPo with massive mAh - you can use only one pack at races - you can enjoy looong practice runs - why miss all that because of the old size specs for NiMH cells. This is mixing oranges with apples! :D

[mark christopher]

Guys, I think we can all agree that if hard cased saddles CAN be made to fit without any modifications - then that would be great. Given a reasonable C and mAh rating.

But what if you can't? Today this does NOT EXIST.

Those who don't want to buy a conversion kit or do some home made mods can still run NiMH. So why hinder those who'd like to do a very minor mod? What's the problem with that?
-dangerous?
-competitive advantage?

Any problems in the US doing this for one full season?

Racing rules should have a reason to exist!

And I'm still talking ONLY about OR. Track is a completely different story.


this really hurts me......................................i have to agree with you!!

[mark christopher]

@Mark: You still haven't read through the norwegian proposal? We did NOT set size restrictions... What planet are you from? Do you eat bananas without peeling them? :D

nope but we still got em....................

no though i hear its a delacy in Norway:woot:

you have a pm

[SHY]

http://www.slantmagazine.com/images/film/kpax.jpg
(http://www.slantmagazine.com/images/film/kpax.jpg)
Banana. Hard cased... :thumbsup: (http://www.slantmagazine.com/images/film/kpax.jpg) (http://www.slantmagazine.com/images/film/kpax.jpg)

[SHY]

Checked the measurements of the 3200 and 4800 Trakpower saddles. Mine are actually the same footprint more or less - and that's 70mm long for both! (you can compress the casing a bit) So I'm guessing they've just stacked one more cell into the 4800 (1600x3 vs 1600x2 ?).

To be 100% correct the 3200s seem to be 70,5mm and the 4800s 70mm. So actually the 3200 ones are slightly longer than the 4800s.

Measurements are "without" the shrinkwrap.

[mark christopher]

Checked the measurements of the 3200 and 4800 Trakpower saddles. Mine are actually the same footprint more or less - and that's 70mm long for both! (you can compress the casing a bit) So I'm guessing they've just stacked one more cell into the 4800 (1600x3 vs 1600x2 ?).

To be 100% correct the 3200s seem to be 70,5mm and the 4800s 70mm. So actually the 3200 ones are slightly longer than the 4800s.

Measurements are "without" the shrinkwrap.

correct mr holmes :thumbsup:

[SHY]

OK, so now our national AGM is over - and this is what we're doing:

All LiPos on the EFRA and ROAR list can be used starting 1. april 2009

(Also for touring)

[SHY]

http://www.nexusracing.com/images/SMC4925SP_demo.jpg
4900mah 25C Competition 7.4V Lipo Battery - Saddle Pack (w/ hard case)
Part#: SMC 4925SP

http://www.nexusracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_242&products_id=2214&osCsid=d50ecc2dcfad694207e1535637325d0f

http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/lipobattery.php

Dimensions (each cased cell):
HxWxL: 25.5mm x 45.5mm x 67.5mm

>> times two that's a total length of 135mm!!! But it does not pass the height dimension though... (EFRA max 25,0mm) (ROAR max 25,1mm)

This actually does prove that it's possible to make a hardcased LiPo with a small enough footprint to satisfy the 139mm max. combined length of saddles stated by EFRA. But then you'll need smaller & lower internal capacity cells. And hence it must be stacked higher. With lower capacity it would be possible though I guess.

We see that this is now on the ROAR list, and without the asterix :D Even though this is like the Trakpower saddles outside the dimensions.

The US are our flexible friends! :thumbsup:

[Lee]

I'm sorry I really don’t see the point of pointing out that some cells are nearly legal.
If the brca decided to run a 12T motor limit, would you be asking to run an 11 T because its nearly a 12?? I think not. Just like a few years ago when there was a 4200 mah cap on cells, did you ask to run 4300's ?
I just don't get what all the fuss is about, the rules are there, nobody contested them at the agm, there is also nothing to be gained on track by running lipo. Surely it is upto the manufactures to go away and come back with something that is legal or the car manufactures to make conversion kits to enable te use of stick packs.

[SHY]

Lee-Mag, there's a lot of things you don't see :lol:

[m2d]

4900mah 25C Competition 7.4V Lipo Battery - Saddle Pack (w/ hard case)
Part#: SMC 4925SP
Dimensions (each cased cell):
HxWxL: 25.5mm x 45.5mm x 67.5mm

>> times two that's a total length of 135mm!!! But it does not pass the height dimension though... (EFRA max 25,0mm) (ROAR max 25,1mm)

The size for LiPo rule TBC:
The maximum case size is as follows: Length: 139.0mm. Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).

And the SMC 4925SP have not additional chassis location protrusions :

http://www.nexusracing.com/images/SMC_4925SP_20.jpg

Martial

[Benh]

The size for LiPo rule TBC:
The maximum case size is as follows: Length: 139.0mm. Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).

And the SMC 4925SP have not additional chassis location protrusions :

http://www.nexusracing.com/images/SMC_4925SP_20.jpg

Martial



Be careful with these, i hear they have had melamine additives to improve their test results.

[DaveG28]

The size for LiPo rule TBC:
The maximum case size is as follows: Length: 139.0mm. Width: 47.0mm. (The max. width includes any side exit wires).
Height: 23.5mm. (If additional chassis location protrusions are included, the overall max. height is 25.0mm).

And the SMC 4925SP have not additional chassis location protrusions :

http://www.nexusracing.com/images/SMC_4925SP_20.jpg

Martial


Still, at least it suggests to a none expert like me that it IS possible to make them to the dimensions, there's enough spare capacity to lower the mah there and hopefully therefore lower the height! May be wrong but hopefully it means we'll see some properly legal ones at some point soon, and that'll do me!:thumbsup:

Are TP sticks legal by the way, did I hear the rules state the cases must be bonded?

[SHY]

http://www.efra.ws/news/executive001.html

13 Nov Lipo rules, important correction
Some draft versions of the Electric minutes found their way to the public and websites.
Unfortunately there was an error discovered by the proof reader on Saturday evening and corrected for publishing on Sunday.

It concerns the height of the cases for Lipos. The final version such as distributed in the morning was the corrected one and is now on this website: The height of the case is 23,5 mm and NOT 25 mm

[m2d]

:D:D:D

[wouter.z]

check these out, i think they are legal :-)

DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intellect-Lipo-Battery-saddle-pack-7.4v-4200mah-30C_W0QQitemZ380097435025QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 0117?IMSfp=TL090117111008r5142

[JCJC]

check these out, i thinks they are legal :-)

DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intellect-Lipo-Battery-saddle-pack-7.4v-4200mah-30C_W0QQitemZ380097435025QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 0117?IMSfp=TL090117111008r5142

They look great, good size 69x46x23, 4200's and 30c, but they have to be submitted and approved..........wait and see - but I could like em at 70 US$ (48quid this afternoon!) may even fall in the budget, and Intellect so should know the approval route. we live in hope.

[mark christopher]

check these out, i think they are legal :-)

DIMENSION: 69x46x23mm for each

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intellect-Lipo-Battery-saddle-pack-7.4v-4200mah-30C_W0QQitemZ380097435025QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 0117?IMSfp=TL090117111008r5142

They look great, good size 69x46x23, 4200's and 30c, but they have to be submitted and approved..........wait and see - but I could like em at 70 US$ (48quid this afternoon!) may even fall in the budget, and Intellect so should know the approval route. we live in hope.

not wanting to pic spots but i dont see them fitting may cars where on side of the pack fits under the top deck!!
and we carnt go modifying our cars and lifting top decks can we now!!, so should they be banned on those grounds?

[tony12795]

Lee, Your my hero !!!

I'm sorry I really don’t see the point of pointing out that some cells are nearly legal.
If the brca decided to run a 12T motor limit, would you be asking to run an 11 T because its nearly a 12?? I think not. Just like a few years ago when there was a 4200 mah cap on cells, did you ask to run 4300's ?
I just don't get what all the fuss is about, the rules are there, nobody contested them at the agm, there is also nothing to be gained on track by running lipo. Surely it is upto the manufactures to go away and come back with something that is legal or the car manufactures to make conversion kits to enable te use of stick packs.

[m2d]

Good News for 4X4 drivers and S2 boys :
I just received the Speed Passion Saddle LiPo Hard Case.
I propose the approval of France (same EFRA)

Capacity: 4200mA ( 30C )
Dimensions : 68.6mm X 46.2mm X 23mm
weight: 233 grs

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7915/30c4200minivc9.jpg

[wouter.z]

http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=712

new reedy lipos that are legal!!

[mark christopher]

http://67.199.85.166/main/productdetails.php?text=712

new reedy lipos that are legal!!
at this moment in time they are not on any list so are NOT legal

[Benh]

A friend at our club took a punt on some "LiPo's" from HongKong. 1st were OK. Second set didn't seem right and the casing was loose, Looked inside and in a line were a bunch of NiCd's.

I'll try and get the info. Whilst it was not good, it was very funny!:lol:

[wouter.z]

at this moment in time they are not on any list so are NOT legal

Your right m8. But i think that a big name like Reedy will get them approved.

Well at least i hope so otherwise i will have to buy new nimh cells for next season :-(

[SHY]

I just hope Reedy will make a version with Corally style plugs in the batteries in stead of wires coming out. LiPos will last for several seasons and the wires will need to be replaced.

The Intellect saddles look perfect though!