BRCA 1/10th Electric Off Road AGM Proposals

[Phil Channon]

Some interesting ones.
How would they affect the ability of your club to run a regional or national event?

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/BRCAchairman/Section%20AGM%20Proposals%202014%20Fnl..pdf

[jcb]

As you say Phil, some interesting points there.

I'm not sure they are all appropriate for regional level (or even national level) racing and could seriously impact on a number of smaller clubs that don't have the space nor finances to meet some of the requirements potentially being asked.

[SlowOne]

I love the wheel one, 23.7. It is seriously proposed that you guys measure wheels to a dimension down to 0.01mm, (or 0.0005") in an open field at any temperature between single digit and 28 deg C, on a subject that is unlikely to be round and will flex under the load of the measuring instrument; said instrument having something like a 1% variation due to the operator and with no tolerance to work with. And after all that, it is proposed to exclude someone or something that is non-conforming? You cannot be serious!!! :)

Love to know how that unenforceable rule goes... ;)

[Aire valley]

Some good....e.g. batteries, Some not so good..e.g. raised pit lane..!....pit lane of some sort perhaps, but surely no need to be raised.!
Let's hope common sense prevails..;)

[tyreman]

I love the wheel one, 23.7. It is seriously proposed that you guys measure wheels to a dimension down to 0.01mm, (or 0.0005") in an open field at any temperature between single digit and 28 deg C, on a subject that is unlikely to be round and will flex under the load of the measuring instrument; said instrument having something like a 1% variation due to the operator and with no tolerance to work with. And after all that, it is proposed to exclude someone or something that is non-conforming? You cannot be serious!!! :)

Love to know how that unenforceable rule goes... ;)


I think it aimed more at the 1/8th style of wheel that is now in production for 10th cars.

[smokes]

The rostrum run would rule out regionals at Batley

[Chris Larner]

The silly thing is that some regions already struggle to have enough tracks to make a series, so with the rules about track width and rostrum location this could completely demolish some regions! Do the BRCA realise this or are they trying to start the end of this hobby.

[paulc]

The rostrum run would rule out regionals at Batley


I think it would rule out a lot of clubs not just Batley

I think all the AGM proposals should be put on the BRCA website and some sort of voting system put into place so all BRCA members can vote yes or no to what is being proposed. Would this work ?

[the dug]

Looking at the large disparity in regional entries, perhaps a review of regional boundaries could be productive?:thumbsup:

[mattr]

Love to know how that unenforceable rule goes... ;)Badly, it seems as if someone has just converted the imperial measurement (2.2, 1 5/8, 1 1/2) into mm. Without allowing for any understanding of tolerances. Especially relevant with injection molded plastics which can change dimensions over time. And can change batch to batch depending on the weather.

[mark christopher]

The silly thing is that some regions already struggle to have enough tracks to make a series, so with the rules about track width and rostrum location this could completely demolish some regions! Do the BRCA realise this or are they trying to start the end of this hobby.

Rules are created by brca members, brca officials impliment them.if you don't like em then go to the agm because that's how it works

[mark christopher]

I think it would rule out a lot of clubs not just Batley

I think all the AGM proposals should be put on the BRCA website and some sort of voting system put into place so all BRCA members can vote yes or no to what is being proposed. Would this work ?

Only work if it's yes or no option, as ur unable to debate or amend them .

Eg if u were there. You could amended it to a pit lane and loose the raised part, can not be done via online vote

[dwp102]

The silly thing is that some regions already struggle to have enough tracks to make a series, so with the rules about track width and rostrum location this could completely demolish some regions! Do the BRCA realise this or are they trying to start the end of this hobby.

The latter I think

[mattr]

Would a sanity check not be worth doing on these proposals?

[Mike2222]

Easy, turn up and vote.

[Northy]

The rule proposals are not created by "the magical BRCA", they are proposed by the people mentioned in the proposal.

They will be discussed and voted upon at the AGM, if you care about the outcome go to it.

If I'm honest I think the BRCA committee will think some of them are as stupid as some of you lot do, so I wouldn't worry too much. ;)

G

[Dr Fly]

Just to add a bit of background information about rule proposals.

Any BRCA member can submit a rule proposal. The proposals are then reviewed by the section committee, who cannot do any more than comment on them and provide a recommendation.

Some of the rule proposals have come from the committee members, and some have come from members. As the regional rep for Wales, i attended the last section meeting where these proposals were submitted. And i can assure you, that the committee share your concerns for some of the proposals. Its a little harsh to Criticise the BRCA or section committee when the rules you are no doubt objecting to have not come from them.

During the AGM, all rule proposals will be presented, the section committee’s comments will be added, and a vote takes place. It does not matter how sane or logical the rule is, if the majority vote for it, it stands.

But at the moment, the way to make sure your voice is heard, is to turn up to the AGM, which is being held this Sunday and vote.

[DCM]

I think some of them proposals are sensible (dropping the EB list for starters at regionals) etc, stuff that affects the nationals I don't worry about. The track proposals, I can see where some are coming from, to me, a regional should be an opportunity for club/local drivers to have the chance to drive on bigger tracks, but, if the EB list is dropped, not the need to invest in anything other than budget equipment. Not to sure where this raised pit lane comes from, someone obviously thought it was required.

As for regions themselves, maybe they should be allowed a little more 'flexibility' in how they run things as the regional reps should have a much better idea with suits a region than a bunch of people at a meeting.

[RudeTony]

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

[Steve.T]

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

I agree totally with Tony's first comment that we should run national rules at regional level making it easier to make the transition to national level.

However, the lipo issue is a little more complex. Lipo's are expensive to the extent that almost all of mine are second hand.
Cheap lipo's would seem to be the answer and as for them blowing up, isn't that what lipo bags are for?
I haven't seen the list of lipo's that are currently approved so there maybe some which are cheaper for those on a budget.
Also, if a lipo is on the list one year but then not the next does it suddenly mean that they are liable to explode. Some of us cannot change batteries from one year to the next.

Ready, Aim, Fire

[Dudders]

Interested to see any stats on budget cells compared to high end cells blowing up

[orinoco]

Here are links to both the BRCA lipo homologation standards and also the ROAR homologation standards. Personally they look pretty dam similar and it seems that really homologation does in no way guarantee a lipo battery is safer than one which has not. Basically homologation means that the battery conforms to specified dimensions, weights and already has a UN safety certificate. Am I missing something? What is different about the ROAR and BRCA procedures? Surely any ROAR approved battery will meet the BRCA standards. The BRCA homologation issue just seems like a way of making our choice of batteries narrower and more expensive.....no? http://www.brca.org/content/battery-homologation-procedure/1399 and ROAR... http://www.roarracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ROAR_LiPoBatteryApproval_20130712.pdf

[RobW]

It's a myth that the EB list only includes expensive cells.

I am still running Gen Ace cells I bought new from a UK supplier 2 years ago for the grand sum of £22.50 each. They are still on the list although I think the price may may gone upto £24.50.

If you are on a budget or like me not capable enough to notice any difference in lipo performance then the answer is easy - buy the cheaper ones off the list. Saying that I've never lost a race because car was too slow:woot:

Rob

[DCM]

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

Every, and I mean EVERY LiPo fire I have seen (that is two in total since they have been brought in) have never EVER been the manufactures fault, both were user error, one wasn't fitted into a touring car correctly, got damaged and caught fire the second one was charged incorrectly. Now, looking at it that way, no EB list would prevent those failures. The only thing an EB list can do is to give a paper trail back to an insurance policy in theory. But, with the great interweb, you can buy said BRCA homologated cell from Asia, distributor is home and free and the onus is then on the imported (the user) for any insurance claim. HOW in any right mind does that affect the usability etc of a cell.

As for nationals, first you must get a decent F grading to be able to get a place, so your average racer is only ever, at best, going to get a one off or a reserve and if you are intent on attending a full season, then the cost of EB homologated equipment is minor, but, and this is where people tend to forget..... All those crap cells that get sold off second hand etc go into the hands of budget racers, personally, I would much rather see them use new than knackered old.

Maybe, just maybe, Regional clubs can agree themselves if they adopt rules other than general construction.... I know that where I am, we don't have enough people to put a full event on, let alone scrutineering etc. Regionals is a stepping stone, we all agree that, but the format and shape of that stone seems to have a lot of variants!

[cmgreen]

The rostrum run would rule out regionals at Batley

Not a bad thing then

[mark christopher]

Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and in my opinion should run to National rules and standards.
It also makes more sense to educate the drivers at regional level rather than allowing them to get to a national event and they are all out of their depth and feel everything is strange and against them.

I am not one to agree to cheap non approved Lipos at any event.
As much as we want to introduce more people to the sport we also don't want cheap stuff blowing up all over the place. If allowed, that is what will happen in my opinion.
I know many will say that I've had this and that and its all fantastic but the fact of the matter is we don't have major incidents for the reason that we have that list and only good products are on that list.
If its that good then get it approved - simples!!

OK - you can all shoot me down now - GO!!
LOL

100% agree.....

[mark christopher]

I agree totally with Tony's first comment that we should run national rules at regional level making it easier to make the transition to national level.

However, the lipo issue is a little more complex. Lipo's are expensive to the extent that almost all of mine are second hand.
Cheap lipo's would seem to be the answer and as for them blowing up, isn't that what lipo bags are for?
I haven't seen the list of lipo's that are currently approved so there maybe some which are cheaper for those on a budget.
Also, if a lipo is on the list one year but then not the next does it suddenly mean that they are liable to explode. Some of us cannot change batteries from one year to the next.

Ready, Aim, Fire


they do not come off the list they stay on, that's why the original old gold trakpower cells are still on there

[mark christopher]

if you don't use a list, when a new cell is released, there will be a tendancy for everyone to buy one , it happens with spec classes re motors that are added when the come not annually

[Si Coe]

What concerns me is that there is a big disparity right now between the 'national' driver and the 'sunday club' driver. One wants super serious rules, everything to spec etc, whilst the other wants somewhere to spend Sunday avoiding the wife and kids whilst playing with toy cars.

Regionals are supposed to bridge that gap so realistically they should be more serious than a club meeting but well short of a national. They are meant to be the chance for the average Joe's to get to play with the big boys but over restrictive rules will shut them out.

The issue here is that club drivers tend to be notoriously bad at stuff like going to the AGM, so their viewpoint is rarely considered. This doesn't normally matter as most clubs don't run club meetings to full national rules anyway - but some of the points being raised could impact on 'sunday drivers'. National level drivers - though fewer in number - care more and are used to traveling, so their views are disproportionally represented compared to how many there actually are.

I suspect if voting without having to attend the AGM did exist many decisions would go rather differently.

Not a criticism of the system BTW - just an observation. After all I too could go to the AGM but won't be, so I can't blame anyone but myself.

EDIT - oh and cell / motor / chassis of the week is 99% down to people being sheep. No more, no less. Its incredibly rare the new product is so markedly better that you simple HAVE to have it. Its just that people flock to get the new thing.
So lets be clear this is not a rule to prevent someone getting an unfair advantage - its a rule to protect us from our own stupidity.

[SlowOne]

The BRCA Constitution is clear about what our role is.

(a) To promote the construction and racing of radio-controlled cars.
(b) To facilitate the exchange of information and ideas relating to the sport.
(c) To set rules and standards for construction and racing.
(d) To encourage National and International competition within a co-ordinated calendar.

It is not to promote club racing, but it would be senseless to ignore that fact that (d) would be impossible if there were no entrants, and those entrants start their RC life at a club.

For the club drivers to go down to a shop and buy a car that will be competitive at their local club, there has to be a set of rules. So we do (c) in order that those that just want to go down the club and thrash a car around to get away from things can do so safe in the knowledge that all the cars there can compete against each other.

Imagine there were no rules. That you went and bought a TC from Assoschumo, took it to the club and found yourself thrashed by an Xrarangomiya that is wider and has bigger wheels. Pissed off? You certainly would be! And next week, someone comes along with a completely different motor that is larger and more powerful and hands you your arse on a plate. And so on... How long does anyone think this sport would last if we did not do (c)?

So, having got our rules out there and a big choice of cars, got our Nationals organised and sent our drivers on to Euros and Worlds, we have to turn our attention to (b). What better way to promote our hobby than to have an arrive and drive track stocked with cars from most of the classes you can enter, and supported by a stand of cars from manufacturers you can go and buy now? We do that.

Frankly, the conduct of Nationals is neither here nor there in a real sense - whether your tracks have a raised pit lane or not is rather irrelevant compared to (b) (c) or (d). What is so important is that people go to the AGM and make sure that the Construction Rules are in place, sensible and create the platform for (b) and (c). To that end a discussion on accessibility to cells is waaayyy more important than something as trivial as a raised pit lane.

If you pay attention to your construction rules you influence manufacturers to produce items that anyone can buy and turn up to a club and race. In turn, clubs are free to state which rules they will run to - and the EB lists may not be one of them.

Construction Rules require a 2/3 majority of those voting to be amended, so ideas that have a divided opinion cannot sneak through by the odd vote (see General Rule 11) they have to have good levels of support.

How it works has been stated many times above. Nonetheless, it all starts by having people turn up. Share cars, walk, hitch-hike but please make every effort to get there. Where our most important role is concerned, your vote very definitely counts.

[DrPaul]

If the lipos are in hard cases then they all come out of four or five different factories in China/Taiwan and there is NO direct safety issues with them, its how they are charged that causes the problems.
If the BRCA want to control anything it should be how LIPOS are charged, at what current rate and what voltage depending on the LIPO and with what sort of charger and thats not going to happen is it.

Ive been an electronics design engineer for more years than I care to remember and its the current, rate and voltage you charge at that damages LIPOs not to mention the poorly designed electronics that is used to charge them. Dont be fooled by cheap verses expensive chargers either, some of the better chargers are not anywhere near the most expensive, its all about the accuracy of the charger and it delivering the current and voltage it says it is, how the lipo is stored and so on.

The safety aspect of lipos is totally un-policable due to the above reasons so lets not cloud the waters with statements about cheap lipos blowing up. Ive seen more BRCA approved cells go up in smoke this year due to a number of reasons than the so called cheap (Hobbyking) lipos used by so many club racers charged on "cheaper" chargers.

Back in the days of NiCads etc these also went bang from time to time and there was no governance for club and regional events of what brand had to be used. A no branded stick pack could be bought at any model shop and used and be charged correctly or incorrectly, so no different today, other than we realise charging in a safe LIPO sack is the right and safe thing to do.

People need to be encouraged to come racing, people have less disposable income, lets get back to making racing fun and affordable. Enforcing BRCA lipo and motor rules at club and regional level is not helping the hobby.

[mark christopher]

If the lipos are in hard cases then they all come out of four or five different factories in China/Taiwan and there is NO direct safety issues with them, its how they are charged that causes the problems.
If the BRCA want to control anything it should be how LIPOS are charged, at what current rate and what voltage depending on the LIPO and with what sort of charger and thats not going to happen is it.

Ive been an electronics design engineer for more years than I care to remember and its the current, rate and voltage you charge at that damages LIPOs not to mention the poorly designed electronics that is used to charge them. Dont be fooled by cheap verses expensive chargers either, some of the better chargers are not anywhere near the most expensive, its all about the accuracy of the charger and it delivering the current and voltage it says it is, how the lipo is stored and so on.

The safety aspect of lipos is totally un-policable due to the above reasons so lets not cloud the waters with statements about cheap lipos blowing up. Ive seen more BRCA approved cells go up in smoke this year due to a number of reasons than the so called cheap (Hobbyking) lipos used by so many club racers charged on "cheaper" chargers.

Back in the days of NiCads etc these also went bang from time to time and there was no governance for club and regional events of what brand had to be used. A no branded stick pack could be bought at any model shop and used and be charged correctly or incorrectly, so no different today, other than we realise charging in a safe LIPO sack is the right and safe thing to do.

People need to be encouraged to come racing, people have less disposable income, lets get back to making racing fun and affordable. Enforcing BRCA lipo and motor rules at club and regional level is not helping the hobby.

they may all come from a handful of manufactures, but they are defiantly not all the same quality. they have different grades.
could the fact you have seen more brca approved batteries is simply due to the percentages used?

[mark christopher]

What concerns me is that there is a big disparity right now between the 'national' driver and the 'sunday club' driver. One wants super serious rules, everything to spec etc, whilst the other wants somewhere to spend Sunday avoiding the wife and kids whilst playing with toy cars.

Regionals are supposed to bridge that gap so realistically they should be more serious than a club meeting but well short of a national. They are meant to be the chance for the average Joe's to get to play with the big boys but over restrictive rules will shut them out.

The issue here is that club drivers tend to be notoriously bad at stuff like going to the AGM, so their viewpoint is rarely considered. This doesn't normally matter as most clubs don't run club meetings to full national rules anyway - but some of the points being raised could impact on 'sunday drivers'. National level drivers - though fewer in number - care more and are used to traveling, so their views are disproportionally represented compared to how many there actually are.

I suspect if voting without having to attend the AGM did exist many decisions would go rather differently.

Not a criticism of the system BTW - just an observation. After all I too could go to the AGM but won't be, so I can't blame anyone but myself.

EDIT - oh and cell / motor / chassis of the week is 99% down to people being sheep. No more, no less. Its incredibly rare the new product is so markedly better that you simple HAVE to have it. Its just that people flock to get the new thing.
So lets be clear this is not a rule to prevent someone getting an unfair advantage - its a rule to protect us from our own stupidity.


sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

[Si Coe]

sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

True - but it should also be noted that certainly in my region but I suspect others too if 100 drivers attend a regional realistically no more than 20 will be actively involved in national level racing. The other 80 will be mainly club drivers attending one of their few big meetings of the year.

And herein lies the dilemma: Make regionals too much like nationals and only those doing nationals will go to them BUT relax the rules too much and its really just a big club meeting. Regionals really only make sense with a set of rules bridging the two.

As for not entering regionals - around here it is considered good practice that the other clubs in the region close whenever there is a regional on to encourage people to attend. With up to 6 rounds thats a lot of missed meetings if you don't go.

[DCM]

sunday club driver avoiding the wife may never do a regional, so will be unaffected! clubs can still allow lipo as general rules, this is purely for regional/national drivers

Lets just pick figures out of the air to justify a point we want to make hey??

In my region, there is maybe a handful of drivers who do/would do nationals the rest are club drivers enjoying racing outside of their local club, that would be children AND parents, so lets not try and dust it under the carpet WHO races and where. That's like saying that ONLY rich people go do nationals cause they are the ones who can afford it, all bollocks and smoke screens.

When it was forced on regions that they MUST ensure EB list was used, locally we had quite a few who either decided not to go or just stuck two fingers up to buying batteries to replace perfectly serviceable units just to suit a piece of paper. I for one have myself and two sons who race and another wanting to and a daughter dabbling her toe in, so there we go, lets say I even go for the cheap ones.... that's £150 expenditure to replace serviceable goods......

Si Coes and Dr Paul, I totally agree with you. I would really like to see the figures as to the relative incidences of cells.... guesses are there isn't one.

[mark christopher]

Keep ur wig on DCM, I mentioned no figures.....


Guess you will be at the egm with ur kids then to put your point accross...

[matdodd]

How many years has there been a EB lipo list now?

[DrPaul]

Mark you know better than this, you really dont need to be so condescending to racers who race for fun, some people actually do have lives outside RC racing!
Even though people want their say they may not have the time or funds to attend the AGM and have their voice heard and from experience they may feel even if they did their voice would not be listened to!

All the years I have been racing there are plenty that look forward to regional racing to get their F grading even though they never plan to race at national level. Nationals are for the few when club racing which is the heart of the hobby. Its easy to be elitist about nationals as no other racing matters, but without grass roots the hobby would die. These days the vast majority racing at national level seem to have some sort of support or sponsorship, any discount helps and makes it easy to forget how expensive racing can be. This year alone I have witnessed many racers not bothering with the regionals because they couldn't afford to replace perfectly good lipos and motors just to take part. Our own club ran a clubmans race non BRCA sanctioned alongside the regional and attracted just as good numbers.

Regionals need racers not more obstacles/rules to put people off entering them. All the clubs are run by volunteers, help them not hinder them!

[DCM]

Keep ur wig on DCM, I mentioned no figures.....


Guess you will be at the egm with ur kids then to put your point accross...

You know what Mark, I would LOVE to be at the AGM but with work, family commitments and running a local car club myself, I have far FAR more important things to be doing than to attend a meeting, get pissed off and disheartened with the state of the hobby when I can come on here and read your comments and have it sat in me bundies under a duvet.....

So, whilst you will be pontificating about what rules to vote in/out for us great unwashed, I will be at club, setting up, booking drivers and trying to keep club racing alive in Cardiff, but I will feel really glad that you will be there fighting for the little club, thanks MArk [;)]

What I will say is..... the BRCA needs drivers and member, and... not necessarily, drivers don't actually NEED the BRCA. Maybe, we should be all sent the proposals vie the fancy interweb through this funky electronic mail, a little system could be set up on their Web Portal and we could all lodge a vote, then we can ALL have the opportunity to have a say (and Mark can stop having nose bleeds riding his High Horse).

[DCM]

How many years has there been a EB lipo list now?

I fully understand the original requirement for a battery list in the days of 1200's, 1400's, 1700's, SC, SCE, SCR, SCR SP, then Panasonic, where you had to have 6 packs of cells to be competitive, but as time has gone on, and, as we are in an Off Road forum, where we have gone from having the power and not the duration to, now having more power and duration than we can shake a stick at, I see no advantage of the list apart from stopping stupid people jumping on a bandwagon of a cell cause it apparently has 120C discharge rate etc..... when they can't use the power of their 90C cells now.

I am sure there are sections that need it (stock class racing for instance), or stating that new technology (something different to LiPO) can't be used at a BRCA sanctioned event would suffice. I could even understand if the use of a list could be quantified as making things safer, but, whilst there are people who insist on charging over 1C, chargers being able to charge all sorts of cells, not auto-detecting etc..... sigh....

And to think, we used to charge using a 30 minute timer and resister.....

[matdodd]

I agree with part of what your saying.

What I don't understand is people always seam to say the cost of replacing serviceable goods (lipo's) with lipo's that are on the EB list is to high and therefore prohibitive but most of these people, certainly the ones I know personally have purchased lipo's that aren't on the list in the last 2 years.

There's been a lipo list for at least 6-7 years?
So as pointed out there have been/are cheap lipos on the list so why do people not buy them? Why year after year do we have the same arguments?

[terry.sc]

Do the BRCA realise this or are they trying to start the end of this hobby.
Nothing to do with "the BRCA"
Everything to do with Mark Ashforth and Paul Dickens, those are the two people who have proposed all those new rules.

If those rules are voted in, then the people to blame are Mark and Paul, plus the majority of drivers who turn up at the AGM to vote them in.

All "the BRCA" does is make sure BRCA sanctioned meetings run to the rules that the drivers vote in.




The BRCA homologation issue just seems like a way of making our choice of batteries narrower and more expensive.....no? Short answer - no it isn't.

Using the list means the manufacturers have a fixed date to work around and they can produce cells for that year without there being a constant capacity and C rating war. While buggies now have more power than they would ever need it's not too important, but for stock classes it can end up back in the battery of the month days, when to keep up you had to keep buying the latest batteries that were introduced few weeks.

The EB lists ensure that batteries and motors are commercially available here in the UK, so you can buy exactly the same equipment as the fastest drivers. No homologation means as long as they meet the BRCA specification they are race legal, without the EB list a driver could be using motors and batteries from his sponsor that aren't available to buy.





I think all the AGM proposals should be put on the BRCA website and some sort of voting system put into place so all BRCA members can vote yes or no to what is being proposed. Would this work ?Well, if enough people want online voting then there is a simple way of getting it. Put in a proposal at next years AGM and get it voted in.

The BRCA Committee can't change the voting unilaterally. Any rule, and especially rules which change the constitution, have to be changed at the AGM by a 2/3rds majority.

Each year there is always someone who asks why we can't vote online, yet no one follows it up with putting in a proposal at the next AGM.

[racingdwarf]

I will Agree that at first glance BRCA homologated batteries seem expensive but take a harder look, there are some very good well priced lipo's if you hunt around…and if shops have stock!

[MattW]

There is, and always has been a list of rules that can have "regional variation", so regionals don't have to run to exactly the same set of rules as nationals.

[DCM]

There is, and always has been a list of rules that can have "regional variation", so regionals don't have to run to exactly the same set of rules as nationals.

That was the story in the past Matt, but this year from my understanding the regions were informed that the regional series MUST be run in accordance with the rules laid down in the BRCA manual.

As for batteries, yes Gens Ace are cheap, but more often than not when I looked, what I needed wasn't in stock and needing batteries at the time for the kids, unfortunately the only place that did was HobbyKing. So, serviceable lipo's bought due to the 'budget' ones on the list being unavailable.

[Steve.T]

they do not come off the list they stay on, that's why the original old gold trakpower cells are still on there

I wasn't aware, cheers:thumbsup:

[RudeTony]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

[dwp102]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

I think the point is Tony, that the aim should be to decrease the cost of racing, not add to it. Ironically half (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) the people doing the nationals don't even pay for their equipment anyway, or they are heavily discounted, to the point that their batteries (as this seems to be the main issue of this thread) probably cost less than most people pay retail for their nano tech batteries anyway.

[andrewc]

I'm more concerned with the 3metre track width rule? Unless I've misunderstood it there's plenty of tracks that will struggle. We race indoors and whenever we plan a track layout we try to have a 3m straight, and work on 2.4m width for the rest of the track. In our region (South East) I'm not convinced any of the tracks fit those dimensions? 3m start and turn one, fair enough. Whole track? Not so convinced.

[matdodd]

I think the point is Tony, that the aim should be to decrease the cost of racing, not add to it. Ironically half (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) the people doing the nationals don't even pay for their equipment anyway, or they are heavily discounted, to the point that their batteries (as this seems to be the main issue of this thread) probably cost less than most people pay retail for their nano tech batteries anyway.

How does having a EB lipo list add to the cost of racing? There are cheap lipo's on the list.
If the cost of racing is the issue why has no one proposed a different tyre rule?
Everyone seems to focus on the cost of lipo's and motors all the time.

Lets say you buy 2 packs of lipo's of the list and for arguments sake it costs you an extra £40 total compared to lipo's that aren't on the list.
I was running 2 year old lipo's last week at Kidderminster so the lipos I was running that have done nationals/regionals and club racing for 2 years have cost me £20 a year more.
I see club racers running brand new sets of tyres at club meetings all the time at £15 a set and people running 2 or 3 sets of tyres at regional's and nationals the vast majority at the top run 4-8 sets a day!
So the simple way to reduce costs of racing limit how many new tyres you can run. That will save almost every racer in the country a lot more money than £20 a year but that will start a load more problems i'm sure.

[mark christopher]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

Spot on :thumbsup:

[Chris Elworthy]

I agree with Matt,

Since the forward motor boom the need for new tyres has become even more prominent due to the more direct drive and needed to rely on the grip from the spike instead of using the mechanical grip that a conventional mid motor generates.

Id expect even if we were limited to say 3 sets of dry (schu yellow/BB whites) per meeting it wouldn't effect the overall standings, the top guys will still be at the sharp end but would make for a fairer playing field for the rest of us who pay for our own tyres.

Sadly though, it's highly unlikely to happen.



Chris

[DCM]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.

[Rich D]

Has anybody heard of a novice driver being excluded at a regional due to not having a battery from the list ? I haven't heard of such an incident personally. Back in the good old days it was five packs of cells at £52.50 a pack. That was in the early nineties. Not sure what all the fuss is about. My saddle LIPOS were £60 each. They are two years old and still lively enough for use at club or national events. I'll likely get £20 a pack if I wanted to sell them. The biggest costs are the tyres and the fuel to get to the meetings not the LIPOS.

[mark christopher]

Has anybody heard of a novice driver being excluded at a regional due to not having a battery from the list ? I haven't heard of such an incident personally. Back in the good old days it was five packs of cells at £52.50 a pack. That was in the early nineties. Not sure what all the fuss is about. My saddle LIPOS were £60 each. They are two years old and still lively enough for use at club or national events. I'll likely get £20 a pack if I wanted to sell them. The biggest costs are the tyres and the fuel to get to the meetings not the LIPOS.

And those 5 packs did not last a year let alone two....and we had lists then too....

[mark christopher]

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.


Common sense to me is keep the list..... It won't effect you or ur kids at your club level.

Now had u bough lipo of the list, for the last two years, your kids could be using them now as hand downs....

[DCM]

Yes, I been there, 6 packs of cells at the start of the outdoors then, if you were going to a big winter series, another 6 packs, but back then I only had to fund myself, not a house and family to. And back then the list was, erm, the only cells you COULD buy anyways, and there was still the proviso in the rules to buy the shrink wrapped cheap cells for use to. Now we got more brands than we can shake a stick at and as been said before, there really isn't that many places manufacturing LiPO cells, I would be more concerned with the poor voltage detecting of chargers....

[Rich D]

And those 5 packs did not last a year let alone two....


Exactly, and we struggled to get five minutes runtime out of them. Motors got thrown away after a dozen skims. Now they too seem to last forever.

Reducing the amount of compounds and or tread types available would help to reduce the cost of racing far more than this lipo debate.

[DCM]

Common sense to me is keep the list..... It won't effect you or ur kids at your club level.

Now had u bough lipo of the list, for the last two years, your kids could be using them now as hand downs....

Two years ago, the BRCA didn't seem concerned about how regions ran their regionals, hence the big outcry this year when there was a clamp down.

[Ben The Bike]

Wouldn't it be easier if the rule was that the car and spare/tuning parts can't cost more than X amount total, again with receipts to prove it. So if you buy ridiculously expensive tyres, you won't be able to get a good motor.

If the lipos have to be checked so stringently, why don't the brca just have handout lipos that are all the same?

[Dazzler]

Wouldn't it be easier if the rule was that the car and spare/tuning parts can't cost more than X amount total, again with receipts to prove it. So if you buy ridiculously expensive tyres, you won't be able to get a good motor.

If the lipos have to be checked so stringently, why don't the brca just have handout lipos that are all the same?

A picture says a thousand words.....

[Si Coe]

Comparing the old SCE days to now is a bit unrealistic because CELLS were approved not BATTERIES. It didn't matter what brand it was, just that they were Sanyo SCE's or Panasonic SCR etc.

Today though the same cells can be provided by multiple brands, with some brands legal and others not. Due to the way cells are made now its not so obvious those are Kokams or whoevers so the only way to police it is a list.

The problems isn't the list - its the way you get on the list. The requirement is that a UK importer provides the sample for inspection plus a fee. This means the only approved items are one with a UK distributor who is interested in racing.
But this is the 21st century - Why can't I buy stuff from China? And if I want to use it, why can't I submit it for approval? Just because I'm not an importer doesn't mean I can't ask if its OK - and if it is OK why can't it be approved? Why does it need a UK dealer when I can just as easily buy anywhere?

Oh - and yes I can tell you about potential new regional racers turned away because they didn't have approved list cells. Well not turned away because they never came on race day having already found out but its the same.
They bought non-EB list cells before they started racing, and their cells work perfectly well so even if they can get EB cells cheap why do so when the ones they have now are fine. The result is they just don't race regionals.

Finally I should point out that ROAR approve cells too. There are plenty of ROAR approved cells that aren't on the BRCA list because they've never been submitted.

[cmgreen]

Gents

I cannot believe you are all arguing over a potential cost of MAYBE £20 per Lipo.
You only need 2 Lipos to do a whole season (club - regionals - and nationals)
Furthermore, branded Lipos are worth more 2nd hand so there is no loss compared to ones that no one knows and won't buy

It cost more than that to get to a meeting and back in fuel for Gods sake.

I am really struggling to work out what the fuss is about.
The BRCA don't just look at the casings you know.
The criteria is huge to pass and get on the list and I think they do an amazing job for us.

OK - you can all have another go - LOL

Spot on. I would rather the brca set a standard for regional tracks, get them up to standard. Even pay more to enter a regional if it helps the club put back into to track. There's one track in the ne that's been untouched for 10 years but still gets a regional, it's shocking!

[matdodd]

OK, lets put this in my perspective, up till about 6 months ago, there were 3 of us being competitive, 1 enjoying and 2 playing with it, so those two lipo's arefor 4 of us, so that is £160, that's many MANY weeks club racing or a months petrol in the car, errr, 3 months electricity.... etc...

As for what the BRCA check, let's see, as far as I am aware they take a picture of the cell, the measure it to make sure it is compliant of the rules, they weigh it so that these can go on the EB list as a 'sample' and drivers cells can be checked against it, they also request a paperwork trail to ensure the person/company distributing has the correct insurance etc and that the battery has the correct certification. I don't see anywhere where they physically check them for build quality etc, what is the point, the certification they go through to be transported covers that, and ALL LiPo cells have to go through that careuless as to whether they are BRCA homologated or not. Now, putting on my Rick Assessment hat on, my Engineering hat on, even my H&S, the only thing that is of importance is the Certification, the rest is to ensure trail back in case of incident (1) and that they have a reference point in case of suspected cheating. Now, go back to (1) that goes out of the window if you buy from overseas.

My argument is, in the end, I can fully understand the need for the EB list as a controlled rule for running at national, but I have ALWAYS questioned the need for it at regionals or club, it detracts from encouraging people to expand their horizons when it comes to racing. If someone chooses to go to a national, then it is up to them to look at the rules and be fully compliant.

I do that some common sense is used tomorrow and this whole issue gets put to bed.

But if you had been buying cells off the list for the years we have had one, you wouldn't need to spend £160 now as all yoru cells would still be on it.
Therfore no extra cost and more money to pay the bills.

[DCM]

Some regions haven't run to the EB list for years and as it isn't a stock class, when my original LiPO's were on their last legs, knowing the battery wasn't the prime performance factor I made the decision to spend that money elsewhere, it is only this year that has been an issue.

I do agree that Regional tracks should be 'more' than a club day track, as a club organiser, our regional tracks are normally at least 100% bigger with wider lane widths etc so racers can have the 'feel' of a larger track to a national(ish) standard, but they shouldn't have to be concerning themselves with EB list unless they run at a national, as long as the motor is a 540 size and their battery is a 2S in a hard case does it really matter (and the argument of 'well they could be using super new cells'... let them carry on, more fool them if they have spent through the nose for something unnecessary, this is an OFF-ROAD specific issue).

Nationals were over-subscribed this year, and if I intend to run Nationals, or my lad does, then we would HAVE to re-invest and be compliant but as it stands, regional racing is just another way to have fun at low cost.

[Essex2Visuvesi]

Big issue here is that 90% of all lipo cells (the squidgy bags inside the case) are all manufactured in the same factories

[matdodd]

Some regions haven't run to the EB list for years and as it isn't a stock class, when my original LiPO's were on their last legs, knowing the battery wasn't the prime performance factor I made the decision to spend that money elsewhere, it is only this year that has been an issue.

I do agree that Regional tracks should be 'more' than a club day track, as a club organiser, our regional tracks are normally at least 100% bigger with wider lane widths etc so racers can have the 'feel' of a larger track to a national(ish) standard, but they shouldn't have to be concerning themselves with EB list unless they run at a national, as long as the motor is a 540 size and their battery is a 2S in a hard case does it really matter (and the argument of 'well they could be using super new cells'... let them carry on, more fool them if they have spent through the nose for something unnecessary, this is an OFF-ROAD specific issue).

Nationals were over-subscribed this year, and if I intend to run Nationals, or my lad does, then we would HAVE to re-invest and be compliant but as it stands, regional racing is just another way to have fun at low cost.

I would suggest you have a chat with your regional rep then DCM as my understanding is that the EB list hasn't been a regional variation rule in the past (correct me if I'm wrong) so potentially what your saying is the rules haven't been enforced in the past and due to that your now potentially out of pocket.

[mark christopher]

But if you had been buying cells off the list for the years we have had one, you wouldn't need to spend £160 now as all yoru cells would still be on it.
Therfore no extra cost and more money to pay the bills.
my point exactly

I would suggest you have a chat with your regional rep then DCM as my understanding is that the EB list hasn't been a regional variation rule in the past (correct me if I'm wrong) so potentially what your say is the rules haven't been enforced in the past and due to that your new potentially out of pocket.

how I understood it too, I feel some may have only just had it pointed out they should be using the list....

[mark christopher]

Comparing the old SCE days to now is a bit unrealistic because CELLS were approved not BATTERIES. It didn't matter what brand it was, just that they were Sanyo SCE's or Panasonic SCR etc.

Today though the same cells can be provided by multiple brands, with some brands legal and others not. Due to the way cells are made now its not so obvious those are Kokams or whoevers so the only way to police it is a list.

The problems isn't the list - its the way you get on the list. The requirement is that a UK importer provides the sample for inspection plus a fee. This means the only approved items are one with a UK distributor who is interested in racing.
But this is the 21st century - Why can't I buy stuff from China? And if I want to use it, why can't I submit it for approval? Just because I'm not an importer doesn't mean I can't ask if its OK - and if it is OK why can't it be approved? Why does it need a UK dealer when I can just as easily buy anywhere?

Oh - and yes I can tell you about potential new regional racers turned away because they didn't have approved list cells. Well not turned away because they never came on race day having already found out but its the same.
They bought non-EB list cells before they started racing, and their cells work perfectly well so even if they can get EB cells cheap why do so when the ones they have now are fine. The result is they just don't race regionals.

Finally I should point out that ROAR approve cells too. There are plenty of ROAR approved cells that aren't on the BRCA list because they've never been submitted.

Big issue here is that 90% of all lipo cells (the squidgy bags inside the case) are all manufactured in the same factories

when the cells are submitted, they also need data paper work from the manufacture, that includes who makes the bits in the box.... all data is held by the brca so they know what is in each box.

[dwp102]

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

[mark christopher]

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

there off the list so there ok, same as if a European comes to race in uk, his cells are on the list, bought in his country, all ok

[DCM]

What if then you buy batteries on the approved list from china or (more probable) hong kong? How does that affect your insurance claim?

They use this

9. Approval does not engage the BRCA towards any guarantees or responsibilities. The submitter will defend,
indemnify and hold the BRCA harmless from and against any and all liabilities, damages, losses, claims, fines,
penalties, assessments, demands, actions, suits and judgments, including all fees, costs and expenses incidental
thereto, that may be charged to, asserted against or incurred by the BRCA by reason of any loss, damage or
injury of any kind or nature whatsoever in any manner or to any extent resulting from or arising out of the articles
or services approved by the BRCA for use during BRCA events except to the extent resulting solely and directly
from the BRCA’s gross negligence or wilful misconduct.

And as you have brought it in from overseas and not through the correct channel, then I am guessing all the above falls on you....

[dwp102]

So the bottom line is this...you could in theory buy a set of batteries on the approved list, and still not have any insurance if they blow up in your face? In which case this surely begs the question...what is the purpose of the battery list again?! :confused:

[terry.sc]

there off the list so there ok, same as if a European comes to race in uk, his cells are on the list, bought in his country, all ok
I'm sure the official importer who has been bypassed would have a different opinion regarding any insurance claim.

[mark christopher]

I'm sure the official importer who has been bypassed would have a different opinion regarding any insurance claim.

That's as maybe, but how many can actually provide a reciept or proof of where the cell was bought from? Does that make second hand cells even tho on the list not approved?
It's is the pack that's approved.

Your brca insurance is still valiad even if the cells are in on the eb list, the problems comes when the insurance proves. It was a Lipo fault over a user issue, and who they claim thier loss back from.

[Si Coe]

when the cells are submitted, they also need data paper work from the manufacture, that includes who makes the bits in the box.... all data is held by the brca so they know what is in each box.

I'm sure - but it still doesn't mean you can use them if they have the wrong sticker on them!

[mark christopher]

I'm sure - but it still doesn't mean you can use them if they have the wrong sticker on them!

yup has to be as pictured on the list,

[DCM]

Right, on the feeling I will get an email from above.... your BRCA insurance does not cover you for anything other than an incident within the confines of the track. So, if whilst charging (in the lipo sack of course), for one reason or another your lipo goes up in smoke, this is where buying them comes into play. If you have brought in the charger from overseas and it is the fault, you are liable, if you buy from a UK shop, then you have trace back for liability, exactly the same for your battery etc, hence my above post.

ALL cells that are transported HAVE to pass the same NATO testing procedure which is something that at least ROAR and the BRCA request to see proof of when they are homologating. So, if your battery has come from abroad to a UK seller and is not homologated, it WILL have gone through the same rigorous testing process as all those on the EB list, the only difference is a distributor/manufacturer has deemed it profitable to at the up front fee and lose one battery as a sample to gain sales it may not get if it wasn't. Hobbking are obviously selling plenty already and don't feel that by doing so they would make enough sales to pay the admin costs.

Anyways, after a busy club day, how did the AGM go, did the track proposals go through, dropping the EB list??

[mark christopher]

Right, on the feeling I will get an email from above.... your BRCA insurance does not cover you for anything other than an incident within the confines of the track. So, if whilst charging (in the lipo sack of course), for one reason or another your lipo goes up in smoke, this is where buying them comes into play. If you have brought in the charger from overseas and it is the fault, you are liable, if you buy from a UK shop, then you have trace back for liability, exactly the same for your battery etc, hence my above post.

ALL cells that are transported HAVE to pass the same NATO testing procedure which is something that at least ROAR and the BRCA request to see proof of when they are homologating. So, if your battery has come from abroad to a UK seller and is not homologated, it WILL have gone through the same rigorous testing process as all those on the EB list, the only difference is a distributor/manufacturer has deemed it profitable to at the up front fee and lose one battery as a sample to gain sales it may not get if it wasn't. Hobbking are obviously selling plenty already and don't feel that by doing so they would make enough sales to pay the admin costs.

Anyways, after a busy club day, how did the AGM go, did the track proposals go through, dropping the EB list??

even though the cost is £40 and that covers how ever many batteries you send!

so for £40 they could have all their hard case 1s and 2s approved!! Some admin cost!!



7. There will be an homologation fee for each submission received (there can be more than one battery in each
submission). The fee is £25.00 for 1S submissions and £40.00 for 2S submissions or combinations of 1S & 2S.

[Mark A]

For those who could not get to the AGM , there was a lengthy discussion on the battery list.
I've asked sir Paul to put some info out in print to advice you the driver why the list etc and also about the responabilties of product liability and how it effects you, to clarify a few things once and for all

[mark christopher]

For those who could not get to the AGM , there was a lengthy discussion on the battery list.
I've asked sir Paul to put some info out in print to advice you the driver why the list etc and also about the responabilties of product liability and how it effects you, to clarify a few things once and for all


:thumbsup:So list stays, good call :thumbsup:

[DCM]

For those who could not get to the AGM , there was a lengthy discussion on the battery list.
I've asked sir Paul to put some info out in print to advice you the driver why the list etc and also about the responabilties of product liability and how it effects you, to clarify a few things once and for all

What was the vote, did they pass dropping the EB list for regionals?

[MattW]

That was the story in the past Matt, but this year from my understanding the regions were informed that the regional series MUST be run in accordance with the rules laid down in the BRCA manual.

As for batteries, yes Gens Ace are cheap, but more often than not when I looked, what I needed wasn't in stock and needing batteries at the time for the kids, unfortunately the only place that did was HobbyKing. So, serviceable lipo's bought due to the 'budget' ones on the list being unavailable.

Please see rule 2.2 - Note, I have no idea (or interest) what the variation rules actually are.

http://www.brca.org/content/2014-rules/18573

[DCM]

Yeah, seen that already, it is more about how the meeting is run rather than the EB list etc

[mark christopher]

What was the vote, did they pass dropping the EB list for regionals?

No the proposal was withdrawn

Hence my post. :thumbsup:so the list stays, good call :thumbsup:

[DCM]

Why was it withdrawn, did the proposer withdraw it?

[mark christopher]

Why was it withdrawn, did the proposer withdraw it?

They saw sence. :thumbsup:

Only proposer and seconder can withdraw them I believe.

[dazp83]

If I was a retailer I wouldn't want hobbyking products homologated. But as a racer I do.

[DCM]

In that respect, ANY distributor would not want any competition in the market....

[Chris56]

If I was a retailer I wouldn't want hobbyking products homologated. But as a racer I do.

+1 for that comment HK products are so popular now and they offer excellent value for money. I know this has been discussed several times but they really do need homogolating. If the list is to stay then they need to be on it!!

The reality is that the market is changing so retailers have to also (when I say retailers I don't just mean shops, but manufacturers and distributors also).

I've refrained from saying this in the past but I get a bit sick of people who slate racers who use Hobbyking instead of "supporting uk Hobbystores" :mad:

What Hobbyking have shown is that high quality electrics can be imported and sold from a UK warehouse for a fraction of the cost. I've had great service from them so far so will continue to use them.

I do however use my LHS, for other RC goodies: this morning I needed a new TC shell so went to PBM and had excellent service there and a nice chat with a friendly face - something that HK can't do.

[DCM]

Your LHS could never EVER match the price of HobbyKing, for starters most distributors require you to have a premisis with which a customer can visit, also a shop window. Secondly, if you take product X, it is designed, sent out for manufacturing (they make their markup), sold then (normally) to a distributor in the UK (for a small profit), who then sells it to a shop (for a small profit) who then sells it to you (for a small profit), in the mean time, they also got to factor in insurance, employing people, office space etc....

So, what if, like HK, they sell direct to you through outlets, great you get cheap products but very little in the way of support etc (try sending stuff back to Hobbyking, it takes AGES!!).

So there are swings and roundabouts to the system we have in place now. But all this is mute, the proposal about the EB list was withdrawn (would love to know the reason why), we still have a top down system rather than a system encouraging grass roots, it is what it is.

[/tobys]

If you run Hobbyking lipos (or other cells not on the EB) and they exploded and injure a 3rd party, will the brca insurance cover the liability? would it cover an individual who, in the same scenario above, was using cells on the EB list?

[knighthawk]

If you run Hobbyking lipos (or other cells not on the EB) and they exploded and injure a 3rd party, will the brca insurance cover the liability? would it cover an individual who, in the same scenario above, was using cells on the EB list?

It depends if the marshal was on his/her marshalling point, lol :p

[luniemiester]

It will be interesting to see now if the BRCA are insisting on the rules what else will get checked and if people decide to vote with their feet and not attend regionals (not everyone is bothered about getting a grade as 80% aren't interested in racing the Nationals) and clubs start to lose numbers to the oOoos etc or people just decide to run in the open class instead.

I'm also intrigued as they seem to be on a crusade regarding batteries safety etc that in rallyx nationals will they ask for the receiver batteries (Nimh, lipo and life) to be homologated as I don't see a difference between them and lipos (they can still catch fire and explode etc). Same could be said for any gas powered car I suppose.

[dazp83]

Im all for supporting shops but I won't pay double for batteries, the ebuggy 1/8 nationals don't have any restrictions as they don't have the numbers to be choosy. Don't remember anyone going up in flames either.

[dwp102]

This is farcical. So the same governing body has one rule for one lot and another rule for another lot. Surely the least we should hope to expect from the mandarins is consistency across classes?

[knighthawk]

Same goes for the BRCA Micro Nationals, they use soft case lipo's , most are HK bought

Surely a Lipo is a Lipo, do the BRCA test the Lipo's that are submitted to extremes to see if it will take abuse like over charging at above C ratings to see if they catch fire.

Do they preform an NCAP test to see if they can take impact damage.

I'm having a laugh here really but all we are talking about is if the manufacturer/ importer submits the pack for testing !

Can we are racers / purchasers and ultimately the supporters of this sport submit the Lipo pack for testing as it us that have to spend our hard earned cash on these over priced submitted packs?

[d4ve]

Has anybody actually gone through the 'approved' list to source some of the more obscure lipos listed on it from a UK reseller??

[luniemiester]

This is farcical. So the same governing body has one rule for one lot and another rule for another lot. Surely the least we should hope to expect from the mandarins is consistency across classes?

My point exactly

As you can clearly read the 2014 rules don't list any rules regarding the batteries apart from not adding cells to packs used in transmitters. No list of approved batteries though for the car

What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say......

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/Redbull/BRCA-Handbook-2014-FINAL.docx

[mark christopher]

here is a thought!

instead of you all moaning on here you can not use the lipos from hk,

WHY NOT, drop them an email, get them to pay £40 and submit all their batteries, and actually get them on the list. IF their that ok, they will pass and you will all be able to find some thing else to moan about and blame the BRCA!
just a though :woot:

[luniemiester]

here is a thought!

instead of you all moaning on here you can not use the lipos from hk,

WHY NOT, drop them an email, get them to pay £40 and submit all their batteries, and actually get them on the list. IF their that ok, they will pass and you will all be able to find some thing else to moan about and blame the BRCA!
just a though :woot:

Oh I'm not moaning about whether I can use my batteries mark, I'm querieing why there seems to be a double standard when it comes to battery safety and the requirements the BRCA set out with regards liability if something catches fire and causes damages losses amongst different disciplines under the same umbrella

[mark christopher]

you do know that sections can choose not to use the eb list?
proposal, pass proposal, drop list....

[luniemiester]

you do know that sections can choose not to use the eb list?
proposal, pass proposal, drop list....

There isn't a list for 1/8 scale though. My question is should there be as the batteries in use can cause safety issues and liability against the BRCA or host club etc

In fact as all rc cars must have some form of battery that means every class should on safety grounds a battery list IMO

[dazp83]

It doesn't make any difference to me as I have enough racing, let alone nationals. I believe hobbyking have been contacted and nothing came from it?
It's a shame hk won't submit.

[knighthawk]

It doesn't make any difference to me as I have enough racing, let alone nationals. I believe hobbyking have been contacted and nothing came from it?
It's a shame hk won't submit.
At £40 per pack per a submission , is it really a wonder why ?

[matdodd]

At £40 per pack per a submission , is it really a wonder why ?

£40 would cover the cost of submitting all there 1 and 2S lipos

[knighthawk]

£40 would cover the cost of submitting all there 1 and 2S lipos
Ok hands up, I thought it was per pack, guess I'm not to old to learn something, lol

[matdodd]

Ok hands up, I thought it was per pack, guess I'm not to old to learn something, lol

The thing I'm wondering is why any business wouldn't pay £40 to increase sales?

[DCM]

Guys, a list won't make batteries safer one bit, education and decent chargers would solve the issue.... power trips off and you're in a rush and your charger has defaulted back to NiCD..... etc, etc, etc.... Your charger over Volts your battery, your ESC doesn't cut off soon enough for low V..... none of this is sorted by a piece of paper.

[DCM]

The thing I'm wondering is why any business wouldn't pay £40 to increase sales?

Well, I think they sell so much to the other RC markets, why would they need to?

[Jim Spencer]

This is farcical. So the same governing body has one rule for one lot and another rule for another lot. Surely the least we should hope to expect from the mandarins is consistency across classes?

That's very insulting to your fellow racers - remember it's another racer who proposed the rule that your fellow racers voted in that another racer you voted in to enforce it for you - is trying to do..

Some folk on here need to remember how this sport works..

The EB list is voluntary - it was created at the request of the membership of the electric classes to try and ensure consistency and that the cells we're using are at least going to stand up and be counted if something goes pear shaped (the paperwork is all in place and therefore they're Ok to use in the EU and the Manufacturer / Retailer is legally standing behind them when that's proved not to be the case.)
If your section chooses not to use it – that’s entirely up to you and your fellow racers.


The basic LiPo safety rules are actually in General Rules too - to ensure the basics stand up if something fails so the sections not using the EB list (their choice - same as it's the members choice for those that do) and the vast majority of the members happily racing at Clubs, where the lists don't apply, have at least the basics in place.

Next:-

If you think the people your fellow racers voted in are useless it's your responsibility to get off your backside and do the job better yourself.
That's exactly how it works - it's not anybody else's job.


It never ceases to amaze me that people don't grasp the basics that the BRCA is just a collection of racers trying to do their best - and having the ability and funds to ask pukka experts when they need to - and then distributing the info you asked them to do on your behalf.
It's not hard to get your head round - think who you're slagging off before you type - you're quite likely racing against the bloke who proposed the thing you dislike and certainly will be against people who voted for it (or could be bothered to have an input into that process at least)


Oh and lastly re the voting - Yet again nobody proposed to change it - so you can stop complaining on that one!
Not attending I can understand.. asking somebody to put if forward I could understand.. but bitching like mad and not even being bothered to propose it is just plain lazy.


There is NO excuse for not having an input into your sport.

[Jim Spencer]

The thing I'm wondering is why any business wouldn't pay £40 to increase sales?

Ohh I can think of loads - shame I'm not a customer of theirs..
If I was I could demand of them a copy of the paperwork that they would need to submit IF they sent cells in for Homologation.
IF one got that paperwork then it'd be a different question..

[matdodd]

Well, I think they sell so much to the other RC markets, why would they need to?

To increase sales?
If what your saying is the case why do they advertise in mags etc? That costs far more that £40.

[matdodd]

Ohh I can think of loads - shame I'm not a customer of theirs..
If I was I could demand of them a copy of the paperwork that they would need to submit IF they sent cells in for Homologation.
IF one got that paperwork then it'd be a different question..

Mmm good point Jim, maybe one of there customers could ask them?

[Jim Spencer]

There isn't a list for 1/8 scale though. My question is should there be as the batteries in use can cause safety issues and liability against the BRCA or host club etc

In fact as all rc cars must have some form of battery that means every class should on safety grounds a battery list IMO

Hi

Bit of background - the liability for a product sold in the EU rests with the Manufacturer (if it's made here) or the Importer - or possibly the retailer but that's unusual - for it's safe Manufacture and it's inherent fit for purpose.

It does not get back to the Clubs.
(we're all 'The BRCA', you can't separate yourself from It if you're a member, it's a club - same as Me and the Crewe Model Car Club I'm a member of)

The user can be liable for any product we use.

Doesn't matter what it is, from a LiPo battery to a house brick if I'm handling it I'm liable for it, it's where that liability ends up if I'm using it correctly and a manufacturing fault causes me, or somebody else some grief.

That's where Product Liability and the Insurance for it come in - which is what the EU regulations, the EB lists check for, all hangs together.

Hence in the General Rules the basics of safe use are also covered - that's to ensure a user making a Horlicks out of something can't drop the poor bloke running the club into the cacky stuff..

Unfortunately this has been tested several times and it works, it might appear odd - but ensuring the membership is informed (up to you if you can be bothered to read it though..) is so very important.

[Jim Spencer]

Last post - been a long day..

The folks posting about LiPo's and Insurance and Claims in posts 70odd to 70few

You need to Google:-

Public Liability Insurance
&
Product Liability Insurance

Then read 'Insurance and the RC Racer' in the handbook..

As you're well out of kilter about who covers what and how this all hangs together - or drop me a PM if you want to go over it?


I honestly thought that folk were bright enough to vote in people they think are bright enough to ensure this is done right..
The system we have works - trust the people you've voted in - or vote other people in you do, or do it yourself on all our behalf to ensure it's right.

[James]

Jim did a great job of explaining things at the AGM, and as the point has been made many times - When the 'BRCA' proposes something; then that's simply a member of the BRCA who puts it forward, any of you sat behind your keyboard could propose pretty much anything, that is what happened here, if you don't like it, write a paragraph email to the BRCA for the next AGM and come down in force and vote on it, there were 18 voting members in the room with about 13? current racers, how many racers in this section...!? It is run by us for us and is a very simple democracy.

[mark christopher]

Ok hands up, I thought it was per pack, guess I'm not to old to learn something, lol

I have posted it in here at least twice in this thread, bear in mind mbmodels now do their own balls out Lipo, and all been submitted, now if they can and hk can not, that says it all to me.

[Mowen208fly]

Jim did a great job of explaining things at the AGM, and as the point has been made many times - When the 'BRCA' proposes something; then that's simply a member of the BRCA who puts it forward, any of you sat behind your keyboard could propose pretty much anything, that is what happened here, if you don't like it, write a paragraph email to the BRCA for the next AGM and come down in force and vote on it, there were 18 voting members in the room with about 13? current racers, how many racers in this section...!? It is run by us for us and is a very simple democracy.


Well said James :thumbsup:

[terry.sc]

I'm having a laugh here really but all we are talking about is if the manufacturer/ importer submits the pack for testing !

Can we are racers / purchasers and ultimately the supporters of this sport submit the Lipo pack for testing as it us that have to spend our hard earned cash on these over priced submitted packs?
In theory you could submit a pack for approval as long as you can provide all the relevant documentation required, such as the UN safety test certificate and details of the importers liability insurance. The procedure for homologation is found on the BRCA website.

Hobbyking will always fail homologation as being only available from one warehouse isn't classed as widely available in the UK.

[terry.sc]

This is farcical. So the same governing body has one rule for one lot and another rule for another lot. Surely the least we should hope to expect from the mandarins is consistency across classes?
No, the "governing body" for 1/8th scale is the 1/8th scale racers, the "governing body" for 1/10th off road are the 1/10th off road racers.

The 1/10th scale racers voted amongst themselves at the AGM to use the EB lists of batteries and motors for BRCA sanctioned events.

No 1/8th racer has submitted a proposal that the EB should produce a list of receiver batteries that are homologated, and until someone proposes it there is no way "the BRCA" can make any class insist on using homologated items.

BTW the "mandarins" for 1/10th off road are listed here http://www.brca.org/content/committee-contact-details-2014/10012

[terry.sc]

... clubs start to lose numbers to the oOoos etc or people just decide to run in the open class instead.As for clubs, it is entirely down to the individual clubs as to whether they use any or all of the BRCA rules. If clubs did insist on sticking to the full rules then a novice turning up with a basic car with a 540 motor and nimhs wouldn't be allowed to race.

I'm also intrigued as they seem to be on a crusade regarding batteries safety etc that in rallyx nationals will they ask for the receiver batteries (Nimh, lipo and life) to be homologated as I don't see a difference between them and lipos (they can still catch fire and explode etc). Same could be said for any gas powered car I suppose.
That depends entirely on whether a member submits a proposal at the next AGM to insist all receiver batteries are checked, and the majority of racers at the AGM vote for it.

If you think there's a safety concern and fellow racers should be protected, then put in a proposal next year.

[bigt]

All this battery talk ; ( what about the ridiculous track proposals were they shot down ?

[AC199]

Been reading this thread with popcorn in hand, and I see a few issues that the hierarchy are failing to take into account...

1. 99% of people are club racers, and not that serious they would drive 200 miles to the AGM.
2. The AGM takes place once per year and is attended by 20 people or so.
3. These 20 people decide the rules which all BRCA affiliated clubs have to attempt to abide by
4. Mark Christopher's grammar is really bad sometimes and makes my face twitch
5. If everyone decided to turn up, would the venue really be able to support 3-4000 people arriving?

These points taken into account, the only way to get a consensus of what the racing public want as a whole is to put this online (...and give Mark more lessons in the English language)

You cannot base the opinions of the whole racing populous on the opinions of 20 people who decide they have the time and money to show up once a year to some far flung place and act like its a democratic process. It isn't. Its like doing the polls for the general election of the UK government in Lebanon and asking people to go and vote. Ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the Cells list is unreasonable, I think safety is very important, I'm not saying the track width proposal is correct either, but having the rules decided by people who live nearby or have nothing better to do than drive 200 miles one day purely to support a motion is pants-on-head retarded.

Wake up and smell technology for the love of god. All of this bickering and whining could be solved with a few simple polls put on the BRCA website.

1. Do you agree with the motion listed here? (Imagine the "here" is a link to a proposal) 3 buttons "Yes" "No" "I don't give a shit its about Bouring Cars"

Easy mode.

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.

[Neil Skull]

Lots of good replys and some stupid ones.

I think the key thing is the BRCA make rules to help racing.

If you are one of the ones buying from HK and not paying import duty then you dont care about the rules.

Therefore any one asking for non homologated Lipos to be allowed at racing should not be allowed an opinion on the subject, and reported to the authority's immediately. :woot:

Let see who posts about HK Lipos now? I will make a note and call the good people at customs!:thumbsup:

[dazp83]

Well said and how many of those people voting are selling the batteries? All my hobbyking products come from a uk warehouse. Apparently one isn't enough for our vast country.

[Neil Skull]

Please give full name Daz as customs will want to know. hope they are checking whether the UK warehouse is actually in UK!!

[mark christopher]

Been reading this thread with popcorn in hand, and I see a few issues that the hierarchy are failing to take into account...

1. 99% of people are club racers, and not that serious they would drive 200 miles to the AGM.
2. The AGM takes place once per year and is attended by 20 people or so.
3. These 20 people decide the rules which all BRCA affiliated clubs have to attempt to abide by
4. Mark Christopher's grammar is really bad sometimes and makes my face twitch
5. If everyone decided to turn up, would the venue really be able to support 3-4000 people arriving?

These points taken into account, the only way to get a consensus of what the racing public want as a whole is to put this online (...and give Mark more lessons in the English language)

You cannot base the opinions of the whole racing populous on the opinions of 20 people who decide they have the time and money to show up once a year to some far flung place and act like its a democratic process. It isn't. Its like doing the polls for the general election of the UK government in Lebanon and asking people to go and vote. Ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the Cells list is unreasonable, I think safety is very important, I'm not saying the track width proposal is correct either, but having the rules decided by people who live nearby or have nothing better to do than drive 200 miles one day purely to support a motion is pants-on-head retarded.

Wake up and smell technology for the love of god. All of this bickering and whining could be solved with a few simple polls put on the BRCA website.

1. Do you agree with the motion listed here? (Imagine the "here" is a link to a proposal) 3 buttons "Yes" "No" "I don't give a shit its about Bouring Cars"

Easy mode.

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.


Bit personal, sorry for my dyslexia. :blush:

[terry.sc]

Please give full name Daz as customs will want to know. hope they are checking whether the UK warehouse is actually in UK!!
The UK Warehouse is in the UK, their details are
Lucky Stuff Ltd
18 Elmsett Airfield
Elmsett
Ipswich
Suffolk
IP7 6LN
While technically it's just an import warehouse that distributes product in the UK, it is part owned by the owner of Hobbyking. If products are already in the UK then the customs paperwork and any duty owing should already be paid.

[Jim Spencer]

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.

Fantastic!

Somebody has finally twigged it - Yahoo:woot:

So a proposal to change the voting process is Guaranteed to happen - as the officials CANT JUST MAKE IT HAPPEN (you'd know this is you'd read the posts but we'll let you off as it's into 3 figures now;)) as they are bound by the rules the members vote in - the haven't the authority to change the voting process.

Well volunteered that man - looking forward to finally seeing somebody get this proposal in - oddly we're at Gaydon next year and that's huge!

[dazp83]

So I can't have an opinion without being called a criminal ha. Hobbyking have a open day event every year where you can go along and use your planes cars etc and Im sure see their products.

[terry.sc]

Been reading this thread with popcorn in hand, and I see a few issues that the hierarchy are failing to take into account...

1. 99% of people are club racers, and not that serious they would drive 200 miles to the AGM.
For all club racers none of the rules for BRCA sanctioned events affect them. If you are just club racing then the only rules you have to follow are the ones the club chooses to use. If your club insists on only using batteries on the list, then that is the club members choice as the BRCA has no control over the clubs.


You cannot base the opinions of the whole racing populous on the opinions of 20 people who decide they have the time and money to show up once a year to some far flung place and act like its a democratic process. It isn't. Its like doing the polls for the general election of the UK government in Lebanon and asking people to go and vote. Ridiculous.
If you are racing at national level, then going to the AGM is nothing compared to spending a weekend at a race meeting. It was in Nuneaton, not exactly the middle of nowhere and for most the cost of fuel for that trip is less than what many racers will spend on the latest chassis or ESC.


Wake up and smell technology for the love of god. All of this bickering and whining could be solved with a few simple polls put on the BRCA website.

1. Do you agree with the motion listed here? (Imagine the "here" is a link to a proposal) 3 buttons "Yes" "No" "I don't give a shit its about Bouring Cars"

Easy mode.

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.
Try reading the constitution in your BRCA handbook, or download it from the BRCA website if you don't have it. What would online polls do, apart from give people another opportunity to whine about rules.

If you want to change the constitution to allow online voting then the only option is to put in a proposal and get it voted in at the AGM. Every year someone moans about online voting, but even though it's pointed out year after year no one goes ahead and puts in a proposal. Considering how many people on here complain about the rules every year after the AGM, none of them actually go to the AGM to have some say in any rule changes.

As for the size of venue, the AGM is booked into a school or college with more than enough room if everyone did actually turn up. They would be more than welcome as it is disappointing how few actually feel some responsibility towards r/c racing in the UK.

[Mowen208fly]

Im one of the (mandarins) that went to the meeting and did 300 miles up and back to middle earth or Nuneaton as some call it ! So did I go because I had nothing better to do??? I had plenty of better things to do than get up at 730 am to drive to a meeting to talk about Toy cars !!! But I have a real passion for these little cars and no offence I have seen my fair share of racing and racers having grown up in Southern California in the 80s and 90s I got to go racing with the likes of Cliff Lett Jay Halsey and Rick Howart and the late great Mike Reedy in my 20 odd years of racing on and off I think I know what I'm on about! I was also Chariman of TRCCC when the euros were last held in this country so have even given back to the hobby! I went because rather than be a Zulu Warrior on this site I went to have my say? I even asked if there was anything my region would like to propose or change so to give a say to as many as I could. So its great to see what people really think off us that want to make a change and make the effort! and for the record I don't sell batterys !!!!!!!!!!! but still think there has to be rules to cover the safety of all involved. Just my five pence worth !!!!

[AC199]

This is what I dont understand about committee controlled organisations. Always, everytime something comes up, you always get the "we cant just do anything". Its stupid. You're not changing the way things are enacted, you are just making it easier for other people to have their say if their lives mean they cant get to the AGM. Does this really need a motion? I seriously doubt anyone with the best interests of the sport at heart would object to the rest of the members being able to have a say without being forced to travel 300 miles like Mr Mowen208fly did.

I honestly have no idea who half of the people you're talking about Mr Mowen208fly, nor honestly do I have a clue who you are, but its good that you're willing to take the views of your "constituents" to the AGM, the rest of us "Zulu warriors" (epic film) don't have anyone to do that for us. We would all have to drive there, at our own cost much the same as you did. I don't have the time to spend a day away from my 9 month pregnant wife, or the 300 kids I teach 5 days a week. I barely have the time to race.

Terry, again, apologies have no clue who you are either, but I'm sure you're real important to be talking down to us all in the way you are.

Putting things online allows people to not have to go to the AGM to have a voice. It allows the masses to have a voice without spending time away from wives, husbands, kids etc. It allows people to have a voice without spending ludicrous amounts of cash on a meeting, food and drink. Its a logical step rather than the laws be decided by 20 blokes at a meeting the vast majority of members cannot afford the time or money to attend.

Does this really, and I do mean really need to go to a vote or can common sense prevail in a committee for once in the history of the world?

Oh, Mark, its called humour, look it up in a dictionary, I was trying to lighten the mood a little and figured you had a sense of humour...

[dwp102]

I dont understand why the battery rule is applicable to the 1/10 section and not to the 1/8th section. Maybe it is because they are more manly? :wub

[Col]

Dear God, man...
Simply because the 1/8 people have decided not to use it.
If the 1/10 people decided not to use it (at the AGM) then the 1/10th wouldn't use it either.
Simple as that.

[DynaMight]

It does all seem a little strange that others (if I'm reading it right, Micros & 1/8ths) can run whatever batteries they like but we're still stuck.

I dont want to sound like a keyboard warrior but it seems like the guys who go upto the AGM's for 'us' are the types who are happy to spend top whack on RC Gear so keeping the batteries the same makes no difference to them. I know everyone can go, but I'm not exactly a hardcore racer, I'm just a casual Sunday racer so wouldn't take to take a 400mile round trip for a meeting. I also assume that the 20 people who turned up were not all 1/10 guys, so chances are only a few were deciding our fates for the year.

RC for me is cheap fun, I don't want to be spending £40-80 per battery when I can get perfectly good ones for £20, all my kit is budget. If I had to spend top whack for everything, then quite simply, I wouldn't be racing.

As suggested, in this day and age, the BRCA really should open it up to every BRCA member via the web, not a AGM in one location. Easy to setup, you could even do it through a simple questionnaire.

[Mowen208fly]

It does all seem a little strange that others (if I'm reading it right, Micros & 1/8ths) can run whatever batteries they like but we're still stuck.

I dont want to sound like a keyboard warrior but it seems like the guys who go upto the AGM's for 'us' are the types who are happy to spend top whack on RC Gear so keeping the batteries the same makes no difference to them. I know everyone can go, but I'm not exactly a hardcore racer, I'm just a casual Sunday racer so wouldn't take to take a 400mile round trip for a meeting. I also assume that the 20 people who turned up were not all 1/10 guys, so chances are only a few were deciding our fates for the year.

RC for me is cheap fun, I don't want to be spending £40-80 per battery when I can get perfectly good ones for £20, all my kit is budget. If I had to spend top whack for everything, then quite simply, I wouldn't be racing.

As suggested, in this day and age, the BRCA really should open it up to every BRCA member via the web, not a AGM in one location. Easy to setup, you could even do it through a simple questionnaire.

All 20 that turned up were 1/10th guys so again amazing assumption !! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[matdodd]

I dont understand why the battery rule is applicable to the 1/10 section and not to the 1/8th section. Maybe it is because they are more manly? :wub

..............

http://www.oople.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=73441&d=1414535095

[dwp102]

It does all seem a little strange that others (if I'm reading it right, Micros & 1/8ths) can run whatever batteries they like but we're still stuck.

I dont want to sound like a keyboard warrior but it seems like the guys who go upto the AGM's for 'us' are the types who are happy to spend top whack on RC Gear so keeping the batteries the same makes no difference to them. I know everyone can go, but I'm not exactly a hardcore racer, I'm just a casual Sunday racer so wouldn't take to take a 400mile round trip for a meeting. I also assume that the 20 people who turned up were not all 1/10 guys, so chances are only a few were deciding our fates for the year.

RC for me is cheap fun, I don't want to be spending £40-80 per battery when I can get perfectly good ones for £20, all my kit is budget. If I had to spend top whack for everything, then quite simply, I wouldn't be racing.

As suggested, in this day and age, the BRCA really should open it up to every BRCA member via the web, not a AGM in one location. Easy to setup, you could even do it through a simple questionnaire.

Hear hear. Or the the other conclusion is that the BRCA fosters elitism, because competition is excluded for lack of the accepted equipment, even though it is fit for purpose. So which is worse? The risk of loosing ones hand and not being able to get 30 grand for it or elitism? :p

[matdodd]

Dynamight why not spend £25 a pack for ones on the list for the peace of mind if something did go wrong? You dont need to spend £40-£80 a pack!

As one of the mandarins that gave up my free time to have a say at the AGM I find it amazing people can spend so much time posting on sites like this complaining about a hobby we all enjoy, yet wont spare 1 day a year or even every 2 or 3 years to have a say and change things for the better.

[DCM]

Hmmmm, a day away from here and it still goes on without my involvement... I must try harder!!!

OK, some points to ponder...

1. I still haven't seen a reason why the paperwork trail exercise makes one battery safer than another?
2. Just putting a vote online don't make the whinging more, just makes the vote more accessible, can be as simple as three buttons 'YES' 'NO' and 'ABSTAIN', no debate etc, most hotels and conferences have decent internet access, so it could even be streamed over the interweb.
3. My issue isn't with the EB Board, the EB List etc, it is whether it is needed at regional level.

In the end at club level the only thing, as a club we must do is follow the General Rules. IF a club choose to adopt class rules that is up to them, we choose to use the categories but really that is about it, we would never turn away someone (unless it is nitro).

[Col]

1. I still haven't seen a reason why the paperwork trail exercise makes one battery safer than another?

It doesn't. It provides a papertrail for the insurers to trace back (and presumably claim from) in the event of cell failure causing injury and/or damage to property.

[DCM]

Col, I really do understand that, but the impression people have is that the cells on the list are 'safer' than those that aren't, which it seams to why they want the list. And I assume that all those who buy cells from overseas fully understand their responsibility when they purchase and use them?

If you are buying from a reputable outlet (I am sure you can call HK that) then they should have that, and aircraft, boats, airsoft etc seem happy with their cell use.

[Col]

Col, I really do understand that, but the impression people have is that the cells on the list are 'safer' than those that aren't, which it seams to why they want the list.

Indeed.

And I assume that all those who buy cells from overseas fully understand their responsibility when they purchase and use them?

I doubt it very much. People are, generally, quite stupid.

[DCM]

So, maybe it has been lost in the thread, my point that I have tried to get to is....

What should a regional be, should it be a full blown national, eb list and all (although you can choose not to adopt stuff like scrutineering), or do you try to ensure club drivers can try out far more organised events, where they are safe to run what you bring, which caters for all and turns away none? But as the proposal was withdrawn then it is a mute point for another 12 months.

[Coastal]

Lots of good replys and some stupid ones.

I think the key thing is the BRCA make rules to help racing.

If you are one of the ones buying from HK and not paying import duty then you dont care about the rules.

Therefore any one asking for non homologated Lipos to be allowed at racing should not be allowed an opinion on the subject, and reported to the authority's immediately. :woot:

Let see who posts about HK Lipos now? I will make a note and call the good people at customs!:thumbsup:

THE BRCA does not make Rules - It is the racers who make rules by proposing discussing and voting for them at the AGM.

The BRCA implement those rules.

How many times does this have to be said. There are so many posts on this thread and other forums, Facebook etc. " the BRCA is elitist" "Why don't the BRCA do this, that or the other"

THE BRCA is YOU the members, the "BRCA" committees do not change rules, they do not make rules, ONLY YOU THE MEMBERS OF THE BRCA CAN CHANGE THE RULES

[Coastal]

RE ONLINE VOTING.

an important point to rember it is not always a simple yes or no - a proposal may on its own look sensible, that is until it is discussed and problems not seem been the proposer are seen, the proposal can then be changed and a sensible, workable rule can be voted on.

[AC199]

Allowing viewing and discussion online by the simple addition of a text box will facilitate that. I still see no reason to drive 300 miles to the AGM to vote on a proposal...

Col - Were you quoting Men in Black? " A person can be smart, but people are dumb panicky animals, and you know it!" So true...

[mark christopher]

So, maybe it has been lost in the thread, my point that I have tried to get to is....

What should a regional be, should it be a full blown national, eb list and all (although you can choose not to adopt stuff like scrutineering), or do you try to ensure club drivers can try out far more organised events, where they are safe to run what you bring, which caters for all and turns away none? But as the proposal was withdrawn then it is a mute point for another 12 months.

Here's a thought
Put an open heat on with ur regionals, so thowecwith non conforming electrics can experience a big meeting, in their own heat.......simples.....

[Jim Spencer]

Does this really, and I do mean really need to go to a vote ?...

YES

Unfortunately (or not depending on your viewpoint) the voting procedure is a rule - one of your predecessors made the way the voting works a strict rule.

If the Committee - You, and your peers, have voted in - ignore the rules - You, and your peers have voted in - and just do things as they see fit then the membership lose all input into the procedure?

So do you want a Dictatorship or a Democracy?

You can't have both - which if you read this thread is the basic gist of the conversation, some folk want:-
"It's obviously wrong why don't you just fix it?"
Others
"Why are we being told to do this?"

Now we've been going for years and some bits are therefore quite old fashioned (in some people's opinion) and may well need fixing - but we have an organisation that's a quite strict democracy - so it takes input to fix it.

The scary bit is how little input - as you could have made the proposal and sent it in with less typing than you've already done on here.
But nobody does - sad isn't it?

[mark christopher]

Allowing viewing and discussion online by the simple addition of a text box will facilitate that. I still see no reason to drive 300 miles to the AGM to vote on a proposal...

Col - Were you quoting Men in Black? " A person can be smart, but people are dumb panicky animals, and you know it!" So true...

The problem is with online voting you need to be able to read, read the the proposal, and then understand it before making decisions other wise the less intelligent jump to assumptions, odly you and others seem to struggle with at least one part of that.

[Jim Spencer]

The problem is with online voting you need to be able to read, read the the proposal, and then understand it before making decisions other wise the less intelligent jump to assumptions, odly you and others seem to struggle with at least one part of that.

Hi Mark
Actually I think with Skype and similar I think people remote from a meeting can be an integral part of it - just need the right tools and I think it's probably do-able.
Online polls can be another useful tool to gauge a mass opinion that you can then base the above discussion around.

Certainly several sections already use (or have done) polls (it's a choice their members have made) as a tool to do just that - though I don't think any have made the jump to allowing people to join the meeting remotely - and that last bit surprises me really.
It'd only take One person to make the proposal along with the strap line of "and come along on the day to make it work too" and I reckon it might just get voted in.. at least on a sectional basis.

[dazp83]

So if non homologated entries can run at the same event isn't this contrary to the safety rules? The apparent reason for the list? Or would they have to Marshall their own heat and everyone else leave the venue?

[mark christopher]

So if non homologated entries can run at the same event isn't this contrary to the safety rules? The apparent reason for the list? Or would they have to Marshall their own heat and everyone else leave the venue?

Nope

[dazp83]

Okay so the battery list isn't for safety then? Just performance?

[Northy]

Okay so the battery list isn't for safety then? Just performance?

Exactly that :thumbsup:

It come from back in the day when batteries were not good enough to use as much power as was available for a full 5 minutes. There was a real skill to getting to 5 minutes at a decent speed...... New technology batteries coming out half way through a year could make a big difference.

Anyway, that's history......

And before you say that isn't the case any more, well I actually agree with you, it isn't the case. There are a handful of factories making the internals to our Lipo packs, so performance is fairly even (in my opinion) between many packs.

BUT

No one has proposed we don't bother with the list any more, so we still have it.

Make sense?

G

[dazp83]

Okay fair enough but as you've said time moves on, people will have to get to the vote next year and make a few changes. I'm sure people could come together to reduce costs etc for travelling.

[Northy]

Also (I can't actually take credit for this.....):

The EB list stops a company releasing a car that uses an odd shaped battery that is either unavailable to the general public or costs a ridiculous amount of money!

G

[Neil Skull]

THE BRCA does not make Rules - It is the racers who make rules by proposing discussing and voting for them at the AGM.

The BRCA implement those rules.

How many times does this have to be said. There are so many posts on this thread and other forums, Facebook etc. " the BRCA is elitist" "Why don't the BRCA do this, that or the other"

THE BRCA is YOU the members, the "BRCA" committees do not change rules, they do not make rules, ONLY YOU THE MEMBERS OF THE BRCA CAN CHANGE THE RULES

I never mentioned the BRCA was elitist, it is an organisation of us the racers. We all have input. So when i say the BRCA implement the rules i mean the committee who we elected and do all the work on our behalf !

[Chris56]

Also (I can't actually take credit for this.....):

The EB list stops a company releasing a car that uses an odd shaped battery that is either unavailable to the general public or costs a ridiculous amount of money!

G

I just wish then that Tamiya would do more re-releases that will take square LIPO rather than those silly round 6s jobs from yester-year!

[Chris56]

If you are one of the ones buying from HK and not paying import duty then you dont care about the rules.

Therefore any one asking for non homologated Lipos to be allowed at racing should not be allowed an opinion on the subject, and reported to the authority's immediately. :woot:

Let see who posts about HK Lipos now? I will make a note and call the good people at customs!:thumbsup:

Really?? Unless HK are bringing the products into the UK using black speedboats in the middle of the night and storing them in hidden caves I don't think anybody has anything to worry about:woot: Im pretty sure duty is paid if buying from the UK warehouse anyway

On a serious note, the focus of the BRCA needs to be more on how people use their LIPOs rather than dictating which ones people can/can't use at regionals/nationals.

Personally, Im a club racer and haven't bothered with reigionals for some time. If I did choose to go to a regional I would hate to be turned away because my Turnigy/Zippy lipos (which are excellent BTW) weren't on some list.

I did scruntineering for 1 round a few years ago and some kid turned up with an EZrun sensorless motor - not on the BRCA list but I just turned a blind eye and let him race.

I've only witnessed 2 LIPO fires in the past, in both cases the LIPOs were on the BRCA list but they still went up because of mis-use and mechanical failure.

My club has strict rules on using LIPOs:
1) Max 1C charge
2) No discharging using the charger
3) Must be charged in safe container (sack, aluminium box etc)
4) Hard-cased varieties only
Although it is sometimes hard to do this, but we do try and enforce these rules every week.

There may be something similar in the BRCA rules but I would much rather "the list" would be relaced with something to enforce the above rules.

[AC199]

The problem is with online voting you need to be able to read, read the the proposal, and then understand it before making decisions other wise the less intelligent jump to assumptions, odly you and others seem to struggle with at least one part of that.

Oh Mark you really are a vindictive soul aren't you? Is there any need to insult people in such a way? I think you'll find the only person here showing a lack of intelligence is you, no one should throw blanket statements around like that, it's not cool man...

[RogerM]

As Big T asked a few posts back ......

.... what was the outcome of the track related proposals?

Now that is out of the way I have to say I am in favour of the BRCA EB lists being used at regionals (also control tires too but that is a discussion for a different thread) and equally happy to see clubs take the sensible approach of just following the general regs for club meetings.

The point of regionals, as was explained to me by Mr BRCA EB himself many years ago, to provide the step between "club" & "national" racing and to provide a means of grading drivers should they wish to enter national events (including end of season finals).

Part of that step is levelling the playing field across all regions by means of having a set of performance defining components that the are agreed across all regions. Logically that should be the same as that used for nationals so to minimise the transition, both in terms of cost and performance, when the regional driver takes the next step to nationals.

So what happens when 'Mr A.N.Other' decides he wants to do the single regional being held by his home club to get a taste of the next step on the racing ladder?
Hopefully there will be some of his mates will be able to lend him some kit for the day, that is what has normally happened in my experience ... sometimes I've lent kit to strangers to let them race in that situation as have many others I know.
If not then there are still options such as a 'guest' heat. no big deal.

Lets move on from the discussions about EB lists and look at the proposals that might really have influenced racing, those relating to the tracks.

[mark christopher]

Really?? Unless HK are bringing the products into the UK using black speedboats in the middle of the night and storing them in hidden caves I don't think anybody has anything to worry about:woot: Im pretty sure duty is paid if buying from the UK warehouse anyway

On a serious note, the focus of the BRCA needs to be more on how people use their LIPOs rather than dictating which ones people can/can't use at regionals/nationals.

Personally, Im a club racer and haven't bothered with reigionals for some time. If I did choose to go to a regional I would hate to be turned away because my Turnigy/Zippy lipos (which are excellent BTW) weren't on some list.

I did scruntineering for 1 round a few years ago and some kid turned up with an EZrun sensorless motor - not on the BRCA list but I just turned a blind eye and let him race.

I've only witnessed 2 LIPO fires in the past, in both cases the LIPOs were on the BRCA list but they still went up because of mis-use and mechanical failure.

My club has strict rules on using LIPOs:
1) Max 1C charge
2) No discharging using the charger
3) Must be charged in safe container (sack, aluminium box etc)
4) Hard-cased varieties only
Although it is sometimes hard to do this, but we do try and enforce these rules every week.

There may be something similar in the BRCA rules but I would much rather "the list" would be relaced with something to enforce the above rules.

if you are not enforcing number 3 then your not even following the brca general rules which every brca club/member are bound by....

[mark christopher]

Oh Mark you really are a vindictive soul aren't you? Is there any need to insult people in such a way? I think you'll find the only person here showing a lack of intelligence is you, no one should throw blanket statements around like that, it's not cool man...

how did it go?...."thought you had a sence of humour"
but on the contrary, I full understand the procedures and rules and know whats needed to be done to change things, others including you don't seem to be able to grasp whats needed and why!

[Chris56]

if you are not enforcing number 4 then your not even following the brca general rules which every brca club/member are bound by....

TBH I don't think I've even seen a soft-cased LIPO before, let alone at the club!

PS I like the avatar:thumbsup:

[PaulRotheram]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/paulrotheram/facepalm_zpse6dea85b.jpg

[shark]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/paulrotheram/facepalm_zpse6dea85b.jpg

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Coastal]

I never mentioned the BRCA was elitist, it is an organisation of us the racers. We all have input. So when i say the BRCA implement the rules i mean the committee who we elected and do all the work on our behalf !

Read my post - I never said you mentioned the BRCA was elitist I was quoting from other comments as stated in this thread and other forums

[mark christopher]

TBH I don't think I've even seen a soft-cased LIPO before, let alone at the club!

PS I like the avatar:thumbsup:

doh should be number 3

[SlowOne]

Been reading this thread with popcorn in hand, and I see a few issues that the hierarchy are failing to take into account...

1. 99% of people are club racers, and not that serious they would drive 200 miles to the AGM.
2. The AGM takes place once per year and is attended by 20 people or so.
3. These 20 people decide the rules which all BRCA affiliated clubs have to attempt to abide by
4. Mark Christopher's grammar is really bad sometimes and makes my face twitch
5. If everyone decided to turn up, would the venue really be able to support 3-4000 people arriving?

These points taken into account, the only way to get a consensus of what the racing public want as a whole is to put this online (...and give Mark more lessons in the English language)

You cannot base the opinions of the whole racing populous on the opinions of 20 people who decide they have the time and money to show up once a year to some far flung place and act like its a democratic process. It isn't. Its like doing the polls for the general election of the UK government in Lebanon and asking people to go and vote. Ridiculous.

I'm not saying that the Cells list is unreasonable, I think safety is very important, I'm not saying the track width proposal is correct either, but having the rules decided by people who live nearby or have nothing better to do than drive 200 miles one day purely to support a motion is pants-on-head retarded.

Wake up and smell technology for the love of god. All of this bickering and whining could be solved with a few simple polls put on the BRCA website.

1. Do you agree with the motion listed here? (Imagine the "here" is a link to a proposal) 3 buttons "Yes" "No" "I don't give a shit its about Bouring Cars"

Easy mode.

Make it happen or next year there will be a proposal to get the AGM voting shit online and I guarantee a pub wouldn't be a big enough venue, you'd need to hire out Twickenham to get everyone in for that motion.On line voting without discussion would be worse than what we have now. Many proposals are not thought through well in wording, but have the right intent. By discussion and amendment they are put right.

Just look at the 10th Off Road proposal for wheel sizes - a totally unworkable proposal that, if voted in, would have been impossible to police. IF the intent is right then by discussion it would have been made workable. Or do you prefer that each proposal is made workable by the very same small number of people you seem to dislike before it is put on line?

By the way, 100% of the country have the use of a postal vote so they can vote at elections at their convenience. Still we have turnouts of about 65% because people can't even be arsed to make a cross on a piece of paper and post it. What makes you think on line voting would be any better than turning up in person?

The UK Warehouse is in the UK, their details are
Lucky Stuff Ltd
18 Elmsett Airfield
Elmsett
Ipswich
Suffolk
IP7 6LN
While technically it's just an import warehouse that distributes product in the UK, it is part owned by the owner of Hobbyking. If products are already in the UK then the customs paperwork and any duty owing should already be paid.That's not the criteria - the criteria is where the company is registered and where you send you money to. Does the money we send go to the UK or Hong Kong or somewhere else? Most of what you buy on Amazon is paid for in Ireland and supplied from mainland Europe! Sure they replace stuff, but has anyone tested their product liability position? No!

Col, I really do understand that, but the impression people have is that the cells on the list are 'safer' than those that aren't, which it seams to why they want the list. And I assume that all those who buy cells from overseas fully understand their responsibility when they purchase and use them?

If you are buying from a reputable outlet (I am sure you can call HK that) then they should have that, and aircraft, boats, airsoft etc seem happy with their cell use.That impression has been created by uninformed posters on this and other forums. It has never been something said implicitly or explicitly by the BRCA EB or Exec. The EB list provides my Section with stability of supply and the knowledge that if I buy a product form the EB list it is approved for transport to UK and is supported by an agent or manufacturer who is based in the EU and thus liable for the product in the event of things going badly tits up.

Col, Jimmy - for the love of God please put this thread out of its misery. Ta.

[dazp83]

So the brca is a democracy but when people have an opinion, shut the thread down or call them criminals. Ha what a joke. Please do shut it so don't hear the boring replys anymore.

[Col]

The BRCA is a democracy. It's just that most seem not to have realised.
oOple, however, isn't.

[AC199]

Or do you prefer that each proposal is made workable by the very same small number of people you seem to dislike before it is put on line?

Please do me the service of finding which of my posts has me saying I dislike anyone with the time and spare money to go to AGM? I envy them, not dislike them. My suggestion is a method of getting the ability to vote to those of us with lives which preclude our attendance.

On line voting without discussion would be worse than what we have now. Many proposals are not thought through well in wording, but have the right intent. By discussion and amendment they are put right.

So, what you're saying is people have the right ideas but it needs a bit of tweaking? No shit there Sherlock, very few ideas are perfect right from the get go, that's why we should have online discussions beforehand, to change the wording to avoid situations such as the wheel sizes idea etc.

By the way, 100% of the country have the use of a postal vote so they can vote at elections at their convenience. Still we have turnouts of about 65% because people can't even be arsed to make a cross on a piece of paper and post it. What makes you think on line voting would be any better than turning up in person?

Lets ask the population shall we? Rather than the laws of our hobby be decided by those able to go, lets bring the ability to go to the masses by putting it online and have more input. The number of people lacking clarity on these issues such as Cells and wheels means more information is needed.

I've spent so long being around committees and I've seen the way they DON'T work for the last 30 years. People do get stuck in their ways, they make decisions based on too little information and too little input from others, but the attendance of the last 3 AGM's has to be a sign that more input, not less is needed. Yes the details may need tweaking, but anything has to be better than what we have with an impotent committee who's hands are tied and cannot make the changes they want to because 10 years ago someone voted that you had to be there in person to change a bloody rule.

Jim Spencer has been straight with us, its up to us to change the landscape of our sport, up to us to get changed the things that we want changing, and peoples negativity towards getting a greater input baffles me. Mark Christopher I can understand, clearly he has a huge amount of hatred towards me, strange considering I've never met the guy, but hell I rub people up the wrong way so whatever, but all I'm trying to do is give people a voice, is that really such a bad thing?

[DCM]

That impression has been created by uninformed posters on this and other forums. It has never been something said implicitly or explicitly by the BRCA EB or Exec. The EB list provides my Section with stability of supply and the knowledge that if I buy a product form the EB list it is approved for transport to UK and is supported by an agent or manufacturer who is based in the EU and thus liable for the product in the event of things going badly tits up.

Col, Jimmy - for the love of God please put this thread out of its misery. Ta.

Actually, a lot of 'informed posters' are flying the safety flag. I know what the EB List is for and why, been racing long enough. Which is why I kept pushing it, Northy's post hit the reason for the EB list right on the head.

[DCM]

Hi Mark
Actually I think with Skype and similar I think people remote from a meeting can be an integral part of it - just need the right tools and I think it's probably do-able.
Online polls can be another useful tool to gauge a mass opinion that you can then base the above discussion around.

Certainly several sections already use (or have done) polls (it's a choice their members have made) as a tool to do just that - though I don't think any have made the jump to allowing people to join the meeting remotely - and that last bit surprises me really.
It'd only take One person to make the proposal along with the strap line of "and come along on the day to make it work too" and I reckon it might just get voted in.. at least on a sectional basis.

Jim, totally agree, conference calling, webinars etc are massive in business these days, recently, the company I work for did a £1,500,000 refinance on a clients property portfolio, the clients came to the office once, the rest was done via email, skype etc. Technology can make the voting process much more inclusive rather than (for lack of a better word) exclusive (to those who can attend).

As for regionals, some regions struggle with numbers to get decent heats and ability mixing so by excluding people from the regional heats just makes things worse, I much prefer to include people because in the end, if they are going to be racing as billy no mates, they won't come, that's more drivers lost and revenue for the club.

[HOTSHOT III]

So the brca is a democracy but when people have an opinion, shut the thread down or call them criminals. Ha what a joke.

I've been watching this thread with interest, i'm a club racer who knew nothing about LiPo batteries when I returned to racing in 2011 and i've used nothing but Turnigy batteries since then.

It's not rocket science. All I did when I started was read the guide i've linked below, i've never lost a cell and never had a LiPo fire:

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html

To try and dictate to people what brand of batteries they can use seems laughable to me, particularly because I started on 1/8th brushless which, if i've understood correctly, has no restriction despite the fact they run on 2 x 2S or a 4S pack so in theory have twice the level of danger as a 1/10th car running 2S.

Some posters have responded by telling people to basically just quit complaining and buy the approved batteries off the EB list, but why should I when I can get perfectly good, safe, ROAR-legal ones for half the price (or less!!)? Why are the equivalent approved ones so expensive? This is just Ripoff Britain all over again, no different to parallel import motorcycles in the '90s or any other number of examples. It's a short-sighted approach which discourages people from taking up the hobby in the first place.

For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

There is a principle here. Who are they to threaten me with grassing me up to "the good people at customs"? As a person whose ancestors fought against Hitler for my freedom (which is now being taken away by the government) I actually find this offensive on a personal level, it's no different to the Swedish government passing a law which makes it illegal to criticise their mass immigration policy (and yes, they've actually done this). If they want to behave in this way then might I suggest that they get in touch with Kim Jong Un? He's setting up the NKRCA and this pair of jobsworths could be just the fellows!

If the moderators on here take the view that i've been personally offensive then fine, delete my post. That will only serve to highlight the fact that some of us know the difference between the reality of freedom and the illusion of freedom. I have nothing personal against the people whose names i've mentioned, I just think they're very misguided in the way they've tried to argue their point.

[mark christopher]

Please do me the service of finding which of my posts has me saying I dislike anyone with the time and spare money to go to AGM? I envy them, not dislike them. My suggestion is a method of getting the ability to vote to those of us with lives which preclude our attendance.



So, what you're saying is people have the right ideas but it needs a bit of tweaking? No shit there Sherlock, very few ideas are perfect right from the get go, that's why we should have online discussions beforehand, to change the wording to avoid situations such as the wheel sizes idea etc.



Lets ask the population shall we? Rather than the laws of our hobby be decided by those able to go, lets bring the ability to go to the masses by putting it online and have more input. The number of people lacking clarity on these issues such as Cells and wheels means more information is needed.

I've spent so long being around committees and I've seen the way they DON'T work for the last 30 years. People do get stuck in their ways, they make decisions based on too little information and too little input from others, but the attendance of the last 3 AGM's has to be a sign that more input, not less is needed. Yes the details may need tweaking, but anything has to be better than what we have with an impotent committee who's hands are tied and cannot make the changes they want to because 10 years ago someone voted that you had to be there in person to change a bloody rule.

Jim Spencer has been straight with us, its up to us to change the landscape of our sport, up to us to get changed the things that we want changing, and peoples negativity towards getting a greater input baffles me. Mark Christopher I can understand, clearly he has a huge amount of hatred towards me, strange considering I've never met the guy, but hell I rub people up the wrong way so whatever, but all I'm trying to do is give people a voice, is that really such a bad thing?


Let's get this straight, I had not said anything to you till you attacked my dislexia and made it personal......

If you want to gallop in in you shiney armour in your white horse and save all the poor hk souls, then do it via the correct procedure pointed out by me and Jim, look forward to seeing your proposal.....

[mark christopher]

I've been watching this thread with interest, i'm a club racer who knew nothing about LiPo batteries when I returned to racing in 2011 and i've used nothing but Turnigy batteries since then.

It's not rocket science. All I did when I started was read the guide i've linked below, i've never lost a cell and never had a LiPo fire:

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html

To try and dictate to people what brand of batteries they can use seems laughable to me, particularly because I started on 1/8th brushless which, if i've understood correctly, has no restriction despite the fact they run on 2 x 2S or a 4S pack so in theory have twice the level of danger as a 1/10th car running 2S.

Some posters have responded by telling people to basically just quit complaining and buy the approved batteries off the EB list, but why should I when I can get perfectly good, safe, ROAR-legal ones for half the price (or less!!)? Why are the equivalent approved ones so expensive? This is just Ripoff Britain all over again, no different to parallel import motorcycles in the '90s or any other number of examples. It's a short-sighted approach which discourages people from taking up the hobby in the first place.

For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

There is a principle here. Who are they to threaten me with grassing me up to "the good people at customs"? As a person whose ancestors fought against Hitler for my freedom (which is now being taken away by the government) I actually find this offensive on a personal level, it's no different to the Swedish government passing a law which makes it illegal to criticise their mass immigration policy (and yes, they've actually done this). If they want to behave in this way then might I suggest that they get in touch with Kim Jong Un? He's setting up the NKRCA and this pair of jobsworths could be just the fellows!

If the moderators on here take the view that i've been personally offensive then fine, delete my post. That will only serve to highlight the fact that some of us know the difference between the reality of freedom and the illusion of freedom. I have nothing personal against the people whose names i've mentioned, I just think they're very misguided in the way they've tried to argue their point.

I'm not a yes man, I just understand the process and why we have a list. I'm also entitled to my opinion, just like you......
Let's all be honest here the biggest problem is not the £20 it's hobbyking not submitting their cells , if they did that then this would be a non issue

[HOTSHOT III]

I'm not a yes man, I just understand the process and why we have a list. I'm also entitled to my opinion, just like you......
Let's all be honest here the biggest problem is not the £20 it's hobbyking not submitting their cells , if they did that then this would be a non issue

You certainly are entitled to your opinion my friend. That being the case, do you have a view on why I can race an MP9e at the 1/8th ebuggy nationals using Turnigy cells (or for that matter use a Turnigy LiPo RX pack in a 1/8th nitro truggy, a vehicle carrying 150ml of highly flammable liquid) and yet i'm threatened with someone scurrying off and telling tales to the British Establishment if I show up at a 1/10th regional with a Nano-Tech in my car?

I on the other hand appear to "not be entitled to an opinion" to quote Neil Skull.

TBH you make a good point about HK not submitting their cells, I have no idea why they've taken this approach but has anyone from the BRCA actually approached them and told them we have a problem in the UK and maybe they could help resolve it? Communication is the key.

[HarlowS]

Because many a year ago it was voted in that the 10th section had a Cell list, its has never been voted out. On the other hand nobody from the 8th side has voted a cell list in, so they are not ruled by it..... Simples :)


You certainly are entitled to your opinion my friend. That being the case, do you have a view on why I can race an MP9e at the 1/8th ebuggy nationals using Turnigy cells (or for that matter use a Turnigy LiPo RX pack in a 1/8th nitro truggy, a vehicle carrying 150ml of highly flammable liquid) and yet i'm threatened with someone scurrying off and telling tales to the British Establishment if I show up at a 1/10th regional with a Nano-Tech in my car?

I on the other hand appear to "not be entitled to an opinion" to quote Neil Skull.

TBH you make a good point about HK not submitting their cells, I have no idea why they've taken this approach but has anyone from the BRCA actually approached them and told them we have a problem in the UK and maybe they could help resolve it? Communication is the key.

[Northy]

Actually, a lot of 'informed posters' are flying the safety flag. I know what the EB List is for and why, been racing long enough. Which is why I kept pushing it, Northy's post hit the reason for the EB list right on the head.

Thank you :blush::blush:

As Ex BRCA 10th offroad Tech Officer, I'd like to think I understand things a little :) - and that's not to say I fully agree with it all - but I also understand the process required for change......

G

[Northy]

Because many a year ago it was voted in that the 10th section had a Cell list, its has never been voted out. On the other hand nobody from the 8th side has voted a cell list in, so they are not ruled by it..... Simples :)

Nail - Hit - Head :thumbsup:

[HOTSHOT III]

Because many a year ago it was voted in that the 10th section had a Cell list, its has never been voted out. On the other hand nobody from the 8th side has voted a cell list in, so they are not ruled by it..... Simples :)

In which case the BRCA is displaying a glaring lack of consistency across different classes on what is considered by many to be a safety issue. How many LiPo fires have there been at the ebuggy nationals, or in racing outside of the classes subject to a cell list? And how many of those involved or didn't involve Turnigy or other "parallel import" cells?

Furthermore as others have said, how many were due to user error? Taking this to its logical conclusion, if you really want the use of LiPos to be 100% safe there should also be a list of approved chargers, balance devices, LiPo sacks etc. Why has the BRCA not done this to save us from ourselves? After all, if they did this we could all be chraged double the current going rate for an "approved" charger or balance board and those with a vested interest could make even more money.

All things considered the cell list seems a pretty half-baked idea at best.

[HarlowS]

Im pretty sure that all of your questions have already been answered here on numerous posts.... So i urge you to read through this thread carefully and pick out the factual posts.

In Short. 'WE' are the BRCA, not the few people in 'power'.
WE, can choose to vote out the list, even your good self could of put a reccomendation to be voted upon at this at this years AGM.

The Cell list (i say cell as it comes from before lipo's) is not just for 'safety', it provides an audit trail through the manufactures for the insurance to handle liabilty claims. It has never stated that these are the only safe lipo's on the market, which is what most people are thinking it is.



In which case the BRCA is displaying a glaring lack of consistency across different classes on what is considered by many to be a safety issue. How many LiPo fires have there been at the ebuggy nationals, or in racing outside of the classes subject to a cell list? And how many of those involved or didn't involve Turnigy or other "parallel import" cells?

Furthermore as others have said, how many were due to user error? Taking this to its logical conclusion, if you really want the use of LiPos to be 100% safe there should also be a list of approved chargers, balance devices, LiPo sacks etc. Why has the BRCA not done this to save us from ourselves? After all, if they did this we could all be chraged double the current going rate for an "approved" charger or balance board and those with a vested interest could make even more money.

All things considered the cell list seems a pretty half-baked idea at best.

[Chris56]

I like this thread - I don't think it should be shut down but several arguments are repeating themselves, and in reality no rules are going to change until the next AGM

Nice to hear from people like Northy and Slowone who know the intricacies of how the BRCA and their EB works thanks for you contribution guys.

The discussion really needs to be where do things go from here? Whether you agree with it or not, the presence of an "Approval List" does invite strong views which have been discussed in several threads in the past.

This year there was a proposal to simply scrap it and that didn't even make it to a vote at the AGM (based on what I read 8 pages ago!!!).

I suspect alot of the motivation for this is the use of HK LIPOs at Regionals/Nationals - from usage reports by several UK racers they are safe and good quality so should be allowed - thats certainly what I want!!. This can only be acheived by either:
1) HK submitting thier cells to the BRCA
2) Changing the EB rules to suit.

Our of interest, how to ROAR and EFRA work with regards LIPO approval? How do they differ from the BRCA? Ifthere is to be a proposal to chnage the EB rules then perhaps looking at alternative bodies for inspiration is the way forward.

[dazp83]

Hobbyking aren't eligible for homologation as they only have one warehouse in the uk, or one vendor. Themselves.

[Chris56]

Im just considering Gens Ace - you are only able to get them through Giantshark (unless im wrong) in the UK, yet they have made it onto "da list". How do they differ?

[dazp83]

They don't undercut the competition by as much

[Chris56]

They're only £5 - £10 more than the HK equivalents though

[AC199]

Let's get this straight, I had not said anything to you till you attacked my dislexia and made it personal......

If you want to gallop in in you shiney armour in your white horse and save all the poor hk souls, then do it via the correct procedure pointed out by me and Jim, look forward to seeing your proposal.....

Mark, normally I would suggest you aren't worth the time, but this time you've pissed me off.

I dont give 2 shits about Hobbyking, nor cells, nor 50% of the proposals that go off at the AGM. I give a shit about 100% of the rules being decided by 1% of the people. Before you respond with "Go to the AGM then" I would love to, and I'm pretty sure 75% of the rest of the racing public would love to as well, but we have lives that cannot be dropped at the fart of a gnat to drive 300 miles, nor should we have to given the prevalence of technology suitable for the task at hand.

I also fail to see where I have argued for anything to do with HK... I suggest you go back and review my posts, I have made my viewpoint abundantly clear.

As far as who cast the first stone, who gives a shit? Bottom line is you're insulting, dismissive and have a blatant superiority complex. Now, I've spoken to a few people and they all say you're an alright bloke, and I'm sure in person you are, but if you could tone down your rhetoric on here and actually read what people are typing we might make more progress on resolving issues.

I didnt realise that you had dyslexia, but it does explain how you managed to spell it wrong. I have dyscalcula personally. Ever wondered why dyslexia is such a hard word to spell? Anyways, I digress, perhaps instead of bitching at each other, we could use our powers for good and actually move the discussion on and past cells to slightly more important things?

[mark christopher]

You certainly are entitled to your opinion my friend. That being the case, do you have a view on why I can race an MP9e at the 1/8th ebuggy nationals using Turnigy cells (or for that matter use a Turnigy LiPo RX pack in a 1/8th nitro truggy, a vehicle carrying 150ml of highly flammable liquid) and yet i'm threatened with someone scurrying off and telling tales to the British Establishment if I show up at a 1/10th regional with a Nano-Tech in my car?

I on the other hand appear to "not be entitled to an opinion" to quote Neil Skull.

TBH you make a good point about HK not submitting their cells, I have no idea why they've taken this approach but has anyone from the BRCA actually approached them and told them we have a problem in the UK and maybe they could help resolve it? Communication is the key.

This is fact and has been confirmed by Jim the brca guru,
Each section votes to use the eb list, 10th do 8th do not, it is that simple. It's nothing to do with the brca, it's each section voted for by the drivers,

Hobby king have been contacted by the 12th section several times 're Lipo aproval and blinky speedos, they are not interested. They contacted hk, even though it's not their job to do so. It is purely down to hk,

[dazp83]

It was pointed out a while back that hk aren't eligible as they onky have one warehouse in the uk. I doubt theyd have another to be eligible for brca rules. Definitely going round in circles here with more insults being thrown in. Could things be proposed and then voted for at brca approved clubs? With a trusted official?

[dazp83]

Oh and the gens ace are good value, if they're on offer when I need some I'll buy them.

[MattW]

It was pointed out a while back that hk aren't eligible as they onky have one warehouse in the uk. I doubt theyd have another to be eligible for brca rules. Definitely going round in circles here with more insults being thrown in. Could things be proposed and then voted for at brca approved clubs? With a trusted official?

That's been "pointed out" yes, but I've just had a very quick scan of the EB rules and I can't actually see it on there...............

http://www.brca.org/content/regulations/1398

All I could see was.................

2. Homologation Procedure & Price Limits.

2.1 Before any item is added to an homologation list, the BRCA Electric Board Homologation Officer will need to be satisfied that any new Motor or Battery submitted for approval, has originated from a recognised distributor and will be available for purchase via. a UK outlet.

New items submitted for homologation/approval should be sent to :-

[mark christopher]

Mark, normally I would suggest you aren't worth the time, but this time you've pissed me off.

I dont give 2 shits about Hobbyking, nor cells, nor 50% of the proposals that go off at the AGM. I give a shit about 100% of the rules being decided by 1% of the people. Before you respond with "Go to the AGM then" I would love to, and I'm pretty sure 75% of the rest of the racing public would love to as well, but we have lives that cannot be dropped at the fart of a gnat to drive 300 miles, nor should we have to given the prevalence of technology suitable for the task at hand.

I also fail to see where I have argued for anything to do with HK... I suggest you go back and review my posts, I have made my viewpoint abundantly clear.

As far as who cast the first stone, who gives a shit? Bottom line is you're insulting, dismissive and have a blatant superiority complex. Now, I've spoken to a few people and they all say you're an alright bloke, and I'm sure in person you are, but if you could tone down your rhetoric on here and actually read what people are typing we might make more progress on resolving issues.

I didnt realise that you had dyslexia, but it does explain how you managed to spell it wrong. I have dyscalcula personally. Ever wondered why dyslexia is such a hard word to spell? Anyways, I digress, perhaps instead of bitching at each other, we could use our powers for good and actually move the discussion on and past cells to slightly more important things?

see you back here a week earlier next year then we can have same thing all over again.....

[HOTSHOT III]

see you back here a week earlier next year then we can have same thing all over again.....

So you don't have any desire to move onwards and upwards and improve the hobby for everyone, you just want to argue the toss for as long as possible?

If that is the case then "pissing off the whole planet one person at a time" isn't far off!:thumbdown:

[HOTSHOT III]

That's been "pointed out" yes, but I've just had a very quick scan of the EB rules and I can't actually see it on there...............

http://www.brca.org/content/regulations/1398

All I could see was.................

2. Homologation Procedure & Price Limits.

2.1 Before any item is added to an homologation list, the BRCA Electric Board Homologation Officer will need to be satisfied that any new Motor or Battery submitted for approval, has originated from a recognised distributor and will be available for purchase via. a UK outlet.

New items submitted for homologation/approval should be sent to :-

So is the outlet different from the distributor? If so the effects are twofold:

Firstly it ensures that Hobbyking can never submit their batteries for approval because they supply UK customers directly from their UK warehouse (thank God).

Secondly it guarantees any battery on the EB list will be overpriced in the UK compared to the amount it would sell for in the USA or Europe because the distributor has to take their cut.

So if that is indeed the case then the whole thing stinks, it's a price cartel like I said on page 9. Plus the fact, as well as ensuring that the customer pays more, it also makes the supply chain inefficient.

[ashleyb4]

If you dont have the time or the money to go to the AGM why dont you see if there is one person willing to go to represent your club. If every club had one representative the general opinion of average joe racer would be heard. I went to the agm. It was a 160 mile found trip. Next year they are hoping the AGM will be held at gaydon motor musesm. I believe this will include entry to the musesm. So more of a day can be made of it. If you feel passionate about the changes you want you will make the effort and find a way. I have no time for keyboard warriors. I work really hard to make things happen at my local club more than most people would ever do. Driving to the AGM is small fry.

[James]

If you dont have the time or the money to go to the AGM why dont you see if there is one person willing to go to represent your club. If every club had one representative the general opinion of average joe racer would be heard. I went to the agm. It was a 160 mile found trip. Next year they are hoping the AGM will be held at gaydon motor musesm. I believe this will include entry to the musesm. So more of a day can be made of it. If you feel passionate about the changes you want you will make the effort and find a way. I have no time for keyboard warriors. I work really hard to make things happen at my local club more than most people would ever do. Driving to the AGM is small fry.

:thumbsup: Well said Ash, going to the AGM was the easiest R/C thing I did all year :lol:

[mark christopher]

So you don't have any desire to move onwards and upwards and improve the hobby for everyone, you just want to argue the toss for as long as possible?

If that is the case then "pissing off the whole planet one person at a time" isn't far off!:thumbdown:

nope I said that because im happy with the system and procedures, if an issue arises I don't like, ill travel to a agm or egm, debate it (maybe I did not understand it properly and it needed explaining) and put my hand in the air when I need to, Simple...
im not the one moaning on here, im the one saying it how it is...

[Mowen208fly]

If you dont have the time or the money to go to the AGM why dont you see if there is one person willing to go to represent your club. If every club had one representative the general opinion of average joe racer would be heard. I went to the agm. It was a 160 mile found trip. Next year they are hoping the AGM will be held at gaydon motor musesm. I believe this will include entry to the musesm. So more of a day can be made of it. If you feel passionate about the changes you want you will make the effort and find a way. I have no time for keyboard warriors. I work really hard to make things happen at my local club more than most people would ever do. Driving to the AGM is small fry.

+1 on the well said Ashley !

300 miles round trip for me and the Agm was very good lots of info on hand :thumbsup:

[MattW]

So is the outlet different from the distributor? If so the effects are twofold:

Firstly it ensures that Hobbyking can never submit their batteries for approval because they supply UK customers directly from their UK warehouse (thank God).

Secondly it guarantees any battery on the EB list will be overpriced in the UK compared to the amount it would sell for in the USA or Europe because the distributor has to take their cut.

So if that is indeed the case then the whole thing stinks, it's a price cartel like I said on page 9. Plus the fact, as well as ensuring that the customer pays more, it also makes the supply chain inefficient.

Sorry, no idea - I'd suggest you ask the BRCA electric board that question. I just saw something posted up that I didn't recall reading last time I looked at the rules. One thing I do know is that "Balls out" Lipo's are from MB models - and not sure if they're available anywhere else. Same goes for Demon Products (although not sure if Demon have any current legal batteries, although they certainly have had).

[HOTSHOT III]

nope I said that because im happy with the system and procedures, if an issue arises I don't like, ill travel to a agm or egm, debate it (maybe I did not understand it properly and it needed explaining) and put my hand in the air when I need to, Simple...
im not the one moaning on here, im the one saying it how it is...

TBH that's a fair comment Mark, it's a long way for me from sunny Bournemouth but I do feel strongly about the issues I raised and would consider coming to next year's AGM.

If you don't like something and want to change it you have to make it happen;)

Can you tell me what is the best way to find out when/where it will be held?

[mark christopher]

If you dont have the time or the money to go to the AGM why dont you see if there is one person willing to go to represent your club. If every club had one representative the general opinion of average joe racer would be heard. I went to the agm. It was a 160 mile found trip. Next year they are hoping the AGM will be held at gaydon motor musesm. I believe this will include entry to the musesm. So more of a day can be made of it. fry.

TBH that's a fair comment Mark, it's a long way for me from sunny Bournemouth but I do feel strongly about the issues I raised and would consider coming to next year's AGM.

If you don't like something and want to change it you have to make it happen;)

Can you tell me what is the best way to find out when/where it will be held?

Allways on the BRCA website www.brca.org (http://www.brca.org), think there looking at the 3rd week in October, but it is usually the last sunday.
http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/

[HOTSHOT III]

Allways on the BRCA website www.brca.org (http://www.brca.org), think there looking at the 3rd week in October, but it is usually the last sunday.
http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/

Thanks, might see you there :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Neil Skull]

"For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee."

I have to laugh at this, I don't know whats more offensive being called a yes man, likened to communism or likened to Mark Christopher:thumbsup:

The reason I have an opinion on this is i do follow the rules, We are in the business of selling Lipos, we pay import duty and all the other cost's for importing dangerous goods into the UK. When people get goods smuggled into the country and don't pay what they should by law it does annoy me. Its not fair and it affects my business. The BRCA advocate the correct and Legal selling of goods into the UK. For Insurance purposes alone the cost of the paper trail is big. You buy from HK you don't have the peace of mind and you are robbing this country of taxes due by law! Shame on you who live the life of criminals ! i also expect you buy cheap DVD from the Chinese man from the pub! and don't understand how that affects people like Blockbuster!!! all you are doing is taken money from UK People and giving to Charlie Chan!!!!:p

[dicky14]

:thumbsup: This thread is awesome, maybe it should be scripted into a film. God i'm crying with laughter at some of the posts. Keep it going guys, film 4 may be getting in contact pmsl

[Chris56]

+ 1 on that Rich - lets keep it alive!

[Chris56]

And for the record - HK do not smuggle their goods into the UK, if they did you would only be able to buy them through the window of a blacked out car in a back alley using the code word "dead nimh geeza"!!!!. I too have an opinion on this as I am sick of being ripped off. Why pay £80 + for a 120A esc when I can get a Turnigy one from HK, from their uk warehouse with all taxes paid, that is the same quality for £30. It is sad when UK businesses struggle, but the fact is that the market is are changing. Also also, when you refer to people who don't buy from you as criminals, or refer to far-east retailers as "Charlie Chan", it kinda puts people off buying from you.

I've probably just upset every uk retailer by saying this!

[Neil Skull]

And for the record - HK do not smuggle their goods into the UK, if they did you would only be able to buy them through the window of a blacked out car in a back alley using the code word "dead nimh geeza"!!!!. I too have an opinion on this as I am sick of being ripped off. Why pay £80 + for a 120A esc when I can get a Turnigy one from HK, from their uk warehouse with all taxes paid, that is the same quality for £30. It is sad when UK businesses struggle, but the fact is that the market is are changing. Also also, when you refer to people who don't buy from you as criminals, or refer to far-east retailers as "Charlie Chan", it kinda puts people off buying from you.

I've probably just upset every uk retailer by saying this!

Sorry I need to Clarify, when I say HK I mean Hong Kong!!!! I still think very few people pay import duty on goods from overseas.
And for the record Charlie Chan is the bloke who sells DVD at our pub!

if you don't like being ripped off from paying taxes in this country, you need to stand for PM (that's prime Minister not private message) or bunk in with CC (Charlie Chan) the only taxes he pays is to the barman who lets him in every Friday night!

[dazp83]

At least you're honest and say the list is there for your business purposes. Found a brca thing on Facebook the other day and this thread was being discussed on there. 100% seemed to back the list, so I'll just keep doing the series I do and not worry about what equipment I have for regs. More fun that way

[Chris56]

Sorry I need to Clarify, when I say HK I mean Hong Kong!!!!

Ah ok - thats fair enough.

I do spend a lot of money in UK hobby shops but I do order some things from HK - mostly Tamiya/3racing stuff you can't get in the UK.

Why stand for PM when you can have good old rant on here:woot:

[HOTSHOT III]

"For me the biggest problem here is not the extra £20 for an "approved" LiPo pack but the behaviour of "yes men" like Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, trying to bully and intimidate people into towing the party line and signing up to what amounts to a price cartel. Looking back through history, all corrupt systems of government have relied on people like these two to basically go out into the general population and put the boot in to anyone who disagrees with the party line. Hitler had the Gestapo, Stalin had the KGB, and we get Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee."

I have to laugh at this, I don't know whats more offensive being called a yes man, likened to communism or likened to Mark Christopher:thumbsup:

The reason I have an opinion on this is i do follow the rules, We are in the business of selling Lipos, we pay import duty and all the other cost's for importing dangerous goods into the UK. When people get goods smuggled into the country and don't pay what they should by law it does annoy me. Its not fair and it affects my business. The BRCA advocate the correct and Legal selling of goods into the UK. For Insurance purposes alone the cost of the paper trail is big. You buy from HK you don't have the peace of mind and you are robbing this country of taxes due by law! Shame on you who live the life of criminals ! i also expect you buy cheap DVD from the Chinese man from the pub! and don't understand how that affects people like Blockbuster!!! all you are doing is taken money from UK People and giving to Charlie Chan!!!!:p

Who said anything about communism? I likened you to totalitarianism which is completely different, and furthermore you have shown yourself to be a totalitarian by threatening to shop people to the "authority's". Maybe you should read George Orwell's "Nineteen-Eighty-Four".

It's a very revealing thing to treat your fellow human being in this way and i'm afraid it does indeed make you a yes man, because you've shown you're willing to drop someone in it in order to be a small cog in a big (corrupt) machine.

Plus the fact, if it makes you that angry and if you really have that much of a desire to go out and bring to justice someone who has "robbed this country of taxes" I can think of 600 scumbags in Westminster who between them have defrauded you and I of more money than a few blokes going racing on a Sunday ever will. You're legally entitled to go straight down there and make a citizen's arrest.

TBH I can (up to a point) see what you're saying about not being able to compete with Hong Kong on price but I can't help thinking some of it is greed on the part of the UK importers, I mean how can what is effectively the same thing be 3 times the price? It's ridiculous. You're getting all offended now people are finding ways round it but before globalisation came along you and many others were happy to rip us off year in and year out!

As others have said I spend a lot of money in UK model shops. Many of them are 1st class and run by nice people but the shops are as much victims as we are because there are items like motors, batteries and ESCs where, compared to buying Hobbyking stuff from the UK warehouse, the markup makes buying it just plain unrealistic. If the UK importers and retailers set retail prices at sensible levels there would be more people willing to try the sport in the 1st place, grids would be full at the tracks on Sundays and the industry would make more money.

[DCM]

And for the record - HK do not smuggle their goods into the UK, if they did you would only be able to buy them through the window of a blacked out car in a back alley using the code word "dead nimh geeza"!!!!. I too have an opinion on this as I am sick of being ripped off. Why pay £80 + for a 120A esc when I can get a Turnigy one from HK, from their uk warehouse with all taxes paid, that is the same quality for £30. It is sad when UK businesses struggle, but the fact is that the market is are changing. Also also, when you refer to people who don't buy from you as criminals, or refer to far-east retailers as "Charlie Chan", it kinda puts people off buying from you.

I've probably just upset every uk retailer by saying this!

No, I disagree, you do NOT get the same quality as most of the more expensive ones, I have been involved in testing and trust me, there is a BIG difference, also, when you buy Turnigy, what you are buying is technology developed by others and paid for by them, then, hopefully, Turnigy are buying their prodcut from HobbWing etc under their spec but you are NOT getting the same 'quality' as others. This is esc (so spec of the FETS and other components), motors (gause rating of the rotor for starters, how compressed the material is on the rotor etc), batteries (density of the polymer layer, quality control etc).

What you do see now though is that the electronics you are now buying is SO GOOD that even the cheap stuff is sufficient for 95% of RC owners, whereas even 5 years ago you had no choice but to buy the good stuff to go racing.

As for buying from Hong Kong, you take your risk, I bought most of my Tamiya stuff from there in the past, paid import duty on most of it to. The main reason being that the local distributor was and still is SHIT, prohibitively over expensive and never had stock, it got better when the exchange rate dropped and Tamiya put in place a Global Pricing Policy.

And Neil Skull, most definitely the worst is being likened to Mark Christopher :thumbsup:

[Chris56]

yhanks for the insight DCM. My last esc before buying the Turnigy one was a 5 year old Speed Passion so they were probably on-parr. Despite the quality not being the same, it is still really good however.

On the Tamiya front, I totally feel what you are saying - buying kits in the UK is fairly straightforward, but getting spares/hop-ups can be an expensive nightmare in the UK! I have been a real fan of the 3racing products but that inevitably means buying through HK.

[DCM]

3Racing and other parts are readily available in the UK.

As for the electrics, unless you are pushing on or can feel differences in power delivery etc, then you can get away with the cheaper end, but just remember that they are either a) buying the product from someone like HobbyWing or b) due to Chinese lack of copyright, blatantly copying a product. What you don't get with Turnigy is the constant development/deefback which gives us such high class ESC's that we have now where even the ones aimed at the club racer are sufficient for most purposes that they are used in.

Hope that maybe answers your questions about cost, quality and development. I.E. Turnigy limit cost by reducing quality and neglecting development but you still get a reasonable product in your hand.

[BazzerH]

going way off topic here but half the moaning re the brca EB is price. Just did a quick price comparison on a schumacher mi5evo..

amain hobbies £312
schumacher uk price £380

try doing the same on some batteries.......

rip off britain

[dazp83]

Yeah but that's to do with exchange rate etc, they do pay three dollars for a gallon of petrol though.

[DCM]

going way off topic here but half the moaning re the brca EB is price. Just did a quick price comparison on a schumacher mi5evo..

amain hobbies £312
schumacher uk price £380

try doing the same on some batteries.......

rip off britain

Right, I hate these SKEWED comparisons.... you are comparing the price from a wholesale retail outlet in America and the manufacturers quoted RRP...... not really fair.

MB Models, first Google search, £339.99.

Yes, more expensive BUT, I can GUARANTEE YOU, by the time you pay shipping, import duty, VAT and handling charge...... you will be paying MORE than the £380 RRP.

[cutting42]

Yeah but that's to do with exchange rate etc, they do pay three dollars for a gallon of petrol though.

Closer to $4 and don't forget a US gallon is only 3.6 litres compared to a UK gallon at 4.5 litres.

Still cheaper though thanks to lower taxation.

[dazp83]

It fell below three dollars last week and yes it will be lower octane rating than here bla bla but the statement is true.

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/

[Neil Skull]

Who said anything about communism? I likened you to totalitarianism which is completely different, and furthermore you have shown yourself to be a totalitarian by threatening to shop people to the "authority's". Maybe you should read George Orwell's "Nineteen-Eighty-Four".

It's a very revealing thing to treat your fellow human being in this way and i'm afraid it does indeed make you a yes man, because you've shown you're willing to drop someone in it in order to be a small cog in a big (corrupt) machine.

Plus the fact, if it makes you that angry and if you really have that much of a desire to go out and bring to justice someone who has "robbed this country of taxes" I can think of 600 scumbags in Westminster who between them have defrauded you and I of more money than a few blokes going racing on a Sunday ever will. You're legally entitled to go straight down there and make a citizen's arrest.

TBH I can (up to a point) see what you're saying about not being able to compete with Hong Kong on price but I can't help thinking some of it is greed on the part of the UK importers, I mean how can what is effectively the same thing be 3 times the price? It's ridiculous. You're getting all offended now people are finding ways round it but before globalisation came along you and many others were happy to rip us off year in and year out!

As others have said I spend a lot of money in UK model shops. Many of them are 1st class and run by nice people but the shops are as much victims as we are because there are items like motors, batteries and ESCs where, compared to buying Hobbyking stuff from the UK warehouse, the markup makes buying it just plain unrealistic. If the UK importers and retailers set retail prices at sensible levels there would be more people willing to try the sport in the 1st place, grids would be full at the tracks on Sundays and the industry would make more money.

I take it from your response you do buy DVD from Charlie?:blush:

[HOTSHOT III]

I take it from your response you do buy DVD from Charlie?:blush:

You don't appear to have understood my post on any level. I simply stated that although I buy most of my stuff in the UK, I cannot and will not pay absurdly inflated prices for certain items and so I instead source equivalents from the Hobbyking UK warehouse.

On occasion I have purchased from Hong Kong or the USA and even after paying all customs charges (and thereby not breaking any laws) I have found myself making massive savings compared to buying from the UK so I can only conclude from this that there are instances where the UK buying public are being fleeced.

BTW if you want to take the moral high ground and call people criminals for saving a few quid you might be advised to stop referring to the Chinese person in your local pub as "Charlie Chan" as this could in these politically correct (i.e totalitarian) times be perceived as a racist comment. I personally would never stoop so low as to go squealing to the Thought Police about this but, as we have seen, there are those among us who would ;-) :blush:

[HOTSHOT III]

going way off topic here but half the moaning re the brca EB is price. Just did a quick price comparison on a schumacher mi5evo..

amain hobbies £312
schumacher uk price £380

try doing the same on some batteries.......

rip off britain

Right, I hate these SKEWED comparisons.... you are comparing the price from a wholesale retail outlet in America and the manufacturers quoted RRP...... not really fair.

MB Models, first Google search, £339.99.

Yes, more expensive BUT, I can GUARANTEE YOU, by the time you pay shipping, import duty, VAT and handling charge...... you will be paying MORE than the £380 RRP.

Actually I think that this is an excellent comparison and it's completely relevant to this discussion. Surely buying an Mi5 directly from the manufacturer, in the country where it was made, should cost less than someone on the other side of the world buying the same thing after all shipping and import costs have been paid and the US importer, distributor and retailer have taken their cut?

The fact that MB Models (who BTW are an excellent shop) are selling them for £40 less than the people who are making the things in the 1st place is again very revealing, I mean MB must be making some money otherwise they wouldn't bother selling the kits so that means if the UK buying public buy from Schumacher directly that's an extra £40+ going straight in someone's pocket. Buying directly from the manufacturer should be cheaper than anywhere.

For me it's not the extra money but the principle. To build and race RC cars requires a good deal more intelligence than the average bloke down the pub and the industry would be wise to remember this. This is an insult to the intelligence of the buying public in this country!

[200sx]

Do the twenty or so AGM attendees have a vested interest in keeping the EB list? e.g. employees of manufacturers, distributors, importers etc.

If indeed they are, then 'cartel' is a good word to describe them.

[dazp83]

I would be very surprised if the people at the agm weren't selling or profiting in some way sponsored etc. But as I said theres a lot of support for the list on the brca Facebook page. And we're hiding behind our computers and not using our real names? Obviously whoever submitted the proposal and then retracted had the thumb screws applied. And it's been admitted on here the list is for profit reasons and then suddenly hk means Hong long not hobbyking. Can smell it from here

[cutting42]

It fell below three dollars last week and yes it will be lower octane rating than here bla bla but the statement is true.

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/

Yeah, just being picky ;-) I fill up near airports and it is always nearly $4 currently, over $6 in Washington DC recently.

Your point stands however

[Mowen208fly]

I would be very surprised if the people at the agm weren't selling or profiting in some way sponsored etc. But as I said theres a lot of support for the list on the brca Facebook page. And we're hiding behind our computers and not using our real names? Obviously whoever submitted the proposal and then retracted had the thumb screws applied. And it's been admitted on here the list is for profit reasons and then suddenly hk means Hong long not hobbyking. Can smell it from here

I was at the AGM and I sell Toyota car parts so no selling and yes I am sponsored but have never never been told what to vote for at a AGM and never would be by current sponser! My name is Martin Owen and always happy to give my real name! It amazes me that those that were not at the meeting seem to know everything about it :thumbsup: I drove 300 miles that day to give my opinion and vote!

[Chris56]

I've just had a look at that BRCA FB page, "bashers trying to change the rules" hahaha!

I have never considered the BRCA elitist - until now!

"Will someone please explain to me, in simple terms, why anybody runs r/c meetings with dipsticks like them around"

Well Im involved in running a successful monthly event that plenty of top drivers turn up to. Most of my friends there do thin im a dipstick but they also appreciate the fact that im there building and mending the track, booking people in, packing away etc

"Would that be the same people who voluntarily run clubs for the benefit of the clubs members and the hobby/sport in general to?"

Woo-hoo - a comment I actually agree with!!!

"Oh, I love it, time to stir things up! a la Mr Christopher of old ! lol"

I've never met you mr Skull, but when I do im going to buy you a beer (and Charlie Chan if he's about!!!). You are one of us!

[dicky14]

I've just had a look at that BRCA FB page, "bashers trying to change the rules" hahaha!

I have never considered the BRCA elitist - until now!

"Will someone please explain to me, in simple terms, why anybody runs r/c meetings with dipsticks like them around"

Well Im involved in running a successful monthly event that plenty of top drivers turn up to. Most of my friends there do thin im a dipstick but they also appreciate the fact that im there building and mending the track, booking people in, packing away etc

"Would that be the same people who voluntarily run clubs for the benefit of the clubs members and the hobby/sport in general to?"

Woo-hoo - a comment I actually agree with!!!

"Oh, I love it, time to stir things up! a la Mr Christopher of old ! lol"

I've never met you mr Skull, but when I do im going to buy you a beer (and Charlie Chan if he's about!!!). You are one of us!

And i can second that, a very successful monthly meeting attended
by some of the countries top racers, as for batteries and electrics I conform to the BRCA list as does my sons car, but what people have to realise is, we are all big kids playing with toy cars.:p

[dazp83]

Okay so please could you put an end to the various reasons for the list? Because we've had safety and performance and then for sales. Or is it all? Yeah that brca thing on Facebook made me laugh, but I'd be gutted if id spent £50 on a shorty and suddenly £25 hobbyking ones were okay. I didn't even know things could be voted for and changed, wasnt aware of the procedures till I saw this thread. And why would bashers care about brca rules? And I'm Darren Pollard

[milesallen]

Would it not be a lot simpler to put the voting online, everyone login with their BRCA number, have their vote then accept the results, save people travelling up and down the country and those not able to get there, maybe younger members, then everyone has had the opportunity to vote even if they didn't attend. 1 member one vote and all that. The committee set the motions or even put them up to the vote.

Nearly 2015 the internet and has been with us for sometime now, I'm sure it's simple enough to do, the AGM could be shown as a webinar. so all could watch and listen.

Out here in the real world thats's what happens save people travelling all over the place and save the planet a bit.

Only a suggestion, then all have had the chance to vote than those able to attend.

Simplz!

[Mowen208fly]

:bored:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

This thread !

[mark christopher]

Would it not be a lot simpler to put the voting online, everyone login with their BRCA number, have their vote then accept the results, save people travelling up and down the country and those not able to get there, maybe younger members, then everyone has had the opportunity to vote even if they didn't attend. 1 member one vote and all that. The committee set the motions or even put them up to the vote.

Nearly 2015 the internet and has been with us for sometime now, I'm sure it's simple enough to do, the AGM could be shown as a webinar. so all could watch and listen.

Out here in the real world thats's what happens save people travelling all over the place and save the planet a bit.

Only a suggestion, then all have had the chance to vote than those able to attend.

Simplz!


LOL and round we go again....

[Chris56]

And i can second that, a very successful monthly meeting attended
by some of the countries top racers, as for batteries and electrics I conform to the BRCA list as does my sons car, but what people have to realise is, we are all big kids playing with toy cars.:p

Thanks for that kind comment Rich - top driver and top bloke!

Your last sentence sums it up for me:thumbsup:

[Chris56]

LOL and round we go again....

So when is the AGM? are there any proposals?:confused:

[HOTSHOT III]

Would it not be a lot simpler to put the voting online, everyone login with their BRCA number, have their vote then accept the results, save people travelling up and down the country and those not able to get there, maybe younger members, then everyone has had the opportunity to vote even if they didn't attend. 1 member one vote and all that. The committee set the motions or even put them up to the vote.

Nearly 2015 the internet and has been with us for sometime now, I'm sure it's simple enough to do, the AGM could be shown as a webinar. so all could watch and listen.

Out here in the real world thats's what happens save people travelling all over the place and save the planet a bit.

Only a suggestion, then all have had the chance to vote than those able to attend.

Simplz!

All sounds good to me, although I agreed with Mark Christopher that it would be a good idea for me to attend next year's AGM this would be a lot simpler. Also in the age of the internet, would it be possible for the BRCA to have its own forum so issues such as this can be discussed prior to a vote?

BTW for anyone on the BRCA Facebook page referring to me as a keyboard warrior, I don't have any problem at all with you knowing my real identity.

My name is Alex Guiver and I race a Kyosho RB6 at TORCH near Southampton.

[dicky14]

Lipos don't just catch fire, end of. Its the user charging and discharging at stupid rates that cause problems:thumbdown:. And also crap electrical installs. Who can honestly say that they have had a lipo fire due to charging at 1c.

And I am Richard Stain.:thumbsup:

[dazp83]

Yeah and if the brca heavies have a problem they can find me at herts nitro in ware or stotfold or three counties in mk. :thumbsup:

[Chris56]

The obviously do have a problem Darren - I just tried to get onto their FB page to see if they have commented on this thread further, only to see it has now become a "closed group"!

Somebody was obviously getting worried that one of us "bashers" was going to post something in response to their offensive comments.

[Rich D]

And I'm the one who put the comment about bashers trying to change the rules for people who wish to compete ( you missed that part ). Bashers being the term that has been adopted by hobbyists of our sport who don't take racing too seriously. It's not intended as a derogatory term, each to their own. But I stand by my comment. My name is in my sig. Unlike most people here ;)

[Chris56]

Thanks for your post Rich, I have seen you about at various meets and you do seem a decent chap - you obviously do a lot for the BRCA and the hobby in general.

I've always associated the term "basher" with "bashing" - aka messing around with the car in a parking lot rather than racing, we all race on this site which is why I found that term offensive.

We may not all compete at your level but we still enjoy having a good, serious fair race without worrying about what electrics your opponent has or whether they are on some list.

As it has already been stated, we are just playing with expensive toy cars at the end of the day, at thats the same for whether you are in carpark, club night or A-final of a National

[Rich D]

I don't do anything for the BRCA to be honest Chris. We are all the BRCA collectively as members.

I know we all like to keep costs down but this lipo argument has got a bit silly. If this was a thread about how many compounds tread patterns manufacturers etc of tyres i perhaps would understand where people are coming from regarding expense a bit better.

I think it's a matter of following rules that others have implemented much like people do when they follow the rules you lay down at your own meetings.

No hard feelings anyway.

[dazp83]

Haha that's funny Chris, I'd love to see what they're saying now. But I doubt I'd be allowed in now, after all us heathens with our reasonably priced products aren't as good as others who spend double the amount. Haha. I'd quite like to do the regionals next year, seems a shame I'd have to buy all new equipment to do so.

[dazp83]

Ha blimey that sounds like a response from the ussr

[peetbee]

. I didn't even know things could be voted for and changed, wasnt aware of the procedures till I saw this thread. And why would bashers care about brca rules? And I'm Darren Pollard

Darren, are you actually a member of the BRCA?
I only ask because if you are, then it means you've never read any of the rules available on the BRCA website, nor included in the handbook issued to every member.

Do you think you could have a read of them please, after all, when you joined the BRCA you agreed to comply with those same rules. Hopefully you'll find most of your answers there.
But, please remember the BRCA committee members are volunteers giving up their spare time and they are bound by those same rules. If we as members don't like it then we as members can change it. In fact I even helped word a proposal for a couple of people who posted on this same topic, but they decided not to propose it for some reason.
Pete Belsten
Secretary of Caldicot RC Racers
An ordinary BRCA member (the same as you)

[dazp83]

Yeah fully paid up member, can supply number upon request. And I had a good look through it but can't say I took it all In. Anyway as I said ages ago next year hopefully the vote will change it so no more list.

[peetbee]

No problem, don't forget, proposals have to be submitted prior to the agm, the date normally goes on to the brca website to give notice.
I'd recommend that the rationale you give for the proposed change is given as much, if not more thought to try to answer as many questions as you can think of in it.
BTW, I've never been to a BRCA agm either! :blush: