should the brca abandon the electric board homologation list?

[BazzerH]

Just to gauge public opinion, a poll! :drool:

[cmgreen]

We need this so we are sure that the product we buy is safe

[Dudders]

We need this so we are sure that the product we buy is safe

Irrelevant.

[cmgreen]

Ha way then explain..................

That's what I thought it was there for, so we dont buy Chinese rubbish

[Dudders]

You best read another thread then

[Peakey]

I can see this thread going on just like the other lol

[dazp83]

Why not stick to the products you know then? And maybe disable comments on this poll.

[cmgreen]

You best read another thread then

Can't be arsed fella.......

Looks like it going nowere anyway!

Not gonna change a good thing

[cutting42]

I vote yes but would not want a free for all. Suggest setting a series of size and construction limits to avoid custom sizes and cars built for weird and wonderful layouts.

Stick, Saddle, Shortie and Square hard case covers it for now. Can always add more if new sizes come out and are adopted just as square and shortie have been.

[DCM]

I vote yes but would not want a free for all. Suggest setting a series of size and construction limits to avoid custom sizes and cars built for weird and wonderful layouts.

Stick, Saddle, Shortie and Square hard case covers it for now. Can always add more if new sizes come out and are adopted just as square and shortie have been.

I believe there is already a construction rule for said batteries, maximum height, width and length.....

Ha way then explain..................

That's what I thought it was there for, so we dont buy Chinese rubbish

They are ALL made in China..... or around there.....

[BazzerH]

I started this poll out of interest to see some numbers. I voted yes to abandon the lists but not because of some paranoia concerning the brca taking backhanders or running a cartel (really?) But just because I think its outdated and unnecessary. If a lipo is bought in this country it's already gone through quite a few safety checks and is fit for purpose ie being strapped in an rc vehicle and driven at high speed. As for someone designing some fancy new car mid season that will win everything but only with weird shaped batteries....don't think so.
I cant even see how if one manufacturer came up with some amazing new tech that gave massive performance gains how that would matter much. We've already got too much performance for the class, and as far as I know (heard it down the pub) all our lipos come from 2 mega factories in China and rc companies just put their own stickers on them?

This poll was in no way to stick the knife in the brca, or those who were at the agm, and especially not against those very hard working enthusiastic club runners and brca officials. We all need rules at the end of the day, be no fun otherwise!

[dwp102]

We need this so we are sure that the product we buy is safe

Will somebody please think of the children! !!

[dwp102]

I vote yes but would not want a free for all. Suggest setting a series of size and construction limits to avoid custom sizes and cars built for weird and wonderful layouts.

Stick, Saddle, Shortie and Square hard case covers it for now. Can always add more if new sizes come out and are adopted just as square and shortie have been.

I think we are past that point tbh

[danDanEFC]

Oh chatting with my wife on this hot topic. Her view was...

"I have a large pile of grips here, if any of your toy car friends would like to borrow one"

Also a wise man once said to me

"Don't moan about another person doing a job you wouldn't do yourself"

[SlowOne]

I vote yes but would not want a free for all. Suggest setting a series of size and construction limits to avoid custom sizes and cars built for weird and wonderful layouts.

Stick, Saddle, Shortie and Square hard case covers it for now. Can always add more if new sizes come out and are adopted just as square and shortie have been.That is exactly what we have now. Read the EB rules - that's all they are.

Free for all, eh? You mean that when you buy another car you are happy to buy another shape cell to go with it? And when you get pasted at the club by someone who has just bought a new cell that is bigger than the one you have and has more capacity to their car is faster for longer, you're happy to keep being new cells?

You don't think that happens? Use a motor four years old and tell us it is still competitive. Use tyres from 2009 and tell me they are still giving the same grip. Yes, cell capacity and quality has gone up, but without a set of case sizes they would be now be in the stratosphere.

You may say that no one would keep buying cells, but they keep buying everything else when the other guy at the club has one! Stick to the list and keep your purchases down!

[cutting42]

I believe there is already a construction rule for said batteries, maximum height, width and length.....


Great, then I am happy :D

[Cockerill]

Great, then I am happy :D

Yep, it's EB rule 3.2, the exact thing you're happy to lose...

Out of interest, those that wish to see the EB list abolished, is this in it's entirety? Just certain elements of it? If so, which elements? Or just so that you can use your cheap Lipo's that aren't currently on the list?

[terry.sc]

should the brca abandon the electric board homologation list?A simple answer to this, no we shouldn't abandon all the lists. It ensures a level playing field in touring car, WorldGT, LMP12 and GT12.

The Electric Board hasn't been created for 1/10 offroad and just because a few buggy racers want to use batteries not on the homologation list doesn't mean every other class has to stop using it leading to the battery and motor of the month situation again, which is what would happen if the homologation list itself was abandoned. If you are running in a motor limited class, like most on road classes do, if a manufacturer brings out a new lipo with a higher capacity then to be competitive you would need to buy it as it will give you a higher average voltage during your race, so more speed. Another battery comes out next month, then you end up buying it to replace last months battery. This is why the lists came about in the first place.

As has been said again and again, this mythical "BRCA" isn't a dictatorship, no one can change the rules without the agreement of the ordinary members. That's you, me and everyone who is reading this who is a BRCA member.
http://australianclimatemadness.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/flogging_dead_horse_what1.jpg





For the off road section to stop using the EB lists that are for every section to use is a different question entirely, and the opportunity has just passed. Considering how little time it takes to put in a proposal compared with the time spent moaning about no one else doing it for you, maybe some time spent reading the BRCA constitution in the handbook would teach everyone how to go about changing things, and someone might have put in a proper proposal and people turned up to vote for it at the AGM.

(http://australianclimatemadness.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/flogging_dead_horse_what1.jpg)

[cutting42]

That is exactly what we have now. Read the EB rules - that's all they are.

Yes so DCM said, I would want to keep that section whilst getting rid of the list.

Free for all, eh? You mean that when you buy another car you are happy to buy another shape cell to go with it? And when you get pasted at the club by someone who has just bought a new cell that is bigger than the one you have and has more capacity to their car is faster for longer, you're happy to keep being new cells?

You don't think that happens? Use a motor four years old and tell us it is still competitive. Use tyres from 2009 and tell me they are still giving the same grip. Yes, cell capacity and quality has gone up, but without a set of case sizes they would be now be in the stratosphere.

You may say that no one would keep buying cells, but they keep buying everything else when the other guy at the club has one! Stick to the list and keep your purchases down!

I am a bit confused what you are getting at here. I only know the off road world so maybe I am missing your point. I don't care what anyone buys really. I use a mix of old and new gear. I am just as fast with any of it, yeah the older batteries can't do two competitive heats in one charge any more but they are fine for one or as a practice pack.

I guess my main issue is there seems little real reason behind having the list. Many other sections don't have it. It does not control costs it just gives a little traceability and it adds a whole lot of admin and confusion.

End of the day, I don't care that much, I will buy decent stuff anyway and it is not a big issue to make sure its on the list but it does seem bureaucratic so I voted Yes!

[dazp83]

I'm pretty sure different cars use various shape n sized batteries. And with five minute heats and finals i cant see much need for a cap or anything on batteries.
The 1/8 ebuggy nationals do fine without a list on any equipment

[cutting42]

Yep, it's EB rule 3.2, the exact thing you're happy to lose...

Out of interest, those that wish to see the EB list abolished, is this in it's entirety? Just certain elements of it? If so, which elements? Or just so that you can use your cheap Lipo's that aren't currently on the list?

I looked it up after DCM's post. It is a part of that section currently but there is no reason why it needs to stay that way. The OP question was to lose the list, not the section. I appreciate I am being slightly pedantic :p

To answer the question, I say lose the need for a specific list. Set the rules generically such as size, format so batteries need to pass physically.

[Cockerill]

Yes so DCM said, I would want to keep that section whilst getting rid of the list.



I am a bit confused what you are getting at here. I only know the off road world so maybe I am missing your point. I don't care what anyone buys really. I use a mix of old and new gear. I am just as fast with any of it, yeah the older batteries can't do two competitive heats in one charge any more but they are fine for one or as a practice pack.

I guess my main issue is there seems little real reason behind having the list. Many other sections don't have it. It does not control costs it just gives a little traceability and it adds a whole lot of admin and confusion.

End of the day, I don't care that much, I will buy decent stuff anyway and it is not a big issue to make sure its on the list but it does seem bureaucratic so I voted Yes!

Currently in off-road battery power isn't a problem... However, let's say races are extended to 8 minutes in 2 years time, and there's no EB list. Your old batteries won't make 8 mins so you go out and buy some new ones, they're much better, you can do a warmup lap, drive carefully and make 8 mins. Two weeks later a new battery comes out, your mate gets one and can drive 110% and just about make 8 mins, you have to have one/two/four, buy some, great! A month later another battery comes out, you can now do 3 warm up laps, drive 110% and last 8 mins. Guess what, time to buy some more batteries :thumbsup:

As it is at the minute, manufacturers know new cells have to be homologated, so they all arrive to market about the same time and are the same for 12 months, no battery of the month war. As I said elsewhere, the rules may seem outdated at the moment, but the foundations will ensure a much better market for the consumer should things change. And yes it does control cost, as there's a maximum price limit ;)

[cutting42]

The Electric Board hasn't been created for 1/10 offroad

snip

For the off road section to stop using the EB lists that are for every section to use is a different question entirely, and the opportunity has just passed.


Hands up guv, I am fairly new to this and come from just the off road world and understand your point.

All my points were from the off road perspective maybe the poll should be rerun as:

"Do off road racers want exemption from the EB Homologation list" which as you say is a different question.

[Cockerill]

I looked it up after DCM's post. It is a part of that section currently but there is no reason why it needs to stay that way. The OP question was to lose the list, not the section. I appreciate I am being slightly pedantic :p

To answer the question, I say lose the need for a specific list. Set the rules generically such as size, format so batteries need to pass physically.

So before each race every cell has to measured? As it can't be a quick check to see if the part number appears on a 'list' as the list has gone ;) we're already short of scrutineering volunteers, so I'm sure the ones that do won't mind the extra work. And as mentioned above, whilst battery power isn't a limiting factor, if it does become a limiting factor again expect people to push the limits and beyond, as happened with NiMh cells towards the end of their use.

[dazp83]

So the list exists for a theoretical change in the future? Who's making batteries for brca rules as well? Are we centre of lipo market?

[Cockerill]

So the list exists for a theoretical change in the future? Who's making batteries for brca rules as well? Are we centre of lipo market?

I believe the list was created to help protect customers from battery of the month wars when batteries were a limiting factor of the class. These rules and foundations carried over to Lipo because they worked. The change is that Lipo is no longer a limiting factor of off-road racing. Who knows what will happen.

Many many many companies make lipo's for the BRCA rules, as they're the 99% similar to worldwide governing bodies rules, the main differences been in availability rules . As a collective of worldwide governing bodies I'd suggest that yes, they are the centre of the hobby car lipo market.

And yes, UK availability is important. Back in the day when you needed the best batteries, imagine if the ones you needed weren't available in the UK, and importing them was incredibly expensive? That'd be off putting to customers!

[cutting42]

Currently in off-road battery power isn't a problem... However, let's say races are extended to 8 minutes in 2 years time, and there's no EB list. Your old batteries won't make 8 mins so you go out and buy some new ones, they're much better, you can do a warmup lap, drive carefully and make 8 mins. Two weeks later a new battery comes out, your mate gets one and can drive 110% and just about make 8 mins, you have to have one/two/four, buy some, great! A month later another battery comes out, you can now do 3 warm up laps, drive 110% and last 8 mins. Guess what, time to buy some more batteries :thumbsup:

As it is at the minute, manufacturers know new cells have to be homologated, so they all arrive to market about the same time and are the same for 12 months, no battery of the month war. As I said elsewhere, the rules may seem outdated at the moment, but the foundations will ensure a much better market for the consumer should things change. And yes it does control cost, as there's a maximum price limit ;)

Some excellent points but they rely on putting off road into the same performance critical status as on road. It is a bit speculative as even a current shortie at 4500mah could easily do an 8 minute main with room to spare and saddles even more.

Being new (ish) to this I have never experienced a battery (or anything else) of the month war which it sounds like many of you have. I can see a picture in my head of racers hurling batteries across a race track at each other :D

[cutting42]

So before each race every cell has to measured? As it can't be a quick check to see if the part number appears on a 'list' as the list has gone ;) we're already short of scrutineering volunteers, so I'm sure the ones that do won't mind the extra work. And as mentioned above, whilst battery power isn't a limiting factor, if it does become a limiting factor again expect people to push the limits and beyond, as happened with NiMh cells towards the end of their use.

You'd just need three std boxes like the buggy box to check they fit, one for each battery format. The list is pretty huge with lots of very similar numbers, I would say dropping a battery in a sized box would be quicker ;)

[Cockerill]

Some excellent points but they rely on putting off road into the same performance critical status as on road. It is a bit speculative as even a current shortie at 4500mah could easily do an 8 minute main with room to spare and saddles even more.

Being new (ish) to this I have never experienced a battery (or anything else) of the month war which it sounds like many of you have. I can see a picture in my head of racers hurling batteries across a race track at each other :D

When I started my car would dump at 4m30s without fail... Highly frustrating, especially when others could do 2 warmup laps, drive 100% and still have power left.

I admit, the rules may seem outdated at the moment, but the reason for why they're there is solid, and will stop a similar poor situation arising in the future. The rules are there to help the customer based on previous experience.

[Si Coe]

Its worth pointing out that this whole 'different shaped pack' thing is a bit of a myth. It didn't exactly take long to approve shorties - which are unlike the dimensions for sticks and saddle not the same as 6 Sub C NiMH's. Now there are cars out which can only use shorties.
All above board, all approved.
The dimension rules can be changed and are when people want them to be.

As for other points -

Remember we are talking about 1/10th off road here. Thats a class where we presently have more power than we can put down on the track, with miles more duration than we need. The rise of the shorty itself proves that better packaging in the car is actually more important than the roughly 25% drop in capacity.
We don't need cell/motor/chassis of the week to be competitive in this class. It still happens but thats because we are all sheep that flock to buy the new shiny stuff.
Yes this would change if we shifted to a different racing format - but then that is the sort of thing we would need to consider before making such a move. The present 'anyone can have a much power as they can handle and still last a race' thing is one of 1/10th offroads biggest strengths right now and it would be a big risk moving away from that.


In the event of an incident no lawyer is going to care if the cells that caught fire are on the BRCA list or not, because the test procedure is not an officially recognised standard. There are recognised standards for lithium polymer batteries, and as mentioned in the other thread one of the 'tests' for being on the approved list is the presence of paperwork to show they met those standards. Right now that looks like a win for the list, but there are cells not on the list that also have met those standards. A court would see no legal difference between those two, so no the list is not 'safer'. It is an easy way to spot safe cells though.

[PaulUpton]

Has anyone even considered the insurance issue?

We all pay our membership to be covered by the BRCA, if there was no homologated list of LiPos, do you think the insurance company would pay out if someone got hurt but a LiPo fire.....

[Cockerill]

Its worth pointing out that this whole 'different shaped pack' thing is a bit of a myth. It didn't exactly take long to approve shorties - which are unlike the dimensions for sticks and saddle not the same as 6 Sub C NiMH's. Now there are cars out which can only use shorties.
All above board, all approved.
The dimension rules can be changed and are when people want them to be.



Not a myth at all... Designers would love the opportunity to design around a battery shape they want. They don't, because the rules don't allow it.

The dimensions didn't change to allow shorty's. When released they fit the dimensions laid out by the rules, as there are only maximum dimensions listed. However the approval process did ensure that they were available to all to use instead of just select drivers.

[Si Coe]

So as long as my new pack is smaller than a standard stick its OK?

OK I can only do this once a year due to homologation but its hardly protecting against needing new packs!

Also designers are rather restricted by the size of cells that lipos are made in. If you want a really odd sized cell you'd need it custom made and thats not going to be cheap. So to some extent dimensions are controlled by availability.

[terry.sc]

Has anyone even considered the insurance issue?

We all pay our membership to be covered by the BRCA, if there was no homologated list of LiPos, do you think the insurance company would pay out if someone got hurt but a LiPo fire.....
Yes, it was considered right at the start of the other thread.

Once again this is covered in your BRCA handbook in the section titled, not surprisingly, "Insurance and the RC Racer".

[MattW]

Someone humour me for a second. Wasn't there a proposal at the off road agm, held less than 2 weeks ago?? That was withdrawn or defeated??

[DCM]

Someone humour me for a second. Wasn't there a proposal at the off road agm, held less than 2 weeks ago?? That was withdrawn or defeated??

Internet news tells me it was withdrawn by the proposer, but the proposal was to drop the list for regionals not in it's entirity.

Tom is correct, back in the day, the list protected people from maybe 2 battery advances, maybe 3 in a year, 1700SCR's. then SCRC's then SCRC-SP's. but when SP's were on there, the urban myths about batteries with certain batch numbers were better than others were better..... I do think that now, off-road at least, the only advantage gained is by smaller cells allowing for better weight distribution.....

So, how did the shorty get cleared, simple, the stick packs dimensions are a mximum dimension.... the confusion comes that ROAR rules stipulate that a 4wd car must either hold a full size stick pack or saddle pack....

The list don't make a battery safer, give you insurance cover etc, especially at club.

[MattW]

Yes, I'd only seen it on internet news........

But it appears it went something like this (someone feel free to correct me if I get this section wrong). Someone thinks it's a good idea for regional's not to use the list, and proposes it (good man - he understands how this works). Then he goes to the AGM to present it and vote for it. While at the AGM, he decides it wasn't such a good idea after all, so withdraws it. Why he does this, we don't know unless you were there - I wasn't! Maybe it was discussed, and he started to understand why having a list is a good idea (this is why online voting won't work btw). So now what's happened - it seems that there are other people who thought the proposer was on to something. However, they didn't read the proposals / decided not to go to the AGM to support it and are generally a bit miffed about it all.

Personally, I fully understand the origins of the EB list, I was at the AGM at the Chesterfield hotel where the off road section elected to be a part of the EB and use their lists. I also remember a couple of years ago where having the list initially prevented saddle pack lipo's from being used as they didn't actually fit many cars - so the list prevented a situation where by some people were able to run lipo and some weren't. It forced the battery manufactures to produce cells that would actually fit into cars designed for saddle packs. Seems like a good thing to me.

[dwp102]

Yep, it's EB rule 3.2, the exact thing you're happy to lose...

Out of interest, those that wish to see the EB list abolished, is this in it's entirety? Just certain elements of it? If so, which elements? Or just so that you can use your cheap Lipo's that aren't currently on the list?

Use cheap lipos (that are peer reviewed and tested - and are known to be safe) that currently aren't on the list. It's management of the cells that is the problem not the cells themselves. I personally have swollen several sets because I have not worked out how to manage them correctly. Ideally you need 3 or 4 sets to ensure they are cold before recharging. If you want to run non stop :). That is 300 quid or 80 quid depending on your perspective. And if you puff a few sets up you could be easily spending 400 on batteries. Unnecessary.

[DaveG28]

Use cheap lipos (that are peer reviewed and tested - and are known to be safe) that currently aren't on the list. It's management of the cells that is the problem not the cells themselves. I personally have swollen several sets because I have not worked out how to manage them correctly. Ideally you need 3 or 4 sets to ensure they are cold before recharging. If you want to run non stop :). That is 300 quid or 80 quid depending on your perspective. And if you puff a few sets up you could be easily spending 400 on batteries. Unnecessary.

How do you know they are peer reviewed? Do you have to take print outs of forum posts by x people to the regional to show your lipo is peer reviewers and not a home made accident waiting to happen?

Then there's the sizes, you could have 3 boxes yeah, or you could, I guess, have a list?

Oh wait we do.

In reality is the complaint here not simply that no one likes the requirement regarding a number of UK stockings at retail? That's what's stopping the lipo's everyone wants off the list right?

[Origineelreclamebord]

I vote yes but would not want a free for all. Suggest setting a series of size and construction limits to avoid custom sizes and cars built for weird and wonderful layouts.

Stick, Saddle, Shortie and Square hard case covers it for now. Can always add more if new sizes come out and are adopted just as square and shortie have been.

+1: Sizes of components should be standardized (2S, certain sizes, 540 motor, etc) and the electronics should be suitable for the racing environment (things like a hard case and protection around as many as possible rotating and hot parts) - leave the rest to the companies and consumers to sort out.

Also, instead of a homologation list, you could apply a rule that if scrutineers don't trust the safety of your electronics, they are not approved to ensure everyone's safety. Sure this requires some guidelines so you can confidently travel to an event with only the set of electronics that's in your car, but consider this: Homologated electronics don't guarantee safety if they're not used well, and have some faith in it that the manufacturer doesn't want a reputation of injuring a high percentage of its users... so why use a homologation as your benchmark for safety? Fellow hobbyists working as scrutineers will be more than able to judge whether or not they would feel comfortable with a certain car near them in the pit area or when marshalling :)

As you might have noticed, I don't live in the UK... Where I live, the most used electronics are HobbyKing/Turnigy products. I don't consider scrutineers to be very critical about things, yet in my 3 years of racing I have seen only one LiPo fire because someone accidentally charged his battery pack at 3S - homologation wouldn't have prevented that, instead he would've just burnt away a more expensive battery :lol: Anyway, he noticed the case cracked during charging and he had time to carry it away from the pit area, where it had all the space to sizzle and smoke as hard as it could. Also I've seen 2 or 3 ESCs go up in smoke, but I've never witnessed a car burn down, a motor disintegrate or someone get injured from bad electronics.

So sure these electronics pack a punch, but in my eyes homologation will not prevent the few accidents that do happen. Just think about everyone's safety when working on your own electronics, watch each others' electronics and make sure there's a bucket of sand in the area to smother a LiPo fire!

[dazp83]

Yeah well said and its been said before other classes do just fine without a battery list or motors or esc.

[DCM]

I am getting confused as to whether people think the EB list is wrong (for what it is designed for, national and regional racing) or whether they think that the Off-Road section impose the list on anyone and everyone racing buggies?

[HOTSHOT III]

+1: Sizes of components should be standardized (2S, certain sizes, 540 motor, etc) and the electronics should be suitable for the racing environment (things like a hard case and protection around as many as possible rotating and hot parts) - leave the rest to the companies and consumers to sort out.

Also, instead of a homologation list, you could apply a rule that if scrutineers don't trust the safety of your electronics, they are not approved to ensure everyone's safety. Sure this requires some guidelines so you can confidently travel to an event with only the set of electronics that's in your car, but consider this: Homologated electronics don't guarantee safety if they're not used well, and have some faith in it that the manufacturer doesn't want a reputation of injuring a high percentage of its users... so why use a homologation as your benchmark for safety? Fellow hobbyists working as scrutineers will be more than able to judge whether or not they would feel comfortable with a certain car near them in the pit area or when marshalling :)

As you might have noticed, I don't live in the UK... Where I live, the most used electronics are HobbyKing/Turnigy products. I don't consider scrutineers to be very critical about things, yet in my 3 years of racing I have seen only one LiPo fire because someone accidentally charged his battery pack at 3S - homologation wouldn't have prevented that, instead he would've just burnt away a more expensive battery :lol: Anyway, he noticed the case cracked during charging and he had time to carry it away from the pit area, where it had all the space to sizzle and smoke as hard as it could. Also I've seen 2 or 3 ESCs go up in smoke, but I've never witnessed a car burn down, a motor disintegrate or someone get injured from bad electronics.

So sure these electronics pack a punch, but in my eyes homologation will not prevent the few accidents that do happen. Just think about everyone's safety when working on your own electronics, watch each others' electronics and make sure there's a bucket of sand in the area to smother a LiPo fire!

Without a shadow of doubt the most sensible post on this thread:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[dazp83]

Without a shadow of doubt the most sensible post on this thread:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I agree, more reasons to be jealous of the Dutch

[mark christopher]

Just to gauge public opinion, a poll! :drool:

So here lies a perfect example of how a poll online voting can fuck some thing up.

You want to get rid of the brca homlogation list?
Batteries, motors and Speedo lists? Because that's what the poll is asking and its not specific

[mark christopher]

Yes so DCM said, I would want to keep that section whilst getting rid of the list.



I am a bit confused what you are getting at here. I only know the off road world so maybe I am missing your point. I don't care what anyone buys really. I use a mix of old and new gear. I am just as fast with any of it, yeah the older batteries can't do two competitive heats in one charge any more but they are fine for one or as a practice pack.

I guess my main issue is there seems little real reason behind having the list. Many other sections don't have it. It does not control costs it just gives a little traceability and it adds a whole lot of admin and confusion.

End of the day, I don't care that much, I will buy decent stuff anyway and it is not a big issue to make sure its on the list but it does seem bureaucratic so I voted Yes!


So how many use the eb lists and how many do not?

[dazp83]

So in the Netherlands they have no restrictions and are things "a mess" up there?

[mark christopher]

Hands up guv, I am fairly new to this and come from just the off road world and understand your point.

All my points were from the off road perspective maybe the poll should be rerun as:

"Do off road racers want exemption from the EB Homologation list" which as you say is a different question.

Exectly why on line voting does not work, word it wrong or don't know the facts, and screw something up....

[mark christopher]

So in the Netherlands they have no restrictions and are things "a mess" up there?

Did they do it that way with online voting?

[Neil Skull]

OH Dear,
Homologation is not to stop Lipo Fires.

It's a set of rules to make sure all equipment is to a set design size and standard.
It limits the cost to you the driver, the added benifit is you have full Insurance cover by complying with BRCA rules.

Its pretty obvious the guys who don't understand this have not been racing for many years. It used to be a lot more expensive!! the EB board actually help minimise cost!!!

I use 2 lipo packs in all the classes i race, they are on the list and have not been replaced for 2 years. they work well still.

Any one who is arguing the cost is too high at less than £100 for 1 year plus of fair homologated racing does not get racing!!!!

The only reason not to get a Lipo on the list is if it does not comply with the spec. So ask yourself again why are the cheap Lipo not on the list? Because they do not comply with the industry standard that the major manufacturers adhere too! and that can be very expensive! for example, We submitted Team Orion 1s lipo for Homologation that failed due to being slightly oversize! It should not have been a big problem you may think? Well we just got thousands of lipos made that are now not approved!!!. To compensate we gave every customer who purchased one a free Homologated Lipo. I don't want to mention the cost but that's what we did to be fair!!!

If the EB board did not exist our lipo would have been used, next month another manufacturer would bring out one 1mm bigger to squeeze more MH
and so and so on till the lipo became oversize and starts not to fit the cars they was designed for.
Then what do the Car manufacturers do? they start to make different cars to fit bigger or different shaped Lipos. and so on and so on. This means to be competitive you have to keep buying new Lipos and cars just because there is no control!!!
And if anyone thinks this is stupid then think again as this is actually what happend for many years! Nimh became very dangerous and cost to keep updating your cells with latest just to keep up with the quick guy at the club was £500 to £2000 per year! It did happen and we remember it! It is our JOB to let The uneducated know that and accept it!!!!
So we better apologise as we failed!

And that's my first Post not making fun of the guys who do not know! for that i apologise.:blush:

[dazp83]

So is that what's happening in 1/8 ebuggy with no rules? Or in the Netherlands?

[Neil Skull]

1/8th E Buggy is still developing. I believe next year will be the First Euro event.
There are problems in 8th with reliability of Electronics and Lipos. The cost is not as big an issue as 10th as the guys that race accept high cost so far. Until the class grows big enough and evolves i guess you wont see any strict rules. If the racers get tired with some continuing development and cost they may vote for some control on that next AGM, But maybe next year if the Euros are popular and some special guy wins with some special electrics it will be done anyway.
Dont forget EB board was created at request of racers to control the cost and to standardise the class.
In Holland the RC Scene is not so big and controlled. The people are more relaxed about such things and vaguely follow EFRA regs.

[Jim Spencer]

Holland has the same sort of organisation as the UK.

It's called NOMAC, (Google 'Nomac RC' and it'll pop up) click on the 'Clubs' tag to give you a rough idea of the racing scene.

They generally follow a combination of their own and EFRA rules.

In short what you have in the UK is pretty much the same as you have anywhere else in the world - it's essentially an amateur run sport, generally enthusiasts who give up their time to get involved.

[Jim Spencer]

This thread is largely (with some very good exceptions) embarrassing to our sport:blush:

The dramatic lack of knowledge about how are sport works is quite simply sad - why don't some of you ask before typing on a thread that's been read by thousands of people?

it's not hard to get your head around, nor is it hard to figure out how to change it - The instructions on how to do it are written in the handbook!

The entire association officials list is in your Handbook, you can easily find out what people do for a living.. I work for MAN Trucks, the Chairman is retired, the Secretary works with pressure washers, the EB chairman works in an engineering business, the 1/12 chairman works for Lotus etc, etc

Ordinary racers, doing ordinary jobs who'll go and find out how the world actually works, so we can all race in as fair and as reasonably safe as possible environment.

If the passion illustrated on here was turned into actually getting something done then you might, just might, turn round the situation where healthy clubs are disappearing because people won't run them, good people are leaving the sport because of the flak they get on forums like this.

There's a lot of people on here who need to have a good hard THINK - make 100% certain you understand why before savaging your keyboard.
Then, make 100% certain you're actually prepared to DO what you say you want done.
Then Do It.

These last little bits currently separate most of you from the Club and the Association officials - some of your think are corrupt (!), stupid and just out to make life complicated...
But
That's why I'm sitting here typing as the Association Treasurer (though my predecessor wasn't crap - I just wanted it done a different way) so I got up and said so - just as you're doing. - and then did it.

Our sport relies on people doing just that - get off your backside and find out how things are done, then offer to do it better/right.
Then try and spread that knowledge to others by answering their questions as best you can - and never, ever stop learning while you do it.

And when you don't know STFU until you've found out, as it'll stop you making a complete idiot of yourself.. :D

[Jim Spencer]

Right

Back to Basics

The OP's first Post.

You Can't - so the Poll is pointless.

The EB wasn't created for 1/10 Off Road.

It's was created, by and for, all the Electric Sections - even those that currently don't use the EB lists (in all their forms - some use All, some use part, some none) were involved.

So the lists will stop when all the sections stop using them - it would take a vote in each class to pass.

So

The poll should be:-

Should the BRCA 1/10 Off Road section stop using the EB Battery List for Nationals & Regionals.

The lists don't apply to club racing - or bashing - so you can all forget those bits.

So Somebody start a poll with the right question!

[dazp83]

This was a proposal for regionals to use non sanctioned batteries wasnt it? The reaction by some seems as if it's to sacrifice a virgin before each heat. No manufacturer is going to build a car or battery for regionals.

[AC199]

Jim,

There are a lot of people who appreciate your work, myself included, hell I even appreciate the work done by Mark Christopher is getting his part of the sport recognised and organised.

There will always be people who are negative about online stuff, mostly because they are less than clueless about how things can be made to work given the correct oversight. I guess thats why the internet is the single greatest advancement in technology ever, and why a very large amount of its traffic is used for illicit purposes. People like their anonymity and very few have the balls to say to your face what they will bang on about for days online.

I've been reading a thread on facebook with interest where the main gobshites from this and the other thread have been bitching and moaning. The only person to have any kind of intelligible input has been Cockers. While I disagree with his viewpoint, I understand it.

To once again quote MIB - "A person can be smart, but people are dumb panicky animals and you know it"

With proper oversight things can be made to work flawlessly. Imagine the state of this forum without the oversight of the mods?

Keep doing what you're doing Jim, clearly you're doing it well.

AC

[Jim Spencer]

Hi Ac

And to add to all this there's a thread a few down where a blokes offering to build a new track in the West Mids / welsh border area, looking for some help and it's had no replies what-so-ever..

Folk would rather argue about things then offer to help grow their sport..

[Mowen208fly]

Hi Ac

And to add to all this there's a thread a few down where a blokes offering to build a new track in the West Mids / welsh border area, looking for some help and it's had no replies what-so-ever..

Folk would rather argue about things then offer to help grow their sport..

Well said Jim :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[cutting42]

This thread is largely (with some very good exceptions) embarrassing to our sport:blush:


Snip snip



Not sure I agree with your first comment Jim.

Forums exchange views and knowledge, that is what was happening. That's certainly how I use it. This thread was a poll and generated plenty of both ;)

Written rules in a manual do not help with an understanding of how we got there and why they exist. I have been racing only for 2 years and was not involved back in the days some of you are referring to.

The knowledge gained here helps guide and form new views and opinions, done publicly it helps more people than just me.

[dazp83]

Not sure I agree with your first comment Jim.

Forums exchange views and knowledge, that is what was happening. That's certainly how I use it. This thread was a poll and generated plenty of both ;)

Written rules in a manual do not help with an understanding of how we got there and why they exist. I have been racing only for 2 years and was not involved back in the days some of you are referring to.

The knowledge gained here helps guide and form new views and opinions, done publicly it helps more people than just me.

Well said.

Surely what's more embarassing is the irrelevant views about things of yesteryear.
Things move on

[Neil Skull]

The problem you are facing Jim Spencer is the fact a lot of guys don't know about the BRCA what they do or why they do it.

many guys are on the Fringe of clubs and Regional racing, and just don't understand what why who and how!

Its all our responsibility as members of the BRCA to inform them.

and lets not mix up the real guys who want to play with the real enthusiasts and confirm to our sanctioning, To those that want to stir some trouble.

[CHEVY]

I think col should lock thread as it is going nowhere
the brca is the same as fia Moto gp they give you a set of rules to run to
people should think alot of people on brca committee have been there done it read book
bought t shirt scene video

rules are there to keep some sort of standard
and not open free for all
I have seen many changes over 25 years of racing and at least the new brca list are more consistent

keep doing a good job Jim and brca committee
������

[dazp83]

Wish I could have a say in my pay. Shouldnt people be impartial? It's like MPs voting for their own pay rises

[peetbee]

Wish I could have a say in my pay. Shouldnt people be impartial? It's like MPs voting for their own pay rises

Don't understand this comment.

Anyway, some great background reading on the electric board is on:http://www.brca.org/content/electric-board/1396
On the same website are the 1/10 offroad section rules.
Wouldn't it make more sense to ask specific questions about these rules rather than speculating or asking vague questions?

[Cockerill]

Well said.

Surely what's more embarassing is the irrelevant views about things of yesteryear.
Things move on

Because what happened yesteryear got is where we are today, which is a pretty damn good place. It could be a whole lot worse.

Without the work that was done in yesteryear by the people (who we, the BRCA members voted in) behind the scenes of the EB, we'd be in a much worse place.

Classes wouldn't necessarily use the the same batteries across class. You'd be buying new batteries every week, they could still be worse than what team guys get. I'm not just talking about Regional or National level, I'm talking worldwide. The work done by the very same people has laid the foundations for EFRA, IFMAR, ROAR and pretty much every other governing body, so that all racers worldwide use the same framework. This may not seem relevant at your local club, but for any drivers that wish to progress to larger races it's great.

Believe it or not, the rules weren't created by one guy overnight just for fun. They were discussed, created, modified and implemented to solve problems that the BRCA members were facing, and they were done in such a way that brought 99% of countries onto the same line. The people who don't realise this seem quite willing to undo all that hard work for the sake of some cheap lipo's, without any thought to the potential consequences (which at a guess would be minimum the same problems we previously had).

[dazp83]

I mean people who sell batteries who champion the list. I cant believe any manufacturer of car or lipo would design something for some regionals.
The real problem here is hobbyking not submitting, I've contacted them so maybe I'll hear something. Maybe if some more people on here did the same we could get somewhere? Seeing as this list seems to be so precious.

[Cockerill]

I mean people who sell batteries who champion the list. I cant believe any manufacturer of car or lipo would design something for some regionals.
The real problem here is hobbyking not submitting, I've contacted them so maybe I'll hear something. Maybe if some more people on here did the same we could get somewhere? Seeing as this list seems to be so precious.

The list was originally championed by racers, to save them money ;) The guys selling batteries were more than happy selling the battery of the month each month. I'd imagine that they were pretty frustrated at the creation of the list and rules. They were then only allowed to sell new batteries once a year and there was a maximum price so they couldn't increase it beyond reasonable (and I believe it stayed pretty stable for years!). Do you think battery sellers would rather have the pre or post list scenario?

No, a manufacturer probably wouldn't for regionals, correct. But a guy in his garage might, and find an odd shaped lipo that will fit. Great for him, unlucky for anyone trying to race against him on a level playing field.

The regionals are supposed to be a stepping stone to nationals. How would you feel after doing a year of regionals, going to your first national and finding your cells aren't legal and you can't race? Club racing is supposed to be the step before regionals, which is why I'd always recommend to a club racer to buy a lipo from the list.

I feel we actually all agree there should be rules and a list for nationals and above? The debate is about regionals? Personally I don't feel informed enough to make a decision on what regional rules should be. As MattW said, there was a proposal to remove the list for regionals, and for whatever reason that proposal was withdrawn. I'm guessing it was withdrawn for a very sensible reason that was explained at the meeting. I'd expect that when the section minutes are available it'll also be noted in there for is all to know, simples!

[peetbee]

Deleted cos Toms answer was much better

[Chris56]

Right, I've resisted posting until now! My views are as follows:

1) Jim Spencer, Slowone, DCM- you have the patience of a saint!
2) Tom Cockerill - you comments are very rational and give a good balanced account of why the list actually exists.
3) I probably won't be racing in the regionals as I tend to do other things during the summer and I only have Hobbyking LIPOs
4) The poll results at best show that there is divided opinion as to whether we need a list for 1/10 off road regionals or not.
5) I would like to see Hobbyking LIPOs on the list -
6) Hobbyking - get your finger out Hobbyking as you sell LIPOs that are top quality and an excellent price. You are obviously committed to the UK market, otherwise you won't have opened a UK warehouse, just another £40 investment would take that even further.
7) I like the BRCA but after reading the comments on facebook, there are a small handful of members who are complete tossors.
8) I think these threads have been useful as I am quite heavily involved with my clb and organising events, yet I have learned a hell of a lot about the BRCA and how it works.
9) Enough has been said and we are all going round in circles.

Peace out good people

respect

[TheReferee]

Wish I could have a say in my pay. Shouldnt people be impartial? It's like MPs voting for their own pay rises

explain the difference between a person voting at the AGM to keep the battery list because he happens to have a vested interest in selling them and someone voting to lose the list because he has access to cheap batteries not on the list.

i understand that making racing cheaper for themselves is a priority for some, others will spend huge sums on the latest parts.
all motor sport incurs costs, the further into the sport the more the cost and more rules, we currently have a set of rules which allow clubs to decide what they will allow racers to run at clubs, we then step up these rules into regional events, they increase at national level and again at euro and world levels.
the decision here is at what point is a particular rule applied, you wish to apply the battery list at national level rather than the current regional level.
you may have strong support from other racers, unfortunately this year you will have to either buy listed batteries or not do regionals, next year you could propose a change and put it to the AGM, it may pass it may not.

[dazp83]

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop. I'm obviously all for shops and get all my spares etc from herts or anywhere that has it online.
If someone's voting to create a monopoly on the market then that's unfair

[Peakey]

Right, I've resisted posting until now! My views are as follows:

1) Jim Spencer, Slowone, DCM- you have the patience of a saint!
2) Tom Cockerill - you comments are very rational and give a good balanced account of why the list actually exists.
3) I probably won't be racing in the regionals as I tend to do other things during the summer and I only have Hobbyking LIPOs
4) The poll results at best show that there is divided opinion as to whether we need a list for 1/10 off road regionals or not.
5) I would like to see Hobbyking LIPOs on the list -
6) Hobbyking - get your finger out Hobbyking as you sell LIPOs that are top quality and an excellent price. You are obviously committed to the UK market, otherwise you won't have opened a UK warehouse, just another £40 investment would take that even further.
7) I like the BRCA but after reading the comments on facebook, there are a small handful of members who are complete tossors.
8) I think these threads have been useful as I am quite heavily involved with my clb and organising events, yet I have learned a hell of a lot about the BRCA and how it works.
9) Enough has been said and we are all going round in circles.

Peace out good people

respect


What he said :thumbsup:

[DCM]

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop. I'm obviously all for shops and get all my spares etc from herts or anywhere that has it online.
If someone's voting to create a monopoly on the market then that's unfair

Let's get some things straight. None of the rules are there for the benefit of a few.

Nobody on the committee is making money off them.

Yes, distributors submit batteries as their market is RACING so it would be pointless not having their batteries/motors on the list, it has nothing to do with monopolies, you could say it is good business sense/marketing.

HobbyKing sales probably wouldn't spike if they went on the list and as the people who run their distribution centre are probably to busy to appease a small sector of the market.

NON Racing fun hobbyist far outnumber racers.

For me, the list isn't an issue, complying with the rules when doing nationals is something you have to adhere to, and to be fair, with the cost of travelling to nationals, hotel/camping, food, tyres etc makes battery cost irrelevant.

Regional, there are currently rule that do not have to be used at regional events, to me, the list is something that is an obstacle to those wanting to have a go/non-serious racer or if there is no scrutineering, an opportunity for a blind eye.

[dwp102]

i understand that making racing cheaper for themselves is a priority for some


Its not about making it cheaper for themselves personally, its about making it cheaper for everyone. Money should not be a barrier to entry to race, otherwise you get the crappiest racers winning because they have the best equipment. Of course money is a barrier to entry, and therefor the BRCA should be doing all it can to mitigate that, this is how I see things anyway. How can it be a good thing that people are only winning because they have more money, in the interest of competition i cannot see how this can be a good thing. I am not talking about the nationals. The guys at the top of there are amazingly talented, and they would win regardless of what they drove, because they have talent. Really this only applies to the mid range of club racing. I personally have nothing more to add to the discussion now :)

[SlowOne]

I guess my main issue is there seems little real reason behind having the list. Many other sections don't have it. It does not control costs it just gives a little traceability and it adds a whole lot of admin and confusion.Wrong knowledge - most Sections do run to the lists. Get you rfacts straight...

So the list exists for a theoretical change in the future? Who's making batteries for brca rules as well? Are we centre of lipo market?We are the centre of the RC LiPo market. Together with ROAR we have led the world and given the manufacturers a specification to work within. EFRA and IFMAR are just two organisations that have followed us. As a result you can buy a battery from HK that will fit your car, and one from the list that means you can compete anywhere in the world and be within the rules.

Every manufacturer is making cells for BRCA rules, as they are the rules adopted across the world so if a manufacturer wants to sell to RC, they have to make cells to our rules.

Yeah well said and its been said before other classes do just fine without a battery list or motors or esc.Oval and e-buggy - two Sections out of the electric sections. Oval use the motor list and TC use the 12th Section speedo list for blinky. The only Section using none of the lists is e-buggy and Micro.

So is that what's happening in 1/8 ebuggy with no rules? Or in the Netherlands?E-buggy haven't asked for the list of their cells, and since they can't even agree on whether it is 3S, 4S or any other 'S', they aren't ready to have a list. Their Section is new and finding its feet, so it's no surprise they don't have or want a list just yet. once that settles down it is something they can consider, but like all new classes, the enthusiasts setting it up are finding what will make it successful.

Not sure I agree with your first comment Jim.

Forums exchange views and knowledge, that is what was happening. That's certainly how I use it. This thread was a poll and generated plenty of both ;)

The knowledge gained here helps guide and form new views and opinions, done publicly it helps more people than just me.That's the problem Jim is talking about - this is just exchanging views. Much of the rest is not knowledge, it is just supposition and uninformed comment. That's what Jim, Terry and I keep saying - check your facts and stop posting what is frankly, bollocks.

Why people think that they have to say something that is wrong, and not ask a question if they are not sure, I have no idea. The three most powerful words you can use in any situation are "I don't know." If you then go and find out and can then respond with facts and reasoned analysis, you will go far.

Most of the time in my business people who cannot say those three words talk crap assuming that the people they are talking to are ignorant, or bullshit their way through and think the other person can't see that. That is a recipe for career and social disaster, all because they can't admit they don't know.

Please be aware that much of what people post here to justify their view is wrong. Everyone is entitled to a view, but these days it seems to be the norm that people are not strong enough to argue their view, they have to quote something as fact to justify it. Since so many of those 'facts' are transparently wrong, the situation just gets worse, not better.

Well said.

Surely what's more embarassing is the irrelevant views about things of yesteryear.
Things move onYEster-year is irrelevant? So what you're saying is that everything you learn each day you disregard tomorrow because it is now irrelevant? If you fell off your bike yesterday by going too fast, you do the same thing the next time? I think not.

You're just like the politicians - completely ignorant of the past and willing to repeat previous mistakes over and over again. Times may change, but situations don't. It is the past, and one's experience of the situations we find ourselves in, that allows us to manage to keep living in the present.

There's a big difference between modernisation and keeping up with the times. BRCA EB lists are very good at keeping up with the times.

The problem you are facing Jim Spencer is the fact a lot of guys don't know about the BRCA what they do or why they do it.

many guys are on the Fringe of clubs and Regional racing, and just don't understand what why who and how!

Its all our responsibility as members of the BRCA to inform them.

and lets not mix up the real guys who want to play with the real enthusiasts and confirm to our sanctioning, To those that want to stir some trouble.Spot on Neil! We all do our best to help people understand, but it is not easy to get that message across when people do not want to listen. The worst part is doing a job for the BRCA and effectively being insulted and vilified by others who not only do not know us, but actively avoid finding out and offering any help to keep up with the times and keep the sport going.

Perhaps the most dispiriting thing is that if we were all in the pub, most of the views and comments expressed here would not be said to our faces. It won't stop me, but it is hard to take.

[Rich D]

.............otherwise you get the crappiest racers winning because they have the best equipment.


Disregarding the rest of the post, the above comment is hilarious.

90% thumbs, 9% tyres, 1% "equipment"

Give any of the national top 20 guys a RTR on decent tyres and they will lap your average regional driver.

[dazp83]

I'm not saying anyone on the committee has anything to do with batteries etc just other people do.
And as far as I was aware the only restriction for 1/8 buggy was 4s, seeing as at Slough there was only one final they can't be too choosey which is fine by me.
And anyway as I said earlier maybe the more people who contact hobbyking the better. Then everyone would be happy if they were homologated :)

[DCM]

I'm not saying anyone on the committee has anything to do with batteries etc just other people do.

Of course some people do, and if having an homologation list allows them the structure to get products made, assessed and homologated to make them more salable to the racing fraternity, then so be it, that is business in the end, I don't see where the issue is. They aren't making the rules, they are not enforcing them, they are merely using the lists as a tool to make products and sell them, simples, nothing devious in that.

[mark christopher]

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop. I'm obviously all for shops and get all my spares etc from herts or anywhere that has it online.
If someone's voting to create a monopoly on the market then that's unfair



question for you, do you actually know why thier not allowed by the brca/on the list?

[dazp83]

Well as far as I was aware hobbyking haven't submitted? Or have they?

[terry.sc]

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop.
If this would be the case and everyone would go for the cheap option, why isn't everyone buying Gens Ace cells? They are the same price as Hobbykings cells and a few of them are already on the EB list.

[terry.sc]

Written rules in a manual do not help with an understanding of how we got there and why they exist. I have been racing only for 2 years and was not involved back in the days some of you are referring to.
Here's a good example.
In 2007 the bike section didn't use the lists, and their rules specified that the electric bike stock class was restricted to a 27T stock motor. At the worlds the winner was way ahead of everyone else due to a one off special hand wound and balanced motor that was built by Corally to fit the motor specs.

The equivalent today is that if you don't use homologation lists then Novak will happily sell you one of their Vulcan Outlaw motors. They are special motors with hand wound stators with special low resistance wire and would cost around £30 more than a normal motor. Or you could also use the Corally Pro Red range that is specifically banned even by clubs being more open about the motor rules

[cutting42]

Wrong knowledge - most Sections do run to the lists. Get you rfacts straight...

Many? Most? Semantics, I make it 4 who don't which I chose to call many. Hardly getting my facts wrong.

That's the problem Jim is talking about - this is just exchanging views. Much of the rest is not knowledge, it is just supposition and uninformed comment. That's what Jim, Terry and I keep saying - check your facts and stop posting what is frankly, bollocks.


Gee thanks for the constructive criticism. I disagree with you as well. We are all learning from this, from Jim, Tom and possibly even you. Hardly helpful to say shut up and read the manual is it?

Its one of the ways we learn by discussion and debate. As it happens the points made mostly by Tom make a lot of sense and put the current situation in perspective and how we arrived here. I can also appreciate the potential for it to get out of hand again in the future and see the list has value.

That was my point, I did not see the value before, now I do. Not from reading a set of rules but by the interchange of views and opinions on this fine forum.

[Crazy L]

Fookin ell, this debate still going? That's well over a week now. Laws of the land are sometimes decided quicker than this.

You do all realise that you're all using up space in your real life to get het up about battery packs for model cars.

[mark christopher]

Well if hobbyking lipos escs and motors were allowed by the brca then sales of other products would drop. I'm obviously all for shops and get all my spares etc from herts or anywhere that has it online.
If someone's voting to create a monopoly on the market then that's unfair

Well as far as I was aware hobbyking haven't submitted? Or have they?

Correct they have not submitted them, so when you say if they were allowed? If they submitted them they would be........they have not, their problem, not the brca.

[dazp83]

Oh okay I thought you knew why they hadnt submitted or weren't allowed on the list.
Have a fun weekend racing :)

[MaxBaker]

As a newbie to the hobby i have found that the BRCA lists have been a great help in choosing what equipment to buy which is safe, but also commonly used. Without them as guidance i would of needed to ask a lot more questions, but i wouldn't also feel as confident with the electrics as i do now.

[dicky14]

As a newbie to the hobby i have found that the BRCA lists have been a great help in choosing what equipment to buy which is safe, but also commonly used. Without them as guidance i would of needed to ask a lot more questions, but i wouldn't also feel as confident with the electrics as i do now.

Excellent reason for having the lists, enough said:thumbsup:

[jimmy]

Homologation is for fair competition - it doesn't affect off road, so it shouldn't be used. The last time this thread cropped up some people went MENTAL, particularly at me, because they CAN'T READ the words "OFF ROAD" :)
It isn't for safety. :yawn:
A BRCA 'recommended reading' (suggested motor/batteries) list would be more worthy than a list of people who paid to be on it to sell more stuff. :bored:

[DCM]

Homologation is for fair competition - it doesn't affect off road, so it shouldn't be used. The last time this thread cropped up some people went MENTAL, particularly at me, because they CAN'T READ the words "OFF ROAD" :)
It isn't for safety. :yawn:
A BRCA 'recommended reading' (suggested motor/batteries) list would be more worthy than a list of people who paid to be on it to sell more stuff. :bored:

This post needs a 'like' button :thumbsup:

[Essex2Visuvesi]

The safety aspect is tenuous at best, ANY lipo can cause a fire, it's the nature of the beast.
I have only ever had one battery go bad on me and that was on the approved list

[dazp83]

Homologation is for fair competition - it doesn't affect off road, so it shouldn't be used. The last time this thread cropped up some people went MENTAL, particularly at me, because they CAN'T READ the words "OFF ROAD" :)
It isn't for safety. :yawn:
A BRCA 'recommended reading' (suggested motor/batteries) list would be more worthy than a list of people who paid to be on it to sell more stuff. :bored:


Agreed

[DCM]

The safety aspect is tenuous at best, ANY lipo can cause a fire, it's the nature of the beast.
I have only ever had one battery go bad on me and that was on the approved list

As has been said before, the list doesn't ensure the battery is safe, just that there is a paperwork trail back if there is a fault......

[mark christopher]

Ground hog day anyone?

[DCM]

Ground hog day anyone?

I think it is more like 'Life, Die, Repeat'!

[BazzerH]

I think it is more like 'Life, Die, Repeat'!

Damn good film! Reckon they had lipos in their exosuits?

[DCM]

Damn good film! Reckon they had lipos in their exosuits?

If they were, they weren't on eh EB list.... but it was a one-off event and not sanctioned :thumbsup:

[beale]

It was 1 up man ship that made me give up racing 20 years ago for the fact that a paper boys salary wouldn't cut it, not blowing myself up but at 10 years old was regularly on the podium up to winning An A final at 16, but sadly My cells just wouldn't manage a 5 minute heat on a 14x2 in 4wd so that was that, anyway a mate got me back into it and I praise the work of the BRCA, and wish everyone could just focus this on helping people into racing rather than deterring just to promote some slightly cheaper lipo's

[mark christopher]

It was 1 up man ship that made me give up racing 20 years ago for the fact that a paper boys salary wouldn't cut it, not blowing myself up but at 10 years old was regularly on the podium up to winning An A final at 16, but sadly My cells just wouldn't manage a 5 minute heat on a 14x2 in 4wd so that was that, anyway a mate got me back into it and I praise the work of the BRCA, and wish everyone could just focus this on helping people into racing rather than deterring just to promote some slightly cheaper lipo's



well said! :thumbsup:

[JCJC]

"+1"

[dwp102]

It was 1 up man ship that made me give up racing 20 years ago for the fact that a paper boys salary wouldn't cut it, not blowing myself up but at 10 years old was regularly on the podium up to winning An A final at 16, but sadly My cells just wouldn't manage a 5 minute heat on a 14x2 in 4wd so that was that, anyway a mate got me back into it and I praise the work of the BRCA, and wish everyone could just focus this on helping people into racing rather than deterring just to promote some slightly cheaper lipo's

How does lowering the cost put people off?!

[SlowOne]

It doesn't. Avoiding your local model shop for the sake of a few quid means that people do not see the sport easily and we get less people into clubs and racing. See the post from Roger M on the other thread for the full reasoning - it's well said.

I really don't buy this argument that cost is everything to everyone. Anywhere you look (cars, hi-fi, 'phones, food, clothes, fuel, etc.) people do not buy the cheapest. They sue their obey where their priorities are, otherwise everyone would be in Lidl and Aldi, running around in Dacias, buying their fuel at supermarkets, etc.

If this is all about getting people to Regionals, and low cost is the key, why would people want to spend more money going to a Regional just because they saved a tenner on their cell? It seems the argument is that people would spend £20 on fuel to get to a meeting if only they could save £10 on a battery. Why not stay at the club with your cheaper battery and not spend anything on the fuel?

Nice to see that although the posts seem to against the lists in the main, the vote is for the lists. :thumbsup:

[Al3xis007]

Christ if it's too expensive, go race mardave bangers. I'm sick of cheap people buying cheap batteries from china, don't be a tight bas**** and take pride in you hobby! support the shops or it'll all go away from lack of new people!

Combine our brca list with the efra and roar list yes

[mark christopher]

I wonder how many on here that want cheap lipos, went out and bought the latest iphone?

[Essex2Visuvesi]

I wonder how many on here that want cheap lipos, went out and bought the latest iphone?

128Gb Iphone 6+ :p unlocked to all networks.... the price? Free :thumbsup:
Wish I could get LiPos that cheap

[Si Coe]

Not really a good comparison there Mark. After all its only on a site like this that people would consider paying £25 let alone £90 for a battery for a toy car. In fact, most people would be horrified at the amount of money we spend on this hobby - easily enough for a real car.

In contrast spending big money on the latest iPhone is considered socially normal.

I actually think this sums up the whole thread nicely. Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. For some here the value of close regulation, reputable brands and supporting UK shops is worth paying a little extra, for others is isn't.

[HOTSHOT III]

I haven't posted on this thread or the other one for a few days because, despite the fact my views on the issues raised have NOT changed, i've done some thinking and decided I didn't like where it was taking me as an individual.

Anyone who looks back through my posts on this site will see that getting into online slanging matches isn't really my style and although I felt (and still feel) strongly that there are figures within the hobby industry who are not doing all they could do to make racing more affordable, the fact remains it's not very constructive to call people jobsworths and suggest they go and live in North Korea so Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, i'm sorry I spoke to you like that.

That's all I wanted to say, I think this got a little out of hand and I hope we can all move on and enjoy our racing.

Alex Guiver.

[stumpiey]

the whole of the BRCA are volunteers and do a fantastic and unappreciated for the most part job.
homologation batteries, motors and blinky speedo's are part of the rules which are needed to race, but batteries are only really enforced at regionals and nationals, so if you want to race with cheaper non homolgated club racing is the place.

as a by line this thread feels like when MyLaps brought out RC4 and all the MRT user's cried out in unison

[Teaboy]

Heres the question then, im not sure on the answer. If i was to submit so called cheap cells to the BRCA could i get them approved, or does it need to be the importer? I only ask this as i deal with 3 of the lipo manufacturer's through my day job, you would all be more upset if you know how much you can get them for!!!
So the paperwork for most lipo's is freely available as a Material and product Hazard Data Sheet, so if this is the paperwork that is required then that ones thing ticked. If this is for insurance purposes in that the importer is liable should an injury occur then this is completely different as it then becomes probable that company law, and product liability law comes into force, in that case a massive Pandora's box is about to be opened, as most clubs dont run to the EB list, in which case im not sure how the insurance works.

Just for the record im all for the list (just need to get inot perspective what the problem is here) and really appreciate the work the BRCA do.

Cheers

Rich

[SlowOne]

Everyone wants to get the batteries approved, but to save the confusion here's the relevant reasons why individual's can't submit them...

"It is recommended that batteries submitted for approval should originate from the original cell manufacturer or the OEM supplier whose name or trade-mark is depicted on the battery label/heat shrink."

9. Approval does not engage the BRCA towards any guarantees or responsibilities. The submitter will defend, indemnify and hold the BRCA harmless from and against any and all liabilities, damages, losses, claims, fines, penalties, assessments, demands, actions, suits and judgments, including all fees, costs and expenses incidental thereto, that may be charged to, asserted against or incurred by the BRCA by reason of any loss, damage or injury of any kind or nature whatsoever in any manner or to any extent resulting from or arising out of the articles or services approved by the BRCA for use during BRCA events except to the extent resulting solely and directly from the BRCA’s gross negligence or wilful misconduct.
10. The BRCA require that a copy of this document is returned when batteries are submitted, signed by an authorised representative of the manufacturer (or OEM supplier) showing agreement to the procedures and rules detailed. (Disclaimer on page 3)."

If, as an individual, you can register a UK company and take on the necessary risks then you could do it. Otherwise, it will need a company already set up with public and product liability insurance, and on some way 'related' to the cells being approved, to be able to cover the requirements. HTH :)

[SlowOne]

Here's the reason we should make sure local shops stay in business; great post...

http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?p=885158#post885158

As someone said above, spending £800+ on a product that can be bought for £500 and thinking you get it for free (iPhone 6) is socially acceptable, but spending another £20 on a battery to help model shops be there for guys like Whites to get into the hobby are not. That makes no sense to me at all...

[DCM]

If this is all about getting people to Regionals, and low cost is the key, why would people want to spend more money going to a Regional just because they saved a tenner on their cell? It seems the argument is that people would spend £20 on fuel to get to a meeting if only they could save £10 on a battery. Why not stay at the club with your cheaper battery and not spend anything on the fuel?

Unfortunately, not ALL model shops are good, fortunately my local one has stopped selling RC as the people there had no idea with regard to racing, BRCA or lists.

As for regionals, most get into it as cheap as possible initially (as running a club, if you start talking about lists etc, eyes glaze over and they no longer are interested), so the barrier then becomes wanting to do their clubs regional but not wanting to because stupidly their club gear isn't good enough (not due to performance either). Which is my issue with the EB list, not the list in general, just the level it is applied to, as at regional we don't have to have scrutineering, referee's etc.

[keenbutkrap]

lets all run what we want then someone will bring out a reciever with a gyro to keep it all under control oh wait spektrum has this hobby is grown men playing with toys trying to buy an advantage if you cant win by driving well new super electrics wont help you cant buy skill

[DCM]

lets all run what we want then someone will bring out a reciever with a gyro to keep it all under control oh wait spektrum has this hobby is grown men playing with toys trying to buy an advantage if you cant win by driving well new super electrics wont help you cant buy skill

That is already banned, that tech was banned in 1993 (or 91, when the Worlds were in Basildon).

[mark christopher]

I haven't posted on this thread or the other one for a few days because, despite the fact my views on the issues raised have NOT changed, i've done some thinking and decided I didn't like where it was taking me as an individual.

Anyone who looks back through my posts on this site will see that getting into online slanging matches isn't really my style and although I felt (and still feel) strongly that there are figures within the hobby industry who are not doing all they could do to make racing more affordable, the fact remains it's not very constructive to call people jobsworths and suggest they go and live in North Korea so Mark Christopher and Neil Skull, i'm sorry I spoke to you like that.

That's all I wanted to say, I think this got a little out of hand and I hope we can all move on and enjoy our racing.

Alex Guiver.

no offence was taken at the time, I have very broad shoulders ;-)

[dwp102]

Unfortunately, not ALL model shops are good, fortunately my local one has stopped selling RC as the people there had no idea with regard to racing, BRCA or lists.

As for regionals, most get into it as cheap as possible initially (as running a club, if you start talking about lists etc, eyes glaze over and they no longer are interested), so the barrier then becomes wanting to do their clubs regional but not wanting to because stupidly their club gear isn't good enough (not due to performance either). Which is my issue with the EB list, not the list in general, just the level it is applied to, as at regional we don't have to have scrutineering, referee's etc.

That is my issue also. Keep the list for the nationals and international events by all means. But for everyone else it is totally unnecessary.

[dazp83]

There's plenty more to rc car racing than a few regionals, so I'll stick to the racing where I'm allowed.

[mark christopher]

did any one point out the list is here, it stays for 2015?

poll pointless, moaning, pointless! :thumbsup:

[dazp83]

I'm sure it's been pointed out a million times the opportunity was missed this time.

[JCJC]

List stays for 2015, but a new list not the 2014 list.
Still time (until Dec 1st) for new batteries to be submitted.
(unless I have misread the Battery Homologation Procedure)

http://www.brca.org/content/electric-board/1396

[Mike Haswell]

Yes, They have to submit the (2S) batteries with all the relevant documentation, etc. by 1st December.

I note from one of the FB Forums that one of the drivers asked Turnigy to submit the lipos for approval and they have declined to do so. Not the first time someone has asked them either.

[shark]

Would imagine Turnigy sell plenty of lipos and don't really care about being homologated.

[Mike Haswell]

Would imagine Turnigy sell plenty of lipos and don't really care about being homologated.

Hobbyking is the one who sells them and their name shows where their focus is - on the hobby side which is where they make their money.

[dazp83]

Pretty sure this is a hobby for most people. And they have products which are roar approved, obviously a bigger market there and they see uk as not relevant.

[mark christopher]

Pretty sure this is a hobby for most people. And they have products which are roar approved, obviously a bigger market there and they see uk as not relevant.

They care for their customers then....

[dazp83]

Well yeah but it would be interesting to know how their products were roar approved, did roar themselves approve them? How many other governing bodies are there worldwide? Surely the uk and USA aren't the only ones playing with rc cars. And I wouldn't have got into 1/10 and 1/8 electric if it hadn't been for hobbyking, it's a good stepping stone.

[jimmy]

Well yeah but it would be interesting to know how their products were roar approved, did roar themselves approve them? How many other governing bodies are there worldwide? Surely the uk and USA aren't the only ones playing with rc cars. And I wouldn't have got into 1/10 and 1/8 electric if it hadn't been for hobbyking, it's a good stepping stone.

I think most don't care? Most countries I've been to, the number of racers needs everything encouraging.

[JCJC]

If HobbyKing/Turnigy have ROAR approved lipo's can these be used at UK BRCA sanctioned meetings (regionals/nationals) ?

( I am assuming Regionals are BRCA sanctioned meetings, but I get the feeling the clubs/regions can/do pick)

Are there special rules for visiting international drivers ?

Sorry I don't know the nittygritty and cannot be bothered to try and look it up myself.

[JCJC]

I think most don't care? Most countries I've been to, the number of racers needs everything encouraging.

This is so true even in this country, if clubs don't have a hard core group of dedicated proactive people running them numbers drop until the club just cannot exist, if that group exists then the club prospers.

[dazp83]

Surely it's one rule for all? And it has to be Brca approved, motor esc and battery.

[K-Brewer]

Im guessing using BRCA legal lipos on the list is for health an saftey reason an insurance reasons also?

[JCJC]

Are the ROAR and EFRA criteria very different then, I am assuming they have approved lists as well.

[jimmy]

Im guessing using BRCA legal lipos on the list is for health an saftey reason an insurance reasons also?

It's for fair competition is all, not insurance. Who says cells are safer just because a company paid £50 to have the size and voltage checked?

[mugenmark]

cheaper it is,the more people will try it.i use trunigy,lipos and esc.the lipo are good{65c to 130c}but put a orion 90c in and you can feel the difference{but there 3x the cost}the esc are good,but once you get a r10,your notice the difference.get the people into the hobby and there soon be buying the more expensive brands,plus trunigy should subbmit these motors,lipos and esc.some are free for approval and the lipo only cost £20,so it really trungiy fault.there make a lot more money if approved

[neallewis]

Why is this thread still a thing?

[dazp83]

Well it doesn't seem they're interested as I messaged them and they replied with some sponsorship nonsense. They have stands at the big model shows so I'll ask someone at one of those if nothing before.

[RC Kev]

I voted NO but still choose to use Turnigy ESC/lipo/motor because that's what our club chooses.

We definitely need a EBHL otherwise cheating becomes the norm - just look at ROAR stock :(

[RC Kev]

...
As you might have noticed, I don't live in the UK...I don't consider scrutineers to be very critical about things, yet in my 3 years of racing I have seen only one LiPo fire because someone accidentally charged his battery pack at 3S - homologation wouldn't have prevented that, instead he would've just burnt away a more expensive battery :lol: Anyway, he noticed the case cracked during charging and he had time to carry it away from the pit area, where it had all the space to sizzle and smoke as hard as it could...

This is what happens when someone uses a cheapo charger that relies on the user guessing the right number of cells in a pack, any half decent charger would have warned the numpty he/she needs to re-guess and try again until he guessed right :D

Which begs the question, should the EBHL also include chargers?

[RC Kev]

If HobbyKing/Turnigy have ROAR approved lipo's can these be used at UK BRCA sanctioned meetings (regionals/nationals) ?

( I am assuming Regionals are BRCA sanctioned meetings, but I get the feeling the clubs/regions can/do pick)

Are there special rules for visiting international drivers ?

Sorry I don't know the nittygritty and cannot be bothered to try and look it up myself.
Check them on the EBHL on BRCA website, do your due diligence, then you'll know the answer :thumbsup:

[Si Coe]

I think some people forget where we sit in this relationship. For any large RC business racers are a tiny, tiny market. We are surrounded by microscopic companies that rely desperately on us racers and forget that actually the vast majority of RC's never see a track.

Hobbyking won't submit Turnigy lipos because they don't want to be the official importers. Whilst they are the main source for them they aren't exclusive and most other sources aren't in the UK. Technically they aren't liable for anything not sold through their UK warehouse (even their own overseas stuff doesn't count) but proving where it came from could be hard. Since they sell plenty of packs as it is, going for approval will probably cost them more money than they make in extra sales.
After all racing is a tiny part of their business. Hell lipos for cars (racing or not) is a very small fraction full stop!

[JCJC]

Check them on the EBHL on BRCA website, do your due diligence, then you'll know the answer :thumbsup:

Another quick reply without thinking, if the lipo's are ROAR or EFRA approved (and I don't know if they have the same system) then they won't be on the EBHL list - my question was and still is if they are ROAR or EFRA stickered can they be used at BRCA sanctioned meetings or would a visiting racer need UK stickered batteries. (I think earlier in the thread it was suggested the Turnigy lipo's were ROAR approved, "interesting to know how their products were roar approved" was the line.)

And as stated above, just like most posts in this thread that are just 'a guess' or 'I would think' I cannot be bothered to try and look it up myself. (sorry if this reads like I am having a go at you RC Kev, I am not, just half this thread seems to be conjecture at best).

[Si Coe]

No. To be ROAR or EFRA approved they will have had to meet about the same technical specs, but since UK availability is a key requirement they are not automatically OK.

This is actually the crux of the argument here. Nano-techs are ROAR approved, and are available in the UK. If someone was willing to act as a proper distributor for them and take the responsibility that comes with that they would pass. Hobbyking aren't going to, so they remain banned more because of red tape than any actually safety or performance issue.

[JCJC]

Cheers Si, :wub still looking for that like button.

[Mike Haswell]

Looking at the Roar list, the last time any of the Turnigy Nano-Tech batteries was July 2012....and things have moved on since then.
Only two saddle packs - 4850 50C and 5000 30C.
Best 2S - 5.6 5600 50Cand 1S 5600 65C.

[Chris56]

Doh!, mine are 6000! I do own a colour printer - might make some "Team Orion, BRCA legal, init" labels to stick over the top

[MattW]

ROAR / EFRA approval counts for absolutely nothing in BRCA rules. The EFRA approval process is incredibly similar to the BRCA's, it's run by the same guy.

Everyone talks about RC cars / racers being a tiny part of Hobby King etc's market, bla bla bla.

Yes and No IMHO. Sure, in their overall market of "selling LiPo's" i'd agree - I'd expect flight dwarfs it by some way. However, in their market for selling hard cased LiPo's that just happen to be around the required size for racing rules, surely the racers could / should be a pretty big part of that market??? If they bothered to support it that is.

[dazp83]

Doh!, mine are 6000! I do own a colour printer - might make some "Team Orion, BRCA legal, init" labels to stick over the top


Good idea, and I'll change the colour of my esc to the absima one.

[Si Coe]

No really.
Saddles for sure, hence the very limited stock of them, shortys ditto.

But sticks will fit in any RC designed to take 6 sub-C NiMH's ie practically every model out there. Yes you could run soft cased, but when hard cased costs no more and offers extra protection its a no brainer. So they sell a lot of hardcased stick packs to bashers.
Again whilst that market isn't too fussed about C ratings overall if you don't need to pay much more for a higher C rating they'll buy it.

But you will notice stock levels for race orientated packs are much lower than some other types.

[Mike Haswell]

It's for fair competition is all, not insurance. Who says cells are safer just because a company paid £50 to have the size and voltage checked?

Actually, It is £40 (not £50) or even as little as £25 for 1S only. And these costs cover multiple numbers.

And it is more than just size and voltage that is checked.
Obviously all the measurements are done to ensure they comply with our rules and match UN certification and results supplied (which can be up to 31 pages). The weight is noted and photos taken on the relevant packs which is one the list for an easy check (something that Roar could do with adding). There is safety of construction and drop-testing, Tube retention, ensuring that the labeling is correct to comply UK requirements and air transport rules.




.

[Mike Haswell]

But you will notice stock levels for race orientated packs are much lower than some other types.

Goes to show they know where the market is for their products ;)

[James Pickard]

I can't help feeling that the point of this debate is being somewhat missed by the 'No' camp.

I wonder if the opinions on here and the outcome of the poll would be different if the question was rephrased to something like "Should I be able to use my perfectly fine 'non-approved' batteries, that are almost in every way identical to the batteries on the ’approved list' and have been approved for use in different parts of the world (with a sticker on them to verify this – I haven’t seen the BRCA one, btw!) at BRCA sanctioned events?"

Bit long winded, but before you all start yelling, "Because it's the rules!", let me put that more specifically as, "Should I be able to use my nanotech batteries at my regionals?" And yes I know that the rules have been decided upon for the year, and yes it's a very democratic process and all that, but the people who do turn out to vote on these decisions tend not be the people using this equipment anyway.

Unfortunately the people using nanotech are just your average club racer, and this person, by and large, isn't going to travel to the AGM. So we end up with the situation where those who are most affected by this are totally unrepresented on this matter at the AGM.

Okay, so what difference does this make? Say someone's just taken up this hobby and has some good, inexpensive equipment and has found a local club to race at. They start doing better and then find out that their club is hosting a regional event, and decide to enter to test themselves against some other racers. They go to scrutineering for the first race only to be told that these perfectly fine batteries that they've been using all this time are suddenly no good because they are not on some arbitrary list. They are told that they must buy some other, more expensive batteries or not race. So what we’ve ended up with is an unnecessary exclusion policy.

It was mentioned on someone else’s post that the first mandate of the BRCA was to promote the sport. This is done fundamentally at grass-roots level, and must not be forgotten when you reach the lofty heights of the Nationals and beyond. What everyone should be doing is encouraging new generations of racers by making this hobby as accessible as possible, not putting up artificial barriers to entry.


Rant over! :)

[dazp83]

Well said but I don't think anyone's going to change their opinion on this. Just go round and round.

[Mike Haswell]

The is a thread going on the GT12 FB page and this nugget came up:-

>>Regarding Turnigy homologation, the UK distributor was invited to submit speedos on the 8th January and passed the request to 'higher management' who declined. For cells, no samples have EVER been submitted and the only enquiry to come from the distributor fell flat as they could not provide a UN test report.<<

[Jaf]

OH Dear,
Homologation is not to stop Lipo Fires.

It's a set of rules to make sure all equipment is to a set design size and standard.
It limits the cost to you the driver, the added benifit is you have full Insurance cover by complying with BRCA rules.

Its pretty obvious the guys who don't understand this have not been racing for many years. It used to be a lot more expensive!! the EB board actually help minimise cost!!!

I use 2 lipo packs in all the classes i race, they are on the list and have not been replaced for 2 years. they work well still.

Any one who is arguing the cost is too high at less than £100 for 1 year plus of fair homologated racing does not get racing!!!!

The only reason not to get a Lipo on the list is if it does not comply with the spec. So ask yourself again why are the cheap Lipo not on the list? Because they do not comply with the industry standard that the major manufacturers adhere too! and that can be very expensive! for example, We submitted Team Orion 1s lipo for Homologation that failed due to being slightly oversize! It should not have been a big problem you may think? Well we just got thousands of lipos made that are now not approved!!!. To compensate we gave every customer who purchased one a free Homologated Lipo. I don't want to mention the cost but that's what we did to be fair!!!

If the EB board did not exist our lipo would have been used, next month another manufacturer would bring out one 1mm bigger to squeeze more MH
and so and so on till the lipo became oversize and starts not to fit the cars they was designed for.
Then what do the Car manufacturers do? they start to make different cars to fit bigger or different shaped Lipos. and so on and so on. This means to be competitive you have to keep buying new Lipos and cars just because there is no control!!!
And if anyone thinks this is stupid then think again as this is actually what happend for many years! Nimh became very dangerous and cost to keep updating your cells with latest just to keep up with the quick guy at the club was £500 to £2000 per year! It did happen and we remember it! It is our JOB to let The uneducated know that and accept it!!!!
So we better apologise as we failed!

And that's my first Post not making fun of the guys who do not know! for that i apologise.:blush:


Neil, please can you clarify this a bit as I'm a little confused/concerned.

Are you talking about the Team Orion Carbon Pro 7200 100C 1S?

If so, the original announcement said that it wasn't approved due to an admin error (wasn't submitted in time) and that you were supplying an nVision battery of exactly the same specification to people and would resubmit it for use in 2015.

As it said it was exactly the same specification as the approved nVision battery, I have recently purchased some on the understanding that although not approved for BRCA events now, that they would be approved for 2015. Is this not the case? If they have actually failed, how does it effect the nVision battery (assuming it is exactly the same specification as previously said)? Is that no longer approved?

Many thanks

[terry.sc]

The is a thread going on the GT12 FB page and this nugget came up:-

>>Regarding Turnigy homologation, the UK distributor was invited to submit speedos on the 8th January and passed the request to 'higher management' who declined. For cells, no samples have EVER been submitted and the only enquiry to come from the distributor fell flat as they could not provide a UN test report.<<It looks like we've got an answer to why their lipos won't be on the homologation list.

This doesn't mean the cells have not been tested, nor does it mean they failed the tests. They should have passed those tests so they can be allowed to go by air.

So the cost to Hobbyking isn't the £40 for homologation, it's the UN test report they will have to provide for every pack they want to submit.

[mark christopher]

If HobbyKing/Turnigy have ROAR approved lipo's can these be used at UK BRCA sanctioned meetings (regionals/nationals) ?

( I am assuming Regionals are BRCA sanctioned meetings, but I get the feeling the clubs/regions can/do pick)

Are there special rules for visiting international drivers ?

Sorry I don't know the nittygritty and cannot be bothered to try and look it up myself.

no

assuming and carnt be bothered to look it up! good effort!




Well it doesn't seem they're interested as I messaged them and they replied with some sponsorship nonsense. They have stands at the big model shows so I'll ask someone at one of those if nothing before.

they can not provide the required un test paper work which to me is a bit dubious

Another quick reply without thinking, if the lipo's are ROAR or EFRA approved (and I don't know if they have the same system) then they won't be on the EBHL list - my question was and still is if they are ROAR or EFRA stickered can they be used at BRCA sanctioned meetings or would a visiting racer need UK stickered batteries. (I think earlier in the thread it was suggested the Turnigy lipo's were ROAR approved, "interesting to know how their products were roar approved" was the line.)

And as stated above, just like most posts in this thread that are just 'a guess' or 'I would think' I cannot be bothered to try and look it up myself. (sorry if this reads like I am having a go at you RC Kev, I am not, just half this thread seems to be conjecture at best).

no
the new packs are not roar approved either only the older ones
another good effort!

[JCJC]

Thanks Mark, long time since I was given a good effort, gold star next, :D

You know how it is, don't want too many facts to muddle this thread, what's the fun in that.

[SlowOne]

Thanks Mark, long time since I was given a good effort, gold star next, :D

You know how it is, don't want too many facts to muddle this thread, what's the fun in that.OK, now I DO need a like button!! :D :D

[Mike Haswell]

And it has never been an EFRA, IFMAR or BRCA requirement to have their 'Approved' stickers on them. Even ROAR has dropped that requirement from their rules.

[racingdwarf]

I think some people forget where we sit in this relationship. For any large RC business racers are a tiny, tiny market. We are surrounded by microscopic companies that rely desperately on us racers and forget that actually the vast majority of RC's never see a track.

Hobbyking won't submit Turnigy lipos because they don't want to be the official importers. Whilst they are the main source for them they aren't exclusive and most other sources aren't in the UK. Technically they aren't liable for anything not sold through their UK warehouse (even their own overseas stuff doesn't count) but proving where it came from could be hard. Since they sell plenty of packs as it is, going for approval will probably cost them more money than they make in extra sales.
After all racing is a tiny part of their business. Hell lipos for cars (racing or not) is a very small fraction full stop!


Totally agree, the reason people would like these on the list is they are cheep, but hobby king sat back and said why bother, we sell bucket loads with no need to make things complicated, they are all about selling large quantities of stuff cheep,they buy them in cheep thus probably why they have not the required paper work, and yes a they probably worked out that if they took responsibility for a cheep lipo it may only be a matter of time before an insurance company came knocking maybe the reason a proper lipo carrying all paper work costs what it does to cover the liability cover should it burn a sports centre down!

[Neil Skull]

Neil, please can you clarify this a bit as I'm a little confused/concerned.

Are you talking about the Team Orion Carbon Pro 7200 100C 1S?

If so, the original announcement said that it wasn't approved due to an admin error (wasn't submitted in time) and that you were supplying an nVision battery of exactly the same specification to people and would resubmit it for use in 2015.

As it said it was exactly the same specification as the approved nVision battery, I have recently purchased some on the understanding that although not approved for BRCA events now, that they would be approved for 2015. Is this not the case? If they have actually failed, how does it effect the nVision battery (assuming it is exactly the same specification as previously said)? Is that no longer approved?

Many thanks

Hi,
So the original Batch of team Orion was oversize due to bad tooling of the case, We had new tooling made and new ones made to correct sizes for sale and for submitting again, but Oscar Jansen forget to re-submit in time for the 12th Season. Any you have purchased are fully ok. I have recently reminded Oscar (team Orion) to re-submit in the December Window.

As you can see Missing a deadline or finding a problem Can be very expensive!
Not to mention all the paperwork for EU regulations and Testing for the approval standards of each Country.

[Jaf]

Excellent, thanks Neil!

[StwBald]

Quick question to the boffins

Will I need BRCA reg cells and motors to compete in the regionals next year..??

Cheers

[mark christopher]

Quick question to the boffins

Will I need BRCA reg cells and motors to compete in the regionals next year..??

Cheers

yes you will

[Crazy L]

Ah man!! Re-arrange the following words into a sentence.

Model, grown, batteries, arguing, car, over, men.

Why don't you all just read the bloody handbook. There's your rules. Now pack it in please, it's old now.

[leelar]

I looking to buy some new Shorty's and would like to know when the new list is out :)

[mark christopher]

Normally in new year Jan Feb time

[Chesty]

The new BRCA battery list is out and some of the Hobbyking LiPos are on the list, should please some of the posters in this thread:p

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/BRCAchairman/2015%20BRCA%202S%20Stick%20LiPo%20List%20%2812-15%29%20v1%20pdf2.pdf

http://www.brca.org/sites/www.brca.org/files/library_files/BRCAchairman/2015%20BRCA%202S%20Saddle%20LiPo%20List%20%2811-15%29%20v1%20pdf_0.pdf

[cmgreen]

Watch the price sky rocket!

[wookieewonder]

http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__51840__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_4600mah_2S2P_9 0C_Hardcase_Lipo_Short_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.ht ml

Shorty pack £27 .07p from the UK warehouse:thumbsup:

I take it older versions, ie nano A spec are still not approved?

[dazp83]

Just the ultimates, don't forget they have 5mm bullets. But you can solder in a 4mm female bullet.

[i4n]

Just the ultimates, don't forget they have 5mm bullets. But you can solder in a 4mm female bullet.

By doing that, wouldn't you then be changing the pack and invalidating the homologisation?

It's an ingenious solution but I'm just wondering what would be said at a national if you'd done that.......

[wookieewonder]

Looks like they come with 4mm adapters. *Edit, sorry looks like they come with spare 5mm plugs not 4mm adapters

[Chesty]

http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__51840__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_4600mah_2S2P_9 0C_Hardcase_Lipo_Short_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.ht ml

Shorty pack £27 .07p from the UK warehouse:thumbsup:

I take it older versions, ie nano A spec are still not approved?

It says £25.10 on the UK page, and if you leave the page open for a few minutes a 'one time offer' appears on the right bringing it down to about £22.

http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__63086__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_4600mah_2S2P_9 0C_Hardcase_Lipo_Short_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.ht ml

:thumbsup:

[dazp83]

Be interesting to know what scrutenerring would say regarding the bullet. You're not altering the battery so shouldn't matter really.
Have ordered a set of saddles so will see if they come with the adapter, and there's a uk sale on At the moment.

[cmgreen]

Kinda shows the true price of lipos then.......

[alex97]

It shows the poor quality of the battery's, ive had four sets of nano tec saddle packs and within 4 months they had both started to puff. They were balance charged and store charged everytime. This really put me to off the nano tec batterys.

I've had a set of £24 gens ace saddles for the last 15 months and there is zero sign of them puffing and they still feel good.

The QC at Hobbyking is very poor as is the quality a lot of their products.

[tyreman]

http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__51840__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_4600mah_2S2P_9 0C_Hardcase_Lipo_Short_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.ht ml

Shorty pack £27 .07p from the UK warehouse:thumbsup:

I take it older versions, ie nano A spec are still not approved?


I think you'll find that their UK warehouse isn't actually where the stock is held, take a few minutes to scroll through the general section and see the problems people are having with HobbyKing.

[dazp83]

I think you'll find that their UK warehouse isn't actually where the stock is held, take a few minutes to scroll through the general section and see the problems people are having with HobbyKing.


The warehouse is in Ipswich, you can go pick your order up if you want. Plus you can have next day delivery.
And I have some gens ace and they are better than the nanos I have, though I have some old nanos and they are still good and no swelling.

[wookieewonder]

I'm your typical on a shoestring racer. Been using Turnigy (dirtiest word in rc racing) everything for over 2 years. Motor , servo, esc , Lipo , charger, tools all Turnigy Trackstar / nano tech A spec. None of it has ever let me down . I've even reverse polled the esc/Lipo, fine no problems. I own just one nano tech Lipo , charge it between every heat. no balance problems or puffing in 2 years . Maybe I've been lucky with their products. I do agree their customer support is non-existent though!

[DynaMight]

I wish I held off buying my new batteries now.

I recently upgraded my car so required all new batteries, previously I had some Turnigy stick batteries, not the A-Spec ones, just normal Nano-tech, and they had been fine. Not swelled in over a year, great for the £20 I paid.

I didnt want to spend lots of cash on new batteries and wanted BRCA legal ones to save hassle if I did BRCA events, plus there was some talk about one of my local clubs going BRCA legal only! so I went with some GensAce saddle packs.

My old batteries were 5300mAh 30c, the GensAce were 4800mAh 25c but hell, they drain quickly! I have to do two races on one pack and for the past year, the packs went down to 7.8v after two races, so almost perfect storage charge but plenty of juice left if required.

After just one race the GensAce are about 7.7v! although thankfully they do just about manage 2 races but means I cant do any laps prior to the heat just incase. I'm pretty sure those 500mAh difference between the two batteries isnt the whole reason.

if only I had waited, I could have had 6000mAh 90c battery for an extra £8

[K-Brewer]

If ur on about the 6000mah gens ace ive heard they are to tall to fit in most cars

[DarkHawk]

It shows the poor quality of the battery's, ive had four sets of nano tec saddle packs and within 4 months they had both started to puff. They were balance charged and store charged everytime. This really put me to off the nano tec batterys.

I've had a set of £24 gens ace saddles for the last 15 months and there is zero sign of them puffing and they still feel good.

The QC at Hobbyking is very poor as is the quality a lot of their products.

I know a lot of people who run these batteries with no problems and you have to remember all lipo can puff.

[mark christopher]

http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__51840__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_4600mah_2S2P_9 0C_Hardcase_Lipo_Short_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.ht ml

Shorty pack £27 .07p from the UK warehouse:thumbsup:

I take it older versions, ie nano A spec are still not approved?

Believe it or not only the batteries shown on the list are all legal from 1april (for the new additions)

[mattr]

Funny really, the only batteries I've had puff were my two most expensive, approved packs.
An Intellect saddle and an Orion saddle.
My cheap nasty turnigys and gens ace have been fine. Quite a few are on their second owner (or third) and still going strong.

[mpg200]

I have been reading this thread since the beginning, and while I initially voted yes, I changed my mind and can see why the list is there. Being able to see the common sense of the arguments in the fog of forum dribble took some doing but I made it. Some very well put arguments. But rather than do nothing, I wrote to hobbyking and suggested they submit batteries for homologation. I explained to them about the BRCA list and the potential market they were missing out on. So while I have no idea whether my correspondence made a difference, I am feeling a bit smug. The point is rather than rant about it, do something about it. It may be that because of this thread hobbyking received a torrent of emails asking for homologation.

[dazp83]

I messaged them as well, got something back about sponsorship.

[JCJC]

I asked as well, guess a few of us encouraged them, lets hope they can see the system works for them and that these batteries are easy for racers to get.

5mm bullets seem to be available (sample) (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9194__EC5_5mm_Connector_Pair_.html)

[h0m3sy]

If it ain't broke then don't try and fix it

[zoaman]

well I think that the brca should take a fresh look at the batteries already listed. I have bought several lrp 1s saddles recently and have had to have them all replaced.then 3/4 weeks down the road same again swelling and really swelling.1 discharge per Friday night then recharged the following week after storage.so £65+ for them I will defo go with a cheaper brand and take my chances

[xfactor]

well I think that the brca should take a fresh look at the batteries already listed. I have bought several lrp 1s saddles recently and have had to have them all replaced.then 3/4 weeks down the road same again swelling and really swelling.1 discharge per Friday night then recharged the following week after storage.so £65+ for them I will defo go with a cheaper brand and take my chances

Totally agree,

I had two 2s LRP shorty packs swell after 1 charge at 4amps. I have used nano-tech now for nearly a year and are the same size as when purchased and less than half the price. If it means I cant do regionals then so be it, but would rather my house stay in one piece as the ones on the list I wont be buying again..........

[CHEVY]

Got 2 1s lrp 6300 discharge at 7amp down to 3.6-7 for storage voltage
no problem with swelling had problem with reedy 1s

[HOTSHOT III]

Just the ultimates, don't forget they have 5mm bullets. But you can solder in a 4mm female bullet.

Mine came with 5mm-4mm adaptors so you can retain your 4mm ESC/charging connectors if you wish:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I got some 5mm connectors at the same time but i'll be using the adaptors until the batteries are all broken in and i'm happy with them

[dazp83]

Yeah so did mine, the ultimates are really good batteries. Had my sv2 flipping over and my other batteries didn't do it.

[SlowOne]

Pointing at the BRCA and its list is like saying you won't buy a Subaru homologated (listed) rally car because McRae crashed one!

Puffing of LiPos is inevitable - there is nothing you can do to stop it. The process of manufacturing guarantees that because of variations in the chemistry of the LiPo that cannot be controlled perfectly dendrites will grow, they will penetrate the insulators, there will be local gassing and the LiPo will puff.

It doesn't matter who makes it, who puts a case and label around it or who puts it on what list, puffing of LiPos happens all the time and cannot be stopped. That is especially likely in our LiPo construction where everything is at its limits because of the discharge rates we want for racing. Consider what making a LiPo involves in terms of process control in manufacturing...

Lithium-ion cell separators most commonly are porous polyethylene, polypropylene, or composite polyethylene / polypropylene films. These films are typically on the order of 20 um (0.0007”) thick, although thinner (approximately 10 um or 0.0004”) and thicker films can be found (approximately
40 um). That’s 1/3 the thickness of a human hair!

If you'll forgive the technical novel...

Any number of minor defects on a cell anode can cause very localized lithium plating. A few examples include a scratch in the anode, a point of anode delamination, a point of anode over-compression, a thin spot in the anode, or a point where a metallic contaminant has plated. Such lithium plating results in the formation of lithium dendrites (hard crystals) and a mat of “dead lithium” composed of detached lithium dendrites.

Individual dendrite shorting is usually not significant, as resistive heating quickly breaks the dendrite. Resistive heating melts the separator locally which quickly heals over and prevents a dead short. That's one source of the gas that causes the puffing. However, if such shorting and heating occurs in the midst of a mat of dead lithium, it may be possible to ignite sufficient material to initiate an internal short of sufficient size to cause cell thermal runaway.

The amount of plated lithium needed for these situations is tiny - in the microgram region - and will have negligible effect on the behavior of the cell once thermal runaway is initiated. One important aspect of this lithium plating failure mechanism is that lithium dendrite growth only occurs during cell charging, since charging is accomplished by moving lithium ions (Li+) and electrons from the cathode to the anode.

Puffing is a sign that the cell is now not in the best of health and it is really good to see people taking this seriously and replacing their cells.

There's no point in blaming the list or the manufacturers - it is the technology we demand and the inability of the manufacturing process to be perfect all the time that leads to puffing.

Look back to the NiMh cells and ask yourself how many you and to buy in one season to be competitive and (at the end of the development cycle) how many just died on you. You couldn't buy competitive NiMh cells for less than £60 a pack and you'd be lucky if they stayed competitive for half a season and you didn't have the capacity to run flat out for any race length in any class. And as for the maintenance regime...!

Now you have competitive cells that cost around £50 to be competitive, last up to two seasons and take no complex maintenance. In order that they are made to a standard that gives the greatest amount of protection and standardisation to the user through limits on size, enclosure and price, there is a (BRCA) list.

The price you pay for that value, simplicity and standardisation is that some will puff and you have to replace them. Complain all we like, the answer is to suck it up as that is the price we have to pay for this technology.

I hope that helps understand why cells puff and why the list helps us. It seems our inventive people are finding lower-cost competitive alternatives that might not be at the cutting edge of the technology, but as a result are more robust in use. Go for it!! :)

[zoaman]

well all this may be true.but im no chemist yet I do know that after only 4weeks and 6 set of saddles @ £65. per set .and no they wont change them again they say. I feel that some body needs to take a closer look.cheap batteries doing the job (and there is loads of people on here saying that) yet expensive one failing.which way do you think most folk will go. if the cheap ones live up to it y not use them

[SlowOne]

Correct - your post shows you are not a chemist!

No one needs to take a look at it. People need to be informed and understand the situation. I'll make it simpler - if you go for the highest performing version of anything it is more likely to fail than if you go for something that performs at a lower level and is more robust.

We are not victims of some great conspiracy, we are adults who take responsibility for our actions. No one needs to do anything for us here, we need to do it for ourselves. It matters not which way folks go, the market will sort itself out based on the actions of the customers.

If you want information, isn't that what Oople is for?!! :thumbsup: