Old X6

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I noticed on 2wdrc that they are selling off old X6s ready for the new one, does this mean that spares for the old one are going to stop being made.

[General Accident]

Hope not as I've only just started to put my (already obsolete) one together. I know the most common breakages are all B4 bits (front arms / tower etc) but I don't really want to be fretting about busting a rear arm / wing mount or (eeek) a chassis every time I race.

[Big E]

The new arms will fit the old car so don't worry about that.

However if you break a chassis..................

[Spencer Mulcahy]

If you use the new wishbones you will have to get the new shock tower so that all the geometry is right wont you.?

[MikePimlott]

and nose piece's. :o

[Big E]

If you use the new wishbones you will have to get the new shock tower so that all the geometry is right wont you.?

Ideally yeah.

[Spencer Mulcahy]

Thanks for the reply Ellis.

[Darren Boyle]

ALL the old parts that are no longer required ARE now discontinued (ie we are not "making" any more, only using up what we have left already) but dont worry too much since we still have good stocks of all the old bits here in the UK and there is also some hefty stock in the USA at the factory too. ;)

As Ellis has said already, if you break a wishbone, the new ones will fit ("ideally" with the new tower too to keep the geometry correct) IF a chassis (or nosepiece) were to break the new chassis will fit, but you would need extra parts too (servo mounting, battery strap/mountings and rear hinge pin bushings) but it is NEVER a ludicrous cost (compared to the original parts) to change/upgrade your car from old spec to new as breakages occurr. At NO point is the old car rendered useless if somthing breaks, the new parts will carry across all of the time.... (dont forget thos ONLY applied when both we "UK" and the Factory in the USA have both run out altogether, which will be a while yet!!!) :D

A full list of the "discontinued" parts is being uploaded to the X-factory UK website this evening (any description with "disc" after the product denotes a discontinued line - just type disc in our search to see them all) :o

[YoungChazz]

We will continue to have parts for the original X - 6 for sale as long as stocks remain, and I think many of the Dealer Family will have them too.

We have a decent supply of #1002 nosepieces and #3010 control arms, the X Factory parts which break most frequently. The General Accident (Are there several Colonel Accidents who report to him?) is correct that most breakages are the AE front end stuff.

We have only a few #3311 shock towers and #1001 chassies remaining so, if you want to continue campaigning the original X - 6, you might want to pick up a spare now. I think there is inventory of those parts in the Dealer Family too

Finally, we and the Dealers still have small stocks of the #8009 original body for those who still like that swept-back look.

And, Ellis is, as always, right on. The Squared arms and tower do fit, and should be replaced at first in tandem.

[SHY]

The new arms will fit the old car so don't worry about that.

However if you break a chassis..................

New rear arms? How are they different? And what's the idea behind the new geometry?

[CCristo]

The new arms are interchangable left to right.

[Cooper]

which means they are flat and don't have the hump.

[strobe]

And, Ellis is, as always, right on. The Squared arms and tower do fit, and should be replaced at first in tandem.[/quote]

Could you do these 2 items as a tandem pack.
Original X6 owners may not have the Funds to purchase a new Squared version kit.

[YoungChazz]

The primary advantages to the X - 6 Squared are quality and better design. Take a look at an X - 60 and tell me: Would you rather have that chassis or the original X - 6? Would you rather have that battery strap or the new CF one? Do you prefer to install the nose piece or do you like the one-piece chassis? Do you really like drilling and counter-sinking holes to mount your servo? Do you prefer the bottom covers or the brass bushing?

Then ask yourself this question: If I were a manufacturer of R/C cars, and if I were making both the X - 6 and the X - 60, and if I could turn the X - 60 into a buggy which would be far better quality at reasonable cost, would I continue to sell the original X - 6? If I were a very small young company and had just spent a ton of money to significantly upgrade the quality of one product, whould I want to continue selling another lower-quality product? Because the fact is, that when you put the original X - 6 alongside the X - 6 Squared, nobody will buy the original unless the price is reduced substantially, which it is.

Does that mean the original X - 6 is a bad car? No!

Does that mean the original X - 6 is slow? No!

Does that mean you can't win with an original X - 6? No!

The suspension geometry of the X - 6 Squared is identical to the original X - 6 but we have improved on it with additional down travel. The new car has fewer parts to assemble and is lighter but stronger.

The mold for #3010 control arms needs much work before it can be used again. Everybody has seen the flashing on the arms. And because of the way it was made, that mold costs twice as much to run and will never produce arms the quality of the #3012 X - 6 Squared arms. We spent about the same amount on the new tool as we would have to re-furbish the old one and got far better arms. You have to like that.

We worked hard to keep the performance of the two cars identical. The Squared is lighter, but with LiPo both cars need ballast to make weight, so even the weight as raced is identical.

What's different is quality of the parts, and fewer parts = easier to build and maintain. X Factory has finally moved to the very top of R/C quality, and that's not P/R B.S. In fact, with our chief competitors now built is China, X Factory is probably the best quality 1/10 off-road car you can buy.

X Factory parts rarely break. The AE parts break all the time...

And X Factory continues to be the fastest easiest-to-drive cars out there.

Period.

[Cooper]

*can be deleted*

[SHY]

Sounds good Chazz!

Btw are your ambitions on a long term to make & sell complete cars? Or is your philosophy to stick to conversion kits?

[Paul_Sinclair]

The suspension geometry of the X - 6 Squared is identical to the original X - 6 but we have improved on it with additional down travel.

actually, its additional UP travel. Just want to make sure no one's confused.

[YoungChazz]

Shy, we've got to get the Squared shipped and out there, then we've got several more new things immediately in the pipeline. Then a big racing season, March through October.

Then, maybe we can catch our breath for a moment, and after the heart rate comes back to something within 20% of normal, we'll look at the next major project.

[grelland]

The primary advantages to the X - 6 Squared are quality and better design. Take a look at an X - 60 and tell me: Would you rather have that chassis or the original X - 6? Would you rather have that battery strap or the new CF one? Do you prefer to install the nose piece or do you like the one-piece chassis? Do you really like drilling and counter-sinking holes to mount your servo? Do you prefer the bottom covers or the brass bushing?

Then ask yourself this question: If I were a manufacturer of R/C cars, and if I were making both the X - 6 and the X - 60, and if I could turn the X - 60 into a buggy which would be far better quality at reasonable cost, would I continue to sell the original X - 6? If I were a very small young company and had just spent a ton of money to significantly upgrade the quality of one product, whould I want to continue selling another lower-quality product? Because the fact is, that when you put the original X - 6 alongside the X - 6 Squared, nobody will buy the original unless the price is reduced substantially, which it is.

Does that mean the original X - 6 is a bad car? No!

Does that mean the original X - 6 is slow? No!

Does that mean you can't win with an original X - 6? No!

The suspension geometry of the X - 6 Squared is identical to the original X - 6 but we have improved on it with additional down travel. The new car has fewer parts to assemble and is lighter but stronger.

The mold for #3010 control arms needs much work before it can be used again. Everybody has seen the flashing on the arms. And because of the way it was made, that mold costs twice as much to run and will never produce arms the quality of the #3012 X - 6 Squared arms. We spent about the same amount on the new tool as we would have to re-furbish the old one and got far better arms. You have to like that.

We worked hard to keep the performance of the two cars identical. The Squared is lighter, but with LiPo both cars need ballast to make weight, so even the weight as raced is identical.

What's different is quality of the parts, and fewer parts = easier to build and maintain. X Factory has finally moved to the very top of R/C quality, and that's not P/R B.S. In fact, with our chief competitors now built is China, X Factory is probably the best quality 1/10 off-road car you can buy.

X Factory parts rarely break. The AE parts break all the time...

And X Factory continues to be the fastest easiest-to-drive cars out there.

Period.

Dear YoungChazz

You probably dont know me, but I am a veteran racer from Norway, not really a top notch driver, but I have managed a few podium finishes over my 25-year career :)

I am relatively new to the 2-wd buggy scene, since I first retired in that class some 15 years ago, but I must start off by giving you credit for being a small manufacturer that focuses on niche products and racing applications more than high volumes and high profit. Also participating in discussions like these gives you a lot of credit im my book.

Lately, I have followed the "trend" towards mid-mounted motors in 2wd, and can just say that I fully appreciate the thinking behind this, partly also because I am quite into full scale aircooled VW's and I have some scary personal experience of what happens whan you start approachin the limits of the same design shorfalls as the "classic" 2wd buggies.

But then to my point...

I find it a little odd, that you use the fact that your competition is manufacturing their parts in China as a sole argument that yours are better... I do have some experiece from my proffessional life in outsourcing manufacturing, and most of the time it is a combination of design, specifications/instruction, and last but not least quality control and surveillance that really dictates the quality of a part, not the location of the factory...

It might be that in the US, you can use "Made in the US" as a quality stamp, but here in Europe, I am afraid you underestimate the competence of your customers by making that simplification. Take the US auto industry, for instance, its reputation here in Europe is that of low quality and old/outdated technology... (I hate to be the one braking that to you.. ;) )

The last few weeks I have been planning what to do for the 2009 season when it comes to chassis selection, and I must say that this post unfortunately made a conversion to the X-6 squared less likely...

Look at it from a customer's perspective: The B4 is still a very good car, it keeps winning races, and the X6 has not revolutionalized the world of 2wd racing. B4's are still winning... I can see the benefits of your design, and for a racer of my skills, and the state of the tracks here in Nowray, I think I personally could benefit from the better stability, but it is a costly upgrade, almost the same price as the B4 itself, and when you start making statements like these:,

"X Factory parts rarely break. The AE parts break all the time...

And X Factory continues to be the fastest easiest-to-drive cars out there.

Period."

I start to think whether this really IS the PR BS you claim ot is not...

As a manufacturer, you should focus on improving your own design, and provide good and accurate information on those products, and not spend your time talking down on you competition, especially not the company that supplies the most wining car out there, and the very same car that I as a customer need to buy first to utilise your products.

[JustARcFan]

SO you also know that associated has been bought out by thunder tiger and the quality is not like before???

[grelland]

yes but I still would claim that if you ask a Chinese manufacturer to manufacture a good quality product, he will do that, but if you ask him to make an inexpensive product he will do that.... It comes back to the fact that you get what you pay for, no matter where the thing is made...

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I asked the question for this thread not to upset people but for my information as I want to run the old car as I have not had this car for very long and I can not afford what I will need to update to the squared. All the upgrades that have happened over the past few years on this car have mounted up to alot of money. At first you needed a B4 donnor car £150 then the convertion £130 this was a three gearbox version then you needed losi shocks on it £40 to £60. Then the four gear conversion came out to upgrade to this was £50 if you wanted to be competative the e-speed parts arrived camber link mod £16 and the motor plate support £12.50 then the losi axels £12.
So now you have spent around £400 pounds to get your car running to how you want and it is going to be discontinued unless you buy the X6 squared upgrade for another £140 so that is standing you at £550.
I think Chaz and Paul have done a fantastic job with the car and they both seem like top blokes but the above is alot of money in my book when you could have bought the fastest car on the planet (not in my hands) six years ago and it would still be just as fast with no upgrades.
I dont want to affend people or anybody related to X-factory but to dicontinue the old car has made me look elswhere for my 2wd.

Spen

[phil c]

I asked the question for this thread not to upset people but for my information as I want to run the old car as I have not had this car for very long and I can not afford what I will need to update to the squared. All the upgrades that have happened over the past few years on this car have mounted up to alot of money. At first you needed a B4 donnor car £150 then the convertion £130 this was a three gearbox version then you needed losi shocks on it £40 to £60. Then the four gear conversion came out to upgrade to this was £50 if you wanted to be competative the e-speed parts arrived camber link mod £16 and the motor plate support £12.50 then the losi axels £12.
So now you have spent around £400 pounds to get your car running to how you want and it is going to be discontinued unless you buy the X6 squared upgrade for another £140 so that is standing you at £550.
I think Chaz and Paul have done a fantastic job with the car and they both seem like top blokes but the above is alot of money in my book when you could have bought the fastest car on the planet (not in my hands) six years ago and it would still be just as fast with no upgrades.
I dont want to affend people or anybody related to X-factory but to dicontinue the old car has made me look elswhere for my 2wd.

Spen
i agree completley , and have just sold mine :cry:

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer (and now Phil....) You have gone to a lot of trouble in your post, which I for one representing X-factory here in the UK appreciate, but I will add to your comments if I may.

You have "added" up all the parts "you" have spent to keep your car rolling along at the very latest and current spec, you describe buying the early X6 3 gear, upgrading etc etc. The 3 gear is 3 (nearly 4) years old. In four seasons "any" of the other manufacturer would most likely also have released several new releases of their car (examples - in four years with a Yokomo 4wd you would of had a MR4BCS, a MR4BX and now a BMAX4, 3 WHOLE cars, with Losi in 2wd you would of had a Losi XXXBK2 and a XXXCR, the list goes on Kyosho 3 4wd's in 4 years, new back end for the Kyosho, TTech several new version sin the time scale, and even the spec of the AE B4 has come though changes, which if you likewise wanted to stay up to date with your model would also cost you money to keep up with times with upgrading etc)

We know the basic design of the B4 is good and popular, this is why we based our car on it. It has had great success, but for our tracks and conditions we firmly believe (we know) the X6 gives it more!!

Dont fall into the PR trap that if somthing new comes out you "have" to have it, you get it because you "want" it or deep down believe that it will make you quicker. To be honest LOSI shocks for one are NOT "needed" but as a team we "prefer" them and hence we use them on both of our cars (one already comes with them - X5) but to add them into the "justified cost of your car is not really true since they are a "must want" and NOT a "must have"

On your list are lots are purchases, totaling £400 as you say, but you have to make some allowance for the amount of equipment also that you own and the amount that you could happily sell off to recover some funds back. For instance the B4 you started with would leave around £100+ worth of (if new/unused) stuff if you didnt use the shocks too (since you have added the Losi ones), when you upgrade to 4 gear, you had lots of 3 gear stuff left etc etc. All of a sudden your 3 year old car (which has had a few "facelifts" along the way now stands you in at a lot less than than £300 which does include "optional parts" (Espeed bits, Losi shocks) that you have chosen to fit) these self same optional parts are avialable for every other make of car on the planet too!!!

Th extra cost for our "2009" spec car - the Squared is still FAR less than buying ANY other new 2wd on the market today (B4 FT £180 at the moment - rumoured to be going up once more, RB5 now £270, XXXCR £245 - these are all the latest RRP's)

My other point is your obviuos dissappointment in the fact we have discontinued the old car and parts, I would like to add two points here.
1. When we use the the word "discontinue" we mean "we will not be MAKING any more" it does not mean no more are available to buy straight away, As has been said we still have good stocks of ALL original X6 parts here in the UK (hell, we STILL have spares for the 3 gear car too!!!!) plus Chazz still has several spares there in the USA too. If you really dont want to upgrade your car you dont "have" to, not yet and probably not for a long time to come. Besides which if you break a wishbone and need to buy them, then get the new ones and upgrade that one little part of the car, likewise with the chassis, if you break that (or nosepiece) buy the new one at that oppurtunity to do so.
2. Most manufacturers do dismantle "production" of old parts for a car when it is obsolete, this is just nromal practise, they often dont tell you, but we believe in being honest and have marked all "discontinued products" online so the public know the full story on them.

I hope you understand a little more now, I am sure that none of you want us to stand still and make no ongoing improvemnets to our products!!! If you have any more concerns or questions then make sure to let us all know, but hopefully you can understand that we always want to improve our product and make it the best that we can and the best that is available on the market, in the X6 Squared we believe it is an improvemnt in quality, simplicity, finish and refinement but as Chazz has already said we are NOT saying it will make you any faster or reliable, we are NOT telling you you really have to buy one, you would only get one because you WANT one, just the same as buying any other new car on the market.....

HTH, Darren

[GRIFF55]

One quick question on the new conversion. Will the longer axles come in the conversion?
Sorry if this is the wrong thread.

Cheers

[Lee]

I can confirm what Darren has said in the last chapter.

I have just finished running the X6 squared today in the 24 hour race and to be honest, i could have been driving my own personal X6, it really didn't feel any different to drive once we had got the weight distribution sorted.

It really is evolution rather than revolution. The car has just been refined.

I wouldn't jump ship, you really will regret it.

[Darren Boyle]

Grelland, if you get a Chinese company to make a product of the same quality it tens to cost about the same, the main reason why people move production there is to save money, but as a whole the quality does tend to suffer, no PR BS here mate

To agree with Chazz's statement about the bits that break on our car ebing the AE, sadly it is true, the "vast" majority of all breakages on our X6 casr are always the parts that are made form AE and since the TT group have owned them and moved production to China there has been a "noticable drop" in quality as noticed by nearly every racer who runs a B4 or X6.

Nobody at X-Factory or representing X-factory is talking down AE, without them as you say our car is nothing, I am also prepared to agree that their parts form a lot of the "front" of our car (which is bound to hit more things and break more parts - agreed) we are just stating which is a fact that WE put a lot of effort into our parts to make tham as durable as can be and when you see one of our cars break it is 99 times out of 100 an AE part which has broke. We are proud of our quality and believe that if WE moved production to China to make the products cheaper it would be at the sacrifice of quality (as has been proven with the latest batch of Losi and AE parts - from China, they just plain and simnple arent as good) which is somthing we are not prepared to do.

I agree with you also 100% about your statemnt "Made in the USA", NO it does not GUARRENTEE quality, YES many parts still made in the USA are POOR and YES the "Made in USA" tag does not wash at all here in Europe, BUT by our parts being "Made in the USA" it gives us full control over them, a chance to liase fully with the tooling companies and injection moulding people, witness production first hand and make changes along the way if we feel the need to, to maintian the high standards I am talking about.

Now I hope you dont consider my comments as PR BS (LOL) and I think my best defence is the proof in the quality of our parts out there today on thousands of our converted cars. It is very rare that we get complaints on our parts and very rare we hear stories from customers who broke blaming an X part for this, my proof is in the hands of the satisfied public

Best Wishes,

Darren

[Spencer Mulcahy]

As I said I dont want to upset anyone Darren but I did under price the B4 in my sums and I think the Losi shocks are a must I know as I ran mine with AE shocks all last year and I was told every outing to get Losi shocks from other X6 drivers I under priced these as well. Same with the E-speed parts they are a must for the car to go as well as others or the team drivers wouldnt run them.
Yes other teams have changed cars a few times in that period but that is because those cars didnt work and they needed changing where the X6 has always worked and when they do bring a new car out you can sell a complete car which is worth more than just parts.

[DaveG28]

Th extra cost for our "2009" spec car - the Squared is still FAR less than buying ANY other new 2wd on the market today (B4 FT £180 at the moment - rumoured to be going up once more, RB5 now £270, XXXCR £245 - these are all the latest RRP's)

Play fair though guys, thats not really a comparison, you also need a b4 or x6 first before your conversion!!

Now, assuming buying a second hand b4 for it is fine, yeah you'd still be cheaper than the RB5 I guess (will the rb5 SP be more again?), maybe the Losi too, so not claiming your dead expensive, just saying its not quite that clear cut! :thumbsup:

If the b4 bits you can sell on are over £100 worth I was d***ed as well, got no where near that for chassis/shocks/gearbox case/bodyshell!! even if you could get that though still makes the x6 squared @£220 doesn't it (basing everything on "new" admittedly!)?

Anyway, this long rambling post is just to say there's not that much difference in prices!!

As for the car change, not many manufacturers warn of that (Rb5SP?) so X factory are no worse than most!! To plug an ex maker, Atomic Carbon did though, top guy, asked me if I wanted to cancel my order when he decided to stop making them!!

[Darren Boyle]

Andy, no they wont, simple reason being not "everyone" uses them, so they are not "needed" in every kit, secondly, they are made for us by MIP and we wish to rely on as few outside manufactueres as possible for our converison so that if only one of them cannot supply it will not bring a halt to our production.

To add to Lee's comments, the lads have today finished the 24 hour race at York with an X6 Squared, which ran really well throghout and mixed it right until the near end with the 4wd buggies (and B4 from AE too)

From what I have been told, we had no faults at all in electronics (thankyou and well done to LRP) we broke several front wishbones and several servo horns as well a few routine gearbox rebuilds, but not a single X-factory made part failed on the car for the entire 24 hours.........

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer, you were bang on with the B4 price mate, £150 is what a B4 Team costs (FT is £190 RRP)

Losi shocks are widely used by many X6 owners, i am not doubting that, but they are NOT essential, they do also give you your AE ones to sell on (to deduct for the price, as I described)

E Speed hangers are fairly widely used but the T piece is just for added strength and added bling, again NOT essential. Team Drivers run them, so people see them and then buy them, the very same reason why any "bling" part is made and/or sold. Take trintiy blue alloy shock collars, definatly not needed but look at how many people ran/run them and yes the team drivers used those too.

Have to disagreee about selling a complete second hand car is the same as selling off new unused parts though. You can "relativley easily" get £100 back from a B4 when you buy a new one for a X6 donor (body/wing/decals, rear wishbones, rear pivot plate, rear pivot block, rear lower chassis, shocks (if you "are" using Losi ones), gearbox case, wing mounts, chassis, kit tyres, rear upper chassis, motor plate, gear cover, rear shock tower, battery strap, rear motor guard etc etc This lot new from a FT kit would cost £216 if brought new in packets and is easily sold at around 1/2 price when it is sold unused which brings in a return of over £100 on your kit purchase. The parts are easily sold due to the sheer number of B4's around the tracks over the years and anyone who does not belive me check out our old for sale thread for proof HERE -http://www.oople.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17530

So if the parts sold off as new fetch around £100+ what does a complete secong hand car fecth after a season??? (£100+ ish)....

Dave , when I said £140, the reply was addressed to Spencer, he stated that it would cost "him" another £140 to make his car up to date for this season, I simply stated that it was less then him buying an all new car. Sorry if it was confusing, but if you re-read it you will see this is what I meant.

I agree with you, we are never saying our car is cheap, far from it, but it is NOT as expensive as £400 if you are sensible on how you go about it as I have outlined. With current prices coming through at £220 ish we could well end up being cheap though :eh?:

We have also "warned" of the new car, since we started making announcemnts that it was coming at Christmas time and it wont be here for a couple of weeks yet which will be Mid/Late February.

Fair play also to AC, but to be honest if any car was stopping being made altogether you would expect this to happen

[Spencer Mulcahy]

This is going to be my last post on the subject, for the new season I was going to replace all the bits on my car that are over 5 years old gears diffs front end parts bearings which is going to be over £50 then the price of the conversion on top which is to rich for me. My price for the B4 would be for the factory team as that is what most poeple would use to upgrade. I am not trying to upset people as I think it is probably the best car out there but for me I race for fun not to win(not good enough to win anything)and I cant afford to keep chucking money at it when the next upgrade comes out.

Au revoir Spen.

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Spen,
Afore ye go - Now I'm really confused.

I've no allegiance here nor axe to grind. Like you, I race because it's fun first and foremost. But it seems that you've become upset and - dare I say, are threatening to cut off you nose to spike your face.

I've seen the squared and the quality is unbelievably lush but why not simply rebuild your car and opt for the revised wishbones and tower - if you really feel you need something squared on your car at all? Non handed wishbones are great - especially for those on a budget and it's nice to see a manufacturer reducing the impact of having to carry loads of different spares. However, it seems as if most people (especially those who wish to use the team driver's set ups) may want to upgrade to the rear tower at the same time to keep the damping feel/geometry similar to the non-squared.
You've got the go faster goodies - you've got countless hours of experience with the chassis and you're about to abandon all this because you want - but can't afford the latest version?? That's the bit that doesn't make sense to me.

I want a 24inch imac - with a dual or quad core processor to replace may aging G5 - or an ipod touch because my ipod photo is now too fat but the bottom line is that they still do a darn good job for me - and when they NEED replacing, I'll replace them with whatever is current at the time - full in the knowledge that they too will become obsolete.

Change cars by all means if you want a change or fancy something different but don't do something hasty simply because what you've got is no longer the most current version.
The cult of the X has really reached new levels in recent months - and, as an early adopter, maybe you feel somewhat upset that all these newbies are profiting from the hard work and effort that you and countless other 3-gear owners have invested.

Don't forget also though that the 'family' offers one of the most active support forums on the planet and spares are superbly handled and easy to obtain nowadays (cue Darren).

Take a step back for a while - have a beer maybe and have a think...

Like I say - no axe to grind, no allegiance either. Try a different car if you fancy a change - it seems that the RB5 is a favorite at the moment - but don't do it out of spite or in resistance to change.

PS - If you are like me, then your X6 won't be any slower next time you take it out anyway - whether there's a squared, a cubic or whatever version:D

[Darren Boyle]

Kinda what I have been trying to say, but far better put and coming from someone like you Andy who is not "invloved " with X-Factory.....

[SHY]

Darren, I'd only wish we had at least one shop like yours here in Norway! Your commitment and service is on the borderline to madness! :lol:

But you and Chazz really should reconsider saying anything negative at all about other manufacturers. That's the first rule you learn in sales. Never do it! It always comes around... ;) No matter what you're selling, always say that the other brands make great stuff! (Even if it IS a lie!) There is 0,0000% to gain on doing otherwise!!! And bragging about the competition also makes it natural to brag about your own stuff! ;) And look back in time and compare the old cars with todays! Today's cars are top notch, all of them!

Let me do a quick explanation of the psychology behind it... I started my working life as a car salesman. When someone walks into your store they're obviously interested in buying cars that you sell. A natural question to ask the customer is what car(s) he has previously owned. And what other cars he's considering. If you say anything at all negative about one of the cars he's had or is considering buying your implying a lot of things:
-he's an idiot for choosing that car. And if he's had it for 10 years he's really...
-if he's been really satisfied with it he feels you're lying. And won't trust you...
-you give a first impression of being somewhat of a nagging negative person...
-he gets the feeling you're pissed because they're selling more than you...

So... K.I.S.S.! (Keep It Simple Stupid) - Be nice, always positive and give them a hell of a test drive! If they like you AND the car they simply buy it...

I've had X-Factory parts break on some tracks like you woldn't belive it, whilst AE and Losi cars were in one piece (not crashes, just driving). But I still highly recommend your cars & service! Why stick your heads so far out ? :lol:

And I 100% agree with Grelland! Don't blame the Chinese either! They make EXACTLY the quality you ask them to AND pay for! If the quality has gone down after moving production to Asia then it's because they've been asked to "make it cheaper" (actually a lot cheaper in that case, since production costs are lower in Asia). That being said I've not experienced any drop in the quality of AE parts, and I haven't heard any other guys around here say so either...

And we all know that times are hard. It's often a matter of moving production to Asia or going bankrupt... Take Serpent for instance, I know they've been struggling for a while. OTOH I've been to their production facilities in Holland. Neither was I impressed with the technology, speed or quality - even if it was NOT made in Asia. You still had to drill and heat parts to get a good fit. From my experience the best build quality, fit and durability I've experienced is Mugen Seiki (Japanese).

@Paul: Uptravel yes, that makes sense! :D It already has some SERIOUS downtravel!

@Chazz: Cool! I liked that answer... :rolleyes:

[matt]

After reading this i still cant see why there is no upgrade kit for currant x6 owners:confused:. They did this for the X5 that used a lot of new parts.

[grelland]

Grelland, if you get a Chinese company to make a product of the same quality it tens to cost about the same, the main reason why people move production there is to save money, but as a whole the quality does tend to suffer, no PR BS here mate

To agree with Chazz's statement about the bits that break on our car ebing the AE, sadly it is true, the "vast" majority of all breakages on our X6 casr are always the parts that are made form AE and since the TT group have owned them and moved production to China there has been a "noticable drop" in quality as noticed by nearly every racer who runs a B4 or X6.

Nobody at X-Factory or representing X-factory is talking down AE, without them as you say our car is nothing, I am also prepared to agree that their parts form a lot of the "front" of our car (which is bound to hit more things and break more parts - agreed) we are just stating which is a fact that WE put a lot of effort into our parts to make tham as durable as can be and when you see one of our cars break it is 99 times out of 100 an AE part which has broke. We are proud of our quality and believe that if WE moved production to China to make the products cheaper it would be at the sacrifice of quality (as has been proven with the latest batch of Losi and AE parts - from China, they just plain and simnple arent as good) which is somthing we are not prepared to do.

I agree with you also 100% about your statemnt "Made in the USA", NO it does not GUARRENTEE quality, YES many parts still made in the USA are POOR and YES the "Made in USA" tag does not wash at all here in Europe, BUT by our parts being "Made in the USA" it gives us full control over them, a chance to liase fully with the tooling companies and injection moulding people, witness production first hand and make changes along the way if we feel the need to, to maintian the high standards I am talking about.

Now I hope you dont consider my comments as PR BS (LOL) and I think my best defence is the proof in the quality of our parts out there today on thousands of our converted cars. It is very rare that we get complaints on our parts and very rare we hear stories from customers who broke blaming an X part for this, my proof is in the hands of the satisfied public

Best Wishes,

Darren

I have to agree with SHY here, about the dedication you as a distributor/dealer show, it is second to none, and to me that is a proof that you really believe in your product, and that is a very good signal to give me as a customer.

And now that we agree that just moving production to China will not necessarily reduce quality, and that "Made in the USA" does not automatically mean a higher quality, the only thing we now need to settle is this issue with talking down on your competition ;)

If we settle that also, the only thing that remains for me will be to purchase a kit for my one-race-old FT B4, and be convinced that the X6suared is as good as people say :lol:

Keep up the good work !

Roy

[MikePimlott]

I have to agree with SHY here, about the dedication you as a distributor/dealer show, it is second to none

Id like to know who indtroduced him to oOple :p

[Darren Boyle]

Roy/SHY Thanks for the input from Norway guys!!!! LOL
I do need to clarify one thing....I have NOT put down any other brands "car", for the record the B4 is a SUPERB car (I have already said this tonight, which is why we based the X6 on it!!!!) and I am sure Chazz feels the same.

I have said that the quality of OUR parts is superior in many ways (on most parts now) and the most common parts we break on our X6 are the AE ones (This does not say at all that they are bad nor weak, they just happen to be the ones that break and the ones that we have NO control over, either quality or strength!!) If you guys have not witnessed the poorer quality from AE more recently then you may well want to read through some of the numerous threads here on oOPle that mention it, it does exist!!

Matt
The X5 to X5 Squared conversion uses just a few new parts - chassis, pro-proto covers, new body/decal and until recenlty thats it!!! Now we include the latest diff pullies too, a grand total of just 5 parts. The cost of the "upgrade" is £79.99 RRP here, whereas the whole X5 Squared kit (XX4 version) is £174.99, far more expensive.
As regards the X6 Squared, there are many more changes which add up to far more money (chassis, carbon battery strap, mounting hardware, rear hinge pin bushings, rear wishbones, carbon rear shock tower, body and decals - 7 items AND most are the expensive bits too) The cost of these parts alone is over £110 and yet the whole converison kit (everything to convert a B4 or older X6 from scratch) is going to be on the shops shelves at around £139.95 (just £30 more, which is too close to justify an update kit AND a full kit they would be FAR too close together in price)
For that extra £30 differnace you get - wing, 2 wing mounts, all required hardware, new AE idler gear, 2 idler bearings, idler shaft, set of anti squat shims, 2 rear hinge pins, rear 3 and 4 degree rear pivot blocks, gearbox casings, motor plate, rear bulkhead, 6 threaded inserts, motor T piece, gearbox height spacers etc which adds up to around £95 seperatly, so it really is not a bad deal......

[Darren Boyle]

Id like to know who indtroduced him to oOple :p

Who me?? For good reasons I hope......:blush:

[SHY]

the quality of OUR parts is superior in many ways (on most parts now)

Seriously, this is both arrogant and false in my opinion! And if you are right, why not let people find that out by themselves? You're doing nothing but shooting yourself in the foot here...

Some of my "results":

X-5 chassis cracked in 3(!) places during a race (large jumps, no crashes). That was almost embarassing after having bragged about the car so much...

DDP hinge pins on the X-6 snapped right off (never happend on ANY other of my cars before)...

X-6 chassis broke on the first race (again no crash)...

Every time I tell this you guys reply "that's strange" and "never happened to us". That really does not help me at all...

Come on! We're not born yesterday! There is NO perfect car, neither is the X-5 or X-6!!! Don't get me started on the X-5 belt skipping or old pulleys...

You also know that a well designed chassis has to have some weak points! It's better that one piece breaks off in stead of you bending everything! On the B4 you eat front lower wishbones for breakfast. And I think that's perfectly OK! Why don't you make your perfect version that never breaks? With free replacement parts maybe? :p

Maybe I drive like an idiot and our climate is out of the ordinary... but your plastic is NOT fantastic! :lol: Neither is this attitude! IMHO the graphite chassises were way too brittle. Maybe it's better now... but I sure as hell wouldn't make these statements...

Now stop it please and come to your senses! I was finally about to have some company over here from some other X-cars... If you continue like this I'll still be all alone... ;)

[Darren Boyle]

I think you are misunderstanding and "maybe" misreading what I have said.

This WHOLE thread is about the quality and design of our NEW X6 SQUARED nothing else. Everything I have talked about is to do with this model only, which I stand by EVERYTHING that I have said, not arrogant, just fact (which is why I have put - "on most parts now", meaning the latest parts we have just made for the X6 Squared) so not really shooting myself in the foot at all, just being misquoted....

X-Factory have come a LONG way since they first started out with the early X5, we improved this with the X5 Squared, improved again with the early X6, once more with the X60 and now even further, to the point we are proud of what we have on the X6 Squared. That is all we are saying.

I do not doubt you have the problems with your X5 you have mentioned nor the problem with your early X6 chassis, but the quality on those was at the time "ordinary" and "satisfactory" (nothing special), the new X6 Squared stuff is though is superb, everyone who has seen it already has said so, we are not just saying it oursleves (see Gnarly Old Doggs post on this very thread). We are not sat here telling you "our stuff has always been better" we ARE saying " the new X6 Squared stuff is superb"........

Dont joke about the B4 front wishbones, we might just be working on it already.........

So please read what I have written "carefully" since I am being mis-quoted and mis-understood, when you get to see the X6 Squared in the flesh you will fully understand what we have been talking about.......

[Body Paint]

Seriously, this is both arrogant and false in my opinion! And if you are right, why not let people find that out by themselves? You're doing nothing but shooting yourself in the foot here...

Some of my "results":

X-5 chassis cracked in 3(!) places during a race (large jumps, no crashes). That was almost embarassing after having bragged about the car so much...

DDP hinge pins on the X-6 snapped right off (never happend on ANY other of my cars before)...

X-6 chassis broke on the first race (again no crash)...

Every time I tell this you guys reply "that's strange" and "never happened to us". That really does not help me at all...

Come on! We're not born yesterday! There is NO perfect car, neither is the X-5 or X-6!!! Don't get me started on the X-5 belt skipping or old pulleys...

You also know that a well designed chassis has to have some weak points! It's better that one piece breaks off in stead of you bending everything! On the B4 you eat front lower wishbones for breakfast. And I think that's perfectly OK! Why don't you make your perfect version that never breaks? With free replacement parts maybe? :p

Maybe I drive like an idiot and our climate is out of the ordinary... but your plastic is NOT fantastic! :lol: Neither is this attitude! IMHO the graphite chassises were way too brittle. Maybe it's better now... but I sure as hell wouldn't make these statements...

Now stop it please and come to your senses! I was finally about to have some company over here from some other X-cars... If you continue like this I'll still be all alone... ;)

I hate to say this SHY, but this comes accross as arrogant and false in my opinion. :rolleyes:

I spent several hours on the transmission when building my new X-5 squared a couple of weeks ago and all I had to touch when I put it on track was the slipper, it's had several runs and is still spot on. But that's not what we're debating here.

Maybe what DMS is saying was lost in translation, but what he is saying is that the new X6 squared parts, which you may not have seen yet, are of outstanding quality.

[YoungChazz]

I'm sorry if some of what I've said has caused concern. Some people seem to have problems with my second post on page one, so can we look at what I actually said?

The very first sentence: "The primary advantages to the X - 6 Squared are quality and better design."

A bit further down: "The suspension geometry of the X - 6 Squared is identical to the original X – 6."

Then, "We worked hard to keep the performance of the two cars identical."

The entire reason for both my posts was to reassure Spencer and everyone else that the original X - 6 is not obsolete. "Does that mean the original X - 6 is a bad car? No! Does that mean the original X - 6 is slow? No! Does that mean you can't win with an original X - 6? No!" Check the performance of the original X - 6 at the recent Petit race, where Team driver Bruno Heremans won the B with Team driver Cyril Baldini right behind him driving literally his first-ever 2WD race.

We believe that if you are not a National A main driver, you will have a great time with the original X - 6 for years to come. There is very little performance difference if any between the original car and the Squared.

If you currently own an X - 6, you are not required to run out and buy a Squared to remain competitive. Now you may want the better quality, you may want the easier building and maintenence, or you may just want to have the latest stuff, all of which are perfectly good reasons to buy the new Squared. But it's entirely your choice. And that's the whole point: X Factory gives you a choice.

"We worked hard to keep the performance of the two cars identical." X Factory are doing exactly the opposite of other companies, especially some on-road companies who seem to release a new car every year that obsoletes the old one. Our new model, as we have stated repeatedly, is mostly a quality upgrade, not performance. The same was true of the X - 5 Squared.

And unlike some other companies, we don't keep the new car a secret until the last minute so people pay full price for the original car and are surprised to find a new one released the next day. There have been 6 weeks' advance notice, and we have put remaining stock of the original car on sale at a massive discount to the price of the Squared. We will sell the original parts as long as we have them, and the new parts all fit the original car. How many other companies do this?

The one thing uppermost in our mind every day is to make racing as much fun as possible for The Family. That means the highest quality and the fastest cars at the lowest possible price.

We have made Upgrade Kits where it was reasonable to do so, and nobody else does that. Remember when Losi produced the xx-CR rear end and forced everyone to buy a whole new kit? The old cars were completely outdated.

When we did the two Upgrade Kits (X - 5 Squared and 4-Gear) we wondered if, by doing this favor for The Family, we were setting expectations that could never be matched later...

There were three sentences at the end of the second post that I would write differently now, and I appreciate this lesson form you guys. It's a mistake I'll try not to make again.

"In fact, with our chief competitors now built is China, X Factory is probably the best quality 1/10 off-road car you can buy.

X Factory parts rarely break. The AE parts break all the time."

Even though I will try not to write a sentence like those again, I stand by their content.

As Darren has said, I too don't know anybody who does not believe that the Losi & AE stuff made in China is of lesser quality than their former U.S. made stuff. Does anybody remember the first EA3 parts? In private conversations with Team drivers, many of them agree. This has nothing to do with dissing China -- you're right, they can and do make great stuff. But there is a definite quality difference in the Losi & AE parts, and most drivers know it.

And our new parts, for the X - 60 and X - 6 Squared, are indeed among the very best molded parts in the R/C industry today. It's not bragging if it's true. If you've seen an X - 60 you'll agree. If not, please wait until you see a Squared. You will agree then.

As Darren also pointed out, at the just-completed 24-hour race, we had five major parts breakages -- all AE parts. Is that because of where the AE parts are located? Maybe. But B4 drivers complain constantly about breakages of these same parts, so it's the parts, not the car.

Now if that comes off as knocking AE, I'm sorry. They make a great donor car, and the fastest drivers in the world have won a lot of races for them lately.

If you are among the fastest drivers in the world, I think you too might win with a B4. But if you are not, if you drive like I do, you'll do better with an X Factory car. And we are the reigning Champions in England, France, and Holland, just to name a few.

To sum up this too-long post, we did everything possible to ensure that present X Factory owners will be pleased with our new offerings while working to expand The Family. We began five years ago with a great idea and very little knowlege of the R/C-manufacturing business. Quality of the original X - 5, especially the first run of pulleys and the second run of chassies, was not good, but each time we've released a new car or part it has been better than the previous in design and quality, until we're now right there with the very top players. To paraphrase an old cigarette ad, "We've come a long way, baby."

And most of all, we thank The Family for all their help and support.

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I know I said I would not post anymore but my beef is only with the cost of upgrading the car so often I race on a budget and a small budget at that. My original post was a bit missleading I have only run the car for one year when I prchased the 4gear version that was an example of how much it would cost. The parts being dicontinued also bothers me as we know that the parts that are still in stock will not last as long as you think as people will start to bulk buy as they do when there is short supply.
For me personaly I dont think that I have gone any faster with it I have finished lower in the nationals and regionals than I did the year before. But it is a very good car and Xfactory do a fantastic job for the hobby/sport.
As for any of the coments by others on this post can I say that I dont agree with them and I support Chaz and Darren in what they have said and I didnt want to cause any bother or upset.

[SHY]

@Darren: OK, I didn't at first get that you were only talking about the X-6^2. My bad. But I still advise you to just keep on doing a great job. But let us customers do all the bragging! ;)

@Chazz: Great, you guys are very intelligent. I knew you'd get the message! :thumbsup:

Everything regarding X-Factory is very exciting and very "involving" for everyone. You're already exceeding people's expectations in so many ways. You don't need to promise to us the moon... Some of us will manage to break any part you throw at us, and that's perfectly ok! :lol: And it doesn't take more that a couple of false rumors claiming that X-Factory have now secretly moved production to China and parts break more often than before... and it'll spread like a virus... (Serpent were occused of this long before they did)

As to the discontinuing of parts I personally think it's fine the way you do it. Especially as long as the new parts fit the old ones. If that weren't the case I'm sure you'd keep stock of the old parts for some years to come.

Now get back to your work instead of writing long posts to us tossers! :lol:

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer/SHY, thank you both for your replies, I hope ou both understand a little bit more about what we are doing and how we are trying to do it, rest assured we will always try to dleiver the best possible product we can at the most compatative price.

SHY, dont put yourself down just for having an opinion, we value that, never have we thought you were a "tosser" in any way, if we did neither of us (myself or Chazz would waste our time on the weekend replying to you.....

Best Wishes

Darren

[SHY]

Just kidding, don't worry about it! :lol::lol::lol:

We're getting 20 below over here in the next days... wanna stress test the new parts? :p

[Lee Martin]

This sections like a battle for longest post! haha

[GRIFF55]

your not going to win with that one pidge:lol::p

[matt]

For that extra £30 differnace you get - wing, 2 wing mounts, all required hardware, new AE idler gear, 2 idler bearings, idler shaft, set of anti squat shims, 2 rear hinge pins, rear 3 and 4 degree rear pivot blocks, gearbox casings, motor plate, rear bulkhead, 6 threaded inserts, motor T piece, gearbox height spacers etc which adds up to around £95 seperatly, so it really is not a bad deal......

But for that extra £30 you get nothing of any use IMHO, and bit you will have a hard time passing on 2nd hand wih people upgrading to the new one.

[Darren Boyle]

Matt, but for those who need those bits (new converts) this is what is needed in the kit, there is NO point doing an update kit at £110 as well as the full kit at £140, they are far too close together as has been said on numerous times by Chazz ands Paul already

[jono83]

the same questions just keep getting answered over and over again lol i am the only one who thinks this thread is going round in circles?

[matt]

Yes i know this is what new coverts need, but that is not what i was talking about:p. Maybe it's me being petty after seing Xfactory doing upgrade kits in the past:cry:

[Darren Boyle]

the same questions just keep getting answered over and over again lol i am the only one who thinks this thread is going round in circles?


I do, I have answered the same questions several times......

[SHY]

This sections like a battle for longest post! haha

And you're dead last for a change! :lol:

Btw I think it's extremely cool that also the really good racers contribute and have fun on this forum - that's really unique!

[Lee]

I love you too pidge :p



As Darren and Chazz have said, nearly all the parts in the Squared kit have been re-worked/improved upon in some way. There really is no point in selling a conversion kit that gives you 90% of what the full kit would include. Everyone would just pay out the extra few pound or dollars and have a new car :D

Did you ever go into a shop as a child and ask for a 9p bag instead of a 10p bag :confused:

[Spencer Mulcahy]

I think the X factory god was telling me something yesterday (dont dis the math). Sods law is not the word for it after all this gibber jabber on this thread my X6 had a masive crash at the Southport GP full chat on the straight (any car would have broke the speed my car was going). So the damage tally broken chassi, rear wishbone ,bent hinge pin, 4 deg hinge pin brace and a servo horn and calls from the croud "are you getting a squared now Spen":lol: Darren have you got a vudu doll.:D:D

[super__dan]

Bad luck Spence! Were you able to fix it on the day?

[Spencer Mulcahy]

It was in the final Dan so no need, it hase been stripped ready to be converted back to a B4 as I havent got the money at the mo for a hair cut never mind all the parts to fix it. I need a new generator before the nationals so all my money is going on that plus entry for the nats. I know it is a better car than the B4 but at least I will have a car to race with.:D

[Lee]

Maybe Darren is XGod :confused::confused:

Can BMag confirm this? :D

[burgie]

...any car would have broke the speed my car was going...

Not true.

The car you hit (a new X6) drove away without so much as a cracked shocktower. That's Karma for you!

[Darren Boyle]

Spencer, if you want a cheap chassis to get your X6 back on the road, send me a PM and I can sort you out with one that we have just taken off of one of our team cars that has been converted up to Squared spec if you wish.

BTW No Voodoo or Xgods here......

[Spencer Mulcahy]

Thanks Darren but I am sorted cheers.