Has buggy racing got stupid?!

[BuggyRacer]

So, entirely open to discussion. I race outdoors on astroturf and Schumacher Minis-spikes have been brilliant for years, they've been lasting 4 meetings without too much trouble (so 20 races, 4x qualifiers and a final at each meeting).

I got back from club racing yesterday and EVERYONE is finding the need to use the newer, faster Schumacher Dart tyre. Yes it seems to offer a fantastic level of grip but people are using TWO sets per meeting seeing as the lose their peak after the 3rd race (on astro turf).

Is buggy racing the new cheque-book racing? It seems to of just got a little stupid...

Thoughts?

[jamie5974]

without a control tyre, people wanting to win will use the fastest possible tyre to try and make it happen.
if you can rock up with spikes, have fun and leave with a smile on your face then that should be the main goal.
yes most of us turn up to win, but as long as you have fun!
that's my moto anyway :)

[PaulRotheram]

I've packed it in due to spiralling tyre costs even to be competitive in a club series. I just cant justify it on a personal level - others have their own views but from past experience the current tyres are just not up to the job.
The new darts just don't last - 2 sets of rears are a minimum. Mini-spikes last longer but they don't give enough grip as the darts do. I feel a set of tyres should last a meeting to keep the hobby balanced - the tyres used to degrade, but currently they just fall off the cliff.

Going to a harder compound could of helped the situation maybe - but then everyone would have to do that to not make it a two tier race.
I feel the dart is different - I was convinced the compound has been altered, but it could just be the profile and the cars characteristics of being able to rotate up their own arse.

Electrics, spares and other areas of the hobby are the best they have ever been - things last, dont cost stupid amounts if youre careful and you can get away with having cheaper motors / escs. However the hop up band wagon is frustrating. You know you don't NEED them, but we all know it makes us feel better with them!

Darts were meant to be a solution, however you still see spikes being trimmed and even more new sets getting bolted on.

[Cosworth]

Yup tyre costs have gone through the roof with the use of darts. At the Kidderminster regional (tyre wear not helped by the inclusion of all the tarmac parts of the circuit) I was getting just over 1 run out of a set of Tyres. Have way through the second run you could feel them going off. Coventry regional wasnt much better either with a full astro track.

Someone started a discussion on Facebook about limiting the amount of sets you can run in one meeting like at touring car nationals and was met with mostly negative replies from let's say the high tier drivers and positive ones from the non A finalists.

I've personally never known tyre wear be so bad as it has been lately and something needs to be done about the spiralling costs on tyres.

[jamie5974]

you mention limiting sets, only problem with that i see is, are the darts weaing too fast to even be able to limit them?
With the touring cars running a used set vs brand new dosnt mean you are instantly the slowest on the track.
if the darts are wearing to the point of undriveable after say 3 runs then its clearly the wrong tyre at the moment.
spikes worked well and gave a good balance of wear vs grip

[Danosborne6661]

It makes sense for clubs to have the Schumacher Mini-spikes as their nominated control tyre if they feel that the Dart's are taking the enjoyment out of club racing, which they certainly seem to be.

I've seen that Dart's are the nominated tyre at Mendips oOoos round this year which could remove a lot of fun for some people £££!

[jamie5974]

i will be buying 2 sets for that event, 1 set per day. if i need more i shall find the trackside shop lol.
seems silly to me to be buying more sets of tyres for a buggy meeting than i do buy for a touring car meeting

It makes sense for clubs to have the Schumacher Mini-spikes nominated as their control tyre if they feel that the Dart's are taking the enjoyment out of club racing in my opinion?

I've seen that Dart's are the nominated tyre at Mendips oOoos round this year which could remove a lot of fun from that meeting £££!

[Brighton27]

Is buggy racing really getting that expensive? I cry at the thought of spending £50 on 2 sets of tyres for an outdoor touring car meeting. Don’t think I could handle doing that with buggies too

[Welshy40]

Yup gone crazy hence why rc in our country will never be massive. They would charge for air if it wasnt free already. Tyres should last more than two rounds, one event should be set as a rule by the BRCA to tyre makers so they redesign again and get the mix right.

[CHEVY]

A bit like aire valley back in the day when yokomo's were tires of choices 3 sets for one day:thumbdown:

[xfactor]

This is one of the reasons I packed up 1/8th off road racing due to tyre,wheel and insert cost, and returned to 1/10th.

Now its getting as bad with the amount you need per meeting.

How is this going to encouraged new people in to the sport when you tell them the tyre cost.:(

[Yorkiebar]

Me and my 11 year old lad both race on an absolute shoestring budget, he's had a set of yellow minispikes on the rear of his 2WD since March, and just swapped them for a pair of darts for a regional a couple of weeks ago (control tyre) - but got him blue compound to try and make them last. He loves how it drives with those on so going to stick with them. Even with brand new lo-pro yellow cut staggers it's still a bit front end pushy and safe so it's not like the blue compound is letting go at the back.

A round earlier in the year I could only afford tyres for him, so I was racing on bald spikes in the wet. Still didn't care as it was fun for us both. A chap at our club had a good laugh at my car and took pity on me, lending me a set of BB greens for the final (Ta Neil!).

We'll both never be A final material and we know it, we both simply enjoy a day's racing :lol:

[Zippy G]

Ok so here it is.
We ran our yz2 indoors on carpet on yellow mini darts, they lasted 2 rounds (10 minutes)of qualifying and needed replacing to stay competitive, we ran the same car on the same carpet with the same driver with proline pin points, they were a bit loose for the first 5 minutes but then lasted 3 full meetings!!! (60 minutes) before they went off.
BUT proline pin points are never a controlled tire:confused:

Not sure of other peoples experience but that was mine.

Our recent regional at Herts on a hot day was a fresh pair of rears every run, controlled tyre, Schumacher mini dart

[HarlowS]

I wonder if meetings ran a Mod class (as we are now) and a Sport class with sport being a controlled low wearing tyre how far the numbers would spread.....

[cjm_2008]

I did a practice day at mendip a couple of months ago, running worn yellow minispikes on the back of my YZ-2 DT.

It felt like it had plenty of grip to me. I have a set of darts still in the packet that I've yet to try; they remind me of mini-pins in a way, which are my least favourite tyre ever!

Indoors on carpet it's cactus for me every time.

Going through 2 sets a day sounds like lunacy. It can't be sustainable.

[HarlowS]

National meetings are getting to a stage where you can easily need a set per run to stay on pace. :cry:

[xfactor]

I was talking to a mate today who did both National days the weekend.

He used 12 pairs over both days.......:woot:

[cjm_2008]

I was talking to a mate today who did both National days the weekend.

He used 12 pairs over both days.......:woot:

Assuming he bought loads of spare rims with him, that's £96 just for tyres.

Lunacy.

[jamie5974]

I was talking to a mate today who did both National days the weekend.

He used 12 pairs over both days.......:woot:

thats stupid numbers.... £96 on tyres is beyond sustainable

[WHITTLER555]

Hi, just to put a few things straight:

The oOple Off Road Open Series has chosen Schumacher Darts AND Proline Pinpoints.

We have successfully run Pinpoints at all the venues, Ulverston, Broxtowe and Oswestry. A number of the oOple team have run them as their chosen tyre at all three venues so far.

I have run the Harder Z3 compound at two Bury Club meetings and a Southport meeting as well as trying them at all the oOple meetings above and I'm still on the same pair. In fact yesterday at Bury, they were giving so much rear drive and grip I was struggling with quite a bit of understeer!

You can now get a front Proline called a Wedge Squared which looks very much like a Schumacher cut stagger and it works very well, in fact it has grip and hardly any grip roll.

Whilst the Prolines are somewhat more expensive to buy in the first place they last a heck of a lot longer with in my opinion not much drop in performance. I tried them back to back with Darts at Bury yesterday and the Pinpoints were way quicker.

They won't work at every club but for the average club driver and if rules allow, i would invest in a set of Z3 rear Pinpoints and Z3 front Wedge Squared and try them out. You might find you have to alter your cars setup in 2WD as the Pinpoints provide a lot of forward drive.

[HarlowS]

Pinpoints are no use at Nationals though, i thought this was a general chat not specifically about the Oople series ??? unless i missed something ?

[jamie5974]

thank you, will get a set or 2 ready for the oople meeting to try!



Hi, just to put a few things straight:

The oOple Off Road Open Series has chosen Schumacher Darts AND Proline Pinpoints.

We have successfully run Pinpoints at all the venues, Ulverston, Broxtowe and Oswestry. A number of the oOple team have run them as their chosen tyre at all three venues so far.

I have run the Harder Z3 compound at two Bury Club meetings and a Southport meeting as well as trying them at all the oOple meetings above and I'm still on the same pair. In fact yesterday at Bury, they were giving so much rear drive and grip I was struggling with quite a bit of understeer!

You can now get a front Proline called a Wedge Squared which looks very much like a Schumacher cut stagger and it works very well, in fact it has grip and hardly any grip roll.

Whilst the Prolines are somewhat more expensive to buy in the first place they last a heck of a lot longer with in my opinion not much drop in performance. I tried them back to back with Darts at Bury yesterday and the Pinpoints were way quicker.

They won't work at every club but for the average club driver and if rules allow, i would invest in a set of Z3 rear Pinpoints and Z3 front Wedge Squared and try them out. You might find you have to alter your cars setup in 2WD as the Pinpoints provide a lot of forward drive.

[xfactor]

Should go back to rear motor. Didn't have this tyre wear back then. Think I only bought 1 set of TR32s and 1 set of mini spike green all year in 1991.....:D

COME BACK REAR MOTOR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

[claymoreman]

my bug bear is cactus as a control tyre on indoor when you have to carve up a brand new tyre to get it to work shows that the tyre is not fit for purpose and yet it is set as a control tyre on the front of 4wd why ??????? would you all go out and buy a new tyre for your full size car and carve it up to get it to work on a road. maybe that not the place to add this in but I would like to think isnt it a conflict of interest that the tyre manufacter that is set as a control tyre is also a chassis manufacturer it may or may not be but maybe something to throw into the mix

[jamie5974]

my bug bear is cactus as a control tyre on indoor when you have to carve up a brand new tyre to get it to work shows that the tyre is not fit for purpose and yet it is set as a control tyre on the front of 4wd why ??????? would you all go out and buy a new tyre for your full size car and carve it up to get it to work on a road. maybe that not the place to add this in but I would like to think isnt it a conflict of interest that the tyre manufacter that is set as a control tyre is also a chassis manufacturer it may or may not be but maybe something to throw into the mix

i must be one of the very few that dosn't trim or cut up cactus fronts....

[ChewieEX16]

Hi, just to put a few things straight:

The oOple Off Road Open Series has chosen Schumacher Darts AND Proline Pinpoints.

We have successfully run Pinpoints at all the venues, Ulverston, Broxtowe and Oswestry. A number of the oOple team have run them as their chosen tyre at all three venues so far.

I have run the Harder Z3 compound at two Bury Club meetings and a Southport meeting as well as trying them at all the oOple meetings above and I'm still on the same pair. In fact yesterday at Bury, they were giving so much rear drive and grip I was struggling with quite a bit of understeer!

You can now get a front Proline called a Wedge Squared which looks very much like a Schumacher cut stagger and it works very well, in fact it has grip and hardly any grip roll.

Whilst the Prolines are somewhat more expensive to buy in the first place they last a heck of a lot longer with in my opinion not much drop in performance. I tried them back to back with Darts at Bury yesterday and the Pinpoints were way quicker.

They won't work at every club but for the average club driver and if rules allow, i would invest in a set of Z3 rear Pinpoints and Z3 front Wedge Squared and try them out. You might find you have to alter your cars setup in 2WD as the Pinpoints provide a lot of forward drive.


I'm interested in trying some of these , could you recommend of where to get some of these from ? Was having a little look and saw they had a soft and medium compound which one would you suggest trying ? I run mainly on astro which happens to be have less grip than usual this year.

[WHITTLER555]

Pinpoints are no use at Nationals though, i thought this was a general chat not specifically about the Oople series ??? unless i missed something ?

Hi Stuart, Dan Osbourne mentioned the oOple Series for the upcoming Mendip Round and said he was looking at buying two sets of Darts.

I realise it does not include the Nationals however CML approached oOple to promote their tyres in our Series because other Series were not, so we took a chance and so far so good.

Maybe in future years the Nationals will look at Prolines instead of/as well as Schumachers?

My own opinion of the National Series is that to get consistency out of your car at such a high level you should run new tyres every run, that's why the top lads do it. Paul Worsley stated as much on his recent appearance on the State of RC Podcast.

The National Series should be for the very top performers and if you want to compete with them you have to accept the costs involved.

Regrettably with the power available in 2WD now you will always burn through soft compound tyres, the only way to stop that is a motor limit but then people will cheat when you impose that sort of limit.

[HarlowS]

Thats fine, my mistake. When you started of 'clearing things up' it sounded like people were moaning about the oople series which i hadnt seen and i thought it was just general that was all :)

[WHITTLER555]

thank you, will get a set or 2 ready for the oople meeting to try!

Hi, if you are looking at two sets then get the front wedge squared in both Z3 and Z4 compound and the Rear pinpoints in Z3 and Z4

Z3 = Harder - weirdly I've found they work better as they dig in to the surface - they feel like plastic but don't let that put you off

Z4 = Softer - bit more give in the sidewall, more like a Yellow Minipin. They won't last half as long as the Z3's but that will be about 20 more runs than a yellow Dart.

[WHITTLER555]

Thats fine, my mistake. When you started of 'clearing things up' it sounded like people were moaning about the oople series which i hadnt seen and i thought it was just general that was all :)

Actually I've mis quoted Dan, he said it might cost £££'s for Darts at Mendip oople not two pairs that was someone else.

So I wanted to cover off the fact we have also nominated Prolines.

It's new to us as well, but as a resilient tyre they deserve a try, if its dry astro, short pile with not much sand they are very good.

[Al3xis007]

The speed of the cars nowadays is so fast compared to even 3 years ago, the tyres have become faster and cars handling improved but at the sacrifice of tyre wear.
The other point people make is that it’s actually a lot cheaper to race these days because we don’t have to buy loads of motors and batteries all the time.
We don’t have to maintain motors, we don’t have to have fancy charger/dischargers.
Tyre wear is tyre wear, if it’s a big meeting I’ll run new tyres but on random sundays when it’s not busy and doesn’t mean anything then I’ll run ruined 4 meeting old tyres including practice

[stuey]

I am an old occasional club racer these days, and I was thinking the other day I hardly race my B6. I think the main reason is the prospect of being lucky to get through a club meeting on 2 sets of darts. At the Herts regional a couple of my mates ran a new set in 2wd every run, and my CAT XLS took a lot out of one set on the rear.
Having a single supplier of a control tyre works well for them, but someone who may be happy to use a slightly slower tyre to get better value for money is not able to. I don't think its a healthy situation, and this is hardly the first time this subject has come up is it?
It must be time for a rethink before too many people are put off racing because of this. If you want to use a new set a run good luck, but perhaps that's not for everyone?

[claymoreman]

maybe a choice of tyres for all brca sanctioned events would allow the budget minded racer the chance/choice to race, and promote the sport in a better light than limitting it to the cash rules format its good to see one series offering a choice of two tyre suppliers for there events but then again as brca members are we not all guilty of not pushing this at the agm and changing the rule

[mrspeedy]

I feel sorry for you buggy guys these days .. we run 1/8 on/offroad Rallycross at Mendip with big cars on 3s lipo that'll do 40mph and can easily get a set of tyres to last 2 months !!!

... thats a total cost of £33 !!

[dibble34]

I was at a regional recently and asked a team driver with the same car as me for his setup. It was similar to mine and turned out the main difference was he used a new set of rears for every run. That’s 7 sets of rears for a regional as he made the a final! I didn’t enjoy driving my car after my tyres had done one run as it had no grip, but I refuse to run a new set every time. Have to say I am looking at 8th scale ebuggy seriously.

[pumbaa]

You can get Pinpoints from LMR. At least I did.

I ran the Z3 in first two rounds at Mendip yesterday. Only changed to Darts to prep for Regional. IMHO, they aren't quite as good, but for club meetings on a budget, well worth a try.

I'd second everything Damo has said about them.

[charlesk]

To add to that a set of rears isn't unusable after 1 heat. They're perfectly good for practice/club racing. So saying that we need a new set every run doesn't necessarily mean that the cost over a longer period is higher. It means tyre management.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a more durable tyre used in racing, to reduce the cost that is indeed increasing. But it needs to be a control tyre used by all on that meeting series to ensure a level playing field.
If a faster tyre is also allowed then naturally people will use that if it matters to them...

At my local track the pinpoint works, but in z3 they're quite a bit slower than the yellow darts. Z4 seems to be very close in pace, lasts substantially better than the darts and even more importantly they are consistent over multiple runs.



Hi Stuart, Dan Osbourne mentioned the oOple Series for the upcoming Mendip Round and said he was looking at buying two sets of Darts.

I realise it does not include the Nationals however CML approached oOple to promote their tyres in our Series because other Series were not, so we took a chance and so far so good.

Maybe in future years the Nationals will look at Prolines instead of/as well as Schumachers?

My own opinion of the National Series is that to get consistency out of your car at such a high level you should run new tyres every run, that's why the top lads do it. Paul Worsley stated as much on his recent appearance on the State of RC Podcast.

The National Series should be for the very top performers and if you want to compete with them you have to accept the costs involved.

Regrettably with the power available in 2WD now you will always burn through soft compound tyres, the only way to stop that is a motor limit but then people will cheat when you impose that sort of limit.

[tyreman]

Should go back to rear motor. Didn't have this tyre wear back then. Think I only bought 1 set of TR32s and 1 set of mini spike green all year in 1991.....:D

COME BACK REAR MOTOR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

I don't think thats the issue Mark, I personally think it's the amount of power available to us now is the biggest factor with tyre wear. Back in the day we used to run a 13/14x2 in 2wd and 11x2 in 4wd. Would be interesting to see what the motors back then relate to current motors.

[daz75]

Hi, just to put a few things straight:

The oOple Off Road Open Series has chosen Schumacher Darts AND Proline Pinpoints.

We have successfully run Pinpoints at all the venues, Ulverston, Broxtowe and Oswestry. A number of the oOple team have run them as their chosen tyre at all three venues so far.

I have run the Harder Z3 compound at two Bury Club meetings and a Southport meeting as well as trying them at all the oOple meetings above and I'm still on the same pair. In fact yesterday at Bury, they were giving so much rear drive and grip I was struggling with quite a bit of understeer!

You can now get a front Proline called a Wedge Squared which looks very much like a Schumacher cut stagger and it works very well, in fact it has grip and hardly any grip roll.

Whilst the Prolines are somewhat more expensive to buy in the first place they last a heck of a lot longer with in my opinion not much drop in performance. I tried them back to back with Darts at Bury yesterday and the Pinpoints were way quicker.

They won't work at every club but for the average club driver and if rules allow, i would invest in a set of Z3 rear Pinpoints and Z3 front Wedge Squared and try them out. You might find you have to alter your cars setup in 2WD as the Pinpoints provide a lot of forward drive.



Thanks damo will give those a try as running 3 cars is a expensive :thumbdown:

Is z3 the compound ?

[markwilliamson2001]

I’ve basically given up 1/10th Racing because of this.
At kidderminster, the Z3 tyres lasted really well and gripped okay, but the performance/laptime just isn’t there when compared to a yellow dart. Yes it was 1.5 secs a lap slower. Put on a yellow dart and your instantly faster. Not sure if this is down to sand, rubber in the Astro etc... but running 2 sets of rears and 1 set of fronts per meeting just isn’t sustainable for me.
1 set per run is simply no go, and why I’ve not done regionals for the last 10 years as it’s not enjoyable not being competitive due to size of your wallet.

I’m now doing mini / oval and v cheap. 6 meetings on a pair of rear tyres and only £5 for a new pair truedand glued on wheels.

[timmy]

I don't think thats the issue Mark, I personally think it's the amount of power available to us now is the biggest factor with tyre wear. Back in the day we used to run a 13/14x2 in 2wd and 11x2 in 4wd. Would be interesting to see what the motors back then relate to current motors.

And the only reason we get away with using all this extra power is that, with the change from grass & dirt tracks to carpet & astro all the cars are now designed to generate more and more grip which comes at a cost.

[xfactor]

I think you are all being a bit selfish.:lol::lol:

COME ON !!

Think of Robins Bentley Continental, with crushed velvet curtains, Bar, Cream leather, Cream carpet and driver. Oh and Bar man.

I'm doing my bit.:):)

I'm just gluing up 6 pairs of rear Darts and 6 pairs of cut stagger fronts for this coming club meeting. :lol::lol::lol:

Come on do your bit !!

[cjm_2008]

This does need bringing up at the AGM.

It's clearly unsustainable. If I was doing nationals I'd have found this pretty shocking.

Do Schumacher run a recycling scheme?

[WHITTLER555]

Thanks damo will give those a try as running 3 cars is a expensive :thumbdown:

Is z3 the compound ?

It certainly is at Bury Metro, they work a treat and they are in my opinion better than Darts on that track.

[WHITTLER555]

This does need bringing up at the AGM.

It's clearly unsustainable. If I was doing nationals I'd have found this pretty shocking.

Do Schumacher run a recycling scheme?

Don't do the Nationals then! Come and race at an oople round where you get nearly three hours practice on a Saturday instead of 6 minutes at a National, you usually get five qualifiers plus three leg finals for all!

Blatant plug!

[racingdwarf]

As has been said in a few posts, Lipo brushless power, mega high grip astro consistent high speed tracks and cars being designed to work on these surfaces = great racing for people who want to race to win, if there is a tyre out there that gives 100% grip if only for one run they will want it. The dart is a successful tyre for both racers and schumacher, it works well and sells by the box load. But is it good for the hobby...no not really but who cares it wins and sells. Ive raced RC for 30 years and its always been the same motors or batterys or tyres

[Adam F]

So, entirely open to discussion. I race outdoors on astroturf and Schumacher Minis-spikes have been brilliant for years, they've been lasting 4 meetings without too much trouble (so 20 races, 4x qualifiers and a final at each meeting).

I got back from club racing yesterday and EVERYONE is finding the need to use the newer, faster Schumacher Dart tyre. Yes it seems to offer a fantastic level of grip but people are using TWO sets per meeting seeing as the lose their peak after the 3rd race (on astro turf).

Is buggy racing the new cheque-book racing? It seems to of just got a little stupid...

Thoughts?

I can't remember ever getting 4 meetings from spikes in 2wd....!

[MHeadling]

In the grand scheme of all things racing the cost isn’t too high IMO

Go and buy a pair of slicks for a super bike at £250 a pair that you can roast in 1 -2 races or 4 x track day/slicks for a full size car at £500+

Just look at other racing hobbies/formulas and it’s not too bad

[racingdwarf]

In the grand scheme of all things racing the cost isn’t too high IMO

Go and buy a pair of slicks for a super bike at £250 a pair that you can roast in 1 -2 races or 4 x track day/slicks for a full size car at £500+

Just look at other racing hobbies/formulas and it’s not too bad

very true, but its all relative if you had the budget to race a super bike but decided to go race 10th buggy instead at top level it would be cheep as chips :lol:

[Robocop]

Well I think coming from tc it's still cheap but maybe at regionals limit the sets so it's fair for everyone not who has the biggest pockets.
At least it's all lipos and brushless for all so no need for that special motor or battery like it used to be,but now we are all going faster so tyres have to give a little

[chrispattinson]

I think the current rear tyre situation works fine. What you maybe dont see, from the guys putting new tyres on every run at nationals, is that it isn't the last time the tyres will be used.

Personally:

Darts.
1 run per set in 2wd @ Nats
Then 2nd run on the set in 4wd.
Then a whole club night (maybe 2 or 3 club nights if the track hasn't got as much carpet).

(For club racing, worn darts are more than enough, they don't fall off a cliff so much that you can't have fun at the local club).

It's not that bad, it works out I'm getting more than 2 meetings out of a set of rears .
Fronts (2wd) I get a lot more out of.

I would hate to see me needing different tyres for club and BRCA events, and the best tyre for our club at the moment is Darts.

The environmental impact is more concerning, which James highlighted in a recycling suggestion recently.

[K-Brewer]

if you want to be competitive then darts are the key, Prolines are good but require a different set up so can be a pain as most competitions don't allow them.

On club nights we can run really what we want but depends on how competitive you want to be vs tyre wear so the choice is yours.

Fast people will generally always be quick no matter what tyres they're on but if someone does win with new tyres just tell them they bought that win and it doesn't really count :p

[BuggyRacer]

Wow I wasn't expecting such a huge response from everyone, glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. A few people have mentioned how much faster the cars are now, this is slightly irrelevant as even with these quicker cars, the duration of Schumacher Mini-spikes was much better but you are simply not competitive up against the Dart tyre.

Nationals, regionals and oOoos aside. People are still getting through a lot of the Dart tyres even at club level. You're simply uncompetitive even at club racing without the large wallet.

Good suggestion by HarlowS though, if people want to continue running the Dart tyre at clubs, I wonder if clubs would implement a 'stock' style class where the control tyre would be a Schumacher Mini-spike instead and a motor like a 10.5/13.5t to help prevent wear? You would then still have your 'mod' class to consist of fast motors and wallet-eating-tyres?

[KRob]

As has been mentioned, the Proline Pinpoint is a viable alternative to the Dart. No it doesn't have quite as much grip but it lasts a lot longer.

The problem is the top drivers will always use the fastest tyre. At the moment from the control options that is the Dart. And if they wear then they will replace them every round. So to be competitive the guys who would make the B/C final will do the same as they want to (and are prepared to spend) be in with a chance of the A final.

And that filters down through the rest of the finals until the mind set of the guys in the lower finals is 'I can't compete unless I put new tyres on'.

I'm known for being tight with my tyres and will accept what ever result comes along for the amount of money i'm prepared to spend - I just want to enjoy the day.
For example at the Kidderminster 2wd regional I changed to Pin points during qualifying and still manged an 8th in round - leading to great fun battling at the front of the B final. At Coventry the top guys were on a set a run but I used the same set of Darts all day. Made it into the middle/back of the A and had fun running round with the people that were the same pace as me.
Used tyres can work - but expectations need to be managed on what can be achieved.

[Yorkiebar]

Has anyone tried the proline pyramids? They look like they could work well too. :)

[stuey]

I was wondering about the pyramids too, they are supposed to be the astro tyre.
What compound were you using with the pinpoints KRob?

[KRob]

At the Kiddy regional it was Z3. I actually has the Wedge squared on the front too but they were Z4 (as I can make anything understeer).
Was a good dry day. Yes the lap time was about a third of a second slower out outright fastest lap but the tyres were a lot less 'grabby' so less tendency to grip roll and made it easier to drive. Less stressful to drive with.

I've used Z4 at Kiddy too but only on a vintage 2wd. Great grip and last a fair while but obviously it a lot less demanding.

Not tried the Pyramids.

[stuey]

Thanks Keith :)

[xfactor]

Do you think the Pin Points are or would be quicker than a yellow mini spike.

[DynaMight]

I bet if everyone started using Prolines etc and the Nationals mentioned they may follow suit, I bet Schumacher would release a updated Dart style tyre that suddenly lasts twice as long :p e.g. Mini Pins vs Cactus...

Makes no business sense currently as people buy loads of them! Win win.

[Navek668]

Just out of interest has anyone tried the blue darts?

[JohnM]

Just out of interest has anyone tried the blue darts?

Some people I know love them at our local track, but that has tons of grip even on worn tyres,

Others hated the blues at a different track.

[daz75]

Using near bald tyres at club nights was great fun. Amazing how much grip came back to them once they were propped bald. Think they got softer too

[MattW]

I'm surprised it's taken this long for this one to come up to be honest, it was obvious where it was gong last time I raced off rd (something like 4 years ago).

I actually think the cars have made a big difference, the cars have significantly less mechanical traction now than they had 6-8 years ago, alongside more power.

[Danosborne6661]

Just seen this thread again so thought I would dig it out!

Would be amazing to see a 17.5t 2WD buggy class in the UK. With how fast the cars have become and shorter life span of the preferred tyres, I'm sure a 17.5t class would prove popular for better tyre wear and closer racing.

Mod - Open motor, open tyres
Stock - 17.5 motor, spike tyre

Easy.

[jamie5974]

I would love stock buggy racing... Mentioned it a few times at my local large indoor track and have been met with alot of booing and hissing from the crowd 😂😂

[DarkHawk]

Just seen this thread again so thought I would dig it out!

Would be amazing to see a 17.5t 2WD buggy class in the UK. With how fast the cars have become and shorter life span of the preferred tyres, I'm sure a 17.5t class would prove popular for better tyre wear and closer racing.

Mod - Open motor, open tyres
Stock - 17.5 motor, spike tyre

Easy.

Probably 10.5t 4wd and 13.5t 2wd would work better, as someone mentioned in another post in this country no one is interested I just wanna run as fast as possible

[Kev B]

The major downside to stock classes is the motor and battery side of it, In Mod the cars have too much power so can get away with 2nd hand or older motors and batteries.
If you look at classes like GT12 then its all about finding that extra edge, thats through high Amp charging or buying every new motor out and tuning them. The cost of tyres is far cheaper the extra cost to do that.

[jamie5974]

The major downside to stock classes is the motor and battery side of it, In Mod the cars have too much power so can get away with 2nd hand or older motors and batteries.
If you look at classes like GT12 then its all about finding that extra edge, thats through high Amp charging or buying every new motor out and tuning them. The cost of tyres is far cheaper the extra cost to do that.

Disagree.
I'm running in 13.5 tc and 17.5 tc, one year old batteries and 1 year old motors.
Not a huge difference unless your top 5 at a large event.

[RobW]

The major downside to stock classes is the motor and battery side of it, In Mod the cars have too much power so can get away with 2nd hand or older motors and batteries.
If you look at classes like GT12 then its all about finding that extra edge, thats through high Amp charging or buying every new motor out and tuning them. The cost of tyres is far cheaper the extra cost to do that.

I have always had this view as it has made batteries/motors really cheap for the little bit of off road racing I do over the summer – 2 year old cheap cells and £30 second-hand motors still have more power than my thumbs can deal with.

However I have to say the thought of a more manageable amount of power is starting to sound more and more appealing. In other classes I race I certainly see the slower the motor, generally the closer the racing. Faster classes tend to have an element of drivers just about hanging on to their cars and just trying to keep them on the track rather than any close racing.

I can see with a stock motor class that there would be undoubtedly be a motor/battery war up towards the front of the pack but probably only amongst those that currently already make the decision to spend lots on tyres/motors/latest cars. The rest of us might get cars that did not shred tyres and allow us to actually race each other a bit closer.

Might become more of a class for newer drivers and those who have got, how shall I put it, more vintage thumbs? Sure, you will get a few ringers who would run in it and throw vast amounts of money at it but so what, that happens in virtually r/c class I’ve seen.

Never suggest getting rid of Open Mod for those that want it though.

[Danosborne6661]

Probably 10.5t 4wd and 13.5t 2wd would work better, as someone mentioned in another post in this country no one is interested I just wanna run as fast as possible


I already run a 10.5t in 2WD and I'm pretty much as quick as the 6.5t/7.5t motors when it comes to a complete race on a smaller track like at Mendip. I think you'd want something like a 17.5t to make the classes different enough, otherwise they're just too similar and not worthwhile - 17.5t is what the yanks run in stock.

The major downside to stock classes is the motor and battery side of it, In Mod the cars have too much power so can get away with 2nd hand or older motors and batteries.
If you look at classes like GT12 then its all about finding that extra edge, thats through high Amp charging or buying every new motor out and tuning them. The cost of tyres is far cheaper the extra cost to do that.



Most offroad tracks are more tyre reliant than power. On bumpier tracks you simply can't pin it everywhere (with carpet and a few others being the exception)

When are some clubs going to be innovative enough to start a 17.5t class then? There's enough discussion going on to make it appealing

[adey]

I have been told at some of the carpet events the drivers are using brand new cactus tyres for every run. I spoke with a factory Schumacher driver who insisted that they need to do this to be competitive at the high level they race at and the tryes after only one run are worn enough to not be on the pace with new tyres. Surely if this is true it puts the people who can't afford to do this on the back foot from the start. Admittedly driving skill is key here but that aside it means the drivers who cannot afford to do this are at a disadvantage straight away. Now I know that different people feel differently about the issue of cost of tyres and the cost of the hobby in general but I think this tyre cost subject is a really something that needs to be addressed. Limiting the amount of tyres per meeting is a option as mentioned before but I am keen to hear other views on this. This hobby certainly is not cheap but in my view something should be put in place to limit the cost of the tyres per meeting to keep people interested.

[Aire valley]

At Batley Buggy Club running at MB Raceway full carpet track, for the Winter points series, drivers are allowed only one set of Cactus tyres per meeting...that
keeps the cost down and seems to work well. On the other hand, a 13.5t class was proposed and introduced.. I think it's good but only, perhaps , 6 out of 50 drivers run them...! As said above, most drivers appear to want to go as fast as possible.!
York off road club run various classes including 20t brushed and 17.5t brushless, but on a mixed surface and is quite popular.. I've run a Top Force with 17.5t , and on that surface is great..
I think that the modern trend of full carpet tracks with massive grip, just encourages the "go fast" brigade..

[racingdwarf]

few things
A)We don't actually have that many racers in the uk compared to say the USA, this means you normally find its the same people doing all classes 2wd,4wd,shortcourse,truck 8th etc which is why so many classes just don't get the support as racers don't want to spread their budget to thin and just don't have the time
B)most racers will sell there right arm to go fast! and they're not particular interested in anything designed to slow things down.
C) 17.5 etc on most uk high grip tracks would be like slot car racing, that would mean its all about car/batterys tyres etc thus ending up riddled with rules. This in the end will probably cost more than just running a normal buggy .
D) I agree it would be nice to see a rule limiting the number of sets of tyres used rather than just the type of tyre but policing it is a nightmare and I can think of one uk manufacturer that would be less than keen on it being an idea that would take off:lol:

Just my point of view on the matter, not wanting to stir anyone up:thumbsup:

[JohnM]

If you see what most people running 17.5 or 13.5 in the States spend on making their cars competitive, I think I’ll stick to buying tyres.

[claymoreman]

take a real good look a the US's stock classes and actually sit down and cost up a stock class buggy you will find that there is far more money invested in a stock buggy than a mod buggy. you will always get those who want that edge in racing so will spend spend spend to gain that extra bit of speed not every motor is the same so those with the money will go out buy a box full of motors find the best out of the batch and throw it in there 2wd/4wd buggy same with batteries. So it would not bring down the cost of racing it would increase it to be competitive hence why no club and the brca have not introduced the stock class racing it simply does not bring down costs the only way to bring down costs and in a way even the playing field is for a set number of tyres to be allowed at all brca ifmar events but will it happen no because of the one thing and that is factory drivers and factories that support these events want there drivers to be the ones on the top step.

[mark christopher]

The major downside to stock classes is the motor and battery side of it, In Mod the cars have too much power so can get away with 2nd hand or older motors and batteries.
If you look at classes like GT12 then its all about finding that extra edge, thats through high Amp charging or buying every new motor out and tuning them. The cost of tyres is far cheaper the extra cost to do that.

this exactly, any class that has more grip than power turns into a motor and lipo war. done many and its always the same.

[mark christopher]

if you want to run a slower motor to go faster, you can buy one bolt it in the current buggy rules allow that.

there is a place for stock racing, but here is also a cost, cars being made lighter, direct drive kits to loose slippers and free up rotating mass.

[HarlowS]

You only make a car lighter once...... You buy tyres all year round 🤔

[mark christopher]

You only make a car lighter once...... You buy tyres all year round ��

and the latest motors on release and fresh lipo every few months to keep max volts.


as i said, raced many stock classes allways the same result, and you will still end up putting fresh tyes on as the top guys will!

[Danosborne6661]

It's interesting to hear peoples responses, you would NOT have to run in a stock class - it would just be an option available alongside mod. There is just the hope that in a stock class there would be closer racing and reduced tyre wear - it's the most popular class in the states after all.

I gave up buggy racing quite a few years ago, the tyre management got too much. Not just the expense, but the faff of preparing so many sets, I would rather be refining the car, not gluing up tyres. You may as well say your hobby is gluing up tyres and dipping them in acetone rather than racing :lol:

Since giving up buggy racing I have raced onroad classes such as GT12/LMP/Frontie, all spec classes with limited 13.5t or 17.5t motors and the tyres last incredibly well. They have all had the closest racing I have had in years!

With buggies you seem to spend most of your time just waiting for the car ahead to make a mistake rather than actually racing?! Perhaps a stock class would encourage a little more wheel to wheel action.

[adey]

This may of already been said but what about a tyre rule of 2 or 3 sets per meeting. After all the buggies are scrutenered to ensure a level playing field. What's the point of that if another racer can have a advantage of new tyres each run and another can't. I know a sponsored driver has to perform and has to get the best results possible and to do that he or she runs new tyres each run to get the best result but if say another decent driver hasn't got the ability to run the new tyres each run then they are at a disadvantage from the off. No matter how good they drive they won't be on a level playing field.

[Origineelreclamebord]

There's a solution to all this... Stop seeing racing as an 'arms race' and don't take the results too seriously... the only thing you should really take seriously is to try and have fun :)

I'll explain my perspective on this... I started racing in 2012. As I became more experienced in racing and I developed my buggy further, results improved and where initially I rejoiced my new personal best results, being in the top 3 at club races and A-finals in Nationals became the norm and a personal expectation a couple of years ago. The consequences of that are awful, as not meeting an expectations results in disappointment.

When you don't achieve the results you expect, it becomes very easy to talk yourself into the idea that you need to prepare more and better to practice your hobby and have fun, and that better equipment and tires will help you achieve those goals. However better preparation or gear does not guarantee fun, in fact it makes for only bigger disappointment when things don't work out as you expected.

At some point a few years ago, further preparation did not improve my results and I was not having the fun I wanted. I had a good think and I decided to not do any preparations for the next race and not drive in in my usual class (2WD modified) either. Instead, I got my box stock Tamiya DT03 off the shelf, charged the battery and nothing else. I had a blast that day, it was the nicest day racing I had in over a year! Since then, I've gone back mostly to club racing, I prepare a lot less and the hobby has been all the more fun for it.

So if you ask me, the best thing you can do is to ignore the level of preparation you see around you, don't let yourself get involved in an arms race of more tires, the newest cars and go to the track without expectations with regard to results :thumbsup: Worn tires, a slower motor and last year's car will not stop you from having fun if you won't let it.

[adey]

That is a very good way to view the situation. Sadly alot and me included in this do want to at least stand a chance of winning. After all we are all big kids at this really. That aside in terms of a competititive point of view the question remains......should there be a tyre rule. ?

[Origineelreclamebord]

Change to slicks without tyre additives for a control tire... Consistent for a long time and carpet grips plenty anyway :)

[adey]

We tried some jconcepts slicks last night for the first time on carpet and they were awful. I thought they would be ok but I was wrong..do you know of any others that do work ?. I will certainly try them.

[Origineelreclamebord]

Well, it's certainly possible to get nice grip running slicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0w5DgMQDv4

I'm not very experienced with slicks, but I know sanding the tires will help. Very shallow tread like those of JConcepts Octagons or ProLine Primes could also work, albeit it might suffer from tread wear.

Then there are traction compounds. It helps for grip, however it has many adverse effects too:
- Using multiple compounds on one track can seriously compromise grip levels;
- Traction compounds are plasticizers, some of which are very nasty chemicals. To avoid health risks, the majority of them should not be handled without gloves and only in a well ventilated area. Additives end up in the carpet, making it very hard to gauge what level of protection you would need during wrenching on your car or marshalling, just to name two examples.

- Tires without compounds/additives applied collect deposits from the track, hampering grip for anyone not willing to use the compounds due to health concerns.

A sanctioned studded tire like Schumacher blocks could perhaps provide a nice alternative. The chunky tread and its lack of sharp features helps to keep consistent performance for a long time.

[adey]

We tried with and without additive and it was just totally undriveable. We were using venoms but people didn't like how they expanded so we are looking at alternatives. The cactus upset the touring car drivers and wear quite fast so we said we will try and find a tyre to keep all happy if possible.

[Kev B]

Worth trying the Schumacher Honeycombs? Few clubs to me are running these on carpet on club nights with touring cars and working well so far

[Origineelreclamebord]

We tried with and without additive and it was just totally undriveable. We were using venoms but people didn't like how they expanded so we are looking at alternatives. The cactus upset the touring car drivers and wear quite fast so we said we will try and find a tyre to keep all happy if possible.


Ballooning is very much compound and carcass (thickness) related. It's probably worth looking up a few alternatives. Also, ballooning is further reduced by using moulded / closed-cell inserts.

I kind of forgot about the Schumacher Honeycombs, they could be really nice. They are probably longer lasting than any spike/pin tire, they will provide more grip on hard flooring like a worn tire or a slick, but at the same time should not be as sensitive to dust and loose deposits on the track as slicks :)

[adey]

We did but some still complain as they don't have that much grip and are a higher profile tyre. I personally don't mind but some people are hard to please. I have in mind some proline tyres with a hex pattern

[Ritchie T]

Just limit the sets ffs :wtf:

[Matisse]

It's interesting to hear peoples responses, you would NOT have to run in a stock class - it would just be an option available alongside mod. There is just the hope that in a stock class there would be closer racing and reduced tyre wear - it's the most popular class in the states after all.

I gave up buggy racing quite a few years ago, the tyre management got too much. Not just the expense, but the faff of preparing so many sets, I would rather be refining the car, not gluing up tyres. You may as well say your hobby is gluing up tyres and dipping them in acetone rather than racing :lol:

Since giving up buggy racing I have raced onroad classes such as GT12/LMP/Frontie, all spec classes with limited 13.5t or 17.5t motors and the tyres last incredibly well. They have all had the closest racing I have had in years!

With buggies you seem to spend most of your time just waiting for the car ahead to make a mistake rather than actually racing?! Perhaps a stock class would encourage a little more wheel to wheel action.

You racing at mendip bud? worm still a thing?

[Cosworth]

Just limit the sets ffs :wtf:

I'm sure it was suggested but they said it would be too hard to police and take too much time to mark all the sets up.

Worked fine in Touring Cars though 😉 And if they can do it why can't the hardcore buggy racers.

[dale]

You don't want buggy to go to stock motors. This will increase costs, not reduce them. And it also increases the need for scrutineering.

For the stock class at TC nationals we check voltage before races, because more voltage = more power. This is a massive pain, and even worse on a buggy when you can't get to the battery terminals with the shell on.

After the meeting we confiscate motors from the top runners so they can be properly scrutineered. Last year several people were disqualified, not through their own fault, but due to motor manufacturers pushing the limits and ending up over them. One driver lost a championship as a result of losing a round score.

Stock drivers have big resistor banks used to discharge their lipos at 40 amps or more before charging them. This heats the lipos up, lowering the IR, giving more punch. This obviously isn't good for the lipos, so the top drivers replace them regularly.

The top stock driver at our club tried at least 6 different motors last year trying to find the fastest one.

Buggy just need to limit tyres to 2 sets per meeting same as we do with TC. It's easy to mark and police. Nobody tries to cheat. If you make a token effort to mark and check, everyone will play ball, and everyone saves money.

Buggy racing is really low effort compared to TC; the only bit that's worse are the unlimited tyres.

[the dug]

That’s fine indoor. But what happens if you want to change either compound or maybe another manufacturer? Or if weather affects choice? 2 sets of everything or just tough? Won’t work outdoors!

[Jas41]

Surely to apply a tyre limit to outdoors is not impossible? In kart racing you have 1 set of dry tyres which are marked at the start of the day and you can use them if the meeting is declared dry or open, you also have unlimited (safety) sets of wet tyres which you can use if meeting is declared open or wet but you can’t use them if meeting is declared as dry. The status of a meeting can be changed via an announcement for example if a shower passes over on an otherwise sunny day. Why couldn’t you limit drivers to 1/2 sets of tyres for dry and same for wet and limit usage by same way as karts?

It feels like this thread is similar to the budget restrictions argument that is happening in formula 1. Should spend be restricted and if so then how with the different views from teams with different size budgets.

[the dug]

Multiple compounds and manufactures in both wet and dry. Choose wrong at start of day then absolutely buggered. Wish there was a better answer but don’t think this is the way to go

[dale]

To clarify; TC is two sets of slicks and two sets of wets, so a change in weather conditions is covered. It's very rare to use all 4 sets. Normally wets sit in the pit box, doing a run here and there when there's a shower. Or the odd meeting when it rains all day. It's common to see wets with 4 or 5 different scrutineering marks as they last way longer than slicks, which I guess is similar off-road. I remember BB greens lasting for ages.

Only one compound of slick and one compound of wet. There's no need for multiple manufacturers and compounds, that just increases cost as you have to turn up with all the options, and test all the options.

So on the majority of meetings you just use 2 new sets of dry tyres, but have the wets ready if needed. If tyres were unlimited, it would be 6 new sets of dry tyres. If multiple manufacturers were allowed, then you'd have 18 sets of new tyres in the box for one meeting...

[BuggyRacer]

A 17.5t class could help

- Closer racing
- Less tyre wear due to slower motors
- Potential to have a nominated tyre like a Schumacher Spike that lasts longer
- Most offroad tracks are less powder dependant due to the bumpy tracks

People wouldn't be forced to run this class, there would still be the open 'mod' class - this would just be an option. We're not talking at national level either, where 'everyone would buy the fastest available motor'... we're talking club level.

It would be more about tuning your car, getting the most out of it and driving to carry corner speed. Rather than how it is at the moment with absolutely nailing it between turns.

As someone pointed out above, this is the class of choice over in America after all!

[Danosborne6661]

You racing at mendip bud? worm still a thing?

Yes mate, racing 1/8th Onroad RX still! We only change our tyres every 3-4 months :lol:. Also at Bristol club racing indoor on a Thursday evening.

Hope you are tempted with a comeback seeing as you are lurking oOple!

[DarkHawk]

A 17.5t class could help

- Closer racing
- Less tyre wear due to slower motors
- Potential to have a nominated tyre like a Schumacher Spike that lasts longer
- Most offroad tracks are less powder dependant due to the bumpy tracks

People wouldn't be forced to run this class, there would still be the open 'mod' class - this would just be an option. We're not talking at national level either, where 'everyone would buy the fastest available motor'... we're talking club level.

It would be more about tuning your car, getting the most out of it and driving to carry corner speed. Rather than how it is at the moment with absolutely nailing it between turns.

As someone pointed out above, this is the class of choice over in America after all!

I would like to see a stock class over here,but they have had a lot of problems in the last couple years in America and most clubs have gone to 21.5 to try and stop people from cheating if you look on YouTube there should be a video from the J concept national which has gone 21.5 racing

[mrspeedy]

There is actually some middle ground here that no one has mentioned so far I believe.. 10.5 motors

Very quick motors still but smoother than full mod so you don't kill your tyres every run ..

I came back for a little buggy racing at my regional last year and ran 10.5 in with full mod class .. my car was very nearly as quick as mod on the straights but much smoother through the corners and getting the power down was really easy making the car super consistent and to be honest it was a joy to drive !!!

and because of the smoother power delivery 1 single set of tyres was good for a days racing :thumbsup:

[mark christopher]

There is actually some middle ground here that no one has mentioned so far I believe.. 10.5 motors

Very quick motors still but smoother than full mod so you don't kill your tyres every run ..

I came back for a little buggy racing at my regional last year and ran 10.5 in with full mod class .. my car was very nearly as quick as mod on the straights but much smoother through the corners and getting the power down was really easy making the car super consistent and to be honest it was a joy to drive !!!

and because of the smoother power delivery 1 single set of tyres was good for a days racing :thumbsup:
So no need for a a separate class just run the motor to suit the track or the driver.

[mark christopher]

A 17.5t class could help

- Closer racing
- Less tyre wear due to slower motors
- Potential to have a nominated tyre like a Schumacher Spike that lasts longer
- Most offroad tracks are less powder dependant due to the bumpy tracks

People wouldn't be forced to run this class, there would still be the open 'mod' class - this would just be an option. We're not talking at national level either, where 'everyone would buy the fastest available motor'... we're talking club level.

It would be more about tuning your car, getting the most out of it and driving to carry corner speed. Rather than how it is at the moment with absolutely nailing it between turns.

As someone pointed out above, this is the class of choice over in America after all!

I'm sorry but it will encourage drivers to seek the latest motor, lipo at club level, it happens in tc gt12 at club level now.

spikes of any sort give max grip when new.

[mark christopher]

If you're all worried about tyre wear. Simply pick a tyre with less grip that's harder simple really. That will then Force people onto slower Motors

[Matisse]

Yes mate, racing 1/8th Onroad RX still! We only change our tyres every 3-4 months :lol:. Also at Bristol club racing indoor on a Thursday evening.

Hope you are tempted with a comeback seeing as you are lurking oOple!

i may or may not have bought a buggy....

where is the bristol track?

[Danosborne6661]

i may or may not have bought a buggy....

where is the bristol track?

Good to hear mate! I'll fire you a message on facebook. I've bought one too because there's a load of events at Mendip this year... oOple., regional and end of season finals! Haven't had a buggy for a while (not as long as you lol)

Got a tonne of electrics kicking around if you're after anything :thumbsup:

[dale]

This thread shows another thing that happens with stock racing...

In one page we've got one guy who wants a 21.5, another a 17.5, and another a 10.5.

So what you end up with are lots of stock classes so everyone can run a motor that suits their preference, and heavily diluted racing. Look at any american race and you'll see 15 classes each with a heat or two.

One of the best bits of buggy racing is turning up to a club race and racing against a whole field of people, rather than just 4 or 5 who happen to have chosen the same class/motor.

[mark christopher]

This thread shows another thing that happens with stock racing...

In one page we've got one guy who wants a 21.5, another a 17.5, and another a 10.5.

So what you end up with are lots of stock classes so everyone can run a motor that suits their preference, and heavily diluted racing. Look at any american race and you'll see 15 classes each with a heat or two.

One of the best bits of buggy racing is turning up to a club race and racing against a whole field of people, rather than just 4 or 5 who happen to have chosen the same class/motor.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[andys]

This is exactly why so many buggy racers 'join' the Schumacher team... for the tyre discount!!
Schumacher aren't daft - they make tyres that wear out fast and then quietly chip away at the racing community - giving average drivers 'B' drives - where they basically get a discount for buying direct and cut out your LHS :(

It's all wrong IMO - we should run harder compound tyres - and everyone (except perhaps the world class / full time team drivers) should have to buy them from their LHS.

[adey]

Yes, Schumacher are not really helping the situation with this but until there is a tyre limit rule put in place it will continue. it seems the general feeling on the expense of tyres per meeting is an issue that alot of people feel is a problem so it needs to be taken seriously. One question is......will this have a damaging effect on the hobby in terms of people quitting if it doesn't change and how damaging will it be ?.

[Kev B]

People go back to limit on tyres but I remember Nationals in the day with this rule. If you made a mistake on the first lap you just pulled off to save them for the next run. Have limited track time as it is and that made it worse. We now have a lap or 2 warm up which doesn't help. Not just the Brand mentioned. Any new tyre will have an advantage over a one run set. We save hundreds on batteries and motors now compared to 20 years ago the tyre part is not as bad as made out to the whole budget for racing. Should just make the most of what you can afford and just be out having fun racing.

Would you enjoy the day less running on a blue instead of a yellow compound and saving money? Still be on the limit driving all day but maybe a few places back. Still out racing.
On track days my 96bhp xr2 is just as much fun on track. Yes get passed on the straights but price per smile on the bends is great.

[andys]

If you race indoors on carpet - it's simple really - Buy tyres or don't be competitive.
Our club limits rears to 1 set per meeting for the 'Championship' meetings - but at regular club and Wednesday nights meetings - anything goes. A new set of tyres is the difference between the A final and C final - racing is very close and maybe a couple of seconds split around a dozen drivers. New set of tyres can give you a few 10'th's per lap....

Tyres are everything in buggy racing as everything else (kit wise) is a level playing field these days.

[CC44]

We race micro's indoors on carpet - virtually everyone uses foams so the racing is pretty evenly matched. Foams last 6mths+. Micros very rarely break even in pretty big crashes. We want to see youngsters join & race with us & tyres are a big ongoing expense.

Each to his own really.

[Tom3012]

Having a quick scout through this thread and it’s quite interesting! I had my best result at southport oople last year, I qualified 7th in the A (usually just about make the A on a club day!) I used the proline pyramid in the harder compound and used the same set all day, I’ve used them for two club meetings after that and they’re just about dead for racing but fine to do some practice laps... As such they will be my tyre of choice (where permitted) for the upcoming season :thumbsup:

[BuggyRacer]

Good inputs about tyres. So if you wanted to use a firmer, better wearing tyre that still went well. What would you suggest for astro? Anyone tried all 3 of the below?

Proline Pyramid Z3 vs Proline Pinpoints Z3 vs Schumacher Dart Blue

It would still be nice to see a stock class using the above tyres to tighten up the field and get some closer racing with slower motors.

[Danosborne6661]

Schumacher even have a lightweight Laydown out, love this! - https://www.racing-cars.com/cougar-laydown-stock-spec-kit-k181

[daz75]

Schumacher even have a lightweight Laydown out, love this! - https://www.racing-cars.com/cougar-laydown-stock-spec-kit-k181

Who decided to use the captain America colour scheme :D

[gromit]

I am pretty sure it is the late Nicky Hayden's helmet design

[mark christopher]

Who decided to use the captain America colour scheme :D

I am pretty sure it is the late Nicky Hayden's helmet design

Its trish Neal's own body colours one of you is correct.....(daz) :thumbsup:

[xfactor]

Well I think buggy racing has gone well stupid with tyre wear. All the meetings that are on everywhere indoor and outdoor. I've been in talks with the official's of these meetings and talked for days for a solution.

Well Ive come up with these that I've been running for over 12 years with no wear at all, none. I've also saved on shock oil as no matter what you put in it makes no difference, so a saving on tyres and oils.....:thumbsup:

You do get a little roly poly on the odd corner, and the odd double bounce on landings and they do go up in size down the straight by about 4 times the size, but there is actually no wear in 12 yrs of running 5 times a week every week.

BIG advantage with these is also if you turn them around you get a different grip level. Now you don't get that with DARTS do you...….:lol:

Looking at the EOS I think these could be a bonus to those who will be running. I think if we all rock up at the Regionals, Nationals, EUROS and WORLDS with these what they gonna do !!!! ……………….:thumbsup:

What you reckon...………..

[mark christopher]

with these what they gonna do !!!! ……………….:thumbsup:

What you reckon...………..


laugh :woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot:

[Aire valley]

Great idea Mark...:thumbsup:...bring back the fun to racing...!

[mark christopher]

Great idea Mark...:thumbsup:...bring back the fun to racing...!

i have loads fun every time i go :thumbsup: why i have kept doing it for 35 years

[c0sie]

Sorry/not sorry about resurrecting an old thread. Lockdown life has gotten me bored to tears and I've just read all 7 pages to kill time.

Interesting one of the points in a previous page mentioning that Paul W had alluded on a podcast that the top racers use new tyres per run to maintain consistency.

I guess also, at the end of the day, the National series has an important bearing on racing in the Euros where you would probably expect to chuck new rubber on for each heat and final.

Would a sensible approach not be to make changes at a Regional level?
I don't know anywhere near enough about BRCA 1:10th offroad structure but I'm guessing that Regionals feed into Nationals, and the Nationals feed into the Euros etc?

Encourage club and regional level competitor numbers by restricting the control tire to a single selection (I think 1:10th TC only have one control tire?) at the AGM. If Darts don't offer the cost/longevity then get to the AGM in numbers and vote the Pro-Line in (all hypothetical selections of course).

If after dominating your regionals you then decide to make the jump to Nationals you accept that you'll need an OnlyFans account to help fund your tire addiction, but at least you have the option to just stick around a Regional series where the costs are lower.

Most motorsport classes have different tire manufacturers across classes (think WSB, Moto2, MotoGP etc).

Just a boredom related thought :confused:

[HarlowS]

Just to throw another spanner...... This year Ballistics were replaced by Proline tyres for the Telford national. I was dreading the national if it was wet as Prolines were absolutely shocking in the wet and Ballistics were no longer an option.

Tyre wear would of been great but the racing would of been awful, no fun at all. This was proved as we had a few club meetings where people were trying to get wet setups.

[Ron Burgundy]

Personally, I feel the shops and the people who run the racing bodies have a massive conflict of interest. You dig just under the surface and there is always an agenda and the agenda is always money.

Tires are required. They are necessary or you dont race and it means manufacturers, shops etc have a monopoly and will ALWAYS say that their tire is the best, you need their tire to be fast. Its a massive, massive market.

Until there is a member voted control tire (where ALL members provide input and voted) then the system is always and will always be controlled by those with an agenda.

When they stop considering the money earning potential in this decision and who can make a quick buck, and consider ALL racers, then it wont change.

I feel the tires should be ”not for profit” and supplied by governing body only..

[daz75]

Personally, I feel the shops and the people who run the racing bodies have a massive conflict of interest. You dig just under the surface and there is always an agenda and the agenda is always money.

Tires are required. They are necessary or you dont race and it means manufacturers, shops etc have a monopoly and will ALWAYS say that their tire is the best, you need their tire to be fast. Its a massive, massive market.

Until there is a member voted control tire (where ALL members provide input and voted) then the system is always and will always be controlled by those with an agenda.

When they stop considering the money earning potential in this decision and who can make a quick buck, and consider ALL racers, then it wont change.

I feel the tires should be ”not for profit” and supplied by governing body only..

Have you ever run a shop? I can assure you making a quick buck is not easy and removing Tyre revenue would be a big nail in the coffin. Maybe you mean the middlemen/importers where most of the profit goes.
So are you saying if we all voted for schumacher darts schumacher would have to give them away for cost price so they were "not for profit" ? :lol:

[terry.sc]

Personally, I feel the shops and the people who run the racing bodies have a massive conflict of interest. You dig just under the surface and there is always an agenda and the agenda is always money.

Tires are required. They are necessary or you dont race and it means manufacturers, shops etc have a monopoly and will ALWAYS say that their tire is the best, you need their tire to be fast. Its a massive, massive market.

Until there is a member voted control tire (where ALL members provide input and voted) then the system is always and will always be controlled by those with an agenda.

When they stop considering the money earning potential in this decision and who can make a quick buck, and consider ALL racers, then it wont change.

I feel the tires should be ”not for profit” and supplied by governing body only..
I'm going to have to assume Swedens governing body does things different to most countries then.

The BRCA is run by the UKs racers and has no direct affiliation to any manufacturer, nor does any manufacturer or retailer have any say in decisions taken by the BRCA members. the only "agenda" the BRCA has regarding money is keeping costs down for the racers. If you really believe shops have plenty of influence over governing bodies we wouldn't have price limits on motors and batteries, and we wouldn't have limits on tyre use in many classes. Go through all the BRCA committees and you will find very few people actually involved in the r/c industry.

Depending on the classes, spec tyres are either chosen by the racers taking part in the series, or by the clubs themselves who know what works on their tracks. This means the racers have one or two types of tyre to buy for that event. This was introduced by the governing bodies specifically to keep costs down, anyone remember 20 years ago when you needed a literal car boot full of tyres to make sure you had every combination possible just in case, or when touring car racers literally spent hundreds of pounds on tyres, inserts and wheels for practice to find the best combination, as they were limited to only two sets on race day.

The people who race in each category get to choose what tyre they use and how many sets they want to use, the system we have is the one all members have supported previously. Anyone who wants to change the rules can put in a proposal at the AGM and get it voted on by the members. The manufacturers make tyres, it is up to the racers whether they throw on a new set each race or choose something more durable.

[c0sie]

Anyone who wants to change the rules can put in a proposal at the AGM and get it voted on by the members.

I think this is the key part of this debate - any change you wish to see has to come from the members.

I've read through this whole thread twice now, its very interesting. I've also spoken to a few indoor club racers who say that the "stickiest tires possible" mentality has filtered down to their clubs and so people are now racing with tires that need changing through a night.

I don't race 10th off-road competitively so am just commenting from the point of view of an outsider really, but this does filter into other classes too.

There was a comment or quote a few pages back where someone mentioned that PW had said about how Nationals were all about the top racers in the country who would always throw new tires on where possible (I am paraphrasing here). I think I am at a point now where I respectively disagree with that.

Say, for arguments sake, that at each round of the 10th off-road national series you see 120 entries. All things being equal (new tires every round etc) you'll only ever expect between the top 10 and 20 of those drivers to have a realistic chance of making the A-final.

If we ran a National series that was open to the best 20 drivers that year only, with manufacturer sponsorship making the series financially viable it would be different, but we dont - the entry fees from the remaining 100 people (who chances are will never make an A-final, and whose chances of making a B-final are limited) fund the financial viability of the entire national series.

If you could introduce a system where the best 20 drivers at that given time were allowed to race under a given set of rules (with a given control tyre that suited their requirements), maybe where manufacturers/distros are allocated grid slots like in F1 (etc), then you could work your way backwards so the best 21st to 40th driver could race under a set of rules/control tyre that would suit their needs and financial requirements.

Keep going backwards until you run out of people and they are all racing on yellow spikes.

The above is just an idea - I have no idea how it would work, but to me it just seems unfair that the top drivers in the country, who at worst are only paying a few £ per set of tires and at best are getting every set for free run to the same control tyre rules as people in the pull-start finals who feel compelled to run those same tyres but at full RRP.

Either way, an interesting debate that will probably not get resolved at an AGM any time soon :D

[mark christopher]

Personally, I feel the shops and the people who run the racing bodies have a massive conflict of interest. You dig just under the surface and there is always an agenda and the agenda is always money.

Tires are required. They are necessary or you dont race and it means manufacturers, shops etc have a monopoly and will ALWAYS say that their tire is the best, you need their tire to be fast. Its a massive, massive market.

Until there is a member voted control tire (where ALL members provide input and voted) then the system is always and will always be controlled by those with an agenda.

When they stop considering the money earning potential in this decision and who can make a quick buck, and consider ALL racers, then it wont change.

I feel the tires should be ”not for profit” and supplied by governing body only..

you are aware the clubs nominate the tyres for the tracks for nationals dont they?