RC TYRES

[shanks]

Just after your opions here please chaps....

What would you like to see in 1/10th off road tyres?

At the moment it seems Schumacher dominate this market with minispikes/minipins....

What are your thoughts on theese tyres and how if at all do you feel they could be improved on?

Could just be a matter of cost

Could be that you feel a different pattern / compound would be useful

Any comments are welcome

[Si Coe]

I'm not convinced they dominate because they are the best as much as by consensus view that they work fine, last well and it keeps stuff simple. Back in the early 90's I'd have to carry a full sized kit box of tyres around in different shapes and compounds as no one solution worked well everywhere. In dry spells on grass tracks you'd have to change each round as the grass (which favoured cut spikes) was torn up leaving dirt (which favoured full spikes). This was before inserts were common, so you can imagine that after they arrived you'd also need several sets of the same tyres with different inserts etc.

Nowdays its very simple - a set of yellow minispikes with medium inserts will work in the dry pretty much anywhere, and if its wet Ballistics do the same. Thats not to say that other types aren't sometimes better - at Woodvale I had a big advantage due to using TR32's which worked better there than Yellows. However I only ran them because I had them, most people just stuck with yellows, which I'm sure is the case elsewhere too. I've got some Losi step pins that work very well at Bury, but I don't use them as yellows are cheaper and more readily available.

[shanks]

Similar thoughts myslef in that it is more "common opinion" that makes them so popular (obviously they are a very good product)

I imagine that is the barrier to market for a new tyre supplier then....in that it could be difficult to convince people to move away from what they feel "comfartable" with.

I suppose price would be an attraction - a set of schu yellow can be £12-14.

Whats your thoughts on number of tyres sold - uk and globally - got to be in the hundreds of thousands for schu tyres alone?

[coolcars782]

schumacher dominate?? more like bb

[sosidge]

got to be in the hundreds of thousands for schu tyres alone?

You will never learn that figure because it will be closely guarded by Schumacher... but I'm confident that hundreds of thousands is a massive exaggeration...

[shanks]

You will never learn that figure because it will be closely guarded by Schumacher... but I'm confident that hundreds of thousands is a massive exaggeration...


you could be right - i really am just guessing at the moment

[shanks]

schumacher dominate?? more like bb

really? to be honest i was only saying schu dominate from my very limited opinion......most of the guys i know seem to use schu...

[Nick Goodall]

Certainly a good few thousands of pairs sold each year i'd say - It's actually quite rare that they get a massive meeting like the Euro's where Schumacher's are THEE tyre to use as it's usually been on Dirt in the past.....

You can only imagine how many sets of Proline Holeshots get sold world wide though, think of all the small clubs alone in the States where they are pretty much always regarded as the best tyre on dirt - plus all the big races they have - remembering it's a set per run usually, then all the other countries that primarily run on Dirt tracks!

I think Ballistic are the only company to come close to the schumacher tyre but they've tried quite a few different things now but still not actually beaten the Schumacher Yellow minispike - Even those GRP tyres which were a great idea seemed to die off....

I think the original reason Ballistic did so well was mainly down to price but they're no cheaper now so in the dry a minispike works better generally, in the wet i'd agree Ballistic spikes are going to be better or sometimes Pinks can work at certain tracks but mainly in the UK Grass or Astro favours the Schumacher tyre so make some Identical for £5 a pair and you'll be laughing :lol:

[Si Coe]

Well they dominate the tiny UK market, and have a strong showing in Europe, but the truth is that dirt course need a very different sort of tyres, and since that is the favoured surface in the US and Far East, Schumacher is really a fairly minor player in the tyre stakes.
Proline and J-Concepts sell a lot more tyres than Schumacher do, they just don't make grass and astro tyres so we don't tend to use them.

[Si Coe]

IIRC the original Ballistic Buggys were copies of Schumacher full and cut spikes. As in literally copies - they used Schumacher tyres with the labels removed to make the molds! But they couldn't get the compounds the same so were never really as good.

As stated, the rest of the world runs on dirt. Schumacher tyres have never won a Worlds, and are unlikely to as long as they remain on dirt.

[shanks]

thanks fellas so far - all interesting stuff there....

keep it coming....

[Nick Goodall]

IIRC the original Ballistic Buggys were copies of Schumacher full and cut spikes. As in literally copies - they used Schumacher tyres with the labels removed to make the molds! But they couldn't get the compounds the same so were never really as good.

As stated, the rest of the world runs on dirt. Schumacher tyres have never won a Worlds, and are unlikely to as long as they remain on dirt.

1987 - Romsey, the one and only Masami running the Cat XLS on Schumacher tyres!

[Nick Goodall]

And also they used Schumacher BIBX Compound Minispikes and Cut spikes at the 1993 Worlds in Basildon.

[Alfonzo]

The Schumacher tyres are of excellent design, the performance speaks for itself. I'm sure there's room for improvement, as there always is. What happened to the GRP cone things? Everyone was banging on about those for a short while, don't think they worked very well though.

[Nick Goodall]

The Schumacher tyres are of excellent design, the performance speaks for itself. I'm sure there's room for improvement, as there always is. What happened to the GRP cone things? Everyone was banging on about those for a short while, don't think they worked very well though.

I mentioned them too - there was no reason they wouldn't have worked as well as the Schumacher tyre but i don't think the Compound was quite right, they weren't really any cheaper either so i think it was a case of they're not better so stick with the Schumacher tyres.....

I still think it'd be cool if they could nominate an even split of tyres at the Nationals so that some meetings were at least Ballistic buggy tyres, some were Schumacher etc.

[PTRU]

they were not the prefered tyre for the Nats Nick that is why they did not sell in numbers

[DCM]

GRP's never gave the ultimate amount of grip, as a yellow, but, it didn't rely on the edge profile of the spike to make it's grip, so is useable for a lot longer.

Schumacher, as far as I am concerned, need to reduce the tyre cost, to be honest.

[jim76]

GRP were slightly cheaper, came in nice cardboard boxes with stickers and foams. The later compounds they brought out offered a bit more grip until the decided to distribute the tyres themselves and shot themself in the foot.

As Phill said, it was a lack of national support that stopped them gaining a foothold in the UK.

[shanks]

Seems as I thought in that the choice is somewhat limited due to several factors covered above.

I get them impression drivers would be interested in a new tyre or two?

So what are you looking for in a tyre?

1) price
2) compound / grip
3) lifespan
4) availability

in no particular order

What are your requirements?

Are there areas you feel current tyres/manufacturers could be imroved/improved on?

[DCM]

Well, there is no point in having a cheap tyre that either don't grip, or is gone in a run, but if you can get the grip of a yellow, duration and cheaper, then ACE!!

[shanks]

Dcm of course I agree a cheaper yellow would be better

Matching compounds would be easy as would copying tread - I wonder what improvement is available in the tread pattern?

I for one have struggled in the past obtainging tyres when I wanted them- assumme some of you have?

[Si Coe]

Availability will always be something of an issue. After all demand varies with time etc and with location. In the winter it was hard to get minipins just before a Bury indoors meet - local stores only keep limited supplies and demand suddenly shot up as people needed tyres for Sunday.
Likewise minispikes virtually disappeared at the start of summer as everyone stocked up for heading outdoors. This has stabilised and supply is good again.
However, unless Schumacher, or individual shops, hold a large stock in inventory for just such a rush its going to happen. And holding large stocks that aren't currently shifting is a bad business model. Therefore the onus on stockpiling falls to you.


Ultimately the appeal of the yellow minispike to me is its ubiqituousness on UK tracks. It offers consistent grip on the tarmac and brick sections at Bury and Southport just as well as the grass and astro. This is a major departure from my ealry experiences with multi-surface tracks at the old Southend track. There, the popular blue cutspikes of the day wroked well on the grass and astro, but were less effective on the tarmac and pretty poor on the sand/dirt section.

What I'd like therefore is a tyre with the same all round ability of the yellow minispike in the dry, but reduced wear rate. I'd happily pay more if it lasted proportiately longer (ie twice the cost for twice the lifespan). And if it could also work in the wet it would be perfect. A one tyre suits all thing.

[MatJohnson]

But if it lasts twice as long and costs twice as much wouldn't it be easier just to buy 2 more sets of yellows?

[Si Coe]

Not really - after all two sets of yellows need two sets of wheels and two sets of inserts, or at least you faffing with acetone to remove the old worn ones from their wheels so you can fit the new fresh ones on (which often means new inserts as some seem to die in the process).

So whilst yes, the overall cost on tyres is the same, ancillary costs are less and the faff is less.

[shanks]

All good stuff so far

What about colour? Would a colour other than black be handy? I am thinking along the lines of drivng and a lighter colour perhaps helping with the orientation of yr car etc ?

[Answer-RC-Pete]

Does colour not affect longevity - I was always lead to believe that a black tyre wont last as long and go off sooner?

[Kopite]

I'd like to see a copy of the compound and spike of a schumacher yellow minispike, but with a flat carcass (like the minipin). I reckon that'd be awesome on astro turf tracks

Costs for racers in terms of tyres has increased, regardless of what people say. The speeds of cars are so much faster than years ago, we're chewing them up way quicker.

[shanks]

see what your saying there

a flat profile theoretically would give less flex and therefore more direct/accurate control....

I am wondering whether its is possible to to use two compounds on a tyre

i.e. minispikes in yellow - with perhaps a set of softer spikes sat bewteeen which would provide the grip in wet conditions.....maybe im being a little optomistic there!!!

Of course it would be possible manufacture wise - just wonder whether it would work in reality

[Nick Goodall]

Colour wise they have to be black, anything else will just look daft imo.

I think as Stan says the power of the cars etc is so high now that tyres are getting worn even quicker then before..... I don't honestly think there's a lot you can do about wear - If a tyre works it will wear out, it's pretty simple unfortunate.

The main thing is going to be Cost!

If you can get a tyre that is almost as good as a Schumacher Yellow Minispike but only costs say £5 with an insert i'm sure tracks would opt for them as a national tyre, and people will obviously be happier even if the tyre isn't QUITE as good as the other option - if everyone is running the same tyres it shouldn't matter if they don't work quite as well.

I think the other option that seems to have gone away these days is 3-piece rims that you can bolt the tyres to, obviously if someone could come up with a better design then the old AE one that could be another big saver on costs and you could just use one or two sets of rims all year.

[Answer-RC-Pete]

Would a flat tyre not be less progressive in brake away?

[Nick Goodall]

Would a flat tyre not be less progressive in brake away?

A flat tyre should work for longer in a way, as rarely do you ever wear out a minispike all the way across, it tends to just be the middle few rows due to the profile of it....

I would think you'll have less side bite with a flat profile tyre but to be honest grip on astro with yellows isn't a problem anyway so i can see how it would work.

[Si Coe]

Colour wise it doesn't have to be black, but that colour is there for a good reason (its carbon powder) and different coloured rubber does work a little differently.

Multi-compound tyres are getting more common in the bicycle world which tend to feature harder wearing rubber in the middle for long lifespans but softer compounds on the edge strips for more bite. However bicycle tyres are of a much more complex construction with many layers of fabric supporting the rubber and this is needed for a multi part tyre to stay in one piece. It could be done, but would cost significantly more.

What about proper pneumatic tyres? Again these would carry increased cost but you'd never need inserts again. Just set the pressure to suit the track......

[Nick Goodall]

Colour wise it doesn't have to be black, but that colour is there for a good reason (its carbon powder) and different coloured rubber does work a little differently.

Multi-compound tyres are getting more common in the bicycle world which tend to feature harder wearing rubber in the middle for long lifespans but softer compounds on the edge strips for more bite. However bicycle tyres are of a much more complex construction with many layers of fabric supporting the rubber and this is needed for a multi part tyre to stay in one piece. It could be done, but would cost significantly more.

What about proper pneumatic tyres? Again these would carry increased cost but you'd never need inserts again. Just set the pressure to suit the track......

I think anything other then Black is going to look pretty stupid though personally??

I know they use a lot of Muti-compound tyres in on road bike racing but obviously that works as they completely lean the tyre over when cornering and stand it up to accelerate - same as i guess you're saying with Bicycles so this isn't really going to work on 4-wheeled buggys.....

I like the idea of pneumatic tyres, if you could link that in with 3-piece rims that actually sealed the tyre on the wheel it should be possible??

This sort of improvement in technology would surely have to come through 8th first due to the amount of money in that compared to 10th racing these days - Plus the fact they have 40 minute finals etc things like Tyre pressures would be more critical?

[Fabs]

I think a tyre that offers less side bite and more forward traction than the mini spikes would work really well. We end up cutting 4 rows on the front of 4WD tyres and 1 or 2 at the rear to avoid grip roll. Seems to me there's something to look into there, and possibly that would help with wear rate as most of the wear goes from forward traction.

[Si Coe]

Very good point Fabs. Can't think of anyone who doesn't trim the outer spikes on front mini's so why are they made with them?

[shanks]

Yes good point fabs

Being new to racing - at first i was told to trim outer rows to prevent the grip rolling i seemed to be getting (bury metro track)

However since then i havent bothered and dont suffer grip roll at all...

Though it was because i had sorted my set-up out properly and got a little better driving.....

Last week at bury i used a brand new set of minispikes and the only thing close to a grip roll was when i landed off the double with lock on rather than leeting the car land and then turning...

limited experience so not really representative of course...

[Northy]

Very good point Fabs. Can't think of anyone who doesn't trim the outer spikes on front mini's so why are they made with them?

Because the same mould is used to make greens? And usually you leave all the spikes on them in the wet..... ;)

G

[Fabs]

Because the same mould is used to make greens? And usually you leave all the spikes on them in the wet..... ;)

G


Well I for one would rather not see a tyre developped to work in both conditions so it wouldn't bother me if it was not to work in the wet...

[MattW]

When you're looking at a mould, it needs to be able to be used for as many tyres as possible - to pay for itself. So i can't see a situation where a tyre manufacture would be up for using a mould for just one compound - and having one that was nearly the same but with more spikes for other conditions. The other thing with yellows is that they are used indoors as well - where you don't want to trim them.

Multi compounds is interesting - but i have a feeling that there may currently be a rule against it. Could be wrong though. Cost?

Pneumatic - again, intereresting, can see how it might be able to work with 8th, but not sure for 10th there is space for the valve? i'm thinking aloud here, nothing more. Would have to be very confident with the seal as well. Any accident damage to the rim (and let's face it, we all have wheels with bits chewed/missing) and you're in trouble again.

Flatter tyre would would definitely give more drive, if that's what you want i guess. Guess it would suit some cars and tracks, and not so much others. Would also need to alter setup quite a bit i think, specifically around roll centre and camber change to get the best from them. Should all be possible though. TTech did try making a flatter tyre some years ago. Was a bit "marmite" if i recall. Worked very well on some tracks, and really not good on others. They did 3 compounds i think, but can't remember how they compared to "yellow". Schumacher also did a similar pattern - something of a "stubby" type tyre, don't think that was what it was called - may have been.

Someone asked what happened to GRP - well, personally i actually thought they were starting to get somewhere, it actually looked like there was a chance they could break into the market from where i was sitting. However, then they decided they didn't need a UK importer, so i think that would have finished them off. If if that didn't the fire probably would have. Not sure if they are still doing 10th tyres? have a feeling not.

I think a lot of stuff has been tried over the years already, however, the 2.2" minispike has seen them all off. The old 2" was actually flatter as well - in fact fully flat i think, and i guess the 2.2 was better, or else it wouldn't have been replaced.

I'm confident that a "better" could be made, but no one has managed it so far!

[CBRDEAN0]

I'm all for a lightweight split rim design wheel to get rid of the glueing and make the wheels easier to re-use.

[AiR]

Hi,

In soon coming Finnish indoor offroad winter season we will be using Schumacher's tyres.

Specific models are:
2WD/4wd rear = Mini Pin U6608 (yellow)
4wd front = Mini Pin U6607 (yellow)

In the rules it says that we can use only 1set/race, which is nice for the costs.

There has been questions about how they will last indoors? What kind of lap/run amounts we are talking with these specific tyre models? Are they in best form right from the start or do they need to be run in?

Thanks! :)