Central heating problem

[Northy]

Hi all,

We have a central heating problem. The thermostat 'clicks' when you turn it, but the boiler does not fire into life. It's an ideal classic if that makes a difference. Should the pilot be on all the time?

Any ideas? Both Julie and me are feeling ill at the moment, and with Mia ~16 months old it's not an ideal situation :cry:

Cheers,

G

[David Church]

Hi all,

We have a central heating problem. The thermostat 'clicks' when you turn it, but the boiler does not fire into life. It's an ideal classic if that makes a difference. Should the pilot be on all the time?

Any ideas? Both Julie and me are feeling ill at the moment, and with Mia ~16 months old it's not an ideal situation :cry:

Cheers,

G

I am not a boiler guy, but if it's a mega flow system the storage cylinder is low on water the boiler will not fire.

[bodgit]

If you are both feeling ill get a carbon monoxide tester/alarm sooner rather than later,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/carbonmonoxide1.shtml#symptoms

[Northy]

I've followed the instructions on the back of the front panel to light the pilot. Turn off, set thermostat to 6, turn on. It says it should then light after a few seconds, but there is nothing, no noises, nothing. It's as if it isn't getting power. Where does it get its power from? The box under it that you set the on/off times etc (no idea what its called)?

G

[bigred5765]

no idea g i would get a trained chappy in,pilote light f,u,d stabe in the dark,

[bodgit]

If you,ve got the gas meter outside the house have you checked to see if some joker has turned it off.

[David Church]

I've followed the instructions on the back of the front panel to light the pilot. Turn off, set thermostat to 6, turn on. It says it should then light after a few seconds, but there is nothing, no noises, nothing. It's as if it isn't getting power. Where does it get its power from? The box under it that you set the on/off times etc (no idea what its called)?

G


Check your main house electric panel to make sure it hasnt tripped, there should also be a fused spur near the boiler, a wire from the boiler to a plug like box on the wall where a fuse may be.

Just a few ideas.

[Rich D]

Im no boiler expert either. However, is your system pressurised from the mains water supply ? Some of them are and have a safety lockout. If this is the case then there will be a pressure gauge and a water supply shut off valve somewhere near it. If you have removed any rads recently then the pressure will of dropped and may need restoring.

Like i said im no expert - im in the cooling trade ;)

Failing that you could try asking here for about £7. Never used the site before but it looks like you post your question and pay some plumber to answer it for you.

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/1mkm0-ideal-classic-lxff-boiler-seems

[Alfonzo]

The click of the thermostat is the bimetallic switch? this closes an electrical circuit and 'tells' the boiler to fire, assuming the timer isn't overiding it? Pretty sure the pilot light should be on 24/7. Essentially it's either preventing itself from firing for some pre-programmed reason, or it's knacked. Have you had a good read through the manual (maybe downloadable if necessary)?

Agree with Mr Church - check the electrics. Hell, we all know electicity is the route of most our problems! :lol:

[Northy]

Right, found a manual here:

http://www.idealboilers.com/docs/html/classic_he_manual.html

In the trouble shooting the first thing it asks is "is the neon lit on the PCB", well no it's not :cry: - i've got it in bits now :lol:

I need to know where this thing is powered from.

There is the box underneath to set the time of day etc, with a fused switch next to it. The fuse is ok (checked) and when I turn the switch off the timer box goes off. Does this switch also isolate the boiler? The fuse is only 3A, seems a bit small to me.

Cheers,

G

[Rich D]

3A will be fine - its only a control circuit fuse and carries no load - gonna read the manual ;)

[chris68nufc]

No, thats the correct size fuse. Dont change it. If the switch is turning the programmer off then at least you know you have power.
Can you turn the boiler Hot water onto constant?
Can you turn the Central heating to constant?
What happens?
Have you got Gas at another appliance that you can try to check the gas is ok?

[Rich D]

Looking at the wiring diagram the PCB is fed from the overheat thermostat so thats where id look first. There should be a mini fuse on the pcb too. After that im fooked. Not worth the risk of buggering about with it if your not confident - you dont want to poison your family with CO do ya :cry:

[Northy]

On the timer box thing under the boiler I can set it to "on", think I tried that earlier, but will try again.

I'll go try the gas too.

1 sec.

G

[chris68nufc]

Make sure that the room stat is fully on ie 30 degrees or number 10 etc.

[Northy]

Yeh, room thermostat on, mains switch on, timer box set to on, switch on front of boiler on, still no neon lit on boiler pcb :cry:

[Rich D]

There might be a manual reset button on that overheat thermostat - according to the wiring diagram it should have two brown wires going to it. Mains supply -- overheat stat -- switch on boiler fascia -- pcb neon should be lit :thumbsup:

[Northy]

Yup, mains comes in and goes throught the overheat stat before getting to the PCB. The button hasn't popped out though :(

G

[Rich D]

If you have 240V to the PCB but the neon isnt lit and the mini fuse upon it hasnt blown then i would guess that the PCB is fooked Graham :cry:

[DCM]

if you have no pilot light, then the issue is on the boiler, and not the thermostat/timer, I would think.

You need to assess if you got gas pressure, water pressure (if a combi), if you got that, then I would think it is an internal fault on the boiler. Call out the cowboys... I mean, British Gas, they do a one off repair fee.

[JCJC]

Sounds like you need a pucker 'gas safe' chappie (used to be called corgi) most common problem is the thermocouple that sits in the pilot flame, when hot provides a voltage to the gas valve, big lump that controls the gas, if the pilot goes out the gas valve switches off the gas supply in case it comes back on, ain't lit and gasses you, also if the thermocouple fails then the the gas valve won't get a voltage - no gas, all good fitters will have one with them.

[ashleyb4]

I would take the front cover off find the input power terminals and check for a supply.

A

[Northy]

I can't seem to get the box bit holding the PCB enough to really start probing about with a multi meter :cry:

Looks to me like it's past what I can do anyway at 10pm at night when I'm feeling like shit anyway.

Looks like we're in for a cold night :cry::cry:

I'll have to get a man out to look at it tomorrow. Does anyone know anyone good around the Malton area?

G

[AndrewCaunt]

there is a three way valve in airing cupboard they stick on when heating hasent been on for a while normally if you pull them manually they some times free off :thumbsup:

[Northy]

We haven't had the heating on over summer, but had it back on for about the last week or so and it's been working fine.

G

[Rich D]

there is a three way valve in airing cupboard they stick on when heating hasent been on for a while normally if you pull them manually they some times free off :thumbsup:

Id of thought that this would give you a "hot water only" or "Central heating only" symptom rather than a no pilot light

I dont know much about gas but im 99% it wont be that, the three way valve just diverts the duty to either heating the hot water or the rads.

i reckon its most likely an electronics fault personally. Like you said G best to get a qualified guy out and have it serviced at the same time. Watch what he does and do it yourself next time - thats what i do :)

[Alfonzo]

Get the hot water bottles out. Good luck with it.

[AndrewCaunt]

I went round to hulmey tc3 the other day it worked on his they seize up and the water cannot pump around system it confuses the boiler

[Northy]

Quick update, I got brave with the multimeter. There is not 240V on the first mains block inside the unit, so I'm gonna take the timer box to bits, any suggestions?

G

[sosidge]

Before you call out British Gas or a local heating engineer - call Ideal.

They may well do a fixed fee repair themselves.

If they are anything like the Vokera engineer that sorted our boiler, they will have a van full of parts and know the boilers inside out.

[Rich D]

There may be a wiring diagram in the inside cover of the timer. I dont know how they are wired though - sorry mate. probably a permanent live and neutral for the motor within the timeclock ( if its a mechanical one ), an output for hot water and an output for heating. These are guesses though based on what i know about refrigeration controls. Good luck

[AndrewCaunt]

check fuse in fuse spur:thumbsup:

[DCM]

on the off chance, have you checked the main power connector block on the RHS of the boiler, whether there is voltage there

[Northy]

Thats where I checked boss, before the Overheat stat :(

[DCM]

what timer do you have, and does the timer have two cables coming out of it, one for live feed, one switching?

[ashleyb4]

Take some covers off and take some pics of connections etc.

A

[Northy]

Timer is an ACL Lifestyle LP241.

I can't work out how to get into it :cry:

G

[Rich D]

http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/instructions/LP.pdf

;)

[Northy]

got that, doesn't say how to take it to bits :(

G

[Rich D]

If in doubt, give it a clout :thumbsup:

[Rich D]

In seriousness - looks like it uses a "wall plate" - im assuming that the whole thing pulls off the wall exposing a wall plate with the terminals :confused:

[Northy]

I'll have a go.

How do I frig the 'mid position valve' in the airing cupboard for some heat? :confused:

G

[Rich D]

No pilot light = no heat regardless of the position of that valve. Your timeclock is an electronic one. Could well be that if theres no output from it :thumbsup:

[ashleyb4]

Screw on the bottom?

A

[Rich D]

Can you hear the switch within the timer "clicking" when you switch from off/all day/twice ? If not i reckon that you could be onto the problem. You can bridge the wiring to get you going if so

[JCJC]

Quick update, I got brave with the multimeter. There is not 240V on the first mains block inside the unit, so I'm gonna take the timer box to bits, any suggestions?

G

U's really brave, then you need the 10 way connector as per page 30, assuming the original fitter used one, all neutrals are on pin 2, live goes to clock/timer/programmer, call for heat/switches to ON, live goes to room thermostat on heating side and clyinder thermostat on hot water side, back via 10 way connector to diverter valve ( you may have 1 three way or 2 single valves) the live opens the valve. this is the tricky bit - when the valve is fully open it trips a micro switch in the valve, the micro switch has a permanent live which goes to the boiler & pump via the 10 way connector and switches both to on/run, as posted above there is a sliding lever on the side of the valve that manually opens and trips the micro switch to on. So the live is connected by a series of switches, they all have to be in ON mode to open the valve, when the valve is open a live is allowed to the boiler, the boiler cannot run if the valve is closed, keeps you safe.
Of course the fitter may not have used this system, may have used other positions - anything
Mostly I think you need a qualified person, get to bed with a hottie bottie

[Charlie Ware]

Charlie's Dad

Graham, STOP NOW.

I'm an electrican and an M&E engineer and deal with these things all day long.

If you not careful this will end in tears. Apologies to all those are being helpful but playing with gas and electric is best not done.

Chances are it's something simple like the pilot light's just gone out, could be a coincidence that the neon has gone as well or you never noticed before and it's never even been on.
Try the pilot light procedure again but hold in the ignition button for longer before and about 20 seconds after and make sure you can see where the pilot light should be lit


The electric shouldn't have turned itself off or blown a fuse for no reason, once the heating has been off all summer the pilot light is prone to going out until it has been on for a month or so.

If you 100% sure it is the electric turn off the breaker (then prove it's off) before working on it or if not confident call out the sparky

No one can really diagnose this online it could almost be anything.



Steve

[Northy]

I'm an engineer too ;)

Well I've had the timer switch to bits, nothing obvious there.

When you cycle through from 'off' to 'on' the relays click.

So I'm gonna leave it for tonight and call a man in. Not sure the baby will cope well with a hot water bottle though :cry:

I'm off to bed, I've got suspected Swine Flu :thumbdown:

Thanks everyone.

G

[Rich D]

I wouldn't of advised if i didn't already know he was an Electronics boff Steve but ultimately you are right.

Hope its not too expensive, let us know what it was :thumbsup:

[JCJC]

Very, very good advice, but I also know hes a capable boy, if you look at the boiler wiring the power will only be at the boiler connector when all the other parts of the circuit are calling for heat if it has been wired to the book, but having been in the building industry a few to many years ......................

[Northy]

Thanks guys,

Right, back on this as I'm cold this morning and still feel like shit.

The Timer switch clicks when you cycle between on and off, so the relays are clicking in, so could it be the thermostat? It clicks, but that's just the bimetalic switch? It might not actually be switching power through? Does it switch the mains through?

Do I just have to replace things with new bits? :confused:

[BRS]

Firstly I'm not an expert, what I would do is test for power out the timer box if youre not getting any power out then just hot wire into the boiler for now from the supply to see if you can get the thing fired up (establish it should be a 240v feed going in from the timer box).

If you can get it fired up that way you can at least get your wallet warmed up for when the Heating Engineer arrives :cry:

[bodgit]

who is your supplier. If its BG and you have duel fuel they will come out and fix it for £99 inc parts. They are stopping this soon and asking £2 a month but will still only charge £99 fixed fee for any boiler electrical or drain problems.

[Northy]

Right, who knows about wiring for central heating?

I've taken the back box off for the timer switches, and I have:

mains feed in - Red, black and earth
cable to boiler - Brown, Blue and earth
cable to thermostat - Red, Blue,Yellow + Earth
mystery cable - red,black and earth

I have no idea where this mystery cable goes but think it could be part of the problem. It goes into the wall and up.

The neutral of it is bundled into all the other neutrals.
The earth is to all other earths - obviously
The live goes into a bit of chocolate block to connect to the live for the boiler. As the boiler isn't getting power, then whatever is on the other end of this cable might be at fault.

Had plumber round, he says it's electrical so can't touch it.

G

[MikePimlott]

up to a cylinder stat or frost stat???

[Northy]

That's what I'm thinking Mike, I'm now in the airing cupboard :thumbsup:

G

[JCJC]

See my post from last night, live is a series of switches, runs via timer, roomstat to diverter valve, stop there, timer must be on, stat must be on this is all possibly 240v, with timer on & stat on the valve should open, when open it also trips a microswitch with its own permanent live feed, the live should go from the microswitch to the boiler & pump switching them on.

The diverter valve micro switch & motor are items you will reconise, they often fail, is there a 10 way junction box where all these cables connect in to each other.

Added: if you are in the airing cupboard with the cly stat and a screwdriver/tester tningy with a neon in the handle you should be able to carefully check the IN terminal & the OUT terminal and move the stat to insure its working.

[Northy]

JCJC, I think we're onto something now.

The only way I can get the boiler to run is turn the room thermostat up so that clicks on, then turn the tank thermostat so that clicks on.

I can turn the boiler on or off by the tank thermostat but not the room thermostat. Does that point to anything at fault?

I'm a bit lost by your description, but yes, there is a junction box in the airing cupboard with loads of wires in! Two wires coming in from downstairs (timer swich and room stat?) and wires going to the tank stat, pump anf the 3 way valve thingy.

G

[AndrewCaunt]

Told you that three way thingy can seize up opperate it manuley it might be that thanks Andrew:thumbsup:

[Northy]

How do you manually dance it? :confused:

Good news is I don't seem to have swine flu, am feeling better and have learnt a bit about heating systems today :lol:

G

[AndrewCaunt]

Is there a lever on the three way valve it is normaly metal just try moving it they stick it might take a few trys thanks Andrew

[Northy]

There is a plastic lever sticking out of the side of it, but it won't budge and I'm scared to snap it off! :woot:

Will taking the top off make it any easier?

G

[Stu]

G, is the pump running you gaylord. I assume from the age of your gaffe that the boiler is of the type that does not have a permanent pilot?

[Northy]

If I turn the tank stat up to something like 70 degrees the system runs for a bit, but that can't be right can it? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

G

[JCJC]

There is a plastic lever sticking out of the side of it, but it won't budge and I'm scared to snap it off! :woot:

Will taking the top off make it any easier?

G

I have pm'ed you as well, valve motor is like a big servo, twists the valve open, they do get stuck, if you have not used the heating this summer it possibly been in the same position for 6 months.

[AmiSMB]

A few years ago I when my Glowworm Fuelsaver F did not start I found the problem was with the flue fan not working so replaced that and it ran fine. Recently I had another issue and found an issue with the PCB HT circuitry. I found the website www.keeptheheaton.com (http://www.keeptheheaton.com) which does spares for most biler manufacturers and got a new PCB, HT cable and a new pilot light device next day and now she fires up like a treat. Just replaced the central heating pump over the weekend and now the heating is working really well and everything is nice and toasty.

[Northy]

OK, I can move the lever on the valve with the power off, but not with it on.

Anyone any ideas?

G

[Northy]

OK, another update, and this will only make sense to a few people.

The system is wired in a Y plan.

The magic orange wire that puts live to the motor and boiler goes live when the tank thermostat runs the system.

It does not when the room thermostat clicks on - but there is a live getting from the room stat to the wiring in the airing cupboard.

So my conclusion is the the mid position valve is fubared and I'll have to pay a man to change it! :lol:

Thanks for everyone's help.

G

[Rich D]

Pleased you got it sussed :). The only reason i didn't suspect that valve was the culprit was because mine failed some time ago and it gave me a symptom of central heating would work but no hot water ( or vice verca i cant remember which ). It was the little motor that was fubared on mine - not the valve itself.

Anyway, alls well that ends well :)

[bodgit]

try www.myhammer.co.uk (http://www.myhammer.co.uk) for a plumber

[Bungleaio]

Oople - For all your RC and central heating queries.

[JCJC]

OK, I can move the lever on the valve with the power off, but not with it on.

Anyone any ideas?

G

Just like a servo, motors powered, resisting (stronger than your thumb):woot:

[dodgydiy]

You should be able to change the valve head yourself easily, no need to touch the pipework. most makes are held on by just two screws, head slips off, new one slips on. valves are a common cause of problems, y plan is a pain in the ass with problems sometimes though. S plan is simple. may well be just the micro switch. if it is then the pump should fire up with the roomstat clicking on but boiler not start. have a lok on the net for a honeywell Y plan circuit diagram, will help you understand how it works

[JCJC]

If I turn the tank stat up to something like 70 degrees the system runs for a bit, but that can't be right can it? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

G

Is there an electric heater on, is the tank full of hot water ?

[dave g]

why not sack the central heating off and just light a gypsy fire in an old tin on the living room floor?