Why do the USA guys have stock class?

[chrispattinson]

Just been reading a thread discussing race meetings, and it was mentioned that in the USA, there is stock class and mod class for most RC disciplines.
After looking online, it seems this is common throughout the USA.
There are specific speedos out just for Stock class, which maximise the slower motors performance through timing advances.
Why do these two classes still exist? I understand when brushed motors were around, it wouldve been a cost / maintenance thing.... but 'mod' racing is so accessable now cost wise, it seems strange to me that some people opt to keep the stock class running??

[bigred5765]

it should level out the playing field and make it all about the driver, in theory

[chrispattinson]

it should level out the playing field and make it all about the driver, in theory
yeah, thats what I thought it was about in the brushed motor days . . . . but now, my car is as fast as Neil Cragg's, and its all about the driver's driving/car setup, hence he p#*s*s all over my laptimes at Worksop.
And with all the dynamic timing tricks available, it seems that stock class encourages more voodoo to make your car better than the others than mod racing.

[DCM]

I think it has more to do with the slick tracks too, where you still get reasonable speed out of a stock motor too...

[Hog]

Perhaps I could point you towards the success story of FORCC (Faversham Off Road Car Club - look for it in the club section).

We only race stock due to the size of our hall. 63 drivers on a Wednesday night can't be wrong.

You don't have to be doing 100mph to have fun you know.

[Garry]

And the American mentality of everyone having to be a winner.

I kid you not, at the International Indoor Carpet champs in Vegas last year (my bro went over and did 2 classes), they had the following all taking place at the same event:

Amateur 17.5 Rubber Tire Sedan
13.5 Rubber Tire Sedan
Modified Rubber Tire Sedan
17.5 Foam Tire Sedan
13.5 Foam Tire Sedan
Modified Foam Tire Sedan
17.5 1/12 Scale
13.5 1/12 Scale
Modified 1/12 Scale
World GT 13.5
Expert World GT 10.5

40ish heats...first heat on the line at 7am.....last one starting gone 7pm. :woot:

[DCM]

In certain classes of on-road, running more than 10.5 is really hairy, also, certain sections homologate ESC's, and with the advent of brushless, it has caused some headaches.

[James]

Its for two reasons as i understand it:

1: Stock is cheaper

2: So the club/regional drivers can race in a class that they can win or do well in.

I dont believe (in off-road) that its to create a level playing field. As pointed out earlier any decent branded equipment these days is pretty much similar, its very hard to get a performance advantage from your electrical system over another, you just need to know how to set it up right :confused:

[mark christopher]

arnt stock speedos, cells and motors all the same price as the full blown stuff?

[BagofSkill]

In my experience 'stock' classes are slower, so easier to drive for novices and people without the mad skills, there's alot less wear and tear on equipment, you don't need top line batts to finish a race (now negated by Li-Po) you probably crash less and don't crash as hard so break less stuff.

If you look at it the other way it's only UK off road that has dropped stock classes. Everywhere else in the world (that I know) and UK on road still runs separate 'stock' 'super stock' and 'mod' classes in most electric categories.

Re the timing advance speedos, in any type of controlled racing, when everyone is on the same level, getting a little advantage is a big deal, so even in the brushed days people always opted for the best speedo's and lots of tuning tricks for stock or 27t/19t racing.

[Hog]

If you look at it the other way it's only UK off road that has dropped stock classes.


Really? Perhaps at Regional and National level yes - but I can prove it's still popular at Club level.

[AndyF]

The loss of std class at Batley was the reason I gave up many years ago. Back then mod motors were three times the price of std and the cells you needed to last 5 minutes also three time the price of standard unmatched 1200 (yes 1200mAh) that could keep a 27T motor spinning 6 minutes plus. So in the end, as a mid teen I just could not afford to be competitive.

However. If from what I read even the cheapest import motors and lipos from china can give you 5 mins and more speed than normal humans can control then I guess the only cost factor then is the DAMAGE!

[DCM]

on and off-road are different, and motor limit is due to track sizes, I know racing 10.5 in my saloon is as quick as racing mod 4wd buggy. Outdoors in off-road, mod is the best, but at club level, I see a place for stock motors, but at a BRCA national series, I see no point in a stock class, that is where smaller series should be.

[mole2k]

My local club is indoors on polished wood in a small church hall. We run a 10.5t motor limit as generally speaking anything more just produces wheelspin. The top few guys could easily run hotter motors and be quicker but the 10.5 limit is good as it stops the less experienced people putting really quick motors in. I know lots of other buggy clubs do the same.

Im not a fan of stock motors outside or even in high grip conditions indoors, 10.5t on polished wood feels about as quick outdoors with a 7.5t.

[DaSloth]

Perhaps I could point you towards the success story of FORCC (Faversham Off Road Car Club - look for it in the club section).

We only race stock due to the size of our hall. 63 drivers on a Wednesday night can't be wrong.

You don't have to be doing 100mph to have fun you know.

No one is saying its wrong, but the fact you're so popular is down to how well you're running the club etc.

If you could double or triple the size of your hall, people would run mod right? Same as PDA, you run the motor which is appropriate for the size.

The way i see it, stock and mod have swapped around in terms of having to spend alot to be quick. I came from TC back in august time and the amount of money and time people we're spending on making the cars quicker was silly. Now i've come to Off road, i've my put my Tekin's in my Cars and 5.5 and 7.5 respectively and i love it. I wouldnt want to put a 13.5 in for stotfold or EPR for example, but when i go to PDA or faversham i would more than happily put my 13.5 in and enjoy it.

I think the americans have alot of smaller outdoor club tracks where as we dont seem to in the UK so i guess it makes sense for the main class here to be mod.

It does get a bit silly in america though with the likes of the IIC and snowbirds where its like 15 classes all consisting of 20-30 people if that (mod at the snowbirds was 16 ppl! :yawn:) I'd rather race in a class of 120 people to really see how well im doing :)

[Tractor Boy]

At the southeast regional series last year we had 20 plus kids taking part and a lot of the under 13 class run 13.5 brushless outside on grass at faversham and westkent tracks and they used the same at EPR.

So you see there is a place for such motors at regional level and you must have seen how well the southeast has been doing over the last few years and this year will be the same i think.

Speed is not the be all and end all at times trust me.

[MRD]

The 20t sealed can 540 Class at York indoor is brilliant for beginners and pros. Its fast enough to be fun but it makes for some close racing, plus tyre's last two or three times longer.

I was using an old 4wd Lazer Zx5 with an HPI Saturn 20t and managed to get a faster time than the 2wd modifieds could manage :D

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs175.snc3/20258_1396389270173_1245451677_1183647_2197996_n.j pg

[jameswilkinson7]

The 20t sealed can 540 Class at York indoor is brilliant for beginners and pros. Its fast enough to be fun but it makes for some close racing, plus tyre's last two or three times longer.

I was using an old 4wd Lazer Zx5 with an HPI Saturn 20t and managed to get a faster time than the 2wd modifieds could manage :D

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs175.snc3/20258_1396389270173_1245451677_1183647_2197996_n.j pg
Congratulations Mark...

nothing like blowing your own trumpet is there!:woot: Still though its rare you get the chance!

[MRD]

My trumpet was made for blowing ;).

[SlowOne]

yeah, thats what I thought it was about in the brushed motor days . . . . but now, my car is as fast as Neil Cragg's, and its all about the driver's driving/car setup, hence he p#*s*s all over my laptimes at Worksop.
And with all the dynamic timing tricks available, it seems that stock class encourages more voodoo to make your car better than the others than mod racing.No more voodoo, as you put it, than was involved in tuning a stock brushed motor. Part of the rationale for killing BR was that BL was easier, and now people are moaning about the speedo voodoo!!

I think it has more to do with the slick tracks too, where you still get reasonable speed out of a stock motor too...Slick tracks in off-road, and small club tracks in TC and 12th. Most racing in the US is at small clubs. They have three or four Regional events each year, and one National. We have a National series and Regional series for each class, most of which are on the same tracks. Those tracks are usually the same ones, large, and well laid out. Running Mod os no problem here, but on most US tracks it's a waste of time and costs loads in spares, etc.

So, because Stock is easier to drive on smaller/slicker tracks, and because it keeps running costs down, it is very popular Stateside. Also remember that it is very popular in track classes in mainland Europe, too.

And the American mentality of everyone having to be a winner.

I kid you not, at the International Indoor Carpet champs in Vegas last year (my bro went over and did 2 classes), they had the following all taking place at the same event:

Amateur 17.5 Rubber Tire Sedan
13.5 Rubber Tire Sedan
Modified Rubber Tire Sedan
17.5 Foam Tire Sedan
13.5 Foam Tire Sedan
Modified Foam Tire Sedan
17.5 1/12 Scale
13.5 1/12 Scale
Modified 1/12 Scale
World GT 13.5
Expert World GT 10.5

40ish heats...first heat on the line at 7am.....last one starting gone 7pm. :woot:That's another American speciality - running a class for anyone who wants to race. They don't push people into one class at the expense of others, they cater for lots of classes. That way they get big entries, and they have lots of funds. Again, in the UK we are unusual in insisting on single classes at meetings, most others run multiple classes.

The USA has stock classes because it attracts the biggest population of drivers by far. The biggest class at Vegas was 13.5 TC, followed by Amateur 17.5 TC. The smallest class was 12th Modified! Vegas was a fantastic race, and some of the best racing was in the Stock classes. They like their Stock, Stateside... ;)

[fidspeed]

There are a few aspects here here's my twopennorth

where i race (touring Cars) we run two classes our "stock class" allows 27t brushed motors or 15.5 and above brushless or prostock 13.5 brushless .
we run on a polished wood floor anything above 13.5 is pointless as there is not enough grip.
brushed technology is not dead ,admittedly brushless is taking over .but while i can purcase top spec brushed speedos for £20 and motors for pennies i can still be competitve in stock class
brushless tech is not cheap and many youngsters and dads ! just cannot afford it . Many of us started with a tamiya and a clockwork charger from our local model shop. that avenue is slowly closing
not all of of us want to race at any more than club level.

just my opinion (my wife says i can have one just this once)

Dave Fiddling Louth radio Control Car Club

[MRD]

Many of us started with a tamiya and a clockwork charger from our local model shop

I think I might still have one with a mechanical timer :lol:. What a way to charge batteries.

[Alfonzo]

Better than the old Mardave Ministock supplied charger. Twas just a resistor, not even a timer! So opportunities for burning yourself and exploding Nicads! :woot:

Sorry - off topic

[Hog]

If you could double or triple the size of your hall, people would run mod right?

If we had a hall 2 or 3 times the size then we would possibly open up to a mod class. But then part of the reason behind running stock is as others have quoted - any more power and there just isn't the grip available on a polished wooden floor.

Some of the appeal of the stock class is the close racing it encourages - there's not the "have or have not" element - and after all close racing is what makes it fun!

[Richard Lowe]

In my experience the guys in the US are a bit more conservative with their motor choice vs their skill level. In my visits over there for the Clash I don't think I've ever seen someone driving a motor they can't handle. But over here goto any random club meeting and 50% of the field are running way more power than they can handle/take advantage of.

It's us that are power mad :woot:

Years ago at Harrogate club meetings we ran the same 27t's in a stock class for a season or so and it was some of the best racing I've ever done. The cars were so underpowered and slow every tiny thing with your driving made a difference, and as everyone used the same motor and agreed we weren't going to fiddle with them everyones was the same speed.

[pugboy]

In my experience the guys in the US are a bit more conservative with their motor choice vs their skill level. In my visits over there for the Clash I don't think I've ever seen someone driving a motor they can't handle. But over here goto any random club meeting and 50% of the field are running way more power than they can handle/take advantage of.

It's us that are power mad :woot:

Years ago at Harrogate club meetings we ran the same 27t's in a stock class for a season or so and it was some of the best racing I've ever done. The cars were so underpowered and slow every tiny thing with your driving made a difference, and as everyone used the same motor and agreed we weren't going to fiddle with them everyones was the same speed.

I would agree with this, I used to race at a similar club in Poynton, Cheshire in a relatively small hall about 20 years ago. Everyone ran the 27t 12 quid motors as they were then but we were able to lay pretty tight tracks and the racing was very close and the lack of straight line speed was simply not an issue. You couldn't afford a single mistake if you wanted to win. There was a regular turn out of 50+ drivers every Wed evening. They used to have Std class in the Radio Race Car outdooor series which again was very close racing, and although the lack of speed was much more apparent on the outdoor tracks it was a way in to the sport for novices not to feel too overawed and to learn basic driving skills before 'graduating' to modified class.

Coming back to racing last year after a number of years out and straight into modified brushless was in at the deep end and a club like the one of old would defintely have been beneficial in getting my skills up again.

My experience of starting in the bottom heats again has been varied and I think that a Stock class (or even just one or two heats at a bigger meeting) would be useful for the novices to all compete together and not have the issues where one car is driving up the straight at half the speed of the others, and weaving as they go, whereas if they had a stock class that would not happen.

[mole2k]

My experience of starting in the bottom heats again has been varied and I think that a Stock class (or even just one or two heats at a bigger meeting) would be useful for the novices to all compete together and not have the issues where one car is driving up the straight at half the speed of the others, and weaving as they go, whereas if they had a stock class that would not happen.

Part of the issue with that is that I know of quite a few drivers in that sorta position in the bottom heats wouldnt go and race in a stock heat as they would want to be racing what the vast majority of people race.

I would love to arrange a night at my local club on polishwood where we all switch to silvercans just for a bit of fun.

[Si Coe]

Thing is everyone always says control classes are a great idea, saves money, makes it all about the driver etc, but they forget a tiny little point.
If the class prevents the other guy having an equipment advantage over you, it also prevents you having an advantage over them too. The idea that the best driver wins sounds good, until you realize that it isn't you and never will be and there is nothing you can do about it.
So what happens is you get people in control classes following the letter of the rules but not the spirit. In the old £15 27t days some people would buy 4-5 motors, dyno them all and only race the best one. Nowdays you can use a £50 Hobbywing esc in mod racing to no real disadvantage but in stock you need a £200 variable timing esc to stand a chance.
The only cost controlled class in the UK to stand the test of time are the Mardaves, and then only because they are so crude and so simple any attempt to 'improve' them invariably backfires.

[lochness42]

arnt stock speedos, cells and motors all the same price as the full blown stuff?

speedoes are getting actually more expensive than modified ones and you have to replace them more often to keep fighting for top positions.


In general most newbies can't handle modified at all and stock class was supposed to be for such drivers to race with car that has according speed to their skills and still be able to fight for trophy. Problem is that stock classes (at least in TC's) are getting to speeds of modified just you have to spend much more and that's problem.

I did attend one race at Faversham when I was in UK for The Players The Rematch - it was fun, certainly good oportunity for newbies.

[MRD]

The 10.5 touring guys are running motors so hard they pop for fun and I aint spending £80 every few month just to try and keep up so I'm running modified this year on club days. I can be fast without stressing the motor too much :).

[Northy]

The only cost controlled class in the UK to stand the test of time are the Mardaves, and then only because they are so crude and so simple any attempt to 'improve' them invariably backfires.

I was interested in having a go at Mardaves as I thought it would be cheap, but was told it was all about having THE right tyre for the track. I don't want to get into tyre truing :(

G

[MRD]

I was interested in having a go at Mardaves as I thought it would be cheap, but was told it was all about having THE right tyre for the track. I don't want to get into tyre truing :(

G

I just bought one, second hand of course ( not paying £85 for a bit of ali plate and some plastic parts ) but I'm gonna run it lazy style. 2 different rear tyres and one set of fronts and not a tyre truer in sight. I won't win but I'm hoping it'll be a giggle :D

[SlowOne]

All these descriptions of Stock racing I recognise, and enjoyed over the years. There's one missing...

We raced from a grid start (not staggered) and we had to race with others - hitting them was the best guarantee of a bad time! And we enjoyed a good race, often irrespective of who won. These days, all I read is about wanting to win. The most fun I have had in this hobby is a good, fair race - win or lose. :thumbsup:

Where'd that go?...

[Chris Doughty]

All these descriptions of Stock racing I recognise, and enjoyed over the years. There's one missing...

We raced from a grid start (not staggered) and we had to race with others - hitting them was the best guarantee of a bad time! And we enjoyed a good race, often irrespective of who won. These days, all I read is about wanting to win. The most fun I have had in this hobby is a good, fair race - win or lose. :thumbsup:

Where'd that go?...

out the same door that money walked in through?

[Northy]

I just bought one, second hand of course ( not paying £85 for a bit of ali plate and some plastic parts ) but I'm gonna run it lazy style. 2 different rear tyres and one set of fronts and not a tyre truer in sight. I won't win but I'm hoping it'll be a giggle :D

To race at Shurburn? Let me know how it goes :D

Also, I'd have to buy a cheap (and gash) speedo to race, can't use one of the MANY brushed speedos I have lying around! :woot: How does that save me money? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

G

[fidspeed]

I think i am getting Confused now between stock and modified . I class Stock as 27T brushed not any brushless going :confused:

any how mardaves are brilliant fun the "right" tyre will only cost £2.99 a pair i never bother to true them they soon bed in :thumbsup:

there is still great fun to be had running the same motor the top guys will still be at the top because they maximize the equipment allocated .remember the tamiya series with handout motors and batteries they were very popular series

Dave (too old too slow)

[fidspeed]

can't use one of the MANY brushed speedos I have lying around! :woot: How does that save me money? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

sell them to me northy:thumbsup:

Dave

[5POINTSTAR]

Slick tracks in off-road, and small club tracks in TC and 12th. Most racing in the US is at small clubs. They have three or four Regional events each year, and one National. We have a National series and Regional series for each class, most of which are on the same tracks. Those tracks are usually the same ones, large, and well laid out. Running Mod os no problem here, but on most US tracks it's a waste of time and costs loads in spares, etc.

So, because Stock is easier to drive on smaller/slicker tracks, and because it keeps running costs down, it is very popular Stateside. Also remember that it is very popular in track classes in mainland Europe, too.

That's another American speciality - running a class for anyone who wants to race. They don't push people into one class at the expense of others, they cater for lots of classes. That way they get big entries, and they have lots of funds. Again, in the UK we are unusual in insisting on single classes at meetings, most others run multiple classes.

The USA has stock classes because it attracts the biggest population of drivers by far. The biggest class at Vegas was 13.5 TC, followed by Amateur 17.5 TC. The smallest class was 12th Modified! Vegas was a fantastic race, and some of the best racing was in the Stock classes. They like their Stock, Stateside... ;)
Great post, well done.
Onroad stock racing is popular here (USA) because most tracks are outdoors and on the small side. Stock onroad is very popular and its an easy way to keep those who race electric Offroad 2WD/4WD Mod/Corr truck and Nitro 10th/8th scale (onroad/offroad) involved in the electric onroad scene.

For example, at our local Electric Onroad track where we only run stock (27T/17.5), some of the racers are Nitro racers (onroad and offroad). The Nitro crowd finds time to race Friday nights because its fun, not expensive and competitive.

Most of the Amateurs (17.5 class) race at the IIC (The Vegas race) are locals that I race with and again, most of them are Offroad and Nitro racers.

Cheap way to race when all is said and done ;).

[pugboy]

All these descriptions of Stock racing I recognise, and enjoyed over the years. There's one missing...

We raced from a grid start (not staggered) and we had to race with others - hitting them was the best guarantee of a bad time! And we enjoyed a good race, often irrespective of who won. These days, all I read is about wanting to win. The most fun I have had in this hobby is a good, fair race - win or lose. :thumbsup:

Where'd that go?...

Totally agree with this, the best fun to be had is good and clean racing, when you get in a heat with one or two others of very similar level and have some close racing, switching positions with none or very slight contact (elbow in the ribs or finger in the eye works best!:thumbsup:)

I take the point about costs not being really any less now and the one about 'selected' 27t in the old days. In indoor buggy racing it made very little difference, but in outdoor it was noticeable.