Marshalling duties

[David Church]

I had an incident during my final at Taplow last Sunday that made me want to ask this question and see what sort of debate would follow.
As a marshall what is expected of you.
The situation that happened to me.
I had made my way up to 3rd after starting 6th in the A final, second place crashed, I saw it out of the corner of my eye, I decided to go round the outside of the crashed car which would have put me in 2nd, as I went wide the marshall ran out to marshall the crashed car, whilst doing this managed to kick my car into the wall, as he was marshalling the crashed car a few more ran into the marshall, he put the 2nd place car on his wheels, then put the cars that had run into him on their wheels, then saw my car up against the wall. I was then marshalled, I lost some 6 seconds and 4 places, well race over, no chance after this.
So what takes priority when marshalling, the crashed car or the cars coming?
If the marshall would have left the crashed car I would have been in 2nd, if he would have marshalled without getting the way I may have been secong, for sure I would have remained in third.
Should the marshall be 100% sure he does not affect any other cars race, or marshall the car that had earned the better position as fast as possible.
Let the debat begin.
I have seen a wide and varied level of marshalls at many different races. I think this is an interesting topic.
I was a bit disappointed with what happened to me in my final, but after that's racing,or is it???

[Jamie.T]

This is an excellent debate DC and one im sure a situation many racers have found themselves in.

Personally i think the marshal should have waited untill all the cars including yours had gone through, and then recovered the rolled car when it was clear. I dont think its acceptable for the marshal to kick your car whether it be accidental or not, but he should have certainly recovered your car before any of the other cars behind you.

[HarlowS]

What a can of worms !!! :p

But if you were the car 2 that had crashed, and the marshal let all the cars past and then got to you, and losing 6 places because the Marshal waited.... Would you be asking the same question ??

[Crazy L]

Marshalling is, in my opinion, somewhat of a grey area. It shouldn't be I know. Some people say the first priority is the marshalls safety. Well, If you're in 8th off road or large scale it most defo is, but as for 1/10th off road, it's the first car that crashed, then the next one and so on.

I've been in races where the marshall is too busy watching the race to notice which one crashed first, which is frustrating to say the least.

Your dude should have been paying attention. Simple as that, nothing can be done, so I'm afraid it goes down to a racing incident:thumbdown:

[David Church]

I agree, but to be fair the the marshal, he didn't even know he had kicked it, haha. And to make it even worse, he apologised to the guys he marshalled first, after the race, and didnt even look at me hahahaha

[Pops]

As a marshal its easy to get over excited... I used to!! My new approach( after being abused numerous times!!) is..you crash.. your fault! I wont get in anyones way or for that matter, put your car down in front of someone elses car! Thats my opinion, however i always move as quick as i can ( unlike some people who really cant be arsed and who usually shout the loudest when they are racing!) As for your experience DC, i really sympathise and feel your dissapointment.

[coolcars782]

Second place shouldn't have crashed :lol:

[David Church]

What a can of worms !!! :p

But if you were the car 2 that had crashed, and the marshal let all the cars past and then got to you, and losing 6 places because the Marshal waited.... Would you be asking the same question ??

Most likely not be asking the same question, but I have seen this sort of thing happen before, and it happening tome has given me the platform to post the question on here, and hopefully raise the awareness to the impact marshalling has on our racing lives. I hope this debate will improve all of our marshalling!!!

[David Church]

As a marshal its easy to get over excited... I used to!! My new approach( after being abused numerous times!!) is..you crash.. your fault! I wont get in anyones way or for that matter, put your car down in front of someone elses car! Thats my opinion, however i always move as quick as i can ( unlike some people who really cant be arsed and who usually shout the loudest when they are racing!) As for your experience DC, i really sympathise and feel your dissapointment.

Cheers dood!!!
I had a great day racing at Taplow and 2nd would have been wonderful, but this little incident did not dampen my days racing at all!!! Sh1t happens eh!!!

[Freakypen]

Marshalling can be difficult at times depending on the marshalling positions etc but in my opinion you never run out in front of another car.:confused:
If you can safely get to the 1st car in time ( without interfering with any other car ) then ok-but generally a clue'd in marshall should be sensible about it.
After all-as a racer they would be pretty annoyed like you DC if it happened to them.

[RudeTony]

No argument or debate in my mind Dave - the priority of a marshall must be with the cars still racing just like popping on ball joints etc.

My pet hate is if a car crashes and you have no where to go but to go into it and the marshall picks up the crashed car and puts it in front of you - man oh man do I see red with that LOL !!

[peetbee]

IMO the marshall should be 100% sure he does not affect any other cars race.

In the example you gave the marshall not paying attention to the other cars could have gotten himself an injury as a result of them hitting him.

As long as the marshall is poised to rescue the crashed car as soon as is safe then I don't think you can ask for any more.

[David Church]

I will be the advocate,

say the marshal thought he could get to the crashed car without affecting another's race?
What then?

And what's the best way to get a "marshalling standards" type of attitude across?
At drivers briefing??? A show and tell video??? Tell your mates???

This is a good debate!!!!

[DCM]

Marshal cars as you wished to marshal, but you must be aware of what is happening to be effective, if you are standing there with your finger up your nose, chatting to your mate etc, your not being effective.

As for the order they are marshalled, that's a difficult one, if you drive into a crashed car, are you any more deserving to be marshalled first? If you hit a marshal cause they haven't paid attention to what is happening and run in front of your car, yes you should be marshalled first.

In the end, nobody is a 'trained' marshal, so can't be treated as such, and in the end, safety first!

[mikeyscott]

Marshalling can be difficult at times depending on the marshalling positions etc but in my opinion you never run out in front of another car.:confused:
If you can safely get to the 1st car in time ( without interfering with any other car ) then ok-but generally a clue'd in marshall should be sensible about it.
After all-as a racer they would be pretty annoyed like you DC if it happened to them.

Pretty much my view and club standard marshalling can vary massively.

However the distinguishing aspect is lazy Vs accidental incidents. That's what pisses me off.

[racingdwarf]

The marshall should get to the car if it is safe for him to do so, And not get hit (this is formost in your mind with rallyx:D) If you hit him or errm he ran into you, realy he should not have been there as he should have waited and was well within his right to do so untill all cars had passed.

Now how many times in a big final has a marshall be hailed a hero for some die hard marshelling to one of the front runners, yet if he had got it wrong, slipped over been hit be the cars in 2nd 3rd and 4th thus letting the other places through and costing a top boy some points, more than lightly he would have been informed he was an ahole by most of the racers and there followers.

So in the case at the start of the thred the car should have sat on it's lid untill you had passed, as he made the mistake in the first place and would have to wait.

but this said, if you are on the mashall point what would you have done? split second decision that we all get wrong now and again...you must do at your age Mr church:lol:

[RudeTony]

mmmm!!!
I think if the marshall feels he is going to make it and with all good intentions fails to make it then we will have to kill him afterwards LOL

I think if the marshall is just stupid then, well, what can I say the first part would have to be true !!!!

It's common sence surely Dave - is it not???

[Gnarly Old Dog]

Its a conspiracy Dave - they're all out to get you :p:p

I reckon good skills to the marshall - after all, he managed to accurately kick your car out of the ball park - and the way you drive matey, that's no mean feat - :woot::woot:

In all serious now - it's impossible to say whether or not he was paying attention without actually being there. What is more feasible is that he made an initial misjudgement - which fortunately didn't end up in an injury - and then compounded it at your unfortunate cost.
In an ideal world, the marshal will make accurate split second judgements, not endanger themselves and not impede others but just as in racing (assuming the marshall was concentrating), he has to make a split second judgement call and in this instance, it went horribly wrong for you.

Obviously, the more feasible explanation is that he just didn't like your shell dude :p

[peetbee]

I will be the advocate,

say the marshal thought he could get to the crashed car without affecting another's race?
What then?

And what's the best way to get a "marshalling standards" type of attitude across?
At drivers briefing??? A show and tell video??? Tell your mates???

This is a good debate!!!!
You would hope that was the case, but some don't pay attention, I have no idea how you would enforce it or 'publicise' it....

At club we often have a hard job just getting people out to marshall, let alone getting them to be effective once they are there!
Once you find the answer please don't forget to share!!

[David Church]

Yes it's common sense Tony,But even I, the Dc, have got it wrong, thanks Dwarf for pointing this out!!!
But let's try and educate people to get it right more often!!!

[David Church]

And GOD has spoken!!! That's Gnarley old dog!!!
Thanks Andy, that's made me smile!!!

I think the best that can come from this is......wait for it...... better marshalling!!!! Job done:thumbsup:

[racingdwarf]

Haha I've driven in a national B final, and had more pressure marshelling the start of the A:lol:

You need to sharpen you reflexes dave, Most would have avoided his foot:p

[simoncrabb]

Now as not the most agile bloke in the world (even though I do carry it well), my marshalling skills aren't supreme.

But, I do try to keep an eye on my part of the track, and I always try to avoid oncoming cars, got to look before leaping.

I've recently realised that often you can pause too long, often a step or two and you're on the otherside of the path of the car that's on the way. It takes practise to realise how far away a car needs to be before you know you can't set off.

I love the idea of a show and tell. You know things like how to flip a car back over - hand underneath, roll it over, but not too far, preferably all whilst in the direction you are moving in to make it nice and quick. Maybe it's something clubs could do with younger / newer drivers.

We've all seen very random marshalling, mashalling by grabbing a wheel, a wing, shock tower, or using a foot.

It's a can of worms for sure. But one thing is clear to me, the better drivers 99% of the time are better marshalls. They seem to be able to predict an incident, are often up and moving before it's even happened!

Babble babble, waffle waffle.

[c0sie]

There is alot of pressure on marshalls to perform their duties faultlessly for fear of tonnes of abuse/swearing/dodgy looks from those on the rostrum during and after the race.

Totally agree that if you crash its your fault/keep the cars that are running as your priority but there are so many people out there who are shouting at the marshalls as soon as they can see their car is in trouble.

[David Church]

Well I would have missed his foot, but there was no room on the inside as the cars behind me all found out, oh and I am a rubbish driver as well, think this may have had something to do with it haha.

And lets get it done Crabby!!! A "How to marshal" video!!!!

[David Church]

There is alot of pressure on marshalls to perform their duties faultlessly for fear of tonnes of abuse/swearing/dodgy looks from those on the rostrum during and after the race.

Totally agree that if you crash its your fault/keep the cars that are running as your priority but there are so many people out there who are shouting at the marshalls as soon as they can see their car is in trouble.

I think I gave it a "Aw come on man" cry hehehehe

[Schudave]

i think the safest time to marshall a crashed car is when the race is over. you think you have got time but the speed of the cars they are on you before you know it [remember the words in the song SHALL I GO OR SHALL I STAY] its the marshalls call.

[c0sie]

If that had happened to me DC id have been narked for sure!

[David Church]

i think the safest time to marshall a crashed car is when the race is over. you think you have got time but the speed of the cars they are on you before you know it [remember the words in the song SHALL I GO OR SHALL I STAY] its the marshalls call.

This is a great idea if you are behind the car when it crashes, but not so good if it's you that crashes:D

[David Church]

If that had happened to me DC id have been narked for sure!

I am old now, so I was pissed off for about 3 seconds, then I abused Griff, aka Wagner for the rest of the final haha

[reg]

i think as long as they are trying to be as quick and helpfull as possible we cant complain,im sure we have won or done better from an on the ball mashall that we have not even given a second thought to,i think the biggest pain it when people just stoll over,kick it with there foot or no matter which way its facing they just turn it over even if you facing the wrong way

[David Church]

i think as long as they are trying to be as quick and helpfull as possible we cant complain,im sure we have won or done better from an on the ball mashall that we have not even given a second thought to,i think the biggest pain it when people just stoll over,kick it with there foot or no matter which way its facing they just turn it over even if you facing the wrong way

Great, another opinion!!! Come on you lot, debate........................

[Richard Lowe]

When I marshall I always try to get to cars in the order they stuffed it, though it doesn't always work out that way :lol:

The only exceptions being if there's a car in a dangerous place (eg middle of the straight) or if I've taken another car out on my way to the first crash, then they get priority. Also if someone blatantly runs into the back of someone else I make sure they're away last :p

So long as people put the effort in I'm happy, some people are physically more/less agile but if they're doing their best than that's all anyone can ask really. There are one or two people I can think of who don't seem to give a stuff when marshalling (no names mentioned...), that annoy's me as usually they are the first to complain if a marshal takes a little while to get to their car...

[Jonesy]

The biggest issue I can see here is DC's example, if it is true then DC is suggesting he made an 'A' final, that can't be true so debate over.... :lol:


My views are the same as Rich Lowe, I try my hardest to keep out the way of racing cars and if there is more than one crashed car then they go back in the order they stuffed it

[David Church]

The biggest issue I can see here is DC's example, if it is true then DC is suggesting he made an 'A' final, that can't be true so debate over.... :lol:


My views are the same as Rich Lowe, I try my hardest to keep out the way of racing cars and if there is more than one crashed car then they go back in the order they stuffed it

Jonesy....feck off!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH:p:p:p thanks for your support on marshalling reform

[DaSloth]

Marshal should have waited, but without knowing how close you were before he stepped out, its hard to say.

In my opinion, if in doubt, wait! not just for the sake of the on coming cars, but also for your own safety.

Added: its harder if the person was "taken out" but if its there own mistake, even more reason not to rush out, its their own fault :)

[sosidge]

I had an incident during my final at Taplow last Sunday that made me want to ask this question and see what sort of debate would follow.
As a marshall what is expected of you.
The situation that happened to me.
I had made my way up to 3rd after starting 6th in the A final, second place crashed, I saw it out of the corner of my eye, I decided to go round the outside of the crashed car which would have put me in 2nd, as I went wide the marshall ran out to marshall the crashed car, whilst doing this managed to kick my car into the wall, as he was marshalling the crashed car a few more ran into the marshall, he put the 2nd place car on his wheels, then put the cars that had run into him on their wheels, then saw my car up against the wall. I was then marshalled, I lost some 6 seconds and 4 places, well race over, no chance after this.
So what takes priority when marshalling, the crashed car or the cars coming?
If the marshall would have left the crashed car I would have been in 2nd, if he would have marshalled without getting the way I may have been secong, for sure I would have remained in third.
Should the marshall be 100% sure he does not affect any other cars race, or marshall the car that had earned the better position as fast as possible.
Let the debat begin.
I have seen a wide and varied level of marshalls at many different races. I think this is an interesting topic.
I was a bit disappointed with what happened to me in my final, but after that's racing,or is it???

Very simple answer from me.

The marshal's first responsibility is not to interfere with anyone's race.

If there is traffic coming, the marshal ABSOLUTELY should not step out into its path.

If that means he has to wait 10 seconds while the field goes past and the driver of the crashed car shouts abuse, so be it.

[PaulRotheram]

I try to marshal as quick and efficient as I can, as thats how i'd like other to do so.
However Marshals are there to correct a drivers mistake, if a driver makes a mistake they cant complain, if you're affected by another drivers mistake and a marshal cocks it up, then indeed that is racing.

If a marshal is trying to help, then thats great, however if theyre talking, in a day dream, on their phone then that grinds my gears and i'd be prepared to let rip then.

[Dudders]

Top Thread :D

I always used to enjoy marshalling and I took as much pride and care with it as I did my racing. I also had a motto of marshall as if you we're racing.

Incidents do occur and a simple appology goes A LONG WAY :thumbsup:.

I'm sure we all try our best and have to understand 'shit happens'.

One could say, dont crash.....................:woot:

[revo madnesss]

i agree with all the points you guys have made but i think your slightly forgetting that no one is perfect and sometimes makes mistakes, just like the car in position 2.

you can train someone for a few hours on how to marshal but it all comes down to reactions, the earlier you spot the problem the shorter the time the rc is going to be immobilized

[blue_pinky]

Without seeing it first hand it's obviously hard to say, but I go with the "don't interfere with other peoples races and wait" theory.

And if I did accidentally interfere with another cars race, maybe I'd try and shift my attention to putting the interfered car back first before getting to the original crashed car.

Not crashing is obviously the fastest way around, as winning races is not about having the best marshalling. Although we all appreciate good marshalling as well when we do crash!

And as Pops pointed out, the eagerness to help is often hard to control, your still a racer when your marshalling and for the most part people do try their best to assist the drivers who've crashed, especially at bigger meetings where there is a little more at stake, and there is 'generally' a lot of respect for the faster guys that are inevitably in the race after you.

But you only get a split second to make a decision, that decision will be based on many factors, one of which is experience...

...I bet that particular marshall makes a different call the next time he's in the situation, and as long as someone points out those kinds of errors to the less experienced in a respectful way....then hopefully they/we can only learn from those moments.

We're all human after all, and I bet the top racers / marshalls get in wrong once in a while too!

[Nightshade]

I don't have much experience at this, as I've only just started.
Not really addressing the original question, but as for the part of interfering with the rest of the race, my thought is if you make the decision to step out and address the first car, finish that first and move on to the pile up around your foot.
The times I've marshalled we've had a tight track, so I try to cross the track and right the car in one go. I'd finish what I was doing, then turn to the poor sods car I just booted. It's maybe not the 'fairest' thing to do, but once I've committed to sorting a car I think it'd probably take more time to switch to the crash I've caused.
Difficult to please everyone, whether you decided to stay or go.

Still it can be daunting & stressful. I wonder if the marshal from the original post is on oOple.....
On a marginally off topic note, how many times do buggies with reverse catch you out ?:D

[Battle_axe]

If I marshal I try to marshal in order of crash so the first to crash is marshaled first then I see that as fair

[passy]

I don't have a copy to hand but does the BRCA handbook that we all receive every year have a marshaling code of conduct in it?

If it doesn't, then maybe one should be put together and then brought to the BRCAs attention?

Nobody is a trained marshal, something that appears common sense to a seasoned veteran may not be immediately obvious to the beginner. For example, one of my pet hates is when a car is on it's roof and the driver pins the throttle whilst wobbling the steering. After getting various tyre burns from these incidents I soon made my mind up that I wouldn't marshal any cars that are on throttle.

[joelwhite]

Marshal how you would want to be marshaled. Watch your corner not the race. Hands out of pockets, no phones,food or drink.

Also turn marshals are an absoulte luxury. Without them racing may be tougher.

[passy]

I remember at a Christmas fun meeting at Batley for one round we ran without marshals, if you crashed that was the end of your run. I think the FTD for the day was actually set in that round; however it was a harsh lesson for some.

In HK for touring car we don't have turn marshals, it's the job of your pit man to put you back on your wheels. It's a good incentive to not crash if you know it's probably going to cost you a lap.

[baD]

My views are:
There is no simple instruction to cover all possible incidents.

There are racing incidents, carless driving and complete take-outs for a start.

Main point - Marshalls should never interfere with other drivers (don't take that the wrong way)
or put themselves in danger.
It is always a split second decision - funny tho sometimes drivers with the quickest reaction times for driving can have poor reaction times for marshalling.

It is not always a case of marshalling cars in the order they crash, unless there are separate unconnected incidents.
If A is at fault colliding with B, then A should get away first. Not an easy decision always. If A collides with B and in so doing they take out C coming along behind, then the order to get away should be B, C, A. i.e If A causes a pile up, A should be last away.
If a marshal does cause an accident, before getting to the crash he was going for, then the cars he collided with get put back in their running order, if possible, before the original crashed car, he shouldn't have crashed.

Any marshal who doesn't put a car back facing the right way should lose his TQ.
Failing to spot an incident by 'daydreaming' should incur a time penalty on their best Q of the day, or on their Final time, or even their next meeting if penalising their Final is of no consequence.

[MatJohnson]

Failing to spot an incident by 'daydreaming' should incur a time penalty on their best Q of the day, or on their Final time, or even their next meeting if penalising their Final is of no consequence.

Nice idea, but you can't monitor it, whats to say the marshal doesn't come off saying "it wasn't safe"?

If its clear go marshal the car, if there are others coming wait, but at least make an attempt to get the car. But it does depend on what part of the track it is as well, no-one is going to step out into the middle of the straight with other cars around, but low speed corners you might get away with it.

[mikerobinson83]

at plymouth rc we run leecy and nitro together as it keeps the numbers up durring hard times such as these, and i have lost count of the amount of time a marshall has come running back to the pits with a car only to find out its leccy, this is frustrating to say the least.

we also have the saftey first policy because our chairman got ahead of himself once went out to marshall a car on the triple only to by greeted by a hyper 9e to the temple,he was ok not even a cut, but we have a laugh about it at every drivers meeting now.

it get frustrating if you are on the end of slow/bad marshalling but you would feel so bad if you were to cause an accident and hurt a marshall or member of the public, trust me i know because i was racing at an event held off site by my club, caught the rope on the outside of the last corner and ended up shooting off flat chat into a small child who was standing in the pit area,needless to say i did not finish the race as i was shaken at thinking i had just injured a small child (he was ok,thank god)
at the end of the day we take part in a hobby where if things go wrong people will get hurt,thats why we all have insurance with our brca membership.and in this culture of blame we have saftey has to come first

[RobW]

A couple of peeps have mentioned the lack of training for marshals. I know in the past at the start of the 12th Nationals season Jim Spencer has taken the first couple of heats aside and gives them a 2 min instruction/reminder of a few marshalling pointers. I found it really useful when I started 12th as the cars were like rats on acid and could come round ridiculously quick – it wasn’t rocket science but it did make you think a bit.

They were simple things like putting yourself in a safe position to marshal the cars first and where to put cars down – difficult to explain in words but very easy for an experienced driver to show at a track. Any club could do that in 2 minutes after the drivers briefing.

In DC’s example, the marshal made an error of judgement – he did not have time to marshal the 2nd place car before DC came round. My view is pretty clear that circulating cars have priority. The fact that he marshalled DC last was an innocent mistake as he did not know he had kicked the car in the first place.

However annoying it was for DC at the time at least the marshal was attentive!! Eating/chatting on your mobile/smoking/wandering over slowly to cars to tap them over with the toe of your shoe does not make you look cool – it makes you look selfish and inconsiderate. I know this sort of thing tends to get clamped down on more at bigger events but it happens week in, week out at club meetings where our younger drivers learn their behaviour.

Rob

[c0sie]

You all need to realise as well that as soon as you move away from your designated marshalling position, on to the track to marshall a car you are doing so at your own risk.

Its all well and good trying to move like spider man, jumping around like a ballerina to marshall all these stricken cars but if you hurt yourself doing so you could suffer for the rest of your life.

I managed to ruin my back by just picking a 12mm spanner off the floor wrongly 10 years ago, and now I have nerve damage and no feeling in my left toes for the rest of my life....just because of a 12mm spanner lol. All I did was lean over a little too far and bang, slipped disc (now removed), damaged sciatic nerve, limp, dead foot..etc.

Imagine what you could do to yourself if you slipped on a car or piece of carpet and it all went terribly wrong.

Yes marshalls should be alert, but they should never feel under pressure to perform whilst compromising their safety.

[F1END]

... For example, one of my pet hates is when a car is on it's roof and the driver pins the throttle whilst wobbling the steering. After getting various tyre burns from these incidents I soon made my mind up that I wouldn't marshal any cars that are on throttle.

I agree.

I recently took my 6 year old lad along to a club night and he was really keen to marshall. He's quite a clever and sensible lad for his age, and the first thing I taught him was to look for cars coming before stepping out onto the track.

He did very well, until someone did exactly that to him... just as he picked the car up, the guy span the wheels, scared the life out of him, and he dropped the car on it's roof. When he picked it up again, the guy did the same thing... so my lad just held the car and looked at him until he stopped, then put the car back on the track.

The guy wasn't at all happy about it, but I think my lad did the right thing... It can be very dangerous to apply the throttle when a car is in someones hands.

But back on topic, I think the guy should have his nerve-endings tested... how can you kick a car into a wall and not notice?!

[jameswilkinson7]

I agree.

I recently took my 6 year old lad along to a club night and he was really keen to marshall. He's quite a clever and sensible lad for his age, and the first thing I taught him was to look for cars coming before stepping out onto the track.

He did very well, until someone did exactly that to him... just as he picked the car up, the guy span the wheels, scared the life out of him, and he dropped the car on it's roof. When he picked it up again, the guy did the same thing... so my lad just held the car and looked at him until he stopped, then put the car back on the track.

The guy wasn't at all happy about it, but I think my lad did the right thing... It can be very dangerous to apply the throttle when a car is in someones hands.

But back on topic, I think the guy should have his nerve-endings tested... how can you kick a car into a wall and not notice?!


Wow ... That is out of order... I would have furious if that had happened to my 6 year old son...

[dale]

Perhaps everyone should have to marshall at a 1/8th circuit meeting for a day before getting a BRCA licence. Everyone would soon have the hang of paying attention and not running infront of cars :lol:

It's really pretty simple; the first priority is marshall safety. The second priority are the drivers that managed not to crash in the first place. The third priority is getting the crashed car sorted.

[qatmix]

Marshals just have to be alert, you cant complain if they are trying their best. At a small track there are times when its never properly 'safe' to jump onto the track.

Also the amount of drivers that spin the wheels etc is unforgivable, just leave the cars there until they stop it. If a driver spins the wheels if you are holding the car you should put it off the track, loosing a race is perfectly fair against someone trying to injure you.:thumbdown:

[pugboy]

This is a debate that could go on for hours because there is no simple answer. The first thing should be that it should be clear at marshall points which part of the track they are responsible for marshalling, and the marshall points should be positioned so that as far as possible they don't obstruct the view of the track. Then all you can ask is that Marshalls pay attention and don't watch the race for the lead or what their mate is doing (although we have probably all done it truth be known), but concentrate on thier part of the track. Try as best as possible to put cars on in the right order and try to avoid getting in the way of the other cars. Sometimes a driver will crash in a black spot on the track, or when another person is being marshalled, and that is just tough. Sometimes as a marshall you will make mistakes, but hold your had up and acknowledge it and most racers will accept that.

What gets my goat is:

1. Marshalls who think they are too good to be turning over cars in 'lesser' races and leisurely saunter over.

2. Racers who shout 'come on marshall!' (or worse) as soon as they themselves have made a mistake from pushing too hard or misjudging part of the track.

Great debate though!:thumbsup:

[flipside]

Cool thread. A few weeks ago I wrote an article about marshalling, but it's in dutch :-)

It all comes down to common sense! Marshalls should look at their safety, and try not to interfere with other peoples race.

There is no fixed ruleset, but 90% of the time you can follow a few simple rules that will result in good marshalling.

Here's my article, might translate it at some point! And video's are planned :-) http://www.rc-offroad.be/bnkinfo-marshall.htm (maybe try google translate :) )

In DC's case, the marshall surely had to wait. You shouldn't be punished for someone else making a mistake. At the start of a final for example, if you crash in one of the first corners, you will be be last for sure, as everyone is still driving very closely, so no marshall can interfere.

[baD]

Spinning the wheels while waiting to be marshalled is a big no no!
Most BRCA sections have a rule re moving parts like spur gears being covered by the body shell, for safety, same for revving car wheels while crashed.
The kid above who just held it and refused to try to put it down did right.
Most clubs in my area gave out Marshalling notes along with memberships in years gone by (not so many now as new members are fewer) and this included 'do not touch cars while they are spinning the wheels'. I have placed a car off track on it's back due to this.

I believe 1/10th Nationals & some Regionals give penalties for 'bad marshalling' so no reason not to do the same at clubs - if it is spotted, penalise it. Some won't be spotted but that is not a reason for not having the rule.

[RogerM]

When I have to marshal a car I try to think through the following order;

1) is it safe, especially near jumps
2) how far away is the next car ... don't want to compromise somebody's run who hasn't made a mistake
3) what order where the cars in when they crashed, restoring pre crash race order is only fair
4) did one of the crashed cars make a deliberate move to take out another, if so the order of marshalling favours the innocent party
5) are any of the cars spinning their wheels ... they don't get touched till they stop spinning and if they start again when I'm holding the car they get dropped till they stop again ... safety first. I think its more acceptable to spin the wheels to attract the marshal's attention than to scream "MAAARRRRSSSHHHHHAAAAAALLLLLLLL!" but once they are approaching your car stick the brakes on please.

All the time I try to keep points 1) & 2) in mind.

Another thing that annoys me, and I try to avoid as a marshal too, is when a marshal gets in the direct line of sight of an apex or tricky feature .... if you can't get back to your point without risking upsetting somebody's run then try to get out of line of sight (duck etc) in a safe place till the track is clear again.

I think it's fair to say that marshalling and driving standards seem to have improved dramatically with the drivers who have refs at their regionals ... and dropped equally dramatically with those that don't!
Some of the marshalling I see at events outside the west mids always makes me think ... "Stuart W' would hang them for less!"

All that said, we are all only human and thus make mistakes ... I certainly can't say I have never effected a race result with a poor marshalling decission.

[baD]

When I have to marshal a car I try to think through the following order;

1) is it safe, especially near jumps
2) ..................

... I certainly can't say I have never effected a race result with a poor marshalling decission.

Copy, paste, publish, print and distribute that post to all members at your Club.

[AndyF]

Perhaps - To push the debate on we should take Passys Point on.

Should we run with out marshals? Cars have got to the point where they are just too fast for some, most, me! This speed in novice or less capable hands leads to crashes.

Maybe better driving would come from not having marshals at all. I know, not all accidents are the drivers fault, what if another driver throws in an ultra fast motor and uses you to slow down! But then perhaps we would need an umpire to impose sanctions.

OK. Marshals it is.

[lochness42]

Ok my opinion and experience here (sorry a bit longer post):
in first place marshall has to be sure that his action won't interfere other cars - thus checking if there are cars coming before he runs for a car, than again same check before he's going to put it back on the track. Oh and of course again same check when he's on the way back to marshalling position.

To order of marshalled cars - this one is personal
I marshall them in order they crashed if they are close to each other and I've seen order of crashed cars. If not I'm just marshalling cars based on distance from me.
It can be very frustrating if there is case of someone crashing into you and sending you both to track marking or you doing mistake first and guy behind you end does the same mistake and ends up in you so you both need to be marshalled and if the other guy gets marshalled first. That happened to me several times.

Anyway I strongly disapprove 2 things - shouting from rostrum on marshalls (it's 99% your mistake you shouldn't do and marshall is only human - I don't even shout if they don't notice me - but that's me). If someone heard me shouting from rostrum at The Players let me know :D I had to be marshalled there several times :D
Other thing is full throttle before car is put back on the ground - that can be really annoying and I punish that by not putting car back on the ground until he stop revving his car. Marshalls can get injured by that.

[wacattack]

DC, a bit like leaving your marshalling point before the race has finished and someone crashing where you should have been marshalling which resulted in them finishing 17th in the round at a national rather than 8th? :p

[telboy]

Personally, if you can get to the car quick enough(and safely enough) before any other cars come round then do it. But it sound like you were fairly close to 2nd DC. So the marshal should have waited for you to go past...and any other cars, before rescuing the 2nd place car. After all, he crashed in the first place not the other cars.

[Steve.T]

I had an incident during my final at Taplow last Sunday that made me want to ask this question and see what sort of debate would follow.
As a marshall what is expected of you.
The situation that happened to me.
I had made my way up to 3rd after starting 6th in the A final, second place crashed, I saw it out of the corner of my eye, I decided to go round the outside of the crashed car which would have put me in 2nd, as I went wide the marshall ran out to marshall the crashed car, whilst doing this managed to kick my car into the wall, as he was marshalling the crashed car a few more ran into the marshall, he put the 2nd place car on his wheels, then put the cars that had run into him on their wheels, then saw my car up against the wall. I was then marshalled, I lost some 6 seconds and 4 places, well race over, no chance after this.
So what takes priority when marshalling, the crashed car or the cars coming?
If the marshall would have left the crashed car I would have been in 2nd, if he would have marshalled without getting the way I may have been secong, for sure I would have remained in third.
Should the marshall be 100% sure he does not affect any other cars race, or marshall the car that had earned the better position as fast as possible.
Let the debat begin.
I have seen a wide and varied level of marshalls at many different races. I think this is an interesting topic.
I was a bit disappointed with what happened to me in my final, but after that's racing,or is it???
Going back to the original message I just wonder how you have felt if you were the car in say eighth place who gained five places due the marshals mistake.
Would you have waited? Would you have given up your position at the end of the race to the poor bloke who got their car kicked?
Of course not and neither would or should anyone else. The fact of the matter is what goes around comes around or if you prefer "shit happens".
Anything can happen in a race is that not part of the fun?

[Ritchie T]

What gets my goat is:

1. Marshalls who think they are too good to be turning over cars in 'lesser' races and leisurely saunter over.

Great debate though!:thumbsup:

My first race was a month or so back and i expected to be in a bad heat which is fair enough i have no F rating or whatever you call it :p

My laps were nice consistant 26's and a few 25's, rolled it on the last lap of my final qualifyer (heat1) 40 second lap! Took some nob from the top heat 15 seconds to walk about 6 feet to my car. There were no cars around me btw. Had the look of 'its heat 1 no one in it cares' look on his face, cool guy!

[mdb_75]

I always try to marshall when it's safe - once other cars have all passed, but it's difficult on small tracks.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BsG_RLZQKY)

[dodgydiy]

i will always marshall any car as quick as i can, waiting for any passing car or other car i may obstruct to pass first. you can not get in the way of other drivers, the crashed car has in effect penalised himself anyway by making the mistake. if the crashed car decides to spin his wheels i will stand back from that car until he stops it, no matter how much he shouts, have seen marshalls with burn marks on their hands, crap in their eye etc from this. have also experienced over exuberant marshals, one trod on my cat xls, breaking the chassis, top plate, receiver and speed controller and destroying the body while marshalling another car, i wasnt amused, he was very amused.

[David Church]

Wayne, yes I messed up and wasn't there to marshal, I did feel bad and apologise straight away!!! But you shouldn't have crashed haha. Now I am not saying this makes it right for me to not be there!!! I was wrong, I messed up and I am sorry.

Another gripe I have is, when people are standing by the track watching, a car crashes close to them, so they flip it back on the track, this is wrong, now I know we all wana help, and I am no exception, but this should not be done, or the person should stand there for the whole meeting to make it even for all drivers!!!

I personally think the best way is to make a video, explaining the duties of a marshal, and also show clips of how to do it right and wrong, I may even be in it, and according to Wayne, it would be how not to marhal:p

There is no single answer, just alot of good opinions, for these opinions I thank you!!!

[Chequered Flag Racing]

So what takes priority when marshalling, the crashed car or the cars coming?


Marshall's own safety :thumbsup:

Assess what's coming and only then make a move onto the track

If I was marshalling then your car would have been sorted before the others as I had caused you to crash before the others.

[wacattack]

Wayne, yes I messed up and wasn't there to marshal, I did feel bad and apologise straight away!!! But you shouldn't have crashed haha. Now I am not saying this makes it right for me to not be there!!! I was wrong, I messed up and I am sorry.

Another gripe I have is, when people are standing by the track watching, a car crashes close to them, so they flip it back on the track, this is wrong, now I know we all wana help, and I am no exception, but this should not be done, or the person should stand there for the whole meeting to make it even for all drivers!!!

I personally think the best way is to make a video, explaining the duties of a marshal, and also show clips of how to do it right and wrong, I may even be in it, and according to Wayne, it would be how not to marhal:p

There is no single answer, just alot of good opinions, for these opinions I thank you!!!

Haha I'm only winding you up DC. At the end of the day I shouldn't have crashed, pure and simple :thumbsup:

[David Church]

Haha I'm only winding you up DC. At the end of the day I shouldn't have crashed, pure and simple :thumbsup:

You hurt my feeling!!!! I only have the 1 and it's now hurt:cry::D

[niggs98]

have always been of the opinion of getting to the car as quickly as possible without ruining anyone elses run or as we were taught when juniors marshall as you wish to be marshalled. having said this in belgium a couple of weeks ago my heroics to help a fellow racer cost me a fractured foot when jumping over a car to avoid it. this could of potentially ruined the final for 10 people so i shall be slightly more carefull next time. it is the person whos crashed fault not the marshal who cant get there and killing yaself to do it really isnt worth it no matter how much the racer will holler at you off the rostrum. as racers sometimes we need to be more patient which when you are leading your final on the first lap and end up 10th because of 1 crash is rather hard to do but that is just a part of racing. having said all this the idea is as said previously to marshal as you wish to be marshalled just be carfull when doing it ;)