View Full Version : LiPo Batteries / £540 for damages
Chequered Flag Racing
17-04-2011, 08:08 AM
thread on racechat re the BRCA F1, GT10 summer series and batteries for the series
Lets talk cells....
Ok, so getting ready for the first meeting i have realised that my supper special £20 ebay Lipos are not on the list in the EB section.
Do i really have to go out and buy new cells just to take part in this event? I am competing in the GP2 class which is billed as being budget, but i can tell you if i have to get new cells for the event this will no longer be a budget event for me
my current packs are these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Turnigy-5000mA...item5643984362 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Turnigy-5000mAh-2S-30C-HARDCASE-RACING-Lipo-Battery-UK-/370501239650?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item5643984362)
Can i race them? As far as i can see they offer no advantage, infact they push me 111grams OVERWEIGHT
The following is currently posted on racechat by the 12th section Qualifying Officer, Gareth Bevens in the same thread
Hi All,
Having seen the nature of this thread, I thought it would be a good location to share a little bit of info about a recent insurance claim...
A young racer recently bought some LiPo batteries from an online retailer selling through E-Bay, the battery arrived without incident and was taken, still sealed in its packet to said racers local club. The LiPo was opened at the club and immediately burst into flames (as I understand it, it was due to sub-standard wiring shorting the cell out), the racer made for the nearest door with the now alight battery, which consequently got dropped on the entrance hall carpet (which was only a couple of weeks old and had the school logo in it (the club uses the school to race at btw)).
Needless to say, a hole was burnt in the carpet, and the school presented an invoice to the club for the replacement of the carpet, the club in turn claimed on the BRCA insurance. When the insurance company investigated the claim and asked the question ‘Who is the importer of the batteries?’.
These cells had been bought from a supplier in China (I believe this was done in innocence) and had no CE marking or tractability, so the racer is now classed as the importer and found himself presented with a bill for £540 for damages to the School carpet from the insurance company....
I’m not trying to scare anyone off buying cells from E-Bay, all I am saying is be careful. The link above looks ok to me (with my limited knowledge) but it’s always worth checking what you’re buying and making sure the distributer has suitable credentials & insurance. Please note:- by stating it looks ok to me, I'm not accepting any responsibility for these cells
I’m going to let Jim know I’ve posted this and am happy for it to be updated if any of the info is inaccurate, but this is certainly my understanding of the discussions I’ve been privy to.
Gazza
17-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Its hard to say if this is true or not But it came all the way from China in a sealed container and only burst into flames at the track :o. . . . how conveiant ?
I like most people have seen loads of videos on you tube where there blown up on purpose and it takes some doing the only way they burst into flames is the GAS and it has to be punchared first you may well have seen a puffed Cell in a hard case . . . that tells you you did some thing wrong some where
BUT NO the BRCA want it in a LiPo sack / bag where you cant see it puffing up. . . really stupid idea IMHO
The "and had no CE marking or tractability, so the racer is now classed as the importer and found himself presented with a bill for £540 for damages to the School carpet from the insurance company...."
I thought they said it caught on fire of cause it wont have an CE mark its burnt off :confused:
I fly model planes like a few others. We charge at 1C and use the soft cell ones and to see planes crash from 500ft and then you go and get the bits the lipo DOES not burst into flames bent / warped may be but never on fire . . . YET
So is the post Genuine . . . you tell me :eh?:
superdez
17-04-2011, 02:06 PM
If cells were imported from China, and there was no distributor within the U.K/E.U. then technically the person who imports the cells become the first distributor within the E.U.
The general product safety regulations covers this area of safety law, however it would seem that the the regulations covers a product that has been placed on the market within the E.U. As the cells were not placed on the market then I believe that the insurance company should not have treated the purchaser as an importer and attached liability to the purchaser.
Gazza
17-04-2011, 04:40 PM
surley to be a distributor you must buy / import and then sell on yes. . . .
The cynical inside me tells me that there is more going on than reported. Cells won't just 'burst into flames' on opening the packet, as the packet would of been swollen at least upon receipt.
As for the insurance, looking at a way of scape goating a payout?
Sounds like a pile of balls to me.
If somethings on fire the last thing your gonna do is pick it up!
You would end up with the skin melted off your hand possable losing all the feeling in your hand altogether!
Id make a counter claim saying that the club was was negligent in not enforcing/ fully notifing the "rules".
Id tell them to prove there claim in a court of law....should test the waters abit....talking of waters....does sound a little bit fishy this random exploding bit.
No doubt there all made in the same factory like your m&s V's asda ready meals!
SlowOne
17-04-2011, 06:58 PM
I'm afraid this is poor example of pulling something from somewhere else, out of context, and it then getting out of hand. For the record...
It is true. The point is not that this can happen but that if you import something from someone who is not the official importer, distributor or retailer inside the EU, then you are liable. Insurance companies will take the liability to the official importers, distributors, etc. in order to pay the claim. If you bought the product outside the official importer, distributor, etc., then you are the importer, and you will be asked by the insurance company to settle the claim. It is then up to you to sue whoever you want to sue in order to get your money back. If you can afford the time and money...
This is not about the quality of the product, how the accident happened, or the rights and wrongs of what the Club did or did not do. It is a piece of information about what can now happen if you import something outside an official EU distribution network.
This is not a matter for debate. It will make no difference whatsoever what your opinion, or the opinion of your mate down the pub is, this is English Law. If you want to change the interpretation of the Law through a Judge's Precedent, then go right ahead.
In this case, the Club claimed against the BRCA Insurance, the Insurer asked who the importer was in order to claim against them, and when it was revealed that the person had bought them from the Far East, and not an EU official importer, distributor, etc. the insurance company put the claim on the individual as the importer.
Go ahead; whinge, bitch, come up with all the usual alternatives, quote anyone, but this is a fact, it is true, and it is being put out as a guide to all RC drivers of the possible risks. When you import outside the official network of a product's distributors, this is a potential risk. It is up to you whether you take that risk or not.
It would have been better if the person who started this thread had spent some time researching the source, and stating exactly the context in which it was posted. I hope this makes that context clear, and that with this information you will make your own decisions about where you buy things. HTH :)
What would happen if you bought LRP lipo's from HK? Theyre on the list and I can't see where it say they have to be bought in the UK. Would I be classed as the importer even tho LRP say I'm not?
I can see the point of safe lipos but it does seem like scare tactics.
No offence Slowone but until you can show me which law makes me the lawful importer and person held legally responsable in a case like this then Im open minded on the subject.
Seems odd that its always Non EU lipo's that seem to explode into flames and not the more expensive and "better" EU sourced ones.
Hopefully Im wrong but this smells of disinformation.
SlowOne
17-04-2011, 07:37 PM
It is not up to me to prove anything. This is a real case, and it really happened, and the person who thought they could claim through BRCA insurance is now paying the claim themselves. There will be an official write up on the BRCA site of this soon, but we were asked to help get the information out there. The point remains that it isn't the product we are talking about here, it is the status of the person deemed liable as the importer. If you want to ignore it as "disinformation" then go right ahead, no skin off my nose - you seem to know best.
Update - I did some digging. Under REACH regulations (use of chemicals) the person or legal entity doing the importing is liable for the legal ramifications - we are hardly that but it is a precedent. Under HMRC Rules, the person or entity paying for the products in another country is responsible for ensuring that the goods are legal to import, and that person or entity is responsible for paying all taxes and duties - if you buy your LRP bit from Hong Kong, you don't ask LRP to pay the taxes and duties, do you?!!. In HMRC's eyes, if you buy from outside the EU, you are the importer, and you are liable for the charges and complying with the Law on what can or cannot be imported. I can easily see that if this is how the Revenue see it, then it is how others can see it. Again, I am not as certain this is right as Liam is that it is wrong, but if you are looking for precedent...
Just for clarity, I understand that the reason for the failure was not product related, it was related to the way it was packed and how it was removed from the packet. I don't know this for sure, so we will have to wait for the BRCA note to know that for sure. Again, I say, the issue being brought to our attention is not the safety of the product, it is the status of the person deemed the importer.
If you buy LRP from Hong Kong, and the insurer asks LRP to pay, they will show from records that they did not supply the item through their official EU distributor network. What happens next is not covered by this example. However, since most EU distributors will not honour warranty on RC gear (KO, Sanwa, etc.) or most anything else if you buy from Hong Kong, that situation doesn't start well!
I will ask the BRCA if they can clarify that situation in their note.
mattybucks
17-04-2011, 07:50 PM
Well i'm not to sure about this one. I'd have to see that letter of claim, and allegations, and a copy of the file to be able to give a correct answer.
The school insurer would contact the club/hirer in the first instance. There must be a hire agreement, and the damage will be covered by the terms of that.
The circumstances of cells going up seem a little strange, brand new cells being opened up, bursting into flames? I would have to question this. Do the cells come charged? We're they in the process of being charged and has the user charged them as per the manufacturers instructions? Has the person been negligent in any way regarding the handling of the cells? If he has then that would be the cell company out of the claim anyway.
Does the club operate as per the BRCA rules re charging in a lipo sack? If so was this clearly displayed? Has the club been negligent by not enforcing the charging of lipos in sacks?
If someone was not using a set of BRCA legal cells the i'm pretty sure the BRCA could say to a member not our problem.
There are so many questions that need to be answered before anyone could possibly come to a liability decision.
Well mate its just my Da was a cop for 30 years and he taught me that when anyone says ..."its the law"...even cops...ask them to prove it.:)
The main point for me is that someone could have been hurt really bad...I dont care about the money..id get them to take me to court then agree to pay the amount back monthly fo "X" amount of time.
Whoever is running a club, is quite likely responsable to ensure the right H&S equipment is on site because if its not them the brown stuff can really hit the fan.
Checking 1st aid boxes should be a weekly job
The BRCA is probably duty bound to ensure 1st aiders/equipment and fire fighting tools are available at an incident.
I dont know much about this from a BRCA perspective and I hope procedures are in place from them that covers this?
I'm afraid this is poor example of pulling something from somewhere else, out of context, and it then getting out of hand. For the record...
..............about what can now happen if you import something outside an official EU distribution network.
This is not a matter for debate. It will make no difference whatsoever what your opinion, or the opinion of your mate down the pub is, this is English Law. If you want to change the interpretation of the Law through a Judge's Precedent, then go right ahead.
In this case, the Club claimed against the BRCA Insurance, the Insurer asked who the importer was in order to claim against them, and when it was revealed that the person had bought them from the Far East, and not an EU official importer, distributor, etc. the insurance company put the claim on the individual as the importer.
Go ahead; ...........
If I read this correctly then this is a huge issue re an individuals BRCA licence.
As the claim seems to have gone through the Clubs insurance, I could assume the individual concerned, was a guest without a licence/insurance. Either way, he either has his own liability insurance or he benefits as a guest. So....... in reality, a licence holders' belief that he is insured against damage he causes through his own negligence is totally false in this case.
Say I buy LiPo's and cannot remember or evidence the source (quite likely in my case), they could be third hand. Knowing insurance co standard approach (19.5 years exp in EL/PL contracts) I now know it is extremely probable that they would take the same view as above and hold me liable as there is no one else from whom to recoup their outlay.
Does anyone else believe all BRCA members should be made aware of this immediately and moves should started to press for an alternative underwriter?
SlowOne
17-04-2011, 08:03 PM
Laim, see my update above - it's as close as I can get to a legal precedent to answer your question. It is a good point to substantiate what happened - in the eyes of the Revenue, you are liable for all taxes and duties, so you are the importer.
I'm with your Dad. My godfather was the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate of London, and he would say the same thing! He was also a pretty handy amateur boxer so it didn't pay to argue with my Uncle Dai!
My understanding is that the person with the LiPo pack managed to short out the exposed connectors as the LiPo was being taken out of the packet, and once shorted they welded together and the LiPo went up. As the first post says, the LiPo was being rushed to an exit, but was dropped on the mat with the school logo on.
The school claimed on the Club, the Club claimed on their BRCA insurance, the BRCA insurer claimed on the importer, who turned out to be...
The rest of your post above doesn't quite conform to your Dad's, or my Uncle Dai's good advice does it? "Quite likely..." "should be..." "probably..." "I don't know much...". Would it be too much to ask for you to retract that post until you have some form of evidence as to what is required or at least, as in my case, some form of research that might lead us to think there was something concrete there? Just a thought... ;)
mattybucks
17-04-2011, 08:05 PM
One question - whats the BRCA rules re the use of TX lipo's?
SlowOne
17-04-2011, 08:09 PM
Does anyone else believe all BRCA members should be made aware of this immediately and moves should started to press for an alternative underwriter?Er.... which bit of this post making people aware is not doing that?
BRCA insurance is not about you being insulated from your negligence, it is about you be insured against accidents. This whole area is a minefield, and anyone who thinks it can be simplistically summed up like this is not living in 2011.
If you have a query about BRCA insurance, and want your question answered, please e-mail
[email protected] with the post above. Only Jim Spencer can answer that for you. No one else can. If you could post his response, I am sure that we'd all like to know the answer.
That's all the fielding of questions I can do tonight, I'll leave you all to speculate that the world will end at midnight because someone bought a LiPo pack from the Far East!! Sleep well... ;)
Gazza
17-04-2011, 08:19 PM
CE marking :o
Just checked all my so called BRCA approved cells 1s & 2s and I cant find any CE mark on any of them ?
Smc 4900
Team Powers 6000
Ip intelect 5000
What should we be looking for . . . although one does say
Made in china
Quote...."The rest of your post above doesn't quite conform to your Dad's, or my Uncle Dai's good advice does it? "Quite likely..." "should be..." "probably..." "I don't know much..."....
Mate just didnt want to make any firm statements without having any evidence :D and dont want to use cloak and dagger wording.
Peoples safety above cash for me always because £540 is pennys...people shouldnt be picking up anything thats on fire and someone trained needs to be there.
PS Im not a person/legal enitity im a human being :thumbsup:
Er.... which bit of this post making people aware is not doing that?
BRCA insurance is not about you being insulated from your negligence, it is about you be insured against accidents. This whole area is a minefield, and anyone who thinks it can be simplistically summed up like this is not living in 2011.
If you have a query about BRCA insurance, and want your question answered, please e-mail
[email protected] with the post above. Only Jim Spencer can answer that for you. No one else can. If you could post his response, I am sure that we'd all like to know the answer.
That's all the fielding of questions I can do tonight, I'll leave you all to speculate that the world will end at midnight because someone bought a LiPo pack from the Far East!! Sleep well... ;)
Not totally sure what is meant by your first line in the quote above - but if it is meant to read that WE, members ARE being made aware, I beg to differ. Had I not stumbled on this thread I for one would be blissfully unaware, as no doubt are hundreds of other as I type.
Perhaps this incident is so recent that no action has yet been taken - hopefully it will.
Re your second paragraph - I believe you are way off there.
Public Liability insurance is just that - they take your premium and in return take the financial loss from you should a fortuitous incident causing financial loss occur through your actions or inaction. The action or inaction itself is the negligence, so in a way we all pay our premium to be financially insulated from our negligence.
Chrislong
17-04-2011, 08:30 PM
Say im using Trakpower sourced from UK (which I am still), what would happen if these burst into flames considering the importer may no longer be available - closed? (have they closed as Flightpower? I don't know).
Also, say somebody buys LRP cells from UK store, but also buys additional LRP cells from far east. Can't identify which pack is which, but one goes up in flames and causes damaged... would this be importer? What if owner claimed "Oh I bought these from XYZ modelshop in UK" without mentioning the other pack he bought from far east? Im assuming nobody would question it, no way of telling.
People should take note of this thread, true or not, just keep it in mind! Its good this is being shared with us. Thanks.
jasonb
17-04-2011, 08:57 PM
BUT NO the BRCA want it in a LiPo sack / bag where you cant see it puffing up. . . really stupid idea IMHO
Have you ever been sat in the pits when the guy opposite has a lipo go bang due to a charger failure?
I have at the worlds in Germany and its not funnyif that cell had been in a sack the nobody would have got a face full of the noxious shite that spews forth and said racer probably wouldnt have lost.most of the gear on his pit table. No one watches their cells like a hawk when they are charging the racer in question was off truing tryes at the time (lucky for him).
Lipo sacks are a MUST in my opinion.
Jason
This thread has opened up a massive can of wriggly worms re: BRCA insurance and what it does for you.
Chequered Flag Racing
17-04-2011, 09:31 PM
Had I not stumbled on this thread I for one would be blissfully unaware, as no doubt are hundreds of other as I type.
that's why I started the thread :thumbsup:
I wasn't until I read it racechat
Chequered Flag Racing
17-04-2011, 09:36 PM
Have you ever been sat in the pits when the guy opposite has a lipo go bang due to a charger failure?
Lipo sacks are a MUST in my opinion.
Been close to NiMh's when they went bang, indoors at Chesterfield and a local off-road regional and folk weren't advised to charge them in ammo boxes:o . Chesterfield indoor pits and people sat on top of each other and outdoors the tent got burnt.
peetbee
17-04-2011, 10:45 PM
Does the club operate as per the BRCA rules re charging in a lipo sack? If so was this clearly displayed? Has the club been negligent by not enforcing the charging of lipos in sacks?
If someone was not using a set of BRCA legal cells the i'm pretty sure the BRCA could say to a member not our problem.
There are so many questions that need to be answered before anyone could possibly come to a liability decision.
There isnt a brca rule for club nights stating that cells have to be 'legal' nor that they have to be charged in a lipo sack.
mattybucks
17-04-2011, 10:53 PM
There isnt a brca rule for club nights stating that cells have to be 'legal' nor that they have to be charged in a lipo sack.
If your looking to rely on your BRCA membership insurance, then I think you need to run BRCA legal cells.
I believe to conform to the insurance, you have to ensure you follow the General Rules, this gives the maximum power source you can use. But you must use the equipment in accordance with Manufacturers instructions.
peetbee
18-04-2011, 08:55 AM
If your looking to rely on your BRCA membership insurance, then I think you need to run BRCA legal cells.
As DCM states it's the General Rules that govern club meetings outside of a BRCA sanctioned event (ie: regionals and nationals) and the general rules don't state what you are implying.
For example, how does that work for Micros who don't use the Electric Board homologation - even soft case are legal as long as they comply with the voltage limits.
Ive emailed the brca to ask for a copy of the policy wording because I have no idea what it covers me for!
mattybucks
18-04-2011, 09:20 AM
As DCM states it's the General Rules that govern club meetings outside of a BRCA sanctioned event (ie: regionals and nationals) and the general rules don't state what you are implying.
For example, how does that work for Micros who don't use the Electric Board homologation - even soft case are legal as long as they comply with the voltage limits.
I'm talking from an insurance point of view, and I only said "think". A claims handler will look at all the information available ie list of legal cells, policy wording, and make a decision based on that.
If there's no list (like you say for micro's) then it's not an issue. But for in this example there is.
If a club allows you to use non-brca legal cells then it's at there own discresion, however depending of the policy wording it may invalidate there insurance cover.
mattybucks
18-04-2011, 09:22 AM
Ive emailed the brca to ask for a copy of the policy wording because I have no idea what it covers me for!
Can you forward me a copy please Liam, I wouldn't mind a read to see what it says.
If a club allows you to use non-brca legal cells then it's at there own discresion, however depending of the policy wording it may invalidate there insurance cover.
************
There are only 2 sources of information worth reading - The Insurance Policy & The BRCA Handbook
************
Many statements in this thread are simply wrong (and I do not specifically mean the quote from Matty above) particularly if taken out of context and/or it is unclear what type of event it refers to.
The 2011 Handbook says, By Jim Spencer:-
1)
Race Equipment (batteries, motors etc)
There is only ONE BRCA rule regarding equipment that is applicable to the insurance cover.
General Rule 13, Vehicle Scope –
The BRCA will not recognise a model vehicle as being suitable for radio control that is more
than any of these measurements; 1 meter long, 20kg in weight or a maximum of 30cc engine capacity.
That’s It.
All too often I get emails / phone calls – sometimes from quite experienced people - asking (for example) “will the use of XYZ non homologated batteries invalidate the insurance”?
Nope.
2)
Homologation lists are for Nationals and Sanctioned Events use.
A club can choose to run to them if it so wishes, but that’s up to them, but either way round they have no effect on the insurance cover what-so-ever at any level of event, including the nationals too – failing scruitineering wouldn’t invalidate your cover for example.
Anybody tells you different point them at this document or ask them to check.
************
So ........ have the BRCA Officials got it wrong?
Or
Is the Underwriter banking on the Insured (the member) just caving in and giving up?
Remember, every Insurer (Home, Motor, Commercial or whatever) can just turn round at any time and say "We're not paying" and it is up to the Insured/Customer to kick up a stink.
IMHO - classing the member as also the importer means that he is being held liable as the importer, which he was, when he was, to the best of his knowledge, only acting as a BRCA Member. Therefore he should be able to invoke his BRCA Insurance to protect himself from his inadvertent negligence when unknowingly acting as an importer when importing the cells.
Bit of a catch 22 or never ending circular argument.
I hope the BRCA take up the case on behalf of the individual, not just to sort out the money in this case, but to establish the precedent re individually imported, or unknown sourced cells, or find a new insurer, or both.
slow coach
18-04-2011, 10:30 AM
************
IMHO - classing the member as also the importer means that he is being held liable as the importer, which he was, when he was, to the best of his knowledge, only acting as a BRCA Member. .
when you are buying online or in a shop for that matter its not as a BRCA member its as a consumer, did you ask the brca before the purchase i guess not, when you use the cells you use them as a BRCA member there is a difference.
when you are or are not insured I couldnt tell you.
when you become a importer rather than a consumer again dont ask me.
look at it this way if you buy cells for you and a friend from XYZ location and your mate pays you then how do you deny being the importer!! gets trickey.
I think its fair to say that the people who look after the BRCA do so with the best interests of "US" the racers and its normally us the racers who decide all these things anyway by way of AGM/EGM, so when you say look to the BRCA to change this or change that essentially you are talking to yourself as a voting member, hows that for a kick up your own **** :lol:
quote..."Is the Underwriter banking on the Insured (the member) just caving in and giving up?..."
Well they are there to make money not hand it out so its possable.
If the person this lipo incident happened to is reading this thread then please feel free to message me if you need friendly advice
peetbee
18-04-2011, 10:50 AM
Agreed that no speculation on here will answer this, it is the policy terms and conditions that will be applicable and is something that every club and individual* should have access to.
(*not every member of the BRCA is a racer, but they are all covered by the BRCA insurance)
..........., so when you say look to the BRCA to change this or change that essentially you are talking to yourself as a voting member, hows that for a kick up your own **** :lol:
OK - so I missed one word out - add OFFICIALS after BRCA to make the phrase read as "I hope the BRCA OFFICIALS take up the case ......"
After all the insurer will not listen to ordinary racers as we are not the ones who negotiated the terms. Is that better now that I have spelt it out for you? :p :woot:
Everything you do, from being born to setting fire to a £20M sports centre, killing 200 people in the process, is relevant if it is connected in any way to the proximate cause of the incident as long as the incident occurs at an R/C event, any R/C event. And all of this, negligent action or inaction, should be within the scope of a Public Liability Policy.
So, we are acting as BRCA Members when we buy cells.
ollie
18-04-2011, 11:15 AM
There are no posh carpets to burn if you race nitro.:thumbsup::thumbsup::p:p
truggy lover
18-04-2011, 11:24 AM
true or not now the lid is off the can the worms are out
charge in a sack , use a charger designed for lipo and be safe
all that matters really
neil
There are no posh carpets to burn if you race nitro.:thumbsup::thumbsup::p:p
but will you still be laughin if you maim a kid and your BRCA Insurance says on yer bike mate, some of your r/c gear is imported, you've invalidated your cover?
On a positive note ........
If the situation is such that the BRCA Insurance consider the individual has acted as an individual, and not as an R/C racer when buying the cells, then the individual should approach his household insurer re the Family Liabilities section of the policy and claim.
Make the 2 insurers fight it out between them.
Most likely outcome, they both say No, and then it ends up with http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk
mark christopher
18-04-2011, 11:47 AM
I'm afraid this is poor example of pulling something from somewhere else, out of context, and it then getting out of hand. For the record...
It is true. The point is not that this can happen but that if you import something from someone who is not the official importer, distributor or retailer inside the EU, then you are liable. Insurance companies will take the liability to the official importers, distributors, etc. in order to pay the claim. If you bought the product outside the official importer, distributor, etc., then you are the importer, and you will be asked by the insurance company to settle the claim. It is then up to you to sue whoever you want to sue in order to get your money back. If you can afford the time and money...
This is not about the quality of the product, how the accident happened, or the rights and wrongs of what the Club did or did not do. It is a piece of information about what can now happen if you import something outside an official EU distribution network.
This is not a matter for debate. It will make no difference whatsoever what your opinion, or the opinion of your mate down the pub is, this is English Law. If you want to change the interpretation of the Law through a Judge's Precedent, then go right ahead.
In this case, the Club claimed against the BRCA Insurance, the Insurer asked who the importer was in order to claim against them, and when it was revealed that the person had bought them from the Far East, and not an EU official importer, distributor, etc. the insurance company put the claim on the individual as the importer.
Go ahead; whinge, bitch, come up with all the usual alternatives, quote anyone, but this is a fact, it is true, and it is being put out as a guide to all RC drivers of the possible risks. When you import outside the official network of a product's distributors, this is a potential risk. It is up to you whether you take that risk or not.
It would have been better if the person who started this thread had spent some time researching the source, and stating exactly the context in which it was posted. I hope this makes that context clear, and that with this information you will make your own decisions about where you buy things. HTH :)
So if u buy a Ford from the usages that not made in Europe or sold in Europe. Even tho Ford will warrAnty cover it, I can inside of I'm liable for any accident?
mark christopher
18-04-2011, 11:50 AM
Have you ever been sat in the pits when the guy opposite has a lipo go bang due to a charger failure?
I have at the worlds in Germany and its not funnyif that cell had been in a sack the nobody would have got a face full of the noxious shite that spews forth and said racer probably wouldnt have lost.most of the gear on his pit table. No one watches their cells like a hawk when they are charging the racer in question was off truing tryes at the time (lucky for him).
Lipo sacks are a MUST in my opinion.
Jason
Lipo bags are only needed if racers don't take their charger off nimh mode before charging lipo, the said racer would not have lost his gear...........
It's common sence that's needed.
Steven Forster
18-04-2011, 11:53 AM
true or not now the lid is off the can the worms are out
charge in a sack , use a charger designed for lipo and be safe
all that matters really
neil
Sorry but doesnt always work using a LiPo sack, heres a pic to show from another forum............
Here a pic of my dads Lipo after it went up in flames a couple of weeks ago, he over discharged the pack down to 11.2v (14.8v pack) so not a huge amount over the minimum 12v. He put it on to charge but his charger didn’t recognize it said voltage to low but he managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.
Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps, left it to make a phone call and could smell something burning came back to the pack to find it smoking so he chucked it outside on the drive. Then 1 minute later there was a huge whoosh sound and 5 foot flames on the drive which burned like this for about 3 minutes!! This was in a core-rc charge pouch also which as you can see did not contain the fire!! Be careful folks and never charge unattended or overdischarge.
This was a Hyperion battery which are regarded as one of the best on the market so not a cheap HK pack.
Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l329/d3xt3r24/lipofireincorercliposack.jpg
hope ive done this pic properly........
mark christopher
18-04-2011, 11:54 AM
I'd like to know what the policy says.
I know your not covered if your not covered while marshaling unless your on your marshal point
mark christopher
18-04-2011, 12:00 PM
Sorry but doesnt always work using a LiPo sack, heres a pic to show from another forum............
Here a pic of my dads Lipo after it went up in flames a couple of weeks ago, he over discharged the pack down to 11.2v (14.8v pack) so not a huge amount over the minimum 12v. He put it on to charge but his charger didn’t recognize it said voltage to low but he managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.
Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps, left it to make a phone call and could smell something burning came back to the pack to find it smoking so he chucked it outside on the drive. Then 1 minute later there was a huge whoosh sound and 5 foot flames on the drive which burned like this for about 3 minutes!! This was in a core-rc charge pouch also which as you can see did not contain the fire!! Be careful folks and never charge unattended or overdischarge.
This was a Hyperion battery which are regarded as one of the best on the market so not a cheap HK pack.
Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l329/d3xt3r24/lipofireincorercliposack.jpg
hope ive done this pic properly........
1amp for 5 hours.......... only way to trick a charger when low voltage it switch to nimh if that's the case. Only fault is your dad.......
mark christopher
18-04-2011, 12:02 PM
As a side note for lipo sack. Where is the wording or regulations defining what a lipo sack is? Because brca wording is very loose.
Re brca lipo clubs only have to comply to the brca general rules and do not have to adopt the eh list, as with any non brca sanctioned meeting such as oople invatational
mattybucks
18-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Know-one can make a informed decison regarding liability.
We do not know the circumstances regarding the LIPO's going up, if it was mis-treated, incorrectly charged, or just being taken out of the packet, or the real circumstances regarding the accident.
We've not seen a copy of the hall hire agreement.
We do not know why the insurer has refused deal with the claim.
Let the claimant issue proceedings against the defendant, bring in the BRCA, and the Club as Part 20 defendants at let them fight it out.
I really hope Lipo's are not as unstable as this post suggests as I have a pack in my desk as I type this thread, and no there not in a Lipo sack.
Jim Spencer
18-04-2011, 12:41 PM
Hi All
Ok first off, everybody is sorted in this incident - which is true - and everybody is happy with the outcome, it has been resolved.
Next bit - Please read the rules you're operating to, which are the general rules in the front of the handbook, everytime you use your car you are working to them, doesn't matter what sort of event you are at.
So use a LiPo sack.
Next bit
Yes we give an indemnity to hirers (clubs or individuals) for damage to premises caused by our activities.
And this has NEVER been a problem, and indeed wasn't in this case.
The problem here is only this:-
Imprting things from outside of the EU (though if it was manufactured in the EU and exported out and you're importing it back that's different) is a problem.
There is no process wherby somebody else will step into the frame and check that what you've imported is Ok for use here.
Unlike Cars (as somebody mentioned it above) if you import a car then the nice people at VOSA check it for you, if they're happy you get it signed off, and then you can use it, and insure it, here.
Importers and Manufacturers are required to have product liability insurance (one of the many reasons things are more expensive in the EU than outside of it) so when a product is deemed to be faulty Insurance Companies (who provide personal, household or as in our case Public Liability cover) are well used to going back to them and discussing the cost they've just had.
The problem occurs if you've personally imported the product.
There's nobody to take the rap if it's faulty and the fault causes an Insurance claim, so it lands on your lap.
It doesn't matter what the product is, could theoretically be anything, certainly a major headache in other areas - Pushbikes is one i've heard of (frame snapped caused a car crash, big claim apparently).
So for now just make sure you know where your buying stuff from, has the item been checked by anybody (i.e is it on one of our lists?, is it an EU manufacturer?) and if you're not happy go elsewhere, there's plenty of choice.
Even in the case above the item in question is available for retail sale from a EU retailer and for a euro more could have come with piece of mind..
truggy lover
18-04-2011, 03:50 PM
what is the correct process for getting a lipo battery passed onto the EB list ?
£540 is a sizable chunk of money, but is within the reach of most people, though what happens if a Lipo fire hadn't just damaged the carpet and the building burnt down. Would the individual have to pay the £100k's to have it rebuilt.
Maybe for clarity a list of what is/isn't included by the insurance would be helpful. As what happens if a part you've made breaks on a car and it careers off the track and hits someone. Since it was a homemade part would you be liable? The list of scenarios is endless.....so please can we have some guidance.
Gazza
18-04-2011, 05:31 PM
CE marking :o
Just checked all my so called BRCA approved cells 1s & 2s and I cant find any CE mark on any of them ?
Smc 4900
Team Powers 6000
Ip intelect 5000<<<<<< made in China
What should we be looking for . . . although one does say
Made in china
Any one ?
Deffinition of a LiPo Sack is . . .
As the so called LiPo sack also went up in flames as far as im concerned this method is Busted
In this case We now need a NON Flamable material prefably Clear / see through so you can see the Pack puffing up and dissconect it and then take out side before it gose woof . . . . just an idea
Just a thought how many people put there Laptop / net book in a lipo sack while at a meeting yes its got a LiPo / Lion battery in it
BUT the charger Cannot be tampered with so it must be people doing some thing wrong like mentioned above in NIMH Mode
down to human error
rbridd
18-04-2011, 05:59 PM
managed to get it charging on a low 1 amp charge.
Left it charging for 5 hours then decided to up the charge amps to 3 amps,
Thought it was worth sharing as I have to admit I had become complacent when charging.....
.....
So after already ramming 5000mah into a known possible risky battery, decided to increase the amperage of the charge, and then leave it unobserved...
Words fail me.
Jim Spencer
18-04-2011, 06:50 PM
£540 is a sizable chunk of money, but is within the reach of most people, though what happens if a Lipo fire hadn't just damaged the carpet and the building burnt down. Would the individual have to pay the £100k's to have it rebuilt.
Maybe for clarity a list of what is/isn't included by the insurance would be helpful. As what happens if a part you've made breaks on a car and it careers off the track and hits someone. Since it was a homemade part would you be liable? The list of scenarios is endless.....so please can we have some guidance.
If you decide to IMPORT a product you decide to import a product..
If a car leaves a track then the fault is - the fence isn't good enough, cars break, this is model car racing and it's expected in racing for things to break occasionally.
The insurance will quite happily cover a totally scratchbuilt car, as that was all there used to be.
It's dead straightforward - read the General Rules, conform to them and you're covered, and none of the posts on here in any way what-so-ever invalidate the PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE, that's not in question what-so-ever, it will still hold even with el-cheapo chinease cells in the car, you could manufacture them yourself if you wanted to and it would still work.
You could put the proverbial flux capacitor, a steam engine, gas turbine, solid fuel rocket if you like, make them all yourself and it will still work.
BUT
What we can't put in rules is what you should understand as basic common sense, in that it's not the associations role to educate people on basic consumer principles!
But lets have a go shall we.. We all understand that when you buy something from a shop on the high street you have 'rights' yes?
If you want to circumnavigate all the regulations your local high street retailer has to comply with and personally import something then there are consequences, and this is one of them in that you have no PRODUCT LIABILITY cover.
You leave yourself wide open on that one, and on most things it would be highly unlikely to be a problem, but this is one where it is..
LiPo batteries are VERY high profile (see the signs in airports worldwide) so people outside the sport will examine the nitty gritty when things go pear shaped with them.
Jim Spencer
18-04-2011, 06:53 PM
what is the correct process for getting a lipo battery passed onto the EB list ?
Extensive, so attached here:-
http://www.brca.org/?q=content/homologation-procedure/1399
RogerM
18-04-2011, 06:53 PM
I think it's a matter of using sense and judgement here, yes the various potential risks involved with this sport are many and varied (you'd not think to make an insurance claim on the BRCA if you slipped on some wet astro turf as a rain storm and broke a bone would you for example).
When it comes to how we use our equipment I don't think you can go far wrong by following the guidelines in the manufactures documentation and that of the BRCA.
As for the question about lists for homologated equipment it's here
http://www.brca.org/?q=content/homologation-lists-2011-updates/1402
As for if LiPo sacks are of any use I have no idea, luckily I've never seen a LiPo go up, but if the BRCA say I need on then I need one!
SlowOne
18-04-2011, 06:53 PM
On a positive note ........
If the situation is such that the BRCA Insurance consider the individual has acted as an individual, and not as an R/C racer when buying the cells, then the individual should approach his household insurer re the Family Liabilities section of the policy and claim.
Make the 2 insurers fight it out between them.
Most likely outcome, they both say No, and then it ends up with http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.ukI think Jim has explained that one. Your BRCA status has nothing to do with your status for importing goods. If you import something from the EU, you are treated as an EU citizen able to take advantage of free trade across borders. If you import things from outside the EU you re charged relevant duties and taxes and are treated as the importer.
So if u buy a Ford from the usages that not made in Europe or sold in Europe. Even tho Ford will warrAnty cover it, I can inside of I'm liable for any accident?Not the same situation. Cars are covered by the Construction and USe Regulations. As well as being the importer (you pays the taxes and duties - see above) you also have to have Type Approval, or Single Type approval. Once you have that you can insure the car. As for warranty, that seems to be up to the manufacturer, of which Ford seem to be one of the better ones, along with Toyota, at honouring warranties for cars imported from the likes of America and Japan.
So after already ramming 5000mah into a known possible risky battery, decided to increase the amperage of the charge, and then leave it unobserved...
Words fail me.And me!! On which planet is ignoring every instruction and advice ever given on how to use these batteries been grounds for blaming anyone else?
Thanks to Jim for laying out the issues and clarifying our questions. Caveat emptor - buyer beware!!
Jim Spencer
18-04-2011, 06:58 PM
As a side note for lipo sack. Where is the wording or regulations defining what a lipo sack is? Because brca wording is very loose.
Re brca lipo clubs only have to comply to the brca general rules and do not have to adopt the eh list, as with any non brca sanctioned meeting such as oople invatational
The wording is straightforward for a reason, when we've enquired about having a LiPo sack made to a set fire retardant specification nobody wanted to know.
So it's dead simple:-
If a retailer is willing to sell it - and therefore their insurer is willing to let Product Liability insurance apply - then it's 'fit for purpose'.
In this case it's much simplier for the trade to make the call.
ianjoyner
19-04-2011, 09:33 AM
There's nobody to take the rap if it's faulty and the fault causes an Insurance claim, so it lands on your lap.
Really? I thought product liability applies to products that have been sold, in this case the product was never on sale, there's no one to take the rap in a product liability sense and that's it...
It's helpful of this thread to remind people that when they import something from outside the EU that they have no EU/UK product liability come back, but I've seen nothing to suggest that they themselves become responsible for product liability unless they actually put it on sale (for retail as a new product).
HarlowS
19-04-2011, 09:39 AM
This thread could go on for months, Just out of interest, what if you bought a 2nd hand lipo from a fellow racer who imported it ??:eh?: Who is liable then ?
jimmy
19-04-2011, 09:47 AM
I dread the day I have to put my laptop in a 'sac' at a race meeting just so I can report.
Just out of curiosity, do ALL LiPo cells need to be in a sack when being charged? Receiver packs, handset packs, starter boxes etc?
mattybucks
19-04-2011, 10:04 AM
I dread the day I have to put my laptop in a 'sac' at a race meeting just so I can report.
A bit like this, apparently the user had just typed www.rcracechat.com
c0sie
19-04-2011, 10:14 AM
Steve, the wording from the General Rules states: LiPo /LiFe drive batteries will be charged in a “LiPo sack” at all times.
I would presume that drive means to power the ESC etc, but PLEASE dont quote me on that...
I wouldnt want Rob Fitzgerald quoting me out on context on Raceshat again :wub
Just out of curiosity, do ALL LiPo cells need to be in a sack when being charged? Receiver packs, handset packs, starter boxes etc?
So, what makes any other LiPo cells safe to charge 'out of a sack'?
c0sie
19-04-2011, 10:33 AM
Dont know :)
Although there seem to be hundreds of "experts" coming out of the woodwork into this thread.....*tumbleweed*.....I would probably suggest emailing Paul Worsley and asking his advice before all others. That man knows his shizzle!
peetbee
19-04-2011, 10:34 AM
The Consumer Protection Act is clear that the importer is responsible for the product liability, however, it does include an exclusion from liability where:
the product was not supplied in the course of a business, for example, the donation of homemade toys for sale at the occasional church bazaar or sales by private individuals of second-hand goods;
(source - http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file22866.pdf)
This would imply that individuals involved in personal imports would not be liable when they subsequently sell the items on after use. It may even absolve them completely But I would take professional legal advice though!
As a side note, next time you moan about the cost of RC products in the UK, please bear in mind that distributors such as CML for example have to pay for Product Liability insurance, as the responsibility lies with the importers not the manufacturers (outside of the EU).
The Consumer Protection Act is clear........
the product was not supplied in the course of a business, for example, the donation of homemade toys for sale at the occasional church bazaar or sales by private individuals of second-hand goods;
What a Star post from a Star man for finding that one. :thumbsup:
It raises the issue as to whether the BRCA Insurer as the legal right in this incident to consider the individual as an importer as clearly it was purchased in the course of a hobby and not a business.
I do feel this needs to be clarified as the insurer will use this legal process in the future to recover their outlay.
c0sie
19-04-2011, 11:48 AM
If you want it clarified, email the BRCA and ask their advice :)
Better to contact them directly than hope someone important reads your post :)
If you want it clarified, email the BRCA and ask their advice :) I have
Better to contact them directly than hope someone important reads your post :) I only hope to publicise the need on here as I fear the day when every racer needs to keep his receipts in a safe simliar to the one where he now keeps his LiPo's :)
Jim Spencer
19-04-2011, 03:19 PM
Hi
Re last few posts.
Yes you're quite correct you are not liable if you sell a product on as secondhand goods.
Same as if you sell / purchase a car off somebodies drive as opposed to a sale / purchase via a dealer
Jim Spencer
19-04-2011, 03:30 PM
But
We're not on about the SALE of something by an individual as secondhand goods.
Were on about the PURCHASE of something as new goods and their then use.
Unless any of you are doing a bit of 'grey' importing that is?
The general consensus of opinion (we check this sort of thing you know..) is that the changes in the global market place have currently outstripped legislation and consumers (i.e. US) are getting caught out as in some cases it's very easy to be purchasing items from a location we're just not clear on.
Eventually the market, legislation and the route to market providers (i.e. your favourite online auction sites) will have to get this resolved and we'll be sorted.
But it hasn't happened yet.
In the meantime the BRCA will continue to give advice where we can, if you don't like it then ignore it if you like - but don't come running when it bites you on the bum.
However it's statistically much more likely to be something outside of model car racing that does this anyway, our market is very small (read - minute..) compared to most and generally the products are sold worldwide and comply with all the relevant tests anyway.
Just in the odd area the odd one doesn't and this incident was certainly that!
Liamprice25
21-04-2011, 02:32 PM
Hi everyone! After reading all about this incident and everyone else's thoughts. I think that everyone is missing the bigger picture. This guy who had this accident was probably in this sport for fun and was trying to keep competitive in the economies climate may only be able to afford lipos/parts etc from abroad and may I say the far east make some rather outstanding bits of kit. But back to the point, which is. He set out on a budget for fun but everything in and around the EU has become rediculisly expensive. I started this sport about 6 months ago and have almost given it up as it's stupid how much some of the parts costs. If it keeps going that way then more and more people are gonna buy imported goods.
It's only a hobby and supposed to be a fun day not about cost. Safety does and should come first but until the so called better companies drop their prices then expect more little incidents in the future.
Ok rant over:)
hashiriya
21-04-2011, 02:42 PM
I don't think blaming the prices on stuff in the EU or from more reputable brands isn't the solution to this situation.
I've always felt that RC racing is a bit like fashion. People will market the latest and greatest thing from a big name and then something similar will come out of many less well known names with claims such as "it comes out of the same factory" or "it's the same, just cheaper" If you believe it then pay less and get "the same", if you don't believe it pay more and get the "better" product.
Either way, the risk of Lipo fires exist no matter who made them and what label is on them. The laws that Exist in the EU try to protect as many people as possible but this costs some money along the line, if you try and avoid that to save money, maybe its worth thinking about what else you are also avoiding.
peetbee
21-04-2011, 02:55 PM
but until the so called better companies drop their prices then expect more little incidents in the future.
If you read my posts you would have seen the comment I put about importers/distributors having to pay for public liability insurance.
That cost has to be passed onto the customer somewhere, one of the reasons that buying from outside the EU is cheaper is that you are avoiding that cost, plus the import duties and VAT that the importers/distributors also have to pay.
As a follow up to my post above regarding the exemption from public liability, what Jim says appears to be very true that the importer (even as in individual) is not exempt, but if they subsequently sold the item on as used then they would be.
dodgydiy
21-04-2011, 10:47 PM
regarding lipo sacks and their safety, i dont own one yet, have been using an ammunition box for charging, it is fireproof but obviously is not permitted at brca meetings, surely the brca should allow more effective means of containing a possible fire . now why isnt balance charging compulsory too, that way individual cell voltages are controlled, surely that is more likely to avoid a fire than a sack is to contain one
SlowOne
23-04-2011, 06:28 AM
DCM, the LiPo sack recommendation is based on energy and risk. The drive batteries have more energy in them so should anything untoward happen, they can give rise to longer and more energetic incidents. From a risk perspective, there are more dedicated chargers around for receiver and Tx batteries so the availability for users to make an incorrect setting is less.
Dodgydiy - where does it say in BRCA guidelines than an ammunition box is not allowed? If you turned up at a 12th National with one of those it would be subject to inspection prior to use, but never thrown out unilaterally.
Most people transmitter and receiver pack chargers are for nimh's and nicads, not LiPo, so they will end up on a normal charger. Risk is not about how 'energetic' the reaction will be, but the perceived capability of a random event happening, thats my understanding of 'Risk'.
truggy lover
23-04-2011, 02:59 PM
just wonderin if this how the batteries turned up
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ry4iv4.jpg
with no connecters easy to short the pack out i would have thouht , bad idea if you ask me
coolcars782
23-04-2011, 03:17 PM
just wonderin if this how the batteries turned up
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ry4iv4.jpg
with no connecters easy to short the pack out i would have thouht , bad idea if you ask me
But they have been heatshrinked on the ends so they cant be accidently shorted, it would have to be forced to make the wires touched, which would then be there own fault..
mark christopher
23-04-2011, 03:53 PM
DCM, the LiPo sack recommendation is based on energy and risk. The drive batteries have more energy in them so should anything untoward happen, they can give rise to longer and more energetic incidents. From a risk perspective, there are more dedicated chargers around for receiver and Tx batteries so the availability for users to make an incorrect setting is less.
Dodgydiy - where does it say in BRCA guidelines than an ammunition box is not allowed? If you turned up at a 12th National with one of those it would be subject to inspection prior to use, but never thrown out unilaterally.
well i would have said since the rule clearly states "lipo sack" then an an ammunition box is not a "lipo sack" itf it was it would not be called a ammunition box!!!
Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson
23-04-2011, 04:02 PM
According to Wikipedia, and numerous other speciality websites,
Overcharging a Li-poly battery IS the only cause, of an explosion or fire.
mark christopher
23-04-2011, 05:32 PM
According to Wikipedia, and numerous other speciality websites,
Overcharging a Li-poly battery IS the only cause, of an explosion or fire.
dead short when fully charged or when punctured wil do it too
Shaun 'TheSheep' Atkinson
23-04-2011, 05:53 PM
dead short when fully charged or when punctured wil do it too
Yeah, obviously puncture will do it too :) forgot to mention that one Mark :blush:
I do like the other comment from earlier on in the thread though...
"Does this mean all race control, racers and any other laptops on site, need to be kept in a LiPo sack too"
Why didn't we have to charge the old batteries in a Bomb proof bag, because when they went pop, they really did go POP!! It was like fireing a shotgun, and one of those could have taken your head off!!
The most dangerous thing about LiPo is the fumes, My brother put a drive pin through his lipo while in his car...It didn't "Explode" and it didn't give off a ball of flames! ... It simply smoked alot. We could still get the battery out of the car quite easily with common sense and to a safer place of track where we could put sand on the battery and let it cool down.
RogerM
23-04-2011, 06:28 PM
"Does this mean all race control, racers and any other laptops on site, need to be kept in a LiPo sack too"
No because they have relatively low charge fed to them by the power supplies, are voltage managed every moment they are connected and although not impossible to dead short you'd have to be trying and if you managed it you get all you deserved IMHO.
Racers do abuse stuff, stupid charging to "make that run" when they should have just been more organised and put them on in time .... that sort of thing. You only have to look at some peoples wiring and a short is just waiting to happen with all the carbon and aluminium on the current cars.
I need to go back and re-read the original post but wasn't there some reference there to the standard of the wiring? May be wrong of course, sorry if I am.
It is a just matter of common sense and then risk management. There is a risk to everything, breathing is a risk if done incorrectly!
Having been associated with the model trade, and it's relatively low mark ups compared to most high street retailers, for a number of years now I am always dismayed when people try to justify buying stuff from abroad as the "UK is too expensive" then get upset when something happens and they have limited comeback via the UK / European importers.
This country, along with much of the EU, is an expensive place to live and play but that is because of all the costs involved in trading here (and some "interesting" taxation obviously.
Sorry if the above sounds a little ratty, it's not aimed at anybody directly just my observations and opinions. I'd personally rather go without or buy second hand than import something personally.
SlowOne
23-04-2011, 06:57 PM
well i would have said since the rule clearly states "lipo sack" then an an ammunition box is not a "lipo sack" itf it was it would not be called a ammunition box!!!That may be the way you do it in your Section, Mark. My interest is in safety, and not the precision of the Rules - where safety is concerned, I want to be roughly right, and not precisely wrong.
It is impossible to prevent the LiPo burning, so the focus of the sack is on containing the shower of hot particles that spread over the adjacent area. None of the sacks claim to be fireproof as far as I am aware. What they do is restrict the spread of hot debris. As a steel box might do the same, I would give the driver the courtesy of looking at it, and making an assessment. Simples... ;)
mark christopher
23-04-2011, 07:37 PM
i dont have a section?
im just ponting out the brca wording says "lipo sack" not a suitable container!
SlowOne
23-04-2011, 07:39 PM
Good for you, well done! :rolleyes:
Gazza
25-04-2011, 06:46 PM
Definition of a LiPo sack is . . . .
Tesco bag & with black felt pen write the words " LiPo sack on it ?" :D
Its in a LiPo sack :thumbsup:
ammo box is a good idea far better IMHO
dodgydiy
25-04-2011, 09:46 PM
unless the lipo is fully or overcharged i doubt puncturing it would set it on fire, have seen one from a plane virtually torn in half and all it did was smoke a bit. i have actually shot an old pack that had puffed up to see what the reaction would be, it just sat there looking sad and downhearted at being sent to its salt water grave. all this again comes down to the same old thing, abuse. if its treated sensibly it wont cause any problem. i still say that balance charging is far more important than it is given credit, each cell is individually limited and correctly charged, the only way you are going to kill the pack is either by charging at too high a rate, which should only damage the cells not fire them up as they are limited to the voltage by the balance circuitry which will stop the charge before things go too far, or death by failure of the charger. if you are balance charging any good charger will stop you charging if you set the voltage wrong as well, too high a voltage is your most likely way to ignite the pack, other than short circuit which to be honest is more likely to happen in storage or in the car.
i like the idea of the felt pen and writing lipo sack, stick some paper and bubble wrap on the outside of the box and you wouldnt know any difference....bar size of course lol
TheReferee
25-04-2011, 09:56 PM
extract from the rules
25.6 LiPo/LiFe drive batteries must be charged in a ‘Lipo sack’ at all times.
LiPo sack is defined as a receptacle designed for the purpose of charging LiPo/LiFe batteries and of a suitable construction as to contain a LiPo/LiFe fire.
an "ammo box" is a receptacle which is capable of containing a lipo fire, therefore its allowed, you could argue that it wasn't designed for the purpose in the strictest definition of the rule. however it is assumed a certain degree of common sense is out there. clearly a tesco bag would struggle to comply with both the design and containment parts of the rule.
Gazza
25-04-2011, 10:49 PM
OK then an asda one . . . . LOL only kidding :lol:
Yea I thought an old ammo box is ok if it holds Ammo and is safe so a lipo is bound to be ok :thumbsup:
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