Looking for more steering.

[KJR]

Hi,

I'm new to buggy racing, normally run 12th but have now run my x6-squared three times and am constantly looking for steering. I ran the car on grass today with yellow mini pins all round. The car was the best it has been but I still feel it could be doing with more steering particularly mid corner and on power. I'm not sure if it is a lack of grip at the front or too much at the rear that is not allowing the car to rotate.

I've attached a copy of my current setup and would appreciate any hints on where to go next.

Cheers

Kenneth

[nicVEGAchildJR]

Move shocks in on top and bottom and go to b hole on hubs front

[Darren Boyle]

Kenneth, I cannot open your set up file from where I am at present, but how much weight are you running in the car and where is it placed?

[Big E]

Raise the inner front link another 2 washers will help.

Also not sure what your rear ride height is but you want it 23mm from the chassis to the floor. It's hard to look at the rear arms/shafts because neither is level at the correct height hence the measurement.

Also you could move the weight out from under you lipos and get some more in the very front.

E.

[KJR]

Hi,

There is 100g behind the servo and 60 grams under the speedo but none under the lipo. I've just measured the ride height of the car and the rear is 22.5 mm and the front at 23, although I'm not quite sure where to take the front measurement from. Tried to go from back of the front skidplate.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Kenneth

[warped]

If you're running mini PINS on grass then that is the problem.

You need to run mini SPIKEs.

Your intitial post says minipins but the setup sheet says minispikes.

[KJR]

Sorry the mini pins is a typo it should have read mini spikes.

[/tobys]

Try a rear roll bar and stiffer front springs (as with AE green front springs you could be losing grip through body roll; stiffer should help put the weight onto the tyres).

HTH :thumbsup:

[super__dan]

I can't read setup sheet from where I am either, but my usual question to anyone atthis point is how is your servo saver setup? It MUST be the HD spring at the least and preferably glued up else it slips like a .................. slippy thing

[janus_77]

I can't read setup sheet from where I am either, but my usual question to anyone atthis point is how is your servo saver setup? It MUST be the HD spring at the least and preferably glued up else it slips like a .................. slippy thing

Dan posting on a thread about more steering :confused:, mankind is doomed :p

anyway:


front: thinner oil ( 30/32,5 wt) silver springs, shock pos 2-I (add limiters to compensate droop)
Raise rear to arms level
rear: move shock to 2-I, rear rollcenter move to hole B
add slipperweight
25 caster on rollcenter 1-A ( 2 washers )
( dont do all changes at once, try step by step )

[YoungChazz]

Mankind is indeed doomed if Dan is posting here. I'm canceling all remaining doctors' appointments and resigning myself to the end...

On the other hand, Dan is usually right (That's why we love him so.) and he's right on here. The first thing any pro driver does with AE steering is to glue the servo saver tight. If you have not done that, it will push like a wheel barrow.

[janus_77]

On the other hand, Dan is usually right (That's why we love him so.) and he's right on here.

Don't get me wrong, Dan is a nice bloke and the answer is true. But I'm starting to worry when Captain Understeer himself is responding on a "more steering" topic :lol:

[YoungChazz]

Me too. I'm half way to the death bed already and it's all Super Dan's fault.

[KJR]

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried stiffer front springs, started on blue then went to silver but the car did run better on the green springs. It's the standard servo saver on the car so I'll look at that but I'm a bit nervous about locking it up when I'm a novice at offroad. I'm an experienced racer and can get a car round a track without hitting things but I'm not used to going up in the air yet !!

I have a roll bar kit as well so I can try this and the 25 deg caster blocks. I'm hoping to run the car at the weekend again so I'll let you know

Cheers

Kenneth

[/tobys]

Tightening the servo saver right up (or better still, gluing it up) will make a big difference I'm sure. The car should feel much more responsive and positive when you have. If you have a decent metal geared servo and retain the plastic servo horn, the horn should hopefully go before the servo gears do - at least thats what I'm counting on with my Savox 1258.

[super__dan]

Lol, just seen your replies. The servo saver can cost you steering and it's unpredictable, it can actually sometimes give initial understeer followed by oversteer in the middle of the corner when it stops 'saving' and adds on the lock.

Honestly for the cost of the bits try it glued, see if its the night and day difference it usually is and if you don't like it put it back to standard.

[sparrow.2]

Glue the servo saver! Utterly pointless trying not to. The steering will usually break before anything else.

[passy]

Definitely glue the servo saver. I spent weeks messing with setup looking for extra steering until I glued the servo saver. After gluing I had to revert all my other setups as I had so much steering.

With 12 months of running I broke the plastic servo horn twice, however the servo was fine. The two breakages happened on the same part of the track involving a very large jump and a piece of concrete.

Make sure you have the end points set correctly on your steering. I have mine so the servo is just straining slightly when the wheels are fully locked across.

[KJR]

Hi,

I'll glue the servo saver up first before making any other changes. I'm running a savox 1258 so the servo should be strong enough.

Cheers

Kenneth

[super__dan]

Hi,

I'll glue the servo saver up first before making any other changes. I'm running a savox 1258 so the servo should be strong enough.

Cheers

Kenneth

That what I've been running for nearly a year now without issues. I also have alloy replacement bits for the servo saver and a beefy(ish) servo horn.

The irony of this for me is that I don't like a lot of actual steering but I do want it to be precise.

[Southwell]

Check you have full lock as well, B4 steering can be a bit tricky to get right. I had to make some small adjustments on the rack to get full lock both ways.
Try harder springs, silver back, blue front, also #1 pistons in the back used to be the standard, not sure about now?

I would move the front steering arm to the middle, add 4 washers to the front inner camber mount in the tower and move the rear hub to short.
It would also be beneficial to work out your weight split on some scales.

I just do it with one scale. Make sure you can get a completely level surface to the scales, measure front to back, overall and each corner. All results should equal the overall weight.

So for example.

1100 rear weight / 1700 total weight * 100 = 64.7%

you can also do this to work out your corner weight split so you can get the balance correct.

Hope this helps

Ian

[matdodd]

The irony of this for me is that I don't like a lot of actual steering but I do want it to be precise.

Thats an understatement mate;)
Staggers on a 4wd at the last national :cry:

[/tobys]

@KJR

Did you get your steering issues sorted? I've seen that you've posted some pics of your X6 on the "Show us your..." thread.

[KJR]

Hi,

It's really difficult to say if the steering is better or not at the moment as the race I was at on sunday was wet, very wet and not a lot of grip. The only steering change I made was to glue the servo saver. The car still did push a lot but that could purely have been down to the lack of grip.

I was actually doing all I could to get some forward drive as I just couldn't get the power down. So I went to silver rear springs, moved the rear arms and hubs forwards and changed to the 4 degree rear toe. Ran green minispikes all round. The car was a lot more secure with that. Would still break traction if I hit the throttle too hard but that was to be expected. It did mean I could steer the car a little on throttle if needed as well.

Hopefully will get to run the car in the dry and with more grip this weekend and I'll post again as to any steering improvement I've gained.

Unfortunately the car doesn't look like the pictures I posted any longer, it's got a significant collection of mud and cut grass on it !!!

Cheers

Kenneth

[The_doctor]

try running the BK front hub mod this seems to give the car more steering
just mill down the front hubs by 2mm and place a 2mm washer behind it also flip the steering rack over and remove the front hole!!!!
we all run this on our cars over here and its glued to the track!!!:thumbsup:
we also run a 55mm front wing !!!:woot::woot:

[YoungChazz]

What happened to that left rear tire, Doc???

[caneye]

that's not 4wd front tires is it?
:eh?:

[KJR]

Thought I would post an update to my steering issues. Managed to run the car again at the weekend on a dry mostly grass track. I've changed the following.

Glued the servo saver,
Fitted a carbon fibre shock tower and stainless steel mounts that add 8g more to the front.
fitted Ghea no 2 tapered pistons.
added a washer to the front camber link inner mount.
fitted a silver associated rear roll bar.
gold rear springs
DMS carbon fibre 2 hole anti squat shim.
ride height 24mm front and rear.

I was running yellow minispikes rear and green fronts. Error on the green fronts in that I took the wrong ones out of my box.

Car was a lot lot better. I even managed to knock 10% off my dual rate on the transmitter. I think that it could still do with a bit more mid corner steering and still seems to roll a lot. Also fitted a HPI flux 8.5 motor instead of the 10.5 with timing and this was miles better. The track is really bumpy but the car rode the bumps really well.

I managed to beat someone who was a lap ahead of me at the last meeting so a good improvement.

Still to try moving the front camber link to the outer hole. Another washer on the inner link and I've also noticed the steering arms on the steering rack are mounted on the rearmost hole which seems to be different to the standard setup so will move them forwards.

Beginning to enjoy this car now and like how it reacts when I make changes to it.

[/tobys]

Adding more washers under the front camber link should give you more steering through the corner and stiffer front springs will stop it rolling about and give a more precise front end (unless the grip is very low).

Are you running trailing or inline steering blocks? The rear holes on the steering rack are normally for the inline blocks - if you are running the kit standard trailing, use the front holes on the steering rack all the time! The further the holes forward, the more steering you should get. Don't forget to check your bumpsteer when you make this change - 2 washers under the outside ballstud is about right.

If you haven't got the E-speed hangers, give them a whirl - they will help with the overall feel of steering and "rotation" as well.

Don't forget to check out the setups on xfactoryrc.com and petitrc too.

:thumbsup:

[KJR]

I'm running the trailing blocks. The steering arm mounts are a bit that I missed. I bought the car second hand and had to replace a lot of bits and removed the setup on it but didn't spot that one.

The good thing is that I now have a permanent outdoor track nearby me so I can use that to effectively test any changes that I've made.

Thanks for the help

[markwilliamson2001]

Looking at your car in the "Show Your X6" thread, you NEEEED to cut your gurney down on your rear wing BIG TIME. I run near zero gurney, and have 'enough' steering, even with my servo saver 'unglued'

Hope this helps.

Mark

[KJR]

I've cut the gurney down to half way. It was so windy at the track on sunday that I was having real problems keeping the front of the car down heading onto a jump into the wind. Trimming the wing down helped a lot. At one point I misjudged my approach to the jump and got the front wheels up just as big gust hit and the car acted like a kite and lifted clean off the track :woot:

[YoungChazz]

For those who say, "Aero is no big deal," you've just given the answer. In windy conditions, you must run less Gurney. And in all conditions, the bigger the Gurney, the less steering -- you are tilting the car backwards and throwing more weight on the rear, even at our (relatively) low speeds.

On the other hand, too much traction is rarely the issue. Thus, instead of lowering the rear traction to balance the car, we raise the front traction with an air dam or wing.

I don't see the F1 boys trying to lower the aero effects...

[The_doctor]

What happened to that left rear tire, Doc???


i ran the tyres on the same way for too long !
as you come off the straight at our track theirs a fast sweeper and the right hand side takes a lot of load!!!! i didnt change the tyres over for 3 heats- i change left to right every heat but not this day!!:woot:

and no the front tyres are J Concept barcodes 2wd (orange)!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

they r the only tyres ill run in 2wd just diff compounds!!!!!

[super__dan]

Two interesting points for me.

Wing - My default setup is zero rear guerney AND a front wing. If running the big jump at RHR this becomes a big front wing with a kind of guerney on top and rear wing cut a few mm's below the vertical edge fold on the back. If you've just gone to 1/2 guerney I suggest you take a whole lot more out of it.

E speed hangers - never come off my car, 90% time run high but sometimes low, give more exit steering and a better overall balance for me on UK tracks.

Dan

[KJR]

Quick update. Moved the front camber link to the outside hole on the hub at the weekend and this found me a lot more mid corner steering.

Car feels like it is close to being hooked up now so I'll keep working away with it.

[YoungChazz]

In the late 60s/early 70s I was crew chief on an SCCA National car. I love watching a car on the track, identifying how to make it faster, doing the adjustment, and seeing the result. KJ, what you are doing is much of the reason I'm in this thing. Have fun!

[Chippy96]

Does anyone know what length turnbuckle to use with the "E Speed" hangers?-Ive got my new machine and in the spares were a new pair of hangers and obviously you need some shorter arms to suit.....cheers PC.

[andy-aj]

Does anyone know what length turnbuckle to use with the "E Speed" hangers?-Ive got my new machine and in the spares were a new pair of hangers and obviously you need some shorter arms to suit.....cheers PC.


40mm long I believe.